成人论坛

Re. the shredding (or not) of documents. I live in a block of flats and beneath my bedroom window is a row of large rubbish bins. I am frequently woken during the night by the rustlings of a regular visitor who carefully sifts through piles of plastic bags collecting sheets of paper that I assume bear the names and details of my fellow occupants who have failed to shred.

I have many muslim friends formerly of Afghanistan, now resident in the UK. They all comment on the news about the the hijab / veil publicity. They all want to know whether these veiled fellow citizens would like to live in Afghanistan?? THEY DON'T... Wonder why...

For the first tme in 44 years of my stay in Britain, I have been verbally abused in public in the the town where I was an NHS consultant for nearly 3 decades before I retired.

The irony is that the culprit was himself an immigrant from Eastern Europe.

Thank you 成人论坛 and other media for facilitating this abuse through yopur obsession with " Islamc" extremism.

I鈥檝e said it before and will say it again 鈥� the veil wearing thing is a POLITICAL STATEMENT and as such will generate a political response. I can do no worse than to quote a 成人论坛 report today from a Muslim Arab country, 鈥淭he Tunisian authorities have launched a campaign against the Islamic veil worn by some women to cover their hair. Police are applying with renewed vigour a decree dating back to 1981 which prohibits women from wearing Islamic headscarves in public places. In recent days, senior officials have hit out at what they describe as sectarian dress worn by people who use religion to hide political aims." Our Muslim community may not agree with Tunisia but they need to accept the point made.
On the proposed mosque 鈥� better be worried. The 鈥渉ighly conservative religious backers in Saudi Arabia.鈥� is the same source that funds Bin Laden and Al Queda.

Yes we should worry about the proposed Mosque.
The money apparently is from the same source that funds Islamic terrorists. We do not want even more centres in the UK where they can train bombers.
In one of the 成人论坛 news interviews with an Afghan male, he stated that they and the west could never be friends, because they regard us as infidels. Another stated that Islam will not rest until it is the worldwide religion.
Hardly a move toward integration.
Regarding the wearing of the veil, it is not a religious statement, rather two fingers raised to the UK, which some of them hate, if that's the case let them go to a Muslim country. We are a Christian country and will remain so.

I think the super Mosque is coming at a time when all things Muslim is creating a real stirring.

The fact the majority of Muslims are indeed liberal is often lost and this needs to be in the mainstream news, not free press for a conservative backed Mosque which is not needed in East London. This is coverage given to people who ill deserve it.

This is news that the backward in the muslim community will be encouraged by, it makes them look like they are a force. Over time they will not be of course.

There is so much tolerance towards Islam today in Britian, largely because majority of English people who were predominantly christian are now atheist.

muslim muslim mosque muslim... what's this islamophobic frenzy in Newsnight?

A mosque that only an idea in a few people's heads... suspects that haven't been convicted of anything and as such are still innocent but in Gavin's paranoid mind are planning terrorist attacks this very moment...

Why can't the media stop fear mongering over hypothetical potential possibilities and just keep the facts?

Gavin Esler: "These two people [under control orders] who have absconded could blow something up tomorrow!"

Well, maybe they could. On the other hand, they're people who have not been found guilty of anything: they're not convicted felons. Had evidence against them been put before a court they *might* have been acquitted, in which case they would have been at liberty anyway. Do we *know* they're guilty? No, and in the absence of a guilty verdict the presumption is they're innocent.

I am overwhelmed to hear about the plans to build a Super Mosque in East London. This would be unique to Britian as a beacon of religious tolerance where we can all be proud of.

Thank you Ann widdicomb for speaking up for us, Moslems are offended by anything that is not of them and I am sick of hearing them complaining. We are not allowed to do our own thing in our own country anymore it is scary. If the Mosque is built I want to move out, they are trying to take over and run the country and they go about killing becausue of a cartoon and one mans single comment they are a danger to the world. And may the world wake up to the way they are taking over the Nations - are we blind - do we have an identity of our own Britain what is it?

I am a muslim and the last 2 weeks has been a nightmare. My mum does not wear the veil and she dislikes it. She prefers her pakistani dress. I went to Pakistan no one there wore the veil and many pakistanis want to become western. I live in Wakefield, the next town to Dewsbury and the largest mosque there belongs to whabi muslims who get their funding from Saudi. This mosque does not reprsents Sunni muslims from pakistan. Sunni and Wahbis are very different. Can you stop muslim bashing. I have White english friend, we live very similar lives. The only difference is that I eat halal food, believe in Islam but everything is similar. I even go to the pub just to socialize and play pool. The poloticians and the media should stop muslim bashing and I am fed up of hearing the same news about the veil. In Wakefield hardly anybody wears the veil.

Madonna adoption

Madonna can easily afford to support a development programme in the village\community where baby David will grow up. This high-profile adoption is the worst kind of tokenism. Other celebreties who have adopted have done so relatively quietly. Either they were childless (like Angelina Jolie) or could add more to established, domestic families (like the Spoelbergs. Modonna offers neither of these typical patterns to the baby. That leaves the presumption of an emotional knee-jerk which may rebound on the child or of a media opportunity with no long-term benefits for baby David.

Hooray for Anne Widdicombe !! She is getting down to the real issues - which are the outcomes - and that we need the debate. Going about veiled from head to foot simply is "not British" and certainly not in today's world - whichever way you cut it, we just don't like it. And why should we? I think it is a symbol in many people's eyes of a link with or at least an expression of extremism. A diverse multicultural society by defintion has no room for extremism - especially in today's world - and it is incredibly insensitive of veil-wearers not to realise and acknowledge this, and act accordingly.

I am fed up of being told that we need to understand the cultural, religious and personal reasoning for keeping women behind a veil. Being a woman, the veil makes me uneasy. Is it showing us the future for all women when the muslims will be in majority (50-60 years from now with current immigration/birthrate?)? Europeans are soon the ones to be integrated in a muslim society. We are to get 25% of places in muslims schools although I doubt there will be many takers. Churches are being turned into play centres, houses, nightclubs as we no longer believe. With numbers of mosques increasing, is it time even for us old atheists to become churchgoers?

Looks a great building, and its wonderful idea. By the way I lived next to a Mosque, and... nothing!? On the subject of acceptable attire I think Newsnight reporters should be MADE to wear ties(again).

I live in Dewsbury and I am Muslim and I have to say I do find the Markaz mosque a bit foreboding to a non-muslim. I don't see the point of this London mosque at all either - we already have far too many mosques in this country and many of them have hardly any followers attending prayer. A mosque (or any other religious worhsip place) that is built and not used is actually worse than not having it in the first place. I have to agree with some of the non-muslims on that note, it is more of a sign / symbol than anything else and frankly should not get past the council planning stage. If it is going to be anything then let it be a shared venue where you can have a Church area, a Mosque area, A Hindu area, etc. Far better for untiing a community - THINK ABOUT IT !

As for this Veil issue - what is it with a countty full of people that one minute talk about freedom of expression and freedom of speech but apparently find a woman who chooses to wear a complete dress from head to toe eitehr offensive or intimidating. I dont like my wife wearing it, I prefer here with a basic headscarf and the majority of asian girls / women I know dont wear a full Hijab but I respect the views of the ones that do.
I mean I find people with tattoos or 'skinheads' intimidating and offensive - can we not have a law against that too. What about the girls that go out with really short skirts or low top dresses - they must offend some people, surely that can't be allowed either. the way I see it you either havr a country that is on the side of freedom of expression or you have a police / 'Stalin' state where the government tells you what to wear and how to behave.
Also dont forget people who have facial or other body piercings - cant have that either, too offensive to many people out there.

As for the Mirror's poll for tomorrow about 98% people against the veil - I call that rubbish. Frankly do I trust a newspaper run by a person who controls the mass media on both sides of the atlantic and can change public view with one headline. The answer is 'no'! Who were these 98%?

Also I notice how apparently a few bombers and radicals suddenly turn every one aginst Islam as a religion. Did that happen in the IRA days with Irish people?

Oh well, roll on the next Muslim / Islam story

An orphaned kid abandoned by his father to an orphanage because he cant look after him since mother died.A life in an orphanage or a chance to live in a rich life.Which would you choose?Yes there are thousands of other kids in maybe worse situations than David but for him this door has opened. Why is anyone working so hard to ruin it because its Madonna?If in her heart she wants to try it why make it hard for her?The Malawian authorities wanting to come to check out Madonnas residence to see if it is suitable? How suitable is a black child growing in a white family?
There is nothing suitable about that but if someone feels the courage to try it why not support them to do it.There is so much cruelty and jealousy in peoples hearts its frightening! It wont all be rosy for this kid when he comes to self awareness but maybe he will bless Madonna and Guy and all there family because God knows everything

Interesting program tonight ref UK fledging British Muslim debate. Good to see Newsnight giving the airtime.

MEGA MOSQUE?

The UK has a 2% Muslim Population, but a secretive Sunni sect 'Tablighi Jamaat' [1] within a minority faith is proposing largest mosque in Europe [2] when the UK does not have largest proportion of Muslims in Europe [3]

Instead of people promising to do this & that if they get their way, its far more logical & reasonable to judge their actions & behaviour on a historical basis i.e. what is the track record of Sunni sect Tablighi Jamaat' esp any notable influences/impact:

- 2006 - Abroad: "Other known al-Qaeda operatives have previously been Tabligh disciples, including six men from Lackawanna, New York, who admitted attending religious training in Pakistan before going to an al-Qaeda camp over the Afghan border" [4]

- 2006 - Abroad: "Intelligence agencies in the United States, France and Germany are monitoring the movements of Tabligh鈥檚 band of travelling preachers. Two were recently expelled from Bavaria" [4]

- 2006 - UK - "7of the 23 suspects under arrest on suspicion of involvement in the plot to blow up transatlantic airliners may have participated in Tablighi events" [5]

- 2005 - UK - "The organisation has already been linked to 2 of the July 7 suicide bombers who attended a Tablighi mosque at the organisation's headquarters in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire" [5]

- 2001 - UK - "The jailed shoe bomber Richard Reid is also known to have attended Tablighi meetings" [5]

Well hardly encouraging is it :(

Q. should we give a secretive Sunni sect within a minority Muslim non indigenous religion still relatively new to the UK any assistance to build largest religious centre in Europe? - NO

Q. should we give a secretive Sunni sect within a minority Muslim non indigenous religion still relatively new to the UK any assistance to ghettoise enmasse part of London? - NO

As quoted in The Guardian "One man who knows six of the suspects arrested last week leaned against the wall, the City of London glowing behind his shoulders, and adjusted his cap. "Do you see now?" he said - Tablighi is not the problem. It is the solution. It is another world in here, completely different from the world outside." [5]

Mega Mosque?- its not simply a planning matter - its about how we should be building social cohesion not reinforcing social division via a Mega Mosque.

btw - 'Tablighi Jamaat' have 4,000 capacity mosque in Dewsbury & makes up of 90% of the inhabitants of the Savile Town area of Dewsbury [6] where their largest mosque is (largest purpose built in Europe in 1990). As a consequence it can be argued that this development has been behind BNP voting & electoral gains [7a] [7b] [7c] in this area. A reaction to the impact of the ghettoisation due to the religious & lifestyle practices around the mosque with 30% of Dewsbury population being Muslim [7c]

Therefore, based on the impact to the area of by the European HQ of 'Tablighi Jamaat' in Europe since 鈥�.

Q. do we really want to risk the same scale of ghettoisation in London? (1/3 of the population of London of one minority faith congregating in one area) - NO

Q. do we really want more people within the mainstream society turning to far right for answers? (no thanks)

Q. is British mainstream society entitled to open the debate to decide how it wants its society to develop - YES

Q. is the government & media belatedly catching on to long fermenting general unrest about societal issues in the UK - YES

Ref Mega Mosque - Judge 'Tablighi Jamaat' on its actions to date not its future promises.

To help with that argument, an article from Richard Donkin of the Financial Times who wrote about Dewsubury & Savile Town area 16 years ago [8]

With such a self ghettoisation record, can 'Tablighi Jamaat' be trusted with stewardship of the largest mosque in Europe for the practice of faith amongst what has become the most volatile of religions in Europe at present.

Meantime - from the other corner - interesting set of exchanges ref TJ [9]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7a]
[7b]
[7c]
[8]
[9[

Ref Naeem Khalid #16 & Atiq #22

Reads like you鈥檙e from the moderate majority of British Muslims.

(Outside of home or work, the pub is most definitely a key social aspect of British Society & need not involve alcohol :)

Please don't confuse genuine well overdue need for debate about societal issues in the UK with the current focus on Muslims.

Its more than reasonable for people within UK 98 % of non Muslims to hold to account differences between faiths & the cultural practices of minorities on the nation, esp those from those communities who were allowed to settle here over last 30+ years, whose communities have swelled from tens of thousands to 1.6+ million (now 2% of the UK population is Muslim).

We are all having to labour under the effects of multiculturalism, imposed by on the population by Liberal Left clique to benefit minorities, but at the ultimate cost to all of us.

Putting the issue of domestic Islamic terrorism aside for one moment, its not 'Islam bashing' per say, rather Britain's Muslims communities are the most in need of reform & integration in our society, a minority have made the effort, but the majority have not - but you rarely hear any dissenting voices within British Muslims communities about themselves - which is not credible. Although you do on occasion [1]

Ref domestic terrorism (shoe bombing attempt, July bombings, several cases in court/under investigation etc) believe at its root, was the failure of true integration over decades, not by individuals, but by whole communities.

If its not a failure of integration, why are such vitriol opinions being held within British Muslims communities [2a] [2b]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2a]
[2b]

Atiq at #22

I have a tattoo, how does that offend you?

Your total ignorance and disregard for the customs of the British in how they conduct their business affairs offends me.
The issue with the veil was to do with the customs of Jack Straw, not the rights of Muslim women to wear the veil, but like every issue under the sun, it gets turned around to try and consolidate the opinion of victimisation towards the Muslim community.

As for our freedoms, our freedoms are based on mutual respect and context, two concepts that seem totally alien to the Muslim community, as respect is never compromised, and context never refined, as your examples testify to.

Its not just the bombers that have suddenly turned people against Islam. Its the mass protests of condemnation from the Muslim community, men and women alike marching on Downing Street bearing placards praising the bombers, telling us all that Allah will burn our souls and have his revenge on the west, and on one occassion this country didnt even have anything to do with one incident that caused a mass protest, but yet we were all still included in the condemnation.

The Muslim community have used the right to protest more than any other social group(other social groups who have just as much to protest about politically and socially), but do I see the mass demonstration from the Muslim community, from men and women alike, bearing placards condemning the souls of the suicide bombers, telling them and other potential bombers that they dont have entry to the Kingdom of Heaven? No!
Just condemnation from a few community leaders who always finish their sentances with "but ....".

As for your example about the stalin state, you do realise that if you replace the word government for religion this is how the general public views Islam. Although the public accept and tolerate this religion, it is seen as very inclusive and contradicts alot of our liberal concepts, in fact the only difference between communism and Islam is ones ideology is dictated to by a president and the other ideology is dictated to by a prophet.

Do I actually offend you by having a tattoo, if your not joking, please tell me why.

Repeatedly on tonight鈥檚 programme Gavin Esler and others conflated race with religion.

Race isn鈥檛 religion.

Race is something over which we have no volition while religion is a set of beliefs that adults are free to adopt or not. In other words, one has choice over whether or not to adopt one set of beliefs over another, or none at all, whereas this is not the case with race. While it is clearly irrational and rightly illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, it is and must be right that we can challenge, criticize, even lampoon religious beliefs. How can a set of beliefs be exempted from scrutiny in the way that race should?

Moreover, whether due to time or not, Gavin Elser failed to follow up on the one interesting point raised by Anne Widdecombe regarding protests outside places of worship. This, rather than the false assumption that criticizing religion equates to racism, goes to the heart of the matte and a question that needs to be answered. Failure to do so simply cedes ground to extremists, as we have seen.

Gavin

In the discussion on the 'breaking of taboos' I felt you missed an opportunity. You got halfway to suggesting that the backlash was against demands for 'special' treatment and then you let that Widdecombe woman rant about christianity.

The pure and simple reason why people are so obsessed with Islam is because so many muslims feel the need to ram their religion down our throats. They don't necessarily do it through preaching but constantly crying foul at legitimate free expression in the name of their religion seems an attempt to force others to live their lives with 'Islamic' rules in mind.

The issue most people have is not about Islam per se. The Christians and others are just as bad when they get vocal, it's just that recently it's been Muslims making the most noise.

Frankly as an Atheist I find elements of all the major religions highly offensive, and that's ignoring all the holier than thou moral posturing and hypocrisy we hear from religous leaders. Strangely none of these religious groups feel compelled to tone down their speech on their beliefs. At the same time however they do expect others to avoid certain subjects.

It's the presumed double-standard that has upset people, even if they struggle to articulate it. My non-religious beliefs, feelings and sensitivities are as legitimate as anyone else's.

We have a simple choice, we can either all learn to accept, and ignore if we choose, criticism and comment or we can all maintain complete silence as there will always be someone who finds what you say offensive.

However tiring it is to see yet another 'Muslim' story on the news I think it is about time that the debate started. All I ask is that we hear first from an integrated, moderate person whose religion is not his or her only form of identity. All we seem to get are these men from religious groups with 'Muslim' in their titles, surely by definition someone who puts his religion before other things.

Whether we like it or not London has, for the last fifteen years, been the haven of some of the world's nastiest extremists. Extremists who often were expelled for good reason from their native countries.

I feel great sympathy for the Doctor above, trying to get on with his life in his chosen land being somehow associated with this lunatic fringe that so fascinates the British media and public. No more Captain Hook! Ignore them and they might just go away.

I share Newsnight鈥檚 bemusement about why ministers have suddenly broken cover on issues of race and religion. What I do know is that (contrary to what your guest said) it is not having the debate, but refusing to have it, that plays into the hands of white extremists. For many years, the left has tried to ignore the immense antagonism caused among moderate, working-class white people by the perceived special treatment of 鈥� and refusal to integrate by 鈥� Muslims. Frustrated by the fact that politicians will not discuss their grievances, some become embittered and eventually turn to ultra-right parties.

Race relations have been the 鈥榚lephant in the room鈥� of British politics. Freedom of speech doesn鈥檛 mean gratuitously antagonising people but, as George Orwell wrote, it does sometimes mean telling them what they don鈥檛 want to hear. That is the freedom which has been missing.

I can confirm that the comments made by Naeem Khalid in post#16 are representative of progressive attitudes displayed by most young British Muslims, especially of those in Wakefield.

In Wakefield, despite having to put up with anti-Muslim sentiment and second-generation 'anti-pakistani' racism from some of the schoolkids (and also these schoolkids parents), and despite seeing an 400% increase in serious physical attacks on Wakefield's Muslim men after the 7/7 bombings from thugs and violent racists (hardly any of which were covered by National or International press at the time) Wakefield's Muslim Community who are among the oldest of our communities who fled violence in Kashmir in the 40s and 50s to work in our Mills and build a new life here.

It's heartwarming to hear Naeem speak out. No doubt he went to the local state school, played out with friends of all backgrounds, and even invited some to his birthday parties.

Listen to what Naeem says about Tabligh Jamaat in Dewsbury, because they are making it seem as though the veil is integral to beiing Muslim, and of course, it's only something that is forced on women in Saudi, and nothing to do with Muslim-observance.

Leaders from Wakefield's Muslim Community (Such as Mr.Ace Taxis) have ploughed money collected by charity and donated from local businesses from businessmen of any faith/no faith, into a Community centre which is open to all races and creeds and their attempts to get communities together regardless of their faith are well known throughout the City.

Naeem is quite right to be worried about the pressures which the Tabligh Jamaat are placing on the Muslim communities of nearby Dewsbury.

I would welcome Newsnight making contrasting reports and showing a successful sub-communities integration and the respect which they receive (Wakefield) compared with the insultating effect of Tabligh Jamaat who are exploiting the fears of British-born Muslims and increasing their isolatioin since 9/11.

I think the government has pushed the issue of the veil into the media to hide it's short coming's.
If some one wears or does not wear a veil makes no difference to me but my locel hospital like (whipps cross) possibly closing will make more of a difference.

Hi Jay @27

No I dont find tattoos offensive, in fact I think some are very artistic and cool. No offence intended.

I was just trying to state that it should be the right of every person to dress how they please.
There are certain situations where I feel that the muslim veil is not appropriate - for example in schools with very young children I think it may confuse or even scare them to some degree and I think its very important for young children to see the full facial features.
However in general public I see no difference to someone wearing that as someone else wearing any other item of clothing.

I do see both sides of the argument which is where I cannot fully be for or against the Veil - I know it sounds a bit like sitting on a fence but I see no reason for me to dictate to others if that's what they want to.
I also have never been truly sure that the veil is 'Islamic' thing or just a country specific thing (Afghanistan for example).

Hi Philippa - @30

Yes I agree debates should contain normal people from the Muslim faith rather than the preachers and clerics and 'holier than thou' people we seem to have on TV.
I've said for a long time that I dont understand where these people seem to crawl out from and a lot of them say they speak for the majority of Muslims in the UK. I don't remember ever having any votes - I recognise my local MP as my voice in Parliament and that's about it.

I have a huge problem with a lot of mosques anyway because as far as I can work out most of them are used as either a tax shelter or a source of perceived power in the community. There is far too much politics in Religion these days and vice versa. In fact as someone else above says its like the Religion itself is a giant political party.

The reason why you won't get a lot of 'moderate' muslims on TV is because most of them just want to get on with their lives rather than get embroiled in the debate. Unfortunately then that's where we end up with people who may have any sort of hidden agenda doing the talking for us.

The problem about Integration in to the UK is largely due to language issues. Most people come to the UK to provide for their families back abroad and are thrown in to any job - normally labour work in some factory. Typically they will work in that factory 5/6 days a week and they will earn money and beacuse it's probably an asian firm they will speak their original language and never pick up English. This then translates in to not picking up other social integration skills (saying hello to your neighbours, working for an english firm where you may go out and socialise and their is a mutual exchange of information about both cultures). So when this is missed you end up with ghetto like places liek Savile Town in Dewsbury. I deliberately moved to the outskirts to get away from that feeling so my kids get brought up in a mixed environment - and thankfully at school my daughter does have a mixture of friends from different backgrounds.

Other people for example send their children to Islamic Madressahs and schools which is fine for basic teaching but there is no mix of culture.

My parents lack of understanding of the culture always lead to arguments when I was at University when I mentionned I'd been to a pub or to a nightclub. They don't realise you can have fun in those places without alcohol.
My growing up in the UK since I was 5 and actually being one of of only 3 Asian schoolkids in the lcoal school in Maidstone, Kent meant I was forced to integrate earlier than most. I was even in a choir and we sang Christmas Carols at the local school.

However we moved to Dewsbury when I was 11 and all my schools have been mixed races and sexes since and so has everywhere i have worked.

Basically as long as people get to mix in the community and make the effort I don't see any issues. But there has to be give and take on both sides and someone has to make an effort. Unfortunately it probably wouldn't be the Asians / Muslims because of their 'backwards' culture due to the leevl of generations in a family. However I do see that radically changing over the next decade or so when the older generations die off and a newer more integrated, western mixed of individual. Role on those days! Perhaps some normality could be restored to the country.

Sorry for the length of this post - I thought I was writing a novel !

"There But For Fortune"?

Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt, but... anyone spare a thought for Krishna Maharaj and Clive Stafford-Smith & Govenor Jeb Bush?

It seems there's been decades of muddle around this case and it may be the wrong man risks being condemned to death here. Govenor Jeb Bush will have to decide. Will he be able to see his way clear to granting clemency?

Just a thought...

"Seems like only yesterday I left my mind behind..."

Not my words but something i subcribe to, would that we had the politicians to speak this openly about these important matters:

Three Cheers For Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia,
as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting
with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crack down. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical
clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state
and its laws were made by parliament.
"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then
Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching
that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic
law, that is false.
If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia
law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a
better option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship
could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told
reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off".
"Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values
and understand them, well then they can basically clear off,"he said.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy
agency's monitoring the nation's mosques. AMERICA, Britain and Canada...ARE YOU LISTENING?

Quote: IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of
Australians.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began
complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life
by coming to Australia.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently
some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multi cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and
our national identity.
As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of
men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other
language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!
Most Australians believe in God.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political push but a fact because Christian men and women, on
Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home,
Because God is part of our culture.
We will accept your beliefs and will not question why, all we ask is that you accept ours and live in
harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.
If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider
a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did
things where you came from.
By all means keep your culture but do not force it on others.
This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to
enjoy all this.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian
beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian
freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".
If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here.
So accept the country YOU accepted. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.
I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get
back to the complainers, lets all try, please. PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE, PERHAPS WE
CAN CREATE A GROUND SWELL AND SEND OUR POLITICIANS THE MESSAGE THAT THE VAST
MAJORITY OF US BELIEVE AS THE AUSSIES DO.........

--

I have peviously posted on the subject of the veil and what I perceive as Islamaphobia before.

Many of the posters appear to be prejudiced against Muslims with one even calling for a backlash. I believe that many if not all would say the same about Black people if given half a chance, many people show complete ignorance of the subject. Some do seem to have a more indepth knowledge but worryingly they also seem to be very opposed to the religious freedom of Muslims.

I watched last nights show and thought you gave a broad view of the issue and covered many of the issues that have been part of the debate on the site.

There are still people on this site posting comments such as "I'm fed up with all these Muslims whining all the time" that is not the case, most Muslims seem to be trying to keep their heads down, it is the press and politicians that whine about Muslims all the time.

Bruce Dickensons remarks that apparently the Mosque will be funded by the same source as the one that funds bombers, this is bogus and a smear, he offers no evidence to support this assertion. I believe this statement is designed to inflame prejudice against Muslims as I can find no evidence whatsoever for this assertion anywhere.

Ray Allen then states that it is okay to oppress Muslims as they do in Tunisia, a Muslim country, however Tunisia is a one party dictatorship and oppresses Muslims as Islam is a source of opposition to the Dictatorship.

People allways have a go at Iran. Yes it is an oppressive regime and a virtual dictatorship, yet the Islamic regime came about as a direct result of American foriegn policy. In 1958, the Americans instigated a coup which overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and replaced it with a person imprisoned after the second world war for being a Nazi sympathiser. This was the Shah of a Iran who became the dictator in exchange for allowing the Americans controll of Iran's oil.

Iran has more democracy and freedom than Saudi Arabia a regime closely linked to both Al Queda and George Bush. There is no evidence that I've seen to show links between the Saudi Royalty and Tablighi Jamaat which your commentator hinted at. There are linlks between the Saudi Royal family, Al Queda and the Madrassess in Pakistan.

The Super Mosque did sound a good idea but then concerns were made about the group behind the plan. From my research into Tablighi Jamaat most commentators have stressed it is a peacefull sect and while it is apolitical actually has many mainstream politicians as it's supporters. Tablighi Jamaat see themselves as missionaries, originally founded to "teach" Hindu converts who practised a form of Islam that had elements of Hinduism, the "true" Islam.

They do not appear to have members as such, any Muslims can go to their mosques. Muslim opponents of Tablighi Jamaat accuse them of being Whabi's the Religion of Saudi Arabia and Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda. If they want to build a large building that should be for them and the planning authorities to decide. Personally I would like to see such a mosque shared by all sections of the Muslim community, not just one branch, however it would be like Catholics and Protestents sharing a Cathedral, a nice idea but impractical, who would decide who's service would be held and when. It would also possibly be impractical for theological reasons.

There are a number of views about Tablighi Jamaat, the Right Wing, pro War, Middle East Quaterly condemns them as being recruiters for terrorism, yet appears to offer no concrete evidence other than to say Al Queda could secretly visit their Mosques and try to recruit. All other commentators state they are apolitical and peaceful missionary group. This is according to Graham Fuller of the CIA, and other Experts on Islam. Other Muslim groups seem to be opposed to them for theological reasons and the self styled American organisation calling themselves The Islamic Academy derides them for not being political, and for not having the principle of Jihad at all. They appear to only be interseted in preaching to Muslims.

Tablighi Jamaat have openly stated their opposision to Al Queda.

They are a very large organisiona and have only been around for 75 years. Some Islamic critics have accused their apolitical, non violent stance as playing into the hands of the British Empire when they ruled India.

The only real critisism is that those wishing to recruit for Al Queda etc., use there Mosques to try to identify possible converts, but the same recruiters can be active in any area of the community. I am not aware of any involvement by Tablighi Jamaat in Beeston.

They appear to be akin to the fundamentalist Christian Evangalists who dominate the Bible Belt in the US.

Tablighi Jamaat have critics in the Muslim world and in simplistic terms their phillosophy appears to be a none violent mixture of Whabism and Sunnism.

If the Mosque is built and the Sect allow none Muslims into it then that would appear to be a departure from their usual way of operating, as they usually only operate in the Muslim community.

Vikingar, majorities cannot hold minotities to account. We live in a democracy we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You have been far more vitriolic towards Mulims in other posts. I cannot understand why you seem so obsessed with Muslims. Muslims are only reacting to continual attacks on them not the other way around. Minority groups are protected by the same laws that protect everyone. The race relations legislation was brought in to combat racism, which was rife and while it dissapeared for a while has resurged recently as a political tool, used predominatly to spread discontent by the right wing press. You state "we all have to labour under the effects of multicultuism in action" yet give no actual examples of how we labour under it. Do you think we should all just be Chritians or whatever belief system you deem good? Do you think you should tell Muslims how they should practice their religion?

Jay I think he was having a go at the image of young men who look like right wing thugs and not actually anyone with a skin head or a tatoo. It is clear that you have only contempt for Muslims and base your entire argument on stereotypes. Taking part in protests is democracy in action.

As I've already said on previous postings Islam is as diverse as Chritianity and there are rivalries between different groups. The Whabi roots of the sect are often sited by oponents, while more extreme groups decry them for believing in peaceful struggle rather than violent struggle. It appears they cannot win. There a number of prominent Pakistani and Bangladeshi politicians who are supporters of Tablighi Jamaat. They are a mainstream organisation.

As an Atheist I would love to see an end to all religions, however I do not have any right to force my philosophy on others. We live in a democracy and as such the freedom of thought of others is paramount. Banning and persecuting religions only seems to make people more militant and more determined. Tolerence is the answer.

I feel that BA are wrong for banning someone for wearing a cross. Are thet frightened it may offend Satanists or Vampires? Attacks on the Beliefs of anyone Muslim, Chritian, Hindu etc., are to me signs of religeous intolerence. How is stopping a person from practising their beliefs meant to protect other people who wish to practice theirs. It puts us all in danger from the thought police.

The right wing posters keep going on about the Ku Klux Klan and the sacks they wear on their heads as I've said they wear them to protect their identity when commiting acts of murder and intimidation in the name of racial supremacy.

While many, maybe most people would prefer the tiny minority of Muslim Women not to wear a veil, it is a matter of choice. I would prefer people not to wear suits as I feel it creates an us and them attitude and creates a barrier for communicating. I would prefer Judges and Law Lords not to wear Robes and Wigs, not only do they look ridiculous but this forms a barrier to communication. I would like to see the end of the Monarchy, they are unapproachable, aloof and culturally very different from everyone.

The Queen is the head of the Church of England, we do not live in a secular society. Turkey has banned some Islamic dress in order to curry favour with the west and make itself appear more European than Middle Eastern. This has been the case in Turkey since the 1920's.

I personaly feel that all religions are wrong but I'm sure most religious people feel the same about Atheists. We should live and let live. If the veil is incompatible with British life then I am sure that as time goes by many of the people who wear them would stop wearing them of their own accord. At the moment if I was a Muslim woman I would consider wearing a veil just as a political statement. Most Muslims do not agree with women having to wear the veil. Ask your Muslim friends if you have any.

I do not see Muslims refusing to intergrate, if anything it is the mainly None Muslim population that refuse to intergrate with them. There is a great deal of ignorance about Muslims, this is played up to by right wing white extremists. As previously stated it is poverty that keeps people in Ghetto's not religious beliefs.

If we are banning clothing etc we find offensive, here's my list:
Fur Coats.
Obese people wearing tops that show their midriffs.
Clothes that allow Builders Bum Syndrome.
Anyone wearing Ermine.
Crowns.
Jimmy Choo shoes,
Prada Versache and all the other overpriced clothing for people with too much money.
The stupid outfit Black Rod wears.
Suits.
Old School ties.
Eton Uniforms.
Clothing made by slave/child labour.
18 Carrat gold belts.
Sandles with Socks.

Before anyone says anything I do not wish to ban any of these, I merely state that I find these thing offensive to the eye and some can be intimidating or make me feel excluded. I just wanted to give food for thought.

On other points, Madonas baby would probably have a great quality of life with her, but I can't help thinking, maybe it would have been better for Madona to financially support the childs father so they could stay together.

Should the baby be in a Malwian orphanage or living with Madona? I think the answer is living with Madona. There may also be a good legal argument for this as well, however the law should not be bent just because someone is rich and famous, although in Madona's case I think she has shown publicly she is a decent parent. I do not know the ruling of the courts but would hope they have considered the childs best intrests, before Madona's. If it was Michael Jackson I personally would be worried.

The man imprisoned in the Florida Jail due to Corruption and a lack of Justice is no surprise. Just look at their record of rigging elections and political control of the Judicial system. I don't think Jeb Bush knows the meaning of Justice. I would be interested to know of the business and political contacts of the Jamaican man who may have commited the murder. I feel very sorry for the man wrongly imprisoned, he must feel desperate. It's a pity that (B)liars special relationship only works one way or he could intervene.

I am not surprised that 98% of Daily Express readers think the veil should be banned. It is a paper that in my opinion promotes racism and intolerence. In the thirties it supported Hitler and was against Jews fleeing Nazi persecution. It appears to still have a similar editorial policy. I would expect Daily Express readers to vote in favour of a ban, but at 98% it smacks of vote rigging, could people with a political axe to grind have bombarded it with calls? These telephone polls are very misleading as they are not random.

Finally on the Taboo's surrounding religous and cultural critism. I think it is very hard and possibly dangerous to critisise the religious or cultural practices of groups that you know little of. It is easier for Christians to critisise Christians and Muslims to critisise Muslims than for Christians to critisise Muslims and vice versa as often the critisisms come from ignorance,prudice or a feeling of self rightousness rather than knowledge. I have pulled up Muslims for making anti-Jewish comments and have been supported by Muslims when I have done so.

In the present political climate it often appears that all Muslims are being demonised it would be better for politicians to have a united front with the Muslim community and support them rather than constantly critise them just for political expediency. People kept saying on Newsnight that this has only been happening since 7/7, it actually started before 9/11 but got worse then. The vast majority of Muslims are opposed to terrorism and most do not like the idea of women wearing veils. The veil issue is now one of civil liberties. If the Government passed a law making it illegal for a woman to be forced to wear a veil I could support that, but not a law making it illegal to wear a veil. Maybe once the present political climate changes and Muslims stop being condemned as Terrorists then who knows maybe we can have a debate about veils, but my stance would likely be the same, freedom of choice.

Peace, Love and Equality

To Anarchosurfer@39 -

One word - Bravo

Brilliantly stated - perhaps indeed food for thought.

Emmy wrote: "Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt, but... anyone spare a thought for Krishna Maharaj and Clive Stafford-Smith & Govenor Jeb Bush? It seems there's been decades of muddle around this case and it may be the wrong man risks being condemned to death here. Govenor Jeb Bush will have to decide. Will he be able to see his way clear to granting clemency?"

This was the second UK television expose of the plight this man has been in for so long, and yet the UK government seems to have done nothing effective to help. Is this another instance where the they don't want to say anything for fear of losing influence? What is Jeb Bush's record on prisoners? Is it as bad as his brother's was in Texas? What is the full background of the man most likely to have been the killer? We should hear much more about it, soon.

Muhammad Abdullah wrote: "I am overwhelmed to hear about the plans to build a Super Mosque in East London. This would be unique to Britian as a beacon of religious tolerance where we can all be proud of."

How so? None of the existing tens of thousands of huge religious buildings in this country seem in any way to be beacons of religious tolerance, more assertions of the pride of their builders and worshippers. How do you see this proposed Super Mosque being different?

Orr, ex-punks, bless 'em.

Striving for a new identity.

Its o.k, you dont have to preach Ideals to be a good person, unless you want to be seen as more liberally developed then the next man, then thats up to you, but just as the mainstream society let you be a punk in the seventies, then I'm sure they will let you portray yourself as been liberally superior.

Orr, bless!

Nice one Atiq and Anarchosurfer

What I love most about you two, is you represent the majority of people I've met in my life, unlike that vikingar nonse

Jolly good it is too that nearly every damn one of us is like you

I sincerely hope that the new neonazi agenda of our government chokes and trips on its own vitriol same as he is

This is in response to ararchosufer's well schooled but nevertheless non-educated, rambling, pc enriched horse manure. You are certainly entitled to your opinion(feelings) you are not entilted to your own facts. But as an American I'm about to give you a few facts.

I suggest your read up on the koran, they(muslims) take it at it's word, and follow it accordingly which means very literaly.
Want to really understand what they are saying? I highly suggest Robert Spencer's Book, The Truth about Mohamad and the World's most Intolerant Religion. You might get a clue.
Now for just a few facts.
1. Can you tell me how many terrorist acts have been perpetrated in the name of islam since 1979?? clue, it's in the thousands! source you say? ok try counter-terrorist blog, jihadwatch.com or MEMRI

2.In islam you have 3 choices Convert, Pay jizah(tax), or be put to the sword, their words, not mine.
This is non-negociable according to the koran, religious edicts and so-called holy imams.

3.Ask yourself? Why is it that when we question their modivations, beliefs or their own words, we are called islamaphobic? and then they riot, torch, kill, loot and rape to tell us how wrong we are? and who are we to question them? In a Democracy we the people are able to question, inquire and engauge in healthy robust debate without bending to the pc crowd. Too many people have fought and died for these beliefs to just let the pc crowd derride them out respect for their feelings.
3. Actions speak louder than words,judge them by what they do, not by what they say. In islam it is permisable to lie to the infidels but not to each other,always remember that, and I dare anyone to prove me wrong.
These are just a few facts and figures which no matter how you cut or slice it, is true!
If I hurt a few folks feelings, I guess you can always get some self-esteem classes to help you find that spine.
G Lauti USA

Ray Scott (aka Hillsideboy) wrote: "H Parminter (comment 19) asks 'Is it time for us old atheists to become churchgoers?'

"My suggestion is for the Church of England to trial a (say) once-a-month service in its almost empty churches and crumbling cathedrals, with special services devoted entirely to Praise Mother Earth or Praise our Planet: not a mention of God, JC, or any other ancient myth. I'm sure many of us non-believers would welcome the opportunity to sing our praises and hopes for our ailing planet. It would certainly bring us together in more of a common and urgent cause than the squabblings and deaths produced by rival religions."

Nice suggestion. The non-believing might even then be regarded as a "community" that should be consulted by government and agencies. But it won't happen. Most of us have more sense than to mix with the extremists that run groups that supposedly represent the "non-believer", so it won't get organised.

But Ms Parminter was I think suggesting that the pure numbers of attendees at christian churches need boosting to counter mosque attendances. That would surely be a regrettable polarisation. And I for one don't see it being an advance for any "leader" who promotes magical thinking to be able to claim increased followings.

On the simple issue of non-believers having some use of our architectural heritage of religious buildings, despite being a life-long non-believer, many places of worship, as structures, inspire me to contemplation, as does some historical music associated with them, and it pains me to see them decline. However, a long heritage of techniques, stretching way back beyond the current faiths, has been exploited to conjure those effects on our brains. Often those techniques and traditions were ruthlessly stolen, their previous guardians usually slaughtered. However pious or thoughtful the current guardians of Britain's heritage of such buildings, they have not forgotten the creeds that drove their predecessors, and will never let them be used as you suggest, for gatherings with the symbols of the religion removed.

It might not be as reliably convenient as a solidly built church, temple or mosque, nor often conducive to gatherings, but our planet does provide many natural opportunities still for contemplation. Groves of trees, gardens, watersides, coastlines, mountains, even simply the sky. For thousands of years people maintained shrines that were simply a focal point in such places, muttered, or sang praise, donated to those who maintained them. There was a spirit, a god or godess for everything, everywhere. The religions that demand obedience to one, solitary god (albeit, in the weird case of christianity a "single trinity") either claimed to incorporate the appreciation or fears they represented, or cast them as ungodly. But the popularity of parks and gardens, of rambling, of country walks, the delight at the seasons, indicate they didn't entirely succeed.

Nice one Atiq and Anarchosurfer

What I love most about you two, is you represent the majority of people I've met in my life, unlike that vikingar nonse

Jolly good it is too that nearly every damn one of us is like you

I sincerely hope that the new neonazi agenda of our government chokes and trips on its own vitriol same as he is

Hey G Lauti

Try selectively reading the bible some time, you'll find all kinds of nasty stuff in there too

What's your point ?

Lovely post Jenny

I also subscribe to the uplifting, redeeming and contemplative power of nature...who needs religious leaders when you have all that

I am a very old woman and my mother was a suffragette. Not a very active one, and she wasn't force-fed or held to ridicule by her nearest and dearest, but she did her little bit of shouting. And both my grandmothers were born before the Married Women's Property Act. When I see a full frontal veil I feel so sorry for the woman hidden or hiding behind it. Even if she says it's her own choice, why does she rather than her brother have to make such a choice? And I feel a deep fear that my female civil rights might one day be snatched from me by a society that has let the pendulum swing back to official male bullying of the female, enshrined in our "way of life" as a sop to someone's religion. Religion throughout the last 2,000 years has been a male technique for bullying women. Veils are more than a piece of cloth, they are a symbol of the obliteration of women.

G Lauti from the USA, I really don't know what to say, you slander a whole religion based on a book someone else wrote, scary! The word Islam means peace.

1.How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by non Muslims since 1979? How many people have been murdered by people proffessing to be Christians since 1979? I live in the UK where Christian terrorists plant bombs and carry out murders and kidnappings. Christian nations have been responsible for the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people since 1979, from the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, to the Ethnic Cleansing in Yugoslavia, to the American Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Don't forget all the weapons manufactured in the west, they contribute to the death toll.

Oh and then there's the wars that Western supposedly Christian Governments have supported. America supported Iraq when it Attacked Iran and continued to support it even after Saddam used Chemical weapons. Who were these Americans? they were Ronald Reagan, George Bush Snr, Donald Rumsfeld and at least half the present administration. They supported and helped train the Mujahadeen, the Taliban and Al Queda. George Bush is a close friend of the Bin Laden Family. I believe it was the Americans who helped start the Afghan Civil war, that led to Soviet intervention.

In Iran, in 1958, the CIA helped overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Socialist Government and installed the Shah. He had been imprisoned after the Second World War for being a Nazi Sympathiser. The CIA helped the Shah eliminate his opponents. Eventually the only opposition left was what people call Religious Fundamentalists. They re-took Iran and kicked out the American Oil Company's the Shah allowed in as part of his deal with the USA. This caused a lot of upset in America, leading them to Support Iraq in invading Iran. Two Million Died and most people don't know it happened. In Tunisia there is a one party state that has erradicated all opposition and now the only opposition are Islamic groups. We can go further back than 1979 how about the Soviet Union, Russians are Christian's, yet countless millions were murdered by them. What about Nazi Germany, they weren't Muslims were they. No Christians.

Please do not think I am having a go at Christians I am merely pointing out the Hypocricy in G Lauti's vitriolic post which try's to make out Muslims are some how more evil than anyone else. Like Islam, Christianity is a peaceful religion, unfortunatly not all who proffess to follow those religions are peaceful. They are often used to excuse wars, murders, and some of the worst excess of humanity. It is the Millions of ordinary Muslim's and Christians that allways suffer.

2. No Muslim has ever asked me to convert, threatened me with a fine or tried to kill me with a sword, none seem to own any swords around here. Can they use a kitchen knife or must it be a sword? What part of the Quran is it in?

3.As I've said I have had to pull up a Muslim for making comments about Jews and I was even supported by Muslims when I did it. Your vitriolic posting illustates my argument that Muslims are under attack all the time and are constantly having to justify themselves. They have a history going back over 1,400 years, most live in countries who's civilisation goes back thousands of years. Sure, they've had their wars and Empires but for sheer destruction and death toll they have a long way to go before they catch up to the allegedly Christian nations, the Two World Wars alone must put the Christian Nations in the lead.

What am I meant to do when I get my spine, start a Crusade? I take it you are White Supremasist, maybe you're in the haven't got a K(l)u Klux Klan.

Modern day Iraq was the birth place of Agriculture and the worlds oldest civilisations. Muslims constructed the first Universities in Europe. I don't see what right we have to twist and slander their religion, and stir up hatered against them. How would you like it if they did that with your religion? If you believe they twisted or slandered you religion, how did it make you feel?

I'm an Atheist and find it funny I'm defending religion, but I feel we all have the right to our own beliefs, "whatever gets you through the night" as the saying goes. I live and work with Muslims they are very diverse and come from a multitude of backgrounds and I like them, they are the same as everyone else when you take the time to talk to them.

3.(we call it 4 in the UK)I do judge people by what they do. Your actions are clear, they are designed to stir up hatered against Muslims. You seem to think you are superior to Muslims yet act in a way you accuse them of behaving. All the Muslims I know are not like you describe at all. Also the last quote is a definate lie, You'll be quoting the protocols of the Elders of Zion next, a forged document designed to stir up hatred against Jews for political means.

All religious books are interpreted differently by different people. The current debate about the veil is a good example, different Muslims have different interpretations of the Quran. Christians have warred over the interpretation of the Bible on hundreds of occassions.

J Psuedo, there's is nothing wrong with difference. We don't all want to be the same and think the same, what a boring world that would be. Without change their can be no progress. Your second to last paragraph does not make sense.

Jay you think I'm a good guy, thank you I just speak the truth. I've got my own identity. No one let me be anything when I was a punk. Society tried to stop us. I was a minor part of a group that pushed the boundaries of society. I don't try to portray myself as anything, what you see is what you get with me.

The Australian more of the same old Muslim bashing, quoting Politicians does not legitamise your argument. Oh yeah and you forget you are all immigrants who stole the land from the Aborigonies. You condemn others for percieved intollerence when it is you that is intollerent. I find it funny when one immigrant has a go at others for also being immigrants or being descended from immigrants just because they are not White Christians. If Muslim's do complain, with people like the Racist Ausie about who can blame them. I hope people read your ramblings to see the kind of people behind the anti Muslim attacks. I take it when you're not raving about Muslims you go on about Asians or Aborigionies or anyone none English. I have news for you the name Kelly is not English but Irish, people persecuted by the English because of their ethnicity and religion. You seem rather confused.

I See you are a White supremasist, you cannot be a Christian as Jesus preached Tolerence and Understanding. Didn't he say "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "let him without sin cast the first stone." I doubt if he would agree with your racist statements and rantings. You seem somewhat Hysterical. Did Hitler write the speech for you. Christian principles never founded Australia it's founders were poor people criminalised for being poor then shipped out from Britain to colonise Australia, hardly Christian Principles. From your attitude they never took any Christian values with them. The only whiner appears to be you.

What must Muslims and others think about the Christian nations when they read statements like Mr Kelly's.

Peace, Love and Unity.

Anarchosurfer

Seen as though you claim that nobody allowed you to be a punk in the 1970's, could you tell me how many other societies of the world the Punk movement would have been allowed to express themselves in, including all the paraphenalia and anti-establishment actions and statements that this movement entailed.

As for the pushing boundries, I personally think the punk movement pushed boundries for the sake of pushing boundries, and not for the need to push boundries. A generation frustrated that they had just missed out on the real social revolutions of the sixties(unless you decided to burn your bra), and bored with the established mainstream lifestyle.
A movement born out of frustrated jealousy and frustrated boredom.

If you take the music away, which quite frankly wasnt there in the first place, and the imaginative attire used to express a non-conformative identity, what exactly did this movement achieve that hadnt already been done before?

You say you speak the truth yet you cant even acknowledge the fact that mainstream society allowed you your identity in the 1970's simply through tolerance. They may of disliked you and disagreed with you, but they tolerated you by not putting a bullet in your head. How many societies in the world do you think would have put a bullet in your head for expressing yourself in such a manner?

If I was you, I'd answer the first approach to the same question, may loose count with the second.

Ref anarchosurfer #40

"vikingar, majorities cannot hold minotities to account. We live in a democracy we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs. You have been far more vitriolic towards Mulims in other posts. I cannot understand why you seem so obsessed with Muslims. Muslims are only reacting to continual attacks on them not the other way around"

Define 'reacting'? domestic terrorism justified by twisted interpretation of non indigenous religion, by people from non indigenous communities - its far more than 'reacting' - it鈥檚 a direct challenge to the state & nation & societies values, law & customs.

Suggest you actually read about the views of people across British Muslim Communities, your 'defence' & inaccurate summation of the situation & is countered by their own views [1a] [1b]

Presume you have been on various STOP THE campaigns, perhaps you should start one called STOP THE DENIAL.

My desire is to focus on the biggest threat to social cohesion we face in the UK.

When substantial parts of 1.6 million people start living parallel lives in physical ghettoised & cultural enclaves, that is neither good for them & esp not mainstream society.

We are not obliged to stand by & do nothing to overt threats from Islamic Terrorism & threats to our societal cohesion through Islamic fundamentalism & radicalisation.

When opinions and beliefs counter national, regional, global key custom, values & law - we have every right to intervene.

This whole issue began in 1960/70s when the influx of foreign nationals began in scale. Many of those from this historical influx are adapting & integrating (e.g. Indian communities) but not so Muslim communities - why?

Why have too many in Muslim communities been busy building ghettos since arrival 60s through to the 70s, 80s, 90s - before current Islamic issues even came on the scene [2]

Domestic terrorism is testimony to the failure of Muslim integration as are their enclaves & ghettos. Which is also evidence to the utter failure of the discredited 'right on' fantasy that was multiculturalism (along side liberal lefts other failed polices on society, healthy, education etc).

But why did all of this happen? how come that UK is facing this cultural impasse?

ANSWER - the liberal left prevented an open & honest debate in pursuit of its multi agendas (never forgetting them). It rightly championed many rights issues (to counter threats & enable opportunity) but ended up unable to constructively criticise the same communities (definable by race/religion) which it sought to protect.

In lieu of open & honest discussion, the liberal left & left sought to highjack the topic of culture, society, race & religion, arrogantly thinking only they where able to deal with these complex issues - WHOLLY WRONG

Whose right & whose wrong?
- illiberal intelligentsia clique
- non integrated Muslim communities (2% of population)
- mainstream British society (98% of population)

FYI - mainstream British society, political parties, other groups & media etc are NOT LOOKING or LISTENING to liberal left for solutions. These dated class war dinosaurs are out of the equation esp as they remain in denial, let alone the fact that they are RESPONSIBLE for the impasse we face, as many have commented on [3a] [3b] [3c]

btw - are you a signed up member of the Liberal Left or an Islamic fundamentalist masquerading as such?

vikingar

SOURCES:
[1a]
[1b]
[2]
[3a]
[3b]
[3c]

Hi Vikingar@55

I quote from your paragraph "This whole issue began in 1960/70s when the influx of foreign nationals began in scale. Many of those from this historical influx are adapting & integrating (e.g. Indian communities) but not so Muslim communities - why?"

You seem to think that Indian is a religion as is Muslim.

Would it surpise you to know that Indian is a race made up of many religions including Christian, Hindu, Sihk and surprise surprise also Muslim.

You seem to be confused about religion and race.

Muslim / Islam is a religion that is made up of many races - Pakistani, Indian, Saudi and even causasians from Ameica, UK, rest of Europe and shockingly others in the world inclduing somee Chinese, African, etc.

Works just the same as Christianity which has people of different looks and of different races

Albeit it could have been a simple mistake on your part but it is that type of conufusion about race vs religion (ie anyone who looks middle eastern must be a muslim) that led to so so many Sikhs, Hindus and other even non-religious people being attacked in the USA after 9/11 and here in the UK after 7/7.

Ref Atiq #56

"You seem to think that Indian is a religion as is Muslim. ...... Albeit it could have been a simple mistake on your part but it is that type of conufusion about race vs religion"

No mistake, it was a deliberate pairing.

Depending on definitions

'Race' may dictate/define a culture [1]

'Religion' may dictate/define a culture.

What we have in the UK are issues of culture, how individuals & groups interact, attitude, behaviours, shared values & customs etc.

For some a national identify (history, traditions ) & associated shared norms to that society may be the biggest influencing factor, for others it may be the influence, adherance & rote of religion (speaking as a lapsed Catholic well aware of potential for influence).

I also always use the term Muslim Communities rather than singular Muslim Community, given the variety of cultural practice & background - African, Asian, Far East, Middle East etc of people who practice that faith.

Given you highlight the Indian influx, acknowledging their variety of faiths, for example I have always found Indians (regardless of faith) significantly more integrated into mainstream British Society rather than Muslim Pakistanis - why?

Ref example of the British Asians (Indian variety) what is influencing their willingness to adapt & change, their cultural influences from historical identity/race or religious influences.

Its rather self evident that in the UK, too many in Britain Muslim Communities, are far too inward looking & not only look to align their lives by adherence to their religion but expect mainstream society to meet any/all of their increasing expectations & extend their adherences into the wider society *

* issues of civil & criminal law, banking/finance, education, places of worship, dress, behaviour, foreign policy - these expectations are being set from religious perspective not from any other credible source.

The UK is traditionally & still is a Christian society, which has strong record of accommodation , but not to the extent that our society of 98% non Muslims, have to indulge any/all behavioural & cultural practices from within 2% of its Muslim population (with only 30-40 year sizable presence in this country) esp when such are not always positive **

** repression of women, ghettoised & enclave traits, extremism, radicalisation, terrorism

Reform of Britains Muslims communities & greater true levels of intergration & assimilation with mainstream host society were always needed, way before the issues of domestic terrorism rose from these communities. It was not addressed because of the failings of multicutluralism. So now we have having to deal with everything at once.

As I have asked before #26, in respect of the relationship between British Muslims communities & mainstream host society if its not a failure of integration, why are such vitriol opinions being held within British Muslims communities, let alone being responsible for domestic terrorism (actual, planned, support for) [2a] [2b]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2a]
[2b]

I did not see Newsnight on Monday which made reference to tablighi jamaat, but what i can assume from what is being written is that people are making judgements without actually having being there.

I have visited Dewsbury Markaz and i can assure you that what is being witten is far from the truth.

It promotes :
- harmony within communities of different backgrounds.

- promotes good character, lack of which is why we have no harmony in this world.

- It has NEVER encouraged violence, but rather the opposite, promotes peace.

Its main goal is to ensure EVERY single person regardless of of race, till the last day , can aquire everlasting success i.e PARADISE.

Vikingar, you appear to be obsessed with turning people against Muslims. All your links show is that there are a wide range of opinions on all sides. They show there is now a lot of misunderstanding and suspicion, something you appear to be eager to encourage.

Hatered and misunderstanding allways lead to wars and murder. It appears that many posters are eager to stir up hatered.

Vikingar just because there are divisions between within communities does not make it right. You give a one sided account and seem to be eager to paint Muslims in a bad light. Yes there are Muslims, Al Queda that want to kill people but there are British people who want to kill people, They are the BNP, NF and other white supremasist groups. Your links show that the Majority of people want to live together in peace.

What do you want, WAR or PEACE?

Are you another White Supremasist like the Ausie and the American racist. You appear to have only one goal, to stir up hatred between Muslims and Non Muslims, why.

You have already made it clear that you are very right wing. Muslims have been in the UK for much longer than 30-40 years. They have been coming to the UK for centuries. There have been settled Muslim communities since before the Second World War.

The far right will use every trick in the book to spread hatered and divide communities. Remember Hitler showed that White Supremacy was wrong and that Racial and Religious intolerence leads to mass murder and Genocide.

I know plenty of Muslims, like everyone else they all think differently. You appear to have a two dimensional view of the world and have a need to pigeonhole people into us and them, the world is not like that.

Remember it was the CIA that helped to set up and train Al Queda. the vast majority of Al Queda's victims are Muslims.

Most of your comments could be said of lots of groups especially white supremasists. You generalise a lot and offer poor evidence. You appear as happy to attack people for there race as for their culture.

Should Welsh people be able to speak Welsh when they live in Britain, an English speaking country.

Your statement about repression of women, ghettoised & enclave traits, extremism, radicalisation, terrorism
can describe lots of people not neccesarily Muslims.

Repression of women. Women in the UK have had to fight for their rights, for vote for equal pay and treatment, they don't just have it because they are women.

Ghetto's and Enclaves, they are all over the inner cities of the UK and the world and they have been for centuries. It is poverty and discrimination that bring about Ghetto's. Many White people live in Ghetto's, should we get rid of them as well?

Extemism and radicalisation, see the Ausie rant for that.

Terrorism is not a Muslim thing, I find it funny how you conveniently ignore terrorism by other groups not Muslim, then again that would not suit your argument.

White supremasists seek to oppress women, want to force their opponents and those they hate into Ghetto's, they are extremists and are radicalised(if that is wrong) and commit acts of terrorism. I don't see you complaining about them.

You seek to steroetype Muslims and Islam as being evil. What have you done to help make the world a better safer place for everyone to live in?

Your arguments sound similar to the smears used by the Nazi's against the Jews in the thirties and we all know what happened then don't we Vikingar, or don't you think the Holocaust happened?

You say that Muslims are not intergrated yet that is not the case. I work with Muslims and have Muslim friends. It is you that will not intergrate. Similar things have been said about the Irish, and all the none white immigrants. It was Asylum seekers who were the demons a few years ago, now to justify the so called "War on Terror" it is muslims.

Think for yourself, don't believe everything you read in the papers. The funny thing is the links you post do not actually support your argument. Many are just surveys of peoples opinions. If there are divisions you are not helping to build bridges, you appear to be eager to create even more divisions by making sweeping generalisations about an entire religion.

Britain unfotunatly has a history of intolerence to immigrants not tolerence, there are already a wide range of cutural practices, I am not a Chritsian, so I do not fit into your idea of Britishness.How is 2% sizable, it is a tiny minority. We do not live in a utopia crime and corruption and intollerence are rife yet you try to make out we are somehow culturally.

Why do you want to turn people against muslims?

Jay I see you have no arguments against my points so waffle on about me being a punk, wow big deal. Every music movement from Rock and Roll to Hip Hop have been demonised by bigots in the UK and US. Punk gigs were cancelled due to complaints by people who decided that punk was a danger to society and our morals. They based their information on Gossip, scaremongering and over-exagerated stories in the press. Sounds familiar?

In America people like Marylin Manson have recieved death threats, just for making music. Religious extremists in the US burn records and call for censorship.

What music do you listen to?

Peace, Love and Unity.

Ref anarchosurfer #59

CAVEAT - presume you鈥檙e a liberal left / left believer not an Islamic radical playing games - I presume the former, so hence lang used below.

I refer you to my #55

Ah the old liberal left / left trick ... if you do not agree with us your 'racist'

No wonder mainstream society & government do not listen to such dated & detached pressure groups & their dated societal ideas ... i.e. multiculturalism.

And you have to ask why they liberal left / left deny the scale of the problem [1a] [1b] [1c]

They do not possess useful current answers only dated mantra :(

Up until the 1960s it took the UK thousand plus years for approx tens of thousands of Muslims to settle in the British Isles

Since 1960s in less than 40 years 1.6 million people of that faith have assembled/settled in the UK.

Since 1960s multiculturalism has encroached & been enforced on the mainstream British society.

Since 1960s social cohesion in the UK (in many forms) has been breaking down (no accident)

The most virulent & divisive form of this is the ghettoisation & enclave behaviour of far too many British Muslims *

* you know the place where domestic terrorism has sprouted from, to attack the very host society that gave their families & communities a home.

'anarchosurfer' you tout the argument "Why do you want to turn people against muslims?"

I do not.

Like me, I would argue mainstream society has long desired to challenge the threats to British Social cohesion & have awakened to the scale of threat that is already within our shores from Muslim fundamentalism & extremism, which leads to terrorism.

We welcome those Muslims (minority) who have made the effort, but acknowledge the majority have not. But other minority communities have (British Asian - Indian) - why?

You & your clique may be unable / unwilling to ask questions - but as you see mainstream society, politics & media are not.

If you fail to see the scale & cause of the threat to British Society presumably your:

- blind to the obvious (dated agenda)

- not who you say you are (other agenda)

- awaiting cultural implode (other agenda)

btw - well known is the utter contempt too many of the liberal left / left have for their own nations history, culture & institutions - hay ho :(

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[1c]

Anarchosurfer

It may seem trivial waffle to you, but the truth is its a testament, along with many others, to the liberal society we live in.

Ignoring these factors about our society is convenient for the new British identity.
This identity has based its whole persona on the liberal concept of tolerance. In doing so, the individual has now given themselves a transcendental status that gives them exemption from been stereotypical, discriminative, and all assuming.

The new British identity has learned that adhereing religiously to the concept of tolerance as an absolute, enables them to "point the finger" and appear as more liberally developed then the rest of mainstream society, but in doing so, rather then appear as more liberally developed, they appear as hypocritical, as they fail to project all the other numerous concepts of liberty towards anything other than their own culture, and anyone from that culture who decides to makes any form of social comment about their own customs and traditions automatically gets branded with the racist white supremacist sterotype, giving the brander the perception of been more liberally developed then the next British man/woman, a perception central to the new british identity.

Having used history as examples you've failed to grasp any notion of historical epochs. Epochs that have a begining and an end, that include fundamental factors and a developing psyche throughout its duration.
You focus in on prejudice and barbarism from the western states as though this was unique to the western world, but ironically ignore the uniqueness of the social development which the western world has undergone, choosing instead to highlight events from a bygone era to
try and prove the deeply offensive notion that prevails within society that the white male is naturally intolerant and racist , which in essence makes the new British identity, intent on the one ideal of tolerance, a greater achievement having fought against these natural prejudices.
Well, well done you!

To the rest of us who incorporate all the liberal concepts into the framework of this changing nation, British identity, culture, tradition , customs and history are something to be proud of, but yet to the new identity any form of celebration or reference towards anything that this entails is perceived as pre-social revolution and belonging to the psyche of an imperial age.
The British empire for instance, you will see a race of people raping and pillaging a land that is not their own, I see a race of people who brought an end to the imperial epoch that covered a four thousand period incorporating all races and religions, or the Slave trade for instance, you will see a race of people that dehumanised other fellow members of the human race, I see a race of people who were the first imperial superpower to end a barbaric trade, that also incorporated all races and religions, but spanned an even greater period of time then the imperial epoch.
To me, these are all things to be proud of, but to you, these are all things to be ashamed of.

As for not entitled to make an assessment on a culture unless you have read their religious doctrine. Well I have, not only the Koran, but also the Torah, the New Testament and a lot of other religious doctrines that have receded into history. Their principles are all the same, how to lead a morally good life in accordance with the divine creation.

I just hope that population growth of the foreign cultures coming in to this country do merge more with the matriarchal framework of the nation. Although I do believe because of the social revolutions this country went through in the 20th century, the over compensation that follows the transitional period of any revolution has given us a disregard for any patriarchal values, values that are needed for are true equal balance, but nevertheless, a return to a deeply patriarchal society, whether it be local or regional, would be a step backwards in our plight of social development, but rather then leaving this possible course of the future to chance, surely these social concepts of liberty should overule the one concept of tolerance that dominates our social agenda today.

As for my music, anything blues based, SRV is my messiah!

Ref Jay #64

Hear Hear

Nicely put :)

vikingar

Suffragette's daughter wrote: "... Veils are more than a piece of cloth, they are a symbol of the obliteration of women."

Very excellent comment.

So at the end of an eventful week.

The Mega Mosque & The Veil

1st story - Mega Mosque being sought by secretive Sunni Muslim sect 'Tablighi Jamaat', based in Dewsbury.

2nd story - Aishah Azmi The Veiled Teaching assistant, based in Dewsbury.

The same 'Tabligi Jamaat' claiming this proposed 100,000+ capacity mosque in London next to the Olympics will be inclusive.

The same 'Tabligi Jamaat' whose purpose built mosque (largest in Europe) is based in Dewsbury #25

The same 'Tabligi Jamaat' who since the 70's in the UK have remained insular & secretive, esp in Dewsbury, which is the site of their European Headquarters, self ghettoising into a cultural enclave the surrounding area of Dewsbury.

And then we get the issue of Aishah Azmi the 24 year old' Veiled' teaching assistant - now seeking legal aid [1] - in Dewsbury.

One reasonably presumes The Veiled teaching assistant attends the 'Tabligi Jamaat' mosque in Dewsbury

Moderate Muslims please speak out, don't let the radical & fundamentalists in your religion highjack your faith (at least in the UK for starters).

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

Ref JPseudonym #69

THE MEGA MOSQUE & THE VEIL

Laugh ... I nearly had an embolism :)

You really could not script this one.

Thanks for finding link

Q. given Mrs Aishah Azmi * is married ** & her father is a member of 'Tablighi Jamaat' *** is presumably is in a position not without resources/wealth, will she qualify for Legal Aid [1a]

* The Veiled teaching assistant of Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire [1b]

** Mr Ahmed Khan of Dewsbury, West Yorkshire [1c]

*** Head/Owner of Institute of Islamic Education, Dewsbury, West Yorkshire [1d]

THE VEIL - LEGAL SUPPORT

Mrs Aishah Azmi is receiving legal support from Kirklees Law Centre [2]

She is reported to be applying for legal aid, but either way her solicitor Nick Whittingham said "If we don't get that we're doing it for free," [1a]

Furthermore, Nick Whittingham said "he could not say how much this could eventually cost, if funding was secured, but dismissed some reports of a total cost in the region of 拢250,000" [1a]

KIRKLEES LAW CENTRE

Kirklees Law Centre is funded by mix of local & agency monies but either way its all public money.

"Around half of Kirklees鈥� current budget is derived from the local council. Other local service providers support the Law Centre providing case referrals. Also, key sections of the community support the Law Centre" [3a]

"Kirklees Law Centre has been established with a 拢100,000 grant from the local authority and two contracts from the Legal services Commission worth a further 拢100,000. Part of the success of this initiative has been the commitment of both mainfunders from the early stages of development of the new Law Centre" [3b]

Q. should we really spend money on single issue causes when its being championed by a radical religious sect **** (not without resources themselves given they are proposing to fund the building of Mega Mosque in London for the Olympics)?

**** not unreasonable to presume Mrs Aishah Azmi (The Veiled assistant teacher) of Dewsbury, also attends 'Tablighi Jamaat' Mosque & learning centre, run by her father, in Dewsbury.

SUMMARY

Well even the Teaching Blogs are going guns on this one [4a]

At the moment we are being told cancer patients can only get limited funding (argument - economics do apply).

Should any one individual get disproportionate legal aid funding or free aid from state funded law centre regarding a politically issue sponsored by a religious sect, esp when a Employment Tribunal has found against The Veiled women in both central tenets of the case.

btw - I'll stand corrected, but in Employment Tribunals - don't awards get used to pay ones legal fees? unless represented by unions (or is the Kirklees Law Centre doing a freebie on this one as well).

Pity the above holes the argument about lone misunderstood Muslim women against the system. There are multiple groups with multiple agendas playing games here - with children's education - shame :(

I argue that this Muslim teaching assistant is using both her religion & the education of children for political purposes of her secret Sunni religious sect - 'Tablighi Jamaat'

Finally, given Mohammed Sidique Khan [4b] (who not only lived in Dewsbury but attended the sect 'Tablighi Jamaat' Mosque in Dewsby with other July Bomber) was also a teaching assistant 鈥�..

Q. are fundamentalist, radical, extremist & terrorist branches of Islam deliberating targeting British schools & support groups for a variety of purposes?

political, support, recruitment, cover, legitimacy, funding, access to local/central government agencies, personnel & premises etc

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1a]
[1b]
[1c]
[1d]
[2]
[3a]
[3b]
[4a]
[4b]

If I go to an interview wearing a good suit and tie because the position requires it and get the position.
Then I go to work in jeans and no tie I would expect to be told to wear a suit and tie or be sacked.
Most employers set a few weeks or months trial period to see that a person remains suitable.
This is a practice that can stop people hood winking emplyers as to their suitablity.

Re. ARM's post where he wrote

"I have visited Dewsbury Markaz and i can assure you that what is being witten is far from the truth."

Then perhaps ARM can explain why 10 years ago, the Muslim women of Dewsbury did not wear full-face veils, and that they, and their men, were happy for them to wear a simple Pashmina, or a headscarf which they draped around their heads when in the company of men or inside the other Mosques, and why ten years on, more and more women in Dewsbury and now linked to the semi-Wahhabist funded Deobandi-sect's Tabligh Jamaat Mosque are living behind a veil?

The full-face veil was not worn before the Tabligh Jamaat moved in and began proselytising to Britain's progressive, traditionally Sunni Muslims in the Dewsbury, Preston, and Blackburn areas.

The media, the racist-right, and some of the politicians can pat themselves on the back for contributing to fear in younger Muslims, so that when the Tabligh Jamaat come knocking on their door, they are made to feel that they must turn to an organisation like the Tabligh Jamaat in order to 'stay safe' and survive as a Muslim in Britain. The reality is the Tabligh Jamaat are separating young British Muslims from their parents' ways, their community's ways, and from the ways of non-Muslim Brits by favouring a dress code which is far removed from the liberal and progressive Sunni community living here in Britain.

Ref Cat #72

"The media, the racist-right, and some of the politicians can pat themselves on the back for contributing to fear in younger Muslim..."

Don't forget those responsible in the UK (if not progressive societies) cultural impasse 鈥� where do the root lays.

i.e. the elements of Liberal Left & Left responsible for imposing & touting 'multiculturalism'.

They forgot (or arrogantly presumed) that minorities who needed protection & rights also needed constructive criticism.

The idea touted- one fit suits all - WRONG - you cannot legislate against the nuances of human nature & steamroller the state over people.

Society, media, politics & institutions are now having to simultaneously wrestle cultural issues & the biggest failure of this (domestic terrorism) all at once.

Our challenge is to tackle actual threats:

1) cultural harmony

2) tangible legal threat to life, as attempted shoe bombing, two July Bombings & several subsequent attempts (in court at present) carried out by British Muslims * have shown all.

* immigrants, asylum seekers, 2nd/3rd generation citizens

Besides the issue of domestic terrorism, the insular nature & cultural enclaves British Muslim communities 30+ years in the making (willingly entered into since arriving in the UK) have to be tackled.

The failure of integration by certain communities rather than individuals is the 2nd root cause of our problems.

But what came first was the gag imposed by the Liberal Left & Left on society to criticise such behaviours in their earliest days - an opportunity denied.

vikingar

I'm a student at 6th form currently doing a report on the niqab qorn by muslims. It outrages me greatly the amount of time and effort spent by the government sorting out issues such as banning the veil, which should be a LAW!!!we live in england, no actually great britain now isn't it, so why can;t they just follow the british culture!!!

I am a muslim, i wear full islamic clothes and a (naqab) that hides my face-i am very PROUD to be a muslim.and know one forces women to wear the veil or naqab,it is of our own choice!!I DONT KOW WHY IS IT A PROBLEM OF SOME PEOPLE,BY US MUSLIMS WEARING OF THE VEIL,WE WANT TO FOLLOW ISLAM NOT PEOPLE. TABLIGH JAMAAT MOSQUE- i am very happy that this mosque is going to be built,and BELEIVE me tabligh jamaat does not train terrorists,i wonder where has some people got this wrong statment from,i have gone for jamaat my self i HAVENT even heard of such things like killing etc etc.TABLIGH JAMAT TEACHES YOU HOW TO CREATE MORAL ACTS,RESPECT,FORGIVE,AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.... THOSE OF YOU WHO DO NOT WANT THIS MOSQUE TO BE BUILT I THINK THAT THERE ARE JUST JELOUSE,OR MAYBE IL CALL IT RACIST.WE RESPECT ALL RELEGIONS SO WE WANT THE SAME PLEASE.

OK then so what about all the other country's and religions who are coming to the Olympics ? do they get a super church? NO they dont

super church? churches through out the uk are turned into schools niteclubs play areas and in places like bolton preston they are turned into mosques. with all these churches being removed due to christians giving up on there religion how can further churches be built. with islam getting bigger and bigger by the hour and by there own choice. THE MEDIA AND MANY OTHERS ARE TRYING TO PUT ISLAM DOWN BUT ITS NOT GOING TO WORK. IN USA 20 THOUSAND ARE REVERTING TO ISLAM EVERY MONTH, PEOPLE ARE SEEING THE TRUTH AND FINDING PEACE WITHIN ISLAM.EVERYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING TODAY WITH DISASTERS ETC THE QURAN HAD TOLD US THAT 1400 YEARS AGO SO WAKE UP BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. EVERYTHING HAS A CREATOR AND EVERYTHING WE DO IS FOR A REASON. WE EAT CAUSE WE NEED FOOD WE WEAR CLOTHES TO COVER OURSELVES, WE ARE HEAR IN THIS WORLD FOR A REASON. WE AS MUSLIMS HAVE TO RESPECT OTHER RELIGIONS BELIEFS AND PEOPLE WHO DONT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING. THEY WILL FIND OUT AT THE TIME OF DEATH SIMPLE.ISLAM HAS AND WILL REMAIN THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLD NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE MEDIA OR THE GOVERMENT PUT STOPS TO ANYTHING REGARDING TO THE TRUTH.(ISLAM)
REGARDING THE VEIL HOW MANY WOMEN ARE RAPED DAILY IN BRITAIN CAUSE THEY GO OUT HALF NAKED.
WOULD THIS HAPPEN TO A WOMAN WHO IS COVERED UP?
MOST MEN WHETHER MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN WOULD PREFER THERE WIFES NOT TO BE LOOKED AT OR COMMENTED AT AND THE ONLY WAY IS FOR THEM TO BE COVERED UP.
THESE WOMEN ARE SAYING TO THE WORLD WE ARE FOR OUR HUSBANDS ONLY.
WHY IS IT THEN IN PLACES LIKE SAUDI DUBAI ETC YOU DONT HEAR OF RAPES? THINK AND WAKE UP.
ALLAH SHOW US ALL THE RIGHT PATH.