成人论坛

At PMQs I thought Dave Cameron accused the PM of cutting 20,000 jobs in the NHS, I may have misheard... whatever, the PM today is now talking(With the NHS Top Brass in attendance at the press briefing!!) about compulsory redundancies when saying" in the hundreds" not the higher figures he was challenged about.

Not filling vacant posts,compulsory or agreed redundancies are all surely inclusive in that figure...it all adds up to a reduction of staffing in the NHS... ergo at the higher 20,000s+.& past experience with these matters dictates the real staffing figures & Hospitals total or part closures will be far worse/more than espoused!.

RE: Darfur

Why are you interviewing the International Development Secretary tonight and not the Foreign Secretary? Darfur is a foreign policy issue requiring a foreign policy response at Security Council level (including the possibility of a Chapter 7 resolution for non-consensual intervention).

By interviewing Difid, the Foreign office avoid having to face tough scrutiny over their foreign policy posture. Hilary Benn is qualified to talk about Britain's laudible aid spending in Sudan but is not as directly accountable on the more difficult question of international action via the UN which it is not his remit to negotiate.

Please try to elicit a detailed FCO statement on the subject, if you have not already.

Yours Sincerely,

Charles Keidan

What, no muslim stories tonight? I am dissapointed.
Oh wait....Sudan, wherever that is.

The outrage of the 成人论坛 in relation to the Government of Sudan arming and training militias to ethnically cleanse indigenous African communities is a bit hard to take.

Likewise the recent "expose" of President Musarrif of Pakistan and the role of his secret services in supporting Al Quaida terrorists.

At this point in time the British Governments own secret service MI5 maintains at least six Loyalist militias in Northern Ireland broken up into over twenty gangs who can kill with impunity. Apart from drug dealing they are engaged in ensuring areas like North Belfast and many towns in Antrim are ethinically cleansed.

These organisations have been exposed in British courts of law as being armed and directed by paid agents of the state (see Nelson trial).

MI5 are currently blocking several legally constituted enquiries into mass murderers under their influence (NB Stevens enquiry) and also blocked the Irish Governments own enquiry into the Irish equivalent of the London Bombings. The Dublin Monagahan bombings were conducted by members of the UK security services.

Can you imagine how Newsnight would react if the recent suicide bombings in London had been sponsored by the Pakistani or Irish Governments? And if the security services of those countries succeeded in blocking the subsequent enquiry?

RE: Ethical Flying

Short cheap flights have increased dramatically due to the difficulties in other ways of getting across the country, maybe if those plane stupid people didn't try and stop the roads expansion then less people would be flying.

Re: air-travel activism

The spokesman from Plane Stupid was asked where he gets the right to impose his view on other people. I think the real question is where everyone else gets the right to change the planet in a way that is so damaging to life.

Why give airtime to someone who advocates lawbreaking and a campaign to disrupt the lives of millions, as well as threaten air safety? Campaign groups should try and get the public on side, rather than anger them. Few will support a disruption campaign aimed at forcing the Govt. to raise taxes. The report on ethnic cleansing Southern Sudan of its ethnic African population highlights an example of a real life and death issue that campaigners should focus upon. Global warming is a global issue, and without global consensus, something this Government has actually tried to promote, direct action will drive the public in the opposite direction. I am sure that peacekeeping and ending wars will do more for the environment than hammering the leisure and business travelling public.

Is Kashif Iqbal suggesting that it is not appropriate for Newsnight to bring to public attention the evidence that mass murder of Muslim Africans in Darfur is being directed by the Sudanese government because it implies criticism of another Islamic government. What a disgraceful position.

The greatest number of innocent Muslims who are being murdered today are being killed in Sudan, more than in Iraq and more than in Palestine. It is suspicious and cynical that elements of the anti-war movement are seeking to suppress knowkledge of the vast crimes on Darfur. Shame on you!

Dear Sir/Madam
Ref:Former Janjaweed wittness
There has been endless debate in what to do about Darfur and the Sudanese government.
but as Sudanese journalist am disgust to see the 成人论坛 using fake wittness about the issue the person despite his disgise gave his identitey away he is Chadian.
Altough every sudanese know that the government trained those militias but we could do without fake propganda to ver throw this regiem, and I think that also for the interst of the 成人论坛 journalism integrety.
best regards.
info: here are the Darfur tribes
Majaneen,Alashraf, Bani Omran,Alfur, Zaghawa, Masalit, Baggara, Rizeigat, Aldajo, Altinger, Altama, Zelat, Mahameed, Mahirih, Ma'aliya, Khazam, Falata, Bnovzarh ,Johaina, Birgit ,Alberti ,Albeko, Bnograr ,Alhlph, Missiyira, Taishia, Kababish ,Bin Rashid, Algamar, Almima,Alairegat,Midop tribes, Altalls ,Turgum, Habania ,Mararit, AlNoor ,Al Bati ,Ziyadiyah Burgo, Beni Helba, Beni Hussein
and do you know which one your guy belong to?
I chalege the 成人论坛 this wittness to name his trbe and I will bring his tribe leader to conferm that to the 成人论坛.He is not and the sad things there are many of them now days claiming Asylum on these basis bluntly Bougous

Perhaps Plane Stupid could make more progress in cutting short haul air travel if they took direct action against Branson's Virgin to end the current rip-off of walk-on long distance rail fares. Perhaps carbon trading is little more than a cash cow for parasitic city traders to make false money for doing nothing useful. The whole green scene is becoming a vehicle to rip-off the gullible, " pay us 拢 cash for this piece of junk and everything will be ok. " Low energy light bulbs must cost more energy to make than an ordinary light bulb, plus they create lots of toxic waste when disposed of. Back in the 1970s we were taught in O level physics that it takes more energy to start a fluorescent tube light than it does to run it for a full hour. As low energy bulbs are basically mini fluorescent tubes, if you only switch the light on for short periods, traditional bulbs probably come out more efficient in the long run.

As for the NHS job cuts, perhaps Blair is not counting agency staff, which the NHS will be more efficient without. I suspect that the nursing agencies are funding and organising most of the protests.

Ref dan wheatley #10

Hear Hear

The self justifying right to any action/belief via the notion of 'global Muslim empathy' (touted by various group besides members of that religion) irrespective of whether they have visited the country or know the Muslim people there - seemingly does not extend to acknowledging the deaths of Muslims by Muslims (majority of cases)

But only too willing to bang on about the deaths of Muslims by Non Muslims (the minority of cases)

vikingar

Dear Newsnight

The story of Darfur makes me so incredibly angry that I can scarcely watch. We seem able to think about the past and say never again to genocide but then allow it to continue. How can we stand by and allow this. the reason is the people of Darfur have been murdered and raped and we have done nothing and the same has happened in the Congo -4 million dead is that they are poor and black. We use our armed forces to try to support US policy basically designed to steal Iraqi oil and yet with a small force we coulD stop these terrible events. We desperately need politicians who love justice more than anything else.

There is a slight link to the campaign story you ran tonight. I hope that these young activists are sincere and are not trying to make a name for themselves, playing the old route to power game.
I can name but not on this site 3 radicals who made the same sort of noises for good causes when young but when in a position to, jumped over the fence to line their own pockets. That is in addition to scores of politicians originally on the left, now in government playing the same game.

I hope these activists do not imitate this -its no good asking them because they will promise not to, but the whole problem seems to be that the radicals of the past kept true to their principles once they gained office the world would be a very different place. We would intervene immediately in places like Darfur and the Congo, we would not be in Iraq. We would be feeding the hungry of the world. giving them clean water and medical care.

As for Hilary Benn's comments -I would agree with him that Darfur is a 'serious situation'. Yes it is also serious is that these suffering and dying people rely on someone like you to help them.

Surely you must realise that action is required tonight -not in a months time, not through committees. DONT YOU UNDERSTAND? IF YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY WERE BEING RAPED AND MURDERED WOULD YOU SAY THE SAME THING MR BENN?

We must have principled people in office who will act to help those suffering in the world. For those active in campaigns we must hope that when some of them gain power that they will not betray those who need their help.

best wishes
Bob Goodall

Re: the janjaweed killer being interviewed

I cannot believe what I just watch on your program, are you really telling me that this government is allowing these people to come here seeking political asylum?

It鈥檚 not the first time you have shown killers who have left their country of origin and come here claiming asylum, in order to live off tax payer鈥檚 money.

I have to keep the faith and look at it the same way as how I look at all the liars who have lied on their immigration application to stay in this country.

This Labour government has been a pouch over for these people, all they have to do is to show up at the port of entry and claim persecution. I think it鈥檚 time the British people stand up and fight for this country.

Just ask yourself, is it right for an admitted women killer to be allowed to walk around free in Croydon? Also lets face reality here, how long is it going to take before he kills again, for that clearly is all he knows. Who is he fooling? That is what he was trained in.

How did he get the money to get to Croydon, did he also rob the people he killed. The whole situation is very sad for this country is going down fast. I feel sorry for my children who are growing up in it.

Re: janjaweed 'witness',

Iam concerned about Dimitri's assertion that this witness is a fake however, a review of the report does show efforts were made to check the voracity of what the Janjaweed said. I hope he is not in this country without some kind of monitoring of his behaviour particularly as he seemed to avoid the hard questions about his part in the atrocities in Darfur. Denial is an understandable response as I'm sure the psychologist referred to would confirm. I have to say that the Sudanese government involvement is old news - and Newsnight watchers should find the excellent Genocide Intervention Network on line as they give regular updates of the situation. If the Sudanese government were even mildly concerned (or had nothing to hide) about the international community's perception of them they would allow the UN in but they are more worried about being found out and suffering the consequences of say the International Criminal Court (as was the case in Rwanda!) Human rights should come before the niceties of State automony and legitimacy. Any state which acts as a predator (covertly or otherwise) either within or without its borders can have no say against the rest of the world acting to live up to their obligation to "prevent and punish genocide" as per the Geneva Convention. I find it detestible to see some Western governments playing the numbers game before they accept the term 'genocide' for what is going on in Darfur - does it have to reach 800,000+ as in Rwanda before reality hits home? The Sudanese government have forfeited the right to say no to the UN by their dissembling and obfuscation - their actions not their words tell us the truth.

Best Regards

Elizabeth Grant

Liz Grant

Tom Cummins wrote: "I think the real question is where everyone else gets the right to change the planet in a way that is so damaging to life".

Tom, it鈥檚 called democracy. If people don't like current policy they have the opportunity, through the ballot box, to vote for a political party that supports their own viewpoint. If a majority of the population agree then we will likely see the desire of these 'plain crazy' (sp deliberate) folks enacted. However, if as I suspect most people don't agree... well you can claw my cheap flights from my cold dead hands!

Your program on the Janjaweit features at least two factual errors:

Your defector claims that the Interior Minister was a regular visitor to his camps, then names Abdul Rahim Mohamed Hussein as the visitor. The Interior Minister of Sudan is El Zubir Bashir Taha. Hussein is the Defense Minister.

Your investigator claims Brian Steidel was a technical advisor to the African Union. Brian was a military observer contracted by the U.S. Department of State working on a team of African Union military observers in Nyala.

These errors reduce your credibility. This is important, and if you really want to do something to stop the killing rather than simply presenting breathless reportage, please do better fact checking.

I think it is disgusting that the bbc interview the janawiet. Why has this man be allowed into the country when he is a murderer. I find it incredibly.

In response to Pantsman. It's not wise to rush into lauding democracy as a 'hurrah' word. The most obvious evidence that comes to mind is the popular support given to the Nazi Party. We are, on the whole, an ignorant group of people and if you visit you can see that our 'expert' representatives are quite often in bed with climate change's worst culprits.

Re Darfur:

I'd really have liked to have seen Hilary Benn (in the absence of Margaret Beckett) being asked directly why our government is refusing to label the events in Sudan as Genocide?

Surely Mr Benn's sidestepping of the label was purely because if our Parliament recognises the events as Genocide, then we are obliged to intervene, under international law.

To refuse to recognise genocide as such, is a political decision resulting in judicial and moral abrogation of duty of the highest order.

Another day ANOTHER climate story.

Is there no other news? I'm about ready to give up on Newsnight if we don't get something fresh.

How many people need to be stabbed to death or shot in our country before Newsnight think that crime is worthy of inclusion and investigation at the expense of a trip to Jamaica to give out lightbulbs?

You could do so much good if you put crime under the spotlight to the same degree as Ethical Man's rubbish.

Janjaweed:
This is not the first time I have heard that the Sudanese Government where involved.

The UN have let down the people of Darfur. They are legally obliged to act when there is Genocide, however they get away with it by calling it Ethnic Cleansing.

The Militia member should be interviewed by the police and they should consider prosecution. He should also give evidence to the UN and the war crimes tribunal.

Climate Change:

The reporter was a hypocrite, his wife was right. He could have gotten a reporter already living in Jamaica to cover that part of the story.
Offsetting is something people should be doing. Most people leave a carbon footprint that is far too high, even without flying. I agree it should not be used to make people feel better about damaging the environment. If you feel guilty about flying don't fly. If you can afford to offset some of your carbon emmissions by all means do so, but reduce your own emmissions too.

The story about the direct action was very interesting. It is not for those taking direct action to decide how the airlines should improve their environmental impact, they seek to highlight it. Quite rightly in my opinion. If the airlines don't want people taking direct action then they need to improve.

The representative from the air companies made a very valid point, something that seems to have been brushed under the carpet by the present vogue for attacking airlines rather than tacle the vworst offenders. He said the in Europe, Aircraft are only responsible for 3% of emmissions but car transport is responsible for over 20%.

This is where I become very unpopular, over 70% of transport polution in the UK comes from cars. In the UK this is where the biggest increase in emissions comes from. While emissions from manufacturing have decreased, car emmissions are increasing. Instead of having a go at aircraft, it is private car use that needs to be curbed the most. Politicians are too scared to do this due to the power that drivers and oil companies have.

My argument over airplanes is there should be international efficiency targets, as well as international taxation rates of the fuel. The direct action people need to keep the pressure on them.

Cars are a also menace, they are the single biggest killer of teenagers. Long before the environmental considerations I never liked the idea of driving as you take other peoples lives into your hands for your convenience. I am not sayng people should not drive, disabled people and those in rural areas often have no choice. They are also important for businesses.

I have helped carry out traffic surveys, the main thing we noticed besides the phlegm we ended up coughing up was the sheer number of uneccessary journeys simply to go shopping or visit friends. I'm not talking the about family shop at the supermarket, I mean just going into the town cemter for a nose around. Most of them could have used public transport for all or some of the journey. Some would rather park for free over half a mile from the shops rather than get a bus or train, even though this would have been far more convenient and meant less walking. They could even have parked near a staion or bus stop and dramatically reduced the car journey.

One point I think people need to think about is what they will tell their Grandchildren when they ask what they did to prevent global warming. According to an article in New Scientist temperatures in some places such as Siberia have risen far higher than the average rise in global temperatures. Siberia is a massive reservoir of trapped carbon, if this gets into the atmosphere it will cause a snowball effect.

Asking drivers to curb car use would not be very popular with drivers, but massive investment in Public Transport, park and ride schemes and alternatives like cycling would help to make it easier on them.

The train companies need to provide far more cycle spaces and be more cycle friendly. Combining trains and cycles is a very environmentally and efficient way to travel, especially over long distances. At present cyclists are seen as a nuicence.

I have been in contact with most train operators and while not getting satisfactory responces, I received considered replies from all except for self styled "environmental Guru" Richard Branson's Virgin. A company I have allways considered the least cycle friendly of all. Other companies may not have much space but do let you on without a booking.

It took three attempts to get a response from Virgin, and that was a computer generated response that did not answer any of my questions.

Maybe Newsnight could ask Mr Branson about his cycling policies he could consult with The Cycling Touring Club and Greenpeace for ways to encourage people to combine cycling and train travel if he's really interested in saving the planet and not just after free publicity. Your interview with him on this subject was very good I could see him squirm. You had him on the ropes. Now is his chance to make ammends for all tyhe damage his airline does.

If I want to take my bike to places only served by Virgin I cannot go or would have to go by car. It's no good booking a place as the train could be cancelled or I could have a mishap and miss the train. Virgin will not allow unbooked bikes on the train even if there are none already on. I now boycot all Virgin Products and encourage others to support me, many do.

If the Government are serious about reducing carbon emmissions they need to speak to those who are actually doing this. We know the difficulties and barriers those living a low carbon lifestyle face and we know the solutions.

Doing away with city centre parking and introducing out of town park and ride schemes is an answer, it would also cut down congestion, something that costs British businesses Billions every tear. It would also reduce our reliance on imported oil.

NHS:

I thought I'd gone back in time to the eightees for a minute as I watched the figures.

According to Private Eye the NHS spent 拢340 million on clinican consultants in 2005/06 and 拢325 million on management consultants in the same period.

FREE KRISHNA MAHARAJ, he is an innocent man and a victim of the corrupt Florida legal system.

Peace, Love and Unity.

Re: Sudan and "Ali"

Clearly, there are many questions still to be answered and many tragic facts still to learn.

In the meantime, I shall remain ever grateful that I am not in this man's predicament.
I therefore refuse to judge him.
I place my trust for the time-being in those who know more than I do.

I am unafraid to weep. I am also unafraid to hope that maybe, just maybe, the appearance on our shores of "Ali" and his testimony might be one step towards remedial action.

I am grateful to Newsnight for raising this matter and for trying to reach the truth of the whole sorry mess. Thank you.

Maybe Vikinga, Dimitri and Beverly ought to get together they'd have a great time.

Dimitri, all that effort just to have a go at Asylum Seekers, Bravo. To put it bluntly I think YOU are Bogus. The use of language and the bad spelling are inconsistent. Using Dear Sir/Madam is a dead givaway of your English roots. The information is wrong, many of the tribes listed live in both the Sudan and Chad, so it would not be possible to tell which country someone came from. Some of the names are for Tribes which you also use sub groups of the same tribes. You mis-spelt Baqqara as Baggara an easy mistake but not for someone from Darfur. The claim that he can bring a Tribal chief from any one of the warring groups also sounds bogus. You do not seem to know the difference between the Arab groups and the African ones. It is unlikely someone would be on good terms with both. If you are an expert on Darfur your list is very poor and innaccurate. You do not seem to be a very good journalist. You merely gives a list of tribes which anyone can get from the internet, that does not prove anything. Tell us why you think he is from Chad and give us some background about the Tribes, how about naming each chief too, you say you know them all.

Not everyone refused Asylum is bogus. Many are sent back to dangerous countries due to the pressures to refuse Asylum. Most Asylum Seekers are the victims of violence. It's important to remember that the vast Majority of Refugees are in Africa, displaced by war, they are desperatly poor, they survive rather than live.

The last I heard Iran was the country with the largest number of Refugee's in the World. They came from Iraq and Afghanistan. The vast majority of Refugee's are desperatly poor so cannot afford to reach the Developed World. Many walk accross Africa in desperation and try to cross the mediteranian. Life in the Refugee camps is desperate. In Sudan they are at the mercy of the Janjaweed. At least four million people have died in the war in the Congo, is it any wonder some end up here.

The top ten countries for Asylum are allways the countries in the news for War and human rights abuses, this is no accident.

In the nineties there was an influx of Asylum seekers from Kosovo, at the same time Milosovich was waging Genocide on them. This has now stopped as the situation while still very dangerous is calmer.

Those of you that think we in the UK are any better than other people should read Brenda@6. The links between the Loyalists and the Security Forces are well known. The Links between the Tory party and the Loyalists er... Unionists is well known too.

Peace, Love and Equality.

Ref: NEWSNIGHT 成人论坛 JANJAWEED PRODUCER RESPONS

Dear Sir/Madam
Thanks for taking time to respond.
For a moment I thought you will also going to ask me what colour am?!! Not like the 成人论坛 am colour blind also race deference鈥檚 ignorant when it came to know who by name! And am not going to go down that road.
Am a Sudanese I think I did mention that, and you are right about the name in my case even that is the name am known by and I do not have any Greek roots but again here for your information the name Dimitri although common in Sudan i.e. Dimitri Albazar the famous Sudanese librarian who introduce the old Vinyl gramophone records to the Sudanese life etc. just to satisfy your curiosity he is black! mind you at one time we had the largest Greek expats community in Africa even in Darfur please read Sir Slatin Pasha,1857-1932.governor of Dara (1879) and governor-general of Darfur (1881) book "Fire and Sword in the Sudan: A Personal narrative of Fighting and Serving the Dervishes" or Sudan days and ways. By Sir Henry Cecil Jackson. you won't find just there were Greek expats there since that time but it will also give you insight to Darfur.
Again let us stick with your reportage issues.
Not any Sudanese but I think the majority who know the country well will tell you that its very easy for us to distinguish who is who from which tribe just by the face feature or the accents, speaking in Arabic or English or imitating one of the 80+ tribal slang's or languages.
In the case of your witness despite the factual errors he stumbled upon and instead of him saying he was a member of the popular defence army militias or the Arab tribal militia in which both created and supported and financed by the government and they have admitted that, your witness chosen and the reporter too to refer to him by Janjaweed or Janjaweit the mystifying term that the government of Sudan refuses to admit to.. Why? Because the recruiters and its members are the NIF members and supporters, and they are from various Sudanese tribes even from outside Darfur and for them because it was created by its former partners in power the Islamist they could easily later divert the blame from themselves! Even some former Islamist leaders who are now leading other Darfurian militias and fighting the government are aware or involved in their creations but now prefer the term for racial reasons!! So its very interesting to know the persons who created the Janjaweed Sir. And for us we passed the government involvement question because we name them by their real gangs name.
But listening to your witness accent he gave away here a clue about his identity and its easy to pin point where is he from, only few tribes do speak English in that accent and its very alarming also if its happen to be true the Sudanese government and the Islamist recruited in the popular defence forces militias or whatever you prefer to call them Janjaweed or Janjaweit, tribes like the mostly Libyan nomadic Tuareg, or the other tow Sudanese - Chadian tribes that had immigrated and chosen to settle in Darfur and changed the Darfurian code of conduct and brought new behaviours like armed robbery, plundering, and women rape which all this started after the Libyan chadian war and we never heard the 成人论坛 reporters given them aname.
So if am wrong and your witness is a Sudanese from the Darfurian chadian cross borders tribe like the Zaghawa then why is he joining the so called mostly Arab tribe militia to kill his own people, the one things for sure he is not from the Darfurian indigenous tribes or the so called Darfurian arab tribes because they do not speak the Sudanese English in Chadian French or Sahara Italian accent.
As I challenged the 成人论坛 and I will extend this to the Home office to take your offer to prove to you he is not.
just let him name his tribe an I will provide you with every information about that tribe leaders name,olders ,boundary, families, persons, etc.you could cross examine his claim on that, because only few even from the Sudanese they will know the Sudanese tribes in details so I doubt your Sudanese expert and you could find by yourself if am wrong or he is not just another Asylum claim in Britain where hundreds of cross borders related to some tribes and from neighbouring countries citizens find it easier to use the magic word Darfur or claim to be a Sudanese after all we can't blame the Home office they will need an army of investigators to verify such claimants鈥�
Before I conclude please forgive me on this fatal attraction to the style of instant reply on such debate, the Darfur so called Genocide is far than racial or tribal motivated and we can鈥檛 jump our guns like in the slavery issue where the militia that claimed such thing happening now in power and denying it as only war propaganda for the western media did the 成人论坛 fall for that as well yes it did.
Best regards

I advise Beverly (post 15) not to feel sorry for her children until she's sure that their capacity for open-mindedness and compassion has been blighted by their mother's paranoid meanness of spirit.

If she knew anyone who'd been granted asylum, or anyone who'd been kept hanging on for years for a decision, or if she ingested anything other than tabloid junk food concerning the immigration and asylum systems in this country, she would have to think again before expressing the view that our government is a soft touch for anyone seeking a haven from persecution or probable death.

Those who can look at a queue of asylum seekers and notice only liars are badly in need of a spiritual overhaul.

RE: Bob Goodall #12 in particular, others in general

Nobody wants to see people suffer whether in real life or on a TV at home. But, unfortunately, there is no quick fix solution for Africa. Based on personal experience in 8 countries over the last 5 years, if it were as simple as sending-our-troops-in it would have been done a long time ago. Changing or achieving anything takes a lot of hard and relentless work, time and patience particularly in Africa.

Sending troops into countries that do not wish them to be there can have catastrophic consequences (Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan..). Moreover, in reference to Sudan, it would not take "a small force"[#12]. Sudan is more than 10x the size of the UK and in order to effectively enforce any kind of ceasefire you would need many thousands of troops for a long period (min 2-5 years).

That "We" have not done anything about Congo is simply not true. Without the efforts of UN, donors and regional leaders the fate of civilians would be much worse. More projects than I have time and space to name and organisations such as M茅decin Sans Fronti猫res (in Engl. Doctors Without Borders??) are making a real, everyday difference to peoples' lives. In places like Sudan, where virtually all NGOs have now withdrawn, many of them risk their lives on a daily basis. Could more have been done? Could it have been done better? Well, in principle, yes I'm sure and hindsight is always the wiser. But actions are not taken in principle, they are taken in real life which is a lot more complicated than the principles of e.g. stopping a war, saving an infant's life or indeed feeding a people.

The notion that, without Iraq and with Activists in charge,

"We would be feeding the hungry of the world. giving them clean water and medical care."[#12]

is utterly pathetic. The only way Africa will ever develop is by Africans taking charge and accepting responsibility for their own actions and future. Our food, clean water and medical care will only do good in absolute emergencies and for short periods of time. African states need a strong stance from donors against corruption and overwhelming pressure to provide schools and teachers, hospitals and doctors, and roads and transport. Donors' funds are available for these activities. There are more Technical Assistants than you could wish for. What is lacking is partly a united donor front (try and get China or the US signed up on human rights or corruption conditionalities) but more importantly African governments' and administrations' political will to implement these actions and accept that this necessitates a fundamental change of attitudes and behaviour IN AFRICA. "We" cannot provide that.

You could lobby your local MP on these issues and contact the FCO/DfID to find out what they are doing. Contact the European Commission to find out about its conditionalities and follow-ups and lobby your MEP to question EC decisions on releasing unconditional funds to unaccountable or corrupt governments. Write in protest to whatever government or their embassy. But please accept that decisions are, generally, taken in good faith and based on a multitude of circumstances, interests, facts AND principles. They are NEVER simple. To pretend so is disingenuous.

Response to the following:

Anarchosurfer # 26: You clearly have missed the point. First and foremost I was concern that killers are being allowed into the country to walk around freely. Is it right for a person who admits that they have killed women in their country to be allowed to walk around freely in Croydon by using the asylum system. Where is the justice for those women who have died in Darfur?

Kevin Hanson #29: Just to let you know I am a immigration solicitor so when I state that people lie on their immigration forms that鈥檚 exactly what I am saying. Over and over I have to tell clients to find another lawyer for I am not willing to cross the line. I have seen young people who told social services that they were 15 years old, but once they are granted leave to stay in this country it turns out that they are 20 + and should never have been taken into council care when they arrive from their country of origin. What about bogus marriages, I have been told people are now charging 鈧�10.000?

You can think what you will, I know better, and know what really goes on with immigration.

Beverly (post 31),

If you're an immigration solicitor (and your level of literacy, forgive me for saying so, leaves room for doubt), then perhaps you should be looking to move to some other field, for the work you do has obviously soured you.

Indeed, I doubt whether someone for whom the ungenuine so clearly outweighs the genuine (and you only talk - with barely suppressed anger - about the ungenuine)is the right person to be dealing with matters of such crucial importance to the lives of desperate people.

Beverly IS vikingar, so are a few others around here

Ref: Kevin Hanson # 29 and #32

Clearly you are in denial Kevin Hanson, you are probably the type who would have said July 7 2005, and the second failed terror attack that took place some weeks later could not happen here in Britain. Why are you attacking Beverly #15 and 31?

Yes, I agree with Beverly why allow a self confessed murderer to come here and live off British tax payers? What other skills does he have? Some people don鈥檛 like to hear the truth, you are not addressing that facts instead you are putting down the woman. Look at Grace #19 she basically said the same thing as Beverly.

Oh, is it the fact that Beverly mentioned that they put lies on their immigration forms? I know that Beverly is right because I work with refugees and have seen what they will do to remain in this country. She forgot to outline the multiple applications in different names and the fact that they sometimes claim they come from a particular country when they do not.

Example, the man who fled to Italy after the 鈥渇ail second terror鈥� attack in 2005 on the underground train in Shepard Bush, he did not come from the country he claimed he had when he applied to stay here in Britain and his real name was not what he claimed it was so are you going to say the police and newspapers are not telling us the truth?

The only reason the government was able to track him to Italy was through his cell phone where they found him with his brother, (oh, a brother?) which he did not tell them existed, let alone that his brother was actually living in Italy when he came to Britain and applied for asylum. Remember that when his trial start and the facts come out.

What exactly is your issue, are you saying it鈥檚 ok for a person who clearly state that he had killed women and children in Darfur to just go free in Croydon? Oh, just let him stay here is that it? Would you allow an English man living in Croydon who confess to killing a woman and child on tv to go free? No court trial nothing?

Just exactly what is your real issue here Kevin Hanson?

Oh, open the doors (sorry ports of entry) and just them all in, come one come all it does not matter if you have committed rape, or killed people in your country of origin we in Britain will allow you in. What about the laws of England where murder and rape is a crime? Well we won鈥檛 hold you to our standard.

Patrick (post 34):

Your typecasting is awry: any one with a brain could see that after the invasion of Iraq some form of retaliation was inevitable.

As for my issue: I refer you to the last sentence of post 29.

I'm sure we both hope that the question of the self-confessed killer will be dealt with appropriately by the relevant authorities.

What interests me more is why people like yourself and Beverly (if you're to be believed) continue to work with refugees and asylum seekers when you hold such negative views of them.

The problem is not that you refer to those who practise subterfuge in order to stay here (any sensible person realises this goes on); it's that neither of you refer to any other kind of applicant. And is it not possible, whilst disapproving on a bureaucratic level of what some 'will do to remain in this country' to have some sympathy on a human level for what motivates them?

What you appear to be denying is that most applicants for asylum to Britain are the victims of circumstances you or I should be grateful we've never experienced.

My wife, too, works with refugees and has first hand experience of how much procedural and psychological damage can be done to asylum applicants if those who are supposed to be looking after their interests are not properly committed to the job.

My advice to you, Patrick, is the same as I gave Beverly: if you're unable to summon up enough interest even to mention the plight of the majority of refugees you work with who qualify for asylum, you should find alternative work. Or maybe you're only given the liars, connivers, scroungers and potential terrorists to work with? If so, you should speak to your boss. You deserve a break.

Ref Veberly #33

"Beverly IS vikingar, so are a few others around here"

(always wanted do a Kirk Douglas)

...I'm vikingar

vikingar

Plane Stupid by far came off best in this debate. The representative was clearly passionate and informed, which the BBA rep appeared not be (hiding behind platitudes like "we do no recognise that research"). Plane Stupid also stated that the action was taken against the taking of short flights where other transport would surffice. Concerns about carbon emissions from all arrears are obviously a concern but this was specifically designed to raise awareness of this area. Like he said, the action was taken out of a sense of social responsibility, I applaude them for it.

In answer to several posts, suggesting that by our direct actions, we are not, as a whole getting the public onside, I wish to point out two basic facts; firstly, that we are ourselves concerned members of the public, and thus having as much right to valid expression as folk who feel that we may be targeting the wrong areas- I feel research rather backs us up more than mere opinion.
Air travel is the most polluting form of transport- should anyone wish to tackle the pricing of Virgin train fares, I fully encourage them to do so- they are nothing more than blatent profitering.
In the absence of a government which will neither address an out of control surface based public transport pricing system, and one which, through massive tax breaks subsidises the air travel industry to the tune of 9 billion pounds a year, direct action seems about the only answer.
We are talking about global warming here- a matter which outweighs people's self assumed "rights" to get from a- b at a low price.
As to the author of number 7's comment, I do not even wish to start to give credence to comments that if we had more roads, fewer (sorry- "less"- people are quantitave, not some indeterminate mass, as denotd by the term "less"- and before anybody critcises my spelling post grammitci pedantry, I am fairly severly dyslexic, so bear with me...) people would use air transport...
This is not a joke- we need to get over this selfish notion that we have some in built right to fly between UK and easily accessable mainland European destinations.
I will, in the mean time, make myself unpopular with areas of the British Public who feel that their ease and commodity is worth more than a rocketing increase in Co2 levels.
This is real, this is happening, and I'm terribly sorry if people who fly from London to Edinburgh are either upset, offended or mildly disadvatged by this.
This shouldn't be a battle- for any of you who wore a "Make Poverty History" band last summer, take time to look at any charity who's work focus's on the develpoing world's stance upon climate change.
If, after that, you still feel that the rights of the leisure and business air travel clients outweighs this, then, as an advocate of freedom of speech, I welcome your replies.
In the mean time, I shall carry on- as will many others, until we either lose, or turn around attitudes to the degree that we can start to reduce emmisions.

Vikingar or Beverly I don't believe you. If you are an Immigration Solicitor then It is clear why so many cases fail, you should not represent people if you are prejudiced against them. There is a clear conflict of interest. I think you are trying to mislead people.

There is nothing in the post that would lead me to believe you are telling the truth. What qualifications do you have, how does your roll work, what restrictions do you have, who pays your wages?

If you are really an Immigration solictor why are you awake at five in the morning. I think you are vikingar but I don't think vikingar is Beverley. I don't think there is any such person as Beverly. Misinformation is something the BNP are good at. Why would vikingar suddenly accidently post as Beverley, it does not make sense. Like me Vikingar must tick the remember me box. Like Dimitri, you do not ring true.

Beverleys use of language is the same as vikingars. Dimitri's use of language is inconsistant to say the least. In my job I have to prepare cases for representation, it does not take long to work out when people are being untruthfull. Often people think they need to lie because they have listened to some idiot, usually all they need to do is just be truthful. I have to dig very deeply into peoples circumstances and consider a lot of written evidence from numerous sources. Inconsistancies become apparent very quickly.

Misinformation is a tactic used by the far right on a regular basis. If you are right why do you have to pretend to be an Immigration solicitor.

Peace, Love and Equality.