成人论坛

Instead of knee-jerk reactions and obvious horror at each successive crime, isn't it time to undertake a dispassionate analysis of all such crimes. Start by classifying them according to a range of categories, such as type of background e.g. single parent upbringing, drug-related, ethnicity - that's right, it's time to drop the dangerous pc stuff and examine and question the real world that we are now living in if we are to focus on real causes and real solutions.

I am totally cheesed off with the way the ministers of today are totally hand tied with the govening body of the European Government and the Human rights legislation. If we were not in Europe would we still be governed by the europeans? If we are in Europe why can we not send that murderer back to Italy from where he belongs? Its not as if we are sending him to a third world country.
I would personally like to come out of europe all together and bring back capital punishment to murderers, also discipline to schools because that is where most of the crime stems from.
We need somesort of deterent to stop these people comminting crimes, if the isn't any I am not surpirsed that people are talking of anarchy!!!

No wonder people are leaving this country in such large numbers. Our government is happy to spend billions on The EU but scrimps when it comes to policing.The British born public are becoming a forgotten breed.

Peter Gizzi Gillingham Kent

our guardians do not guard us.

justice in the Republic is based on the idea that each person finds what they are good at and sticks to it and minds their own business and does not stray into areas for which they are not equipped.

if our guardians do not know the art of guardianship then they should be replaced by those who do? They are in the wrong job which is an injustice to both them and us?

If ever there was a need for 'joined-up government', this is it. The solution, if there is one, will not come from one government department but across several; justice, education, health, employment, social security and local government. Money that would, in the future, be spent on keeping offenders in prison could be spent now on early intervention to deal with misbehaviour in schools or on providing meaningful employment training for school 'drop-outs'.

Money that the health service will need to spend on dealing with drug and alcohol problems - and money that will be spent on policing them -could be used now to provide healthy alternative activities for young people.

Business should be involved too. Money that is spent by local councils and private enterprise clearing up the mess left by drunks and vandals could be better used to increase policing and, hopefully, prevent the trouble in the first place.

Let's get some perspective on the subject of crimes of violence.
Life for the young has always been full of violence.
I can go back sixty years and remember the violence of those days in Liverpool. We did not have access to guns the way they do today, but we did have knives, air guns, bows and arrows, if these were not handy we used bricks and fists.
Most days we had either individual fights or gang fights.
However, we knew that if we were caught doing wrong we would be punished. Not dragged into court, the local police would give you a hiding and send you home, there your parents would carry on where the police had left off. In other words we had discipline and we accepted it.
Teachers in school had the authority to use a cane to instill discipline. Many may think this was barbaric, it worked.
Now that the bleeding hearts screaming human rights have taken away most forms of punishment, trouble is they have not come up with any working alternative. Hence the present break down in society.
Hopefully the pendulum will swing the other way and the old ideas will be brought back.

I'm not shocked by the murder in Liverpool. I wish I was. I doubt that I would be surprised by a similar attack in Bury St Edmunds; where I live.

Emily Maitlis mentions Rudolph Giuliani and 'Zero Tolerance'. The phrase is an oxymoron and doesn't appear in the Index of Mayor Guiliani's autobio 'Leadership' published in 2002.

Instead, there is a chapter entitled 'Stand Up to Bullies'. Please read it.

It really is jolly simple. The liberal weltanschuang has it that all people have human rights. It is terribly bad to spank children, terribly bad to deport murderers. We should only rely on the use of the carrot. People are fundamentally good.

This is an error of monumental proportions. Homo sapiense has two sides - a cooperative, good side, and an evil, selfish side. Communism failed because it ignored the selfish element of human nature. The liberal movement makes the same error, and is frighteningly now the dominant world view in the west.

It needs deconstructing. With rights come responsibilities, and it is wrong to expect people who don't take those reposnisibilities seriously to simply reform. If you step out of line, you should feel the full force of society's wrath. Discipline. Beat the miscreants. Do something really unpleasant to them, rather than sending them to a training camp for bragging and further misdemeanor.

You commit a crime? You forfeit your rights.

This is a law and order problem pure and simple. The Establishment won't let it be seen as such, because it would highlight the main link between these crimes-they're predominantly carried out by immigrants or those from immigrant communities. Hence the Police hold their ridiculous press conferences, 'appealing for the public to come forward with information', when they themselves refuse to give us any, in particular, descriptions of the wanted men.
We can only conclude that the Police and their political masters, don't want to catch the perpetrators, as much as they don't want to be caught pointing out that there are many immigrants at large in the country who are armed and dangerous. Presumably this is because they reason that this would be to play into the hands of their political foes. Thus we must hope that our media have the integrity to highlight the facts, and end the suppression of concern about immigration, before millions of voters turn to the Far Right

Labour are a complete joke. They constantly say that crime is reducing in the UK. This is a complete load of rubbish. Why don't the politcians get out on the streets to see what is really happening on the street.

just cut the soft approach, zero tolerance.
the people have no respect for the modern police force and set deterants.
these problem areas should be put under military law and national service should be brought back.

This is what you get when the only recognized value in a society is the material value. This is what you get in a godless society. Introduce religious education in schools and you will see the results.

i think people in goverment are in a comfort bubble,making rules for people in the real world.they allow the evil dregs of humanity to get away with the life they enjoy,i'ts nothing to do with poverty or oppertunity.these people just love to destroy they have no repucussions for their crime.in fact some are better of when locked up .if i was in power here are the punishments i would give.murder hang them.theft loss of one hand minor crimes bread and water.all punishments to be shown live on tv
yours cincerely i mcgruer

Use of guns in our streets is a copy-cat crime from the model of the USA.

This government, and Blair in particular, have encouraged the population of the UK to follow that of the USA with consequent results similar to those experienced in the USA where the crime rate is high, and prison rate is high.

I have just watched your programme and agree that father's do not always feel a commitment towards their children. However this has nothing to do with marriage. Give single mothers a break this is not a working class issue it addresses all classes and is primarily concerned with a commitment to fatherhood and a demonstration of the fathers role within a family. There are mothers of all classes who have been abandoned by their husbands and been left to fulfill the role of two parents. It is a huge task too much for one person to manage.

Increasing legislation to fight violent crime is only closing the door after the horse has bolted. Unless we teach our children WHY it is wrong to harm another person, there is little reason for them to avoid doing it when they feel disenfranchised, angry or hurt. Similarly, young men and girls have little idea why they should develop committed long-term relationships. When we raised our children on the 10 Commandments and with a fear of God they knew there were lines that should not be crossed. Now they fear and respect no-one and acknowledge no greater authority. We have taken away the source of our morality, the Christian values that our country was built on. In doing so we have stolen their security and robbed them of the reason for their existence. Little wonder they live only for today.

I think John, (sorry but I didnt get his surname) from the Sun spoke so much sense. It's about time the authorities stopped pussy footing about with young offenders and their families and started hitting them hard. Back in the 40's and 50's we didnt have these problems - why? - because there was discipline where yobs got punished properly and also did national service. If the messages go out to the community that you will suffer if you do wrong then it will very soon stop - the human rights laws sadly have a lot to answer for too!
Bring back the big stick and John for PM!

Unfortunately my mother died when I was 8 years old (1971)) and my eldest brother held the family together (he was 19 at the time) the other biggest influence I had was our teachers at school. Please give Teachers back the repect that they used to have. Then when

Well said, Frank Hutton. Bring back the death penalty for murder. Bring back the birch for anti-social behaviour - and use it on the parents of the offerders as well - and cut off the their benefits which the taxpayer is paying.

Why is it that approxemetly 60% of the prison population have learning difficulties. Has the education sysem let these individuals down. I believe that this is the case and this is another reason why crime has risen within our communities. I have just completed a university degree on ADHD and the link between crime and antisocial behaviour, the evidence was an overwhelming, "yes" So why when the government know this information, have they not put more resources into this problem.

what is wrong? Why does this country move away from Christian beliefs, the home and parents a stable relationship is important to the upbringing of a child. No amount of laws will help the children there are not enough police to enforce these laws. Police forces are being asked to make savings when they should be empowed to provide more officers on the streets.Crime and drug problems are in the smallest villages. Can any govermnet turn this tide of crime. I weep for our nation. No wonder people are leaving.

I have just watched the debate with the panel of 'experts'. Why does the 成人论坛 persist in wasting air time, and licence payer's money,by using wholly inappropriate speakers.

I refer firstly to Ian Duncan-Smith who is a member of the party that created the underclass where this kind of crime and lawlessness is a fact of life,and then feigns deep concern.

Secondly, John Gaunt a highly paid rabble rouser, who taks of personal responsibility, whilst working as a lead columnist for a newspaper that has contibuted to the lowering of moral, social and intellectual standards where such responsibility has become exceptional.

Hypocrites both.

成人论坛 Newsnight, please use your resources more effectively, if you wish to continue to be taken seriously.

We have an endemic problem in our schools/society of poor gross motor skills, poor links between the sensory sytstem, particularly vision, and the brain. Consequently young offenders are trapped in primary age behaviour, but allowed access to guns and drugs.
We can screen for these problems, we can cure these problems by the time achild is 7 or 8 years old, but it is nearly impossible to get the Government or the media to engage with such a concept.
The 成人论坛 will probably block this message, they certainly won't investigate it any further - but I keep e-mailing you because one day we really must get to grips with this idea and cure children instead of wasting their lives in the low skills, badly behaved underclass.

Are we all been prosessed like our food.30 years watchin with interest current affairs programs .
Talk + debate = zero action, main topic off debate = zero tolerance,
zero + zero = nothing & we are living in a do nothing society.

Again 30 years watchin learnin politcs = TV
Police = TV
11 YEAR OLD SHOT DEAD ON TV REPORTING LIVE FROM THE SCENE HERE I AM SURROUNDED BY 20 ARMED POLICE MEN AND 15 UN ARMED POLICE MEN AND WOMEN
WHY 4 TV.
EVERY TIME THEIR IS A SERIOUS CRIME ARE THE TV STATIONS AND POLICE FORCE LINKED .
ANSWER YES THE LINK IS THEY BOTH TURN UP AFTER THE EVENT.

I am shocked not only at the murder in Liverpool but at just how long it has taken for some people at the top of their game to realise that a holistic approach to youth crime is the only way forward. Many of us who work in communty projects know that anger is usually the fuel that drives young people into crime. So let's not let OUR anger over what happened in Liverpool, as horrific as it was, blind us to some of the causes of youth crime and the possible solutions. There has never been a more opportune time to act - when I heard an ex conservative leader talking about supporting the families and working to build self-worth and self-discipline in young people in community projects I knew there was hope. (Ten years ago it would have been a lift-wing labour back bencher saying these things). This is the country's moment to turn all the rhetoric and pledges into positive effective action. I hope Gordon Brown listens to those whose advice and experitise he seeks, because maybe, just maybe then we'll see some miracles...

Bring back the birch for anti-social behaviour - for the parents of these delinquents as well - and cut off their benefits which the taxpayer has to pay; and bring back the death penalty for murder.

as a single mum i am sick to death of loan parnt families handed the blame for these terrable acts of violence children are displaying. with nothing being said about the decline of the water shed, that you can turn the tv on and witness something at really any time of day, thats not even giving concideration to the levels of violence displayed in computer games, music or any of our youths cultures. i'm a single mum as i say but i also install the importance of family regardless of whom makes this family up, and during your discussion i watched to night in one way you were saying that children should be proud of there achivements (which i agree with) yet lets put the blame on single parents. make them feel ashamed of their marrital status, so they are not taught the skills need to pass on this sence of pride and mental well beng. i also live in social housing on an estate and i have to say although the kids on my estate are quite often in trouble with the law thay are good kids a little miss directed and a little confussed about the acceptable way to behaive. i spend a lot of time on my close with my own children and have got to understand the elder kids pattens of behavior and i have to say the two things that are lacking is, empathey children are not taught this, this to my mind is an impotant life skill, they are not taught to be proud of WHO they are and there sence of identity is quickly snapped up by the lattest rap song, and they are not shown by out side forces ie the media there worth. i see how much easier it is to blame single parents and the decline of the family for every thing thats wrong in the world, however as i have studied sociology i under stand it's not the people in the family which produce the whole unit but the understanding of what the unit is about and the sanctaty and saftey which is or should be behind the actual vale of the family not who's it's members are, maybe if this was inforced instead of the ideal that the only sort of family that can produce successful offspring for the production of the next generation, has one mother and one farther.

Are we concerned because we suspect we are not setting a good example to young people either in the media and/or in our famly life? Negotiation and longterm commitment seem to be out of date in many quarters and much more publicity is given to bad behaviour than good. Our youth orchestra shows young people can be terrific.

I watched tonight's debate and it really is a depressing state of affairs.
I agreed with Jon Gaunt that not all kids from dysfunctional backgrounds are nailed-on to be violent criminals. I expreienced the most horrendous upbringing, yet I've never been in trouble. It has damaged me but I've never damaged others and used it as an excuse.
You don't need to be bright or loved to know the difference between right and wrong, it ought to be instinctive. There is no excuse for this type of crime.

I am really sad that a little boy has been shot and killed because of the rise in younger and younger children being influenced through violence. It really makes me sad and it hurts as I know what it is like to have a relative murdered. I know what it is like to lose other family members from cancer and heart disease so I know what is like and my heart goes out to that Rhys Jones, but when you read. When you have finished reading this no doubt you will probably think......yes another holier than thou Christian. .......No
What is responsible for the rise is crime is what we allow and don鈥檛 allow our children to do, we are in a fatherless generation. I am not a mum but I know that being a mum is the hardest job in the world. No I don鈥檛 judge because I grew up with my mother, who died when I was 15. But believe me if I had dared speak back to a policeman or neighbours mum was very strict.
We are living in a society where, it seems to be socially acceptable to visit the local clairvoyant to speak to a dead relative or have your tarot cards read to get your future told, when these are all lies by the enemy. Do yoga to ease the mind, have abusive programmes on before the 9pm watershed, even I just caught the end of Philip Schofield presenting a programme on past lives, then we lie to children about Santa. We seem to be accepting that it鈥檚 okay to worship other gods and have idols. We send our children out trick or treating for Halloween and think it is just some harmless fun. Then it seems to be okay to have white witches on our television screens, or someone doing star signs etc, then you get people studying angels, if they only knew what they were studying they would be shocked if the masks were to come off.
The enemy is at the root of societies mess, because we glorify in the bad stuff and not realising that how it affects the younger generation, we the give the enemy power to cause destruction. He does three things to kill, to steal and to destroy.
A relationship with Jesus that will change Britain for the better is the only way to change lives. Yes he sends his angels to protect us, but also people have free will and do what they want if they do not have guidance from god. God loves us so much that he sent his only son to die for us, not because he was bored one afternoon and thought he would do a party trick. Jesus dies to give us our life back and ever since he has been sitting waiting for us to call upon him.
Nicki Cruz is a well known evangelist who before being saved was one of New York鈥檚 toughest criminals, drug dealers and pimps in the 1970s. But was captured by Jesus and now has a massive congregation and leads people to Jesus. But Hackney council prevented Nicki Cruz from speaking to young people about changing their lives.

there are not enough activities avaleable for young people that are creative and engageing.they already have the option of stealing a motorbike and taking crack.this is obviously a very exiting thing to do and waiting in a youth club for a go on a knackerd pool table dose not compete.when i was 16 i had three jobs and what little spare time i did have i was able spend entertaining myself with the money id made.i dont agree that we are gripped by gang culture and anti social behavior the reason young people behave the way they do is because they are young full of energy and have nothing to do.we need to 1.FORGIVE THEM FOR BEING YOUNG.2 COMMUNICATE WITH THEM 3. ENGAGE THEM IN CREATIVE ACTIVITY THAT DESPERSES THERE ENERGY.(the word job springs to mind.

who is to blame:

liberalism within the criminal justice system which was championed by Roy Jenkins, he who was then labour home secretary(1960s)axed the death penalty and replaced it with life for murder, and since then we have a justice system that is geared up for the benefit of the criminal, the lawyers and armies of probation officers but leaves the victim alone, abused and angry and the ever repeated sentiment that justice has not been served fully, with daily examples of inadequate sentences for serious crimes on our media outlets. Criminal activity has no real consequence any more, other than the agencies speedy response to rehabilitate the criminal, the only winner is the criminal support groups with full time employment guaranteed.
Can you imagine the heartache of the parents of the young boy and what they must be going through? can you imagine in 7 or 8rys time when a lawyer mentions the human rights act clause blah blah,or fights for the release of a young man who killed your child, how would you feel? try and put yourself in that situation. it really is time to consider a radical overhaul of our criminal justice system...the death penalty must be the first thing that be reintroduced, and let it be known that a civilized society will not tolerate acts of extreme violence, right down to 'throwing sausages at pensioners..

This programme was fine if it is to be followed up, coherently and over time, by a deeper exploration of the positions presented by the participants.

If not, I fear that all the programme may have done is further entrench us in our prejudices - which prejudices, in my view, form a fundamental part of the causes of our social failure.

Thanks.

Why did the contributors to this latest newsnight debate specifically fail to mention the role of race in gun crime, drugs and gang culture? It is this kind of evasion which has prevented any effective action in these matters. A similar situation exists when asppects of morality, family values, marriage and the general degeneracy of our culture - through "celebs", raucus pop music, "gangsta rap", over sexualisation of children etc - are discussed.

The New Home Secretary's 'out of studio imput' was very poor... she showed weakness, flannelled her answers & methodology to fix the increased crimes on our streets.Could not give straight answers to EM Qs.. rolling out the old mantra of crime being down...these statistics are just not believable!She also noticably squirmed when confronted with IDS's "Broken Families" policies were mentioned.
And if they(1 of the 10 ?) try to legislate forcing witnesses to give evidence the lawyers will be in a for another BIG payday!

Not "Fit for Purpose" JS over -promoted to one of the Cabinets most important posts.... but suppose she does GB's beckoning!so thats it then.
But I bet,the old guard of "Home Office" discarded ministers are just waiting for her to make that BIG mistake....the body language shows no love lost there!

Last evening about 11pm I attempted to make a comment but as soon as I had posted it, I was forbidden from commenting.

Is there some kind of censorship going on?

Last evening about 11pm I attempted to make a comment but as soon as I had posted it, I was forbidden from commenting.

Is there some kind of censorship going on?

In attempting to post this note I was told "In an effort to curb malicious comment posting by abusive users, I've enabled a feature that requires a weblog commenter to wait a short amount of time before being able to post again. Please try to post your comment again in a short while. Thanks for your patience."

Why me?

csharp commented (6:30 23/08) "our guardians do not guard us". A child's primary guardians are parents and immediate family and some of these are evidently not doing a job of guarding. All adults are guardians to children. Unfortunately, vast numbers of people are adult by age but not by action. The more prominent and powerful such people become the more is their responsibility to demonstrate their right to be described as adults. Advertising companies are run by adults (in age) but those who promote foodstuff, toys and think "pester power" is good are shirking their responsibility as guardians - they do not deserve respect. Similarly adults who promote behaviour and opinion - in magazines, television programmes, films and music (no doubt in the name of 'entertainment' and of course financial gain) that can result in anti-social behaviour are as guilty as those caught on the street. One young man, commenting on guns in last night's film report said that we were ten years behind the USA. The Newsnight interviewer asked if this was good, to which the reply was "I don't know". A huge array of adults, including his immediate guardians have contributed to his inability to work out whether the US passion for aggression is "good". As so often happens in these debates reference is too often made to US society. We are in Europe - so, where was the experience of our continental neighbours and of societies that better understand the notion of Guardian and Adult. And if you want to go across the Atlantic - go to Canada, a far more civilised society.

There just doesnt seem to be a single right answer to the youth-anarchy worry. But how about this idea: there are certain things in life that you cannot choose, particularly in relation to your early up-bringing. By all means, intervene with the parents and help them develop a sense of self-awareness and responsibility, but how about offering all young children the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument in school? It will help them channel their energy constructively, develop a sense of focus and discipline with their practice, enable them to participate sociably in group work (dare I say it, perhaps even across different social divides) and to develop the means of constructive and effective self-expression.

Introduce care in the schooling system.Employ teachers who teach and dont just give free lessons and ignore pupils in low classes.Who dont just expel a problem and carry on.

Make worthwile grades achievable for these people...so they have a level of self worth and can see that it's worth staying in school in order to get a decent job and progress.

From a personal experiance.In my school,(sadly not private) being in a lower class meant not being, allowed to learn an instrument. The school not wanting to cough up the money so I could get a certificate of food hygiene like all the other pupils and not being allowed to learn German or woodwork.or achieve any decent grades.All this and generally being ignored by teachers led to antisocial behaviour for me and most of my friends.

If these asbos were educated, properlly in school and not just ignored, given achievable worthwile grades. Then they would stay in school and antisocial behavior on the streets would reduce.

Sir, The hang'n'flog'em brigade are out in force with Gaunt John leading them on. To work for a newspaper that has lowered standards since it began makes him look foolish and he only appeals to the tabloid mentality. America has the death penalty, 99 year sentences, gun crazed kids running amok and still crimes go on rising, how does John defend that? I know the estate, my daughter lived there for twenty years, on one side of the road you have middle class respectability, manicured lawns, decent cars on the drive, most people in jobs yet within spitting distance you have an estate with unemployment through the roof, third generation on benefit, teenage hoodie gangs, kids left to fend for themselves long after their wealthier bretheren are long into their beds....and it has been going on for years. This does not excuse the horrible event of this terrible murder but the difference in aspirations from one housing estate to the other does bare some scrutiny. Hand-wringing will not solve it, only an injection of resources and jobs for idle youth will start to address the issue. More police and vigilance by neighbours would help. Steve

Perhaps it's time we actually started punishing criminals instead of letting them off with a caution or pathetic "jail" sentence?

We've had years of middle class people who think they have a divine right to tell us what to eat, what to drink and banning us from that most heinous of crimes smoking in doors whilst criminals of all ages have been protected from true justice by the human rights laws those very same middle class idiots introduced in the first place!

I guess I must be old fashioned or something because I truly believe we need to actually make the punishment fit the crime!

Perhaps the methods we use to quell unrest in Iraq could be applied in trouble spots in UK? Why are we so harsh on the people in Iraq and so soft on those who tote knives and guns in gangs in UK?

No amount of new legislation "cracking down" on offenders will remedy a situation which is fast deteriorating. The root cause is the failure of politicians over the past 30 years to support stable family life - indeed actively undermining it by a variety of measures.

With the disappearance of family life, values such as respect, service and care also vanish.

Politicians thought they had found some kind of philosopher's stone with the equality agenda and the Human Rights Act. In fact they have been applying a powerful solvent to all that used to bind us together.

It is not so easy to put right as it is to pass a few more Criminal Justice Acts. But unless the government gets a grip and starts promoting stable family life as an essential component of society, through schools, religion, national service of some kind, we will finally arrive at a society which no longer makes any moral distinctions between good and evil, for to do so in any way is to discriminate....and that's unfair!

The problem here is the wider social system. As the representative from Kids Company said on the programme, we are failing the children in this country. Why would they be afraid of going to prison when as far as many of them can see, all they have to look forward to is a life of Poverty, social breakdown and drugs. School has to be the start of this, and the prolem as i see it is that so many of our teachers (and those i mt who are training to be teachers) are not really Passionate about the children. they believe, as does the rest of society, that some are going to 'do well' (i/e/ go to university) and some are not. those who are not are worthless to society - this obsession with univeristy (created by the ridiculous Labour policy of trying to get 50% of young people into the Higher education system) is a total disaster. It has killed off all of the opportunity that was available for those who were not suitable candidates for acadmeic study.
Schools are as much to blame - we need to wholly reorganise the system -for example, every lecturer in university knows that it is impossible to concentrate for more than an hour on lectures - so why to we try to force kids to do this? - And they're learning subjects that mean nothing to them and are of no use to them.
Individually tailored education, real opportinuties outside of the traditional University route, Valuing of ALL young people as human beings is what we need., Perhaps when they feel valued, and perhaps een being to feel human for some of them, at the very least, they might not feel in such dispair that the only way they have felt part of somthing in their life is to join a gang. At least in gangs they are Someone - not just numbers / failures/ no-hopers.

We do not elect brain surgeons to the job nor astronauts, nor generals in the army yet we expect democracy to deliver someone competent with managerial skill sets in high offices of state when that is not the skill set they are chosen for as candidates.

We could [and in my opinion should] make it a requirement that anyone seeking political office should demonstrate the relevant skill sets. If you want to be in the FO you need to have done a course in international relations, the treasury in economics etc. Thus by instilling minimum guardian skill sets and improving their standards we improve our society?

Little has been said here about witness intimidation. The police protection system is expensive and people worry about its reliability. There may be a simple remedy in law - How about reversing the presumption of innocence if intimidation is attempted?
Why would any innocent person want to prevent a witness saying what he saw? So it is logical and more in the interest of justice, if the accused is presumed guilty after there has been an attempt to intimidate a prosecution witness.
This would change the name of the game entirely. If the burden of proof, beyond reasonable doubt is put on the accused to prove innocence, the chances of being convicted are greatly increased and serve him and his friends right for trying to intimidate someone from telling the truth.
Of course, there would have to be safeguards to prove that intimidation did really take place, but witnesses might fell easier were they to be sure that there would be a sanction on the accused if he or any of his friends were to try something.

This is going to sound daft or at best woolly but I think the problem with this country, and the world in general runs very deep - and is not at all new.

In my view the problem of what to do with our bored youth steams from the fact that we humans no longer have to spend all day keeping ourselves alive. The invention of agriculture changed the way humans lived, initially giving us a lot more work to do, but once we got good at it, the work diminished, populations grew and we had to find something else for folk hanging around the fields to fill their time.

A very early solution was to bundle them all up in to gangs and make them fight each other - we called this act 'justified war' or 'national service' but the main (if unconscious) result of this was to keep the unemployed out of the hair of people who had stuff to do or who could cope with doing nothing without causing problems for others. This pass-time rapidly got out of hand as the centuries progressed.

Another solution was education. Keep kids off the streets while they learned how to cope with doing nothing. Then, once they grew too old for that, stick them in front of mindless machines to keep the thinking at a manageable level. But, the kids grew too clever, the machines became too advanced and now nether method of keeping people from worrying about what they could be doing works any more.

I do not advocate the other great diversion - that of religion. I call for something totally new.

It is time we as a species come up with an answer - or more likely a very large number of answers - maybe one for each of us. Now that it is technically possible for us to live well without producing any food ourselves or even building our own homes, once we have enough money to keep covered and fed we have to really face the big question of 'what can we do now'. I used to ask my Mother that when I was five - twenty times an hour. In that way I answered my own question - annoy my Mother, but I am almost too old for that. My children think I am boring, but I am happy doing what they call nothing for long periods. I think I am relaxing, or enjoying the fruits of my labours - even just enjoying nature or simple existence, my kids soon tire of this and stop me.

We can't keep on raising school leaving ages, can't start any more wars (as we have run out of money) and can't keep producing rubbish in factories because of the waste and pollution that results and the exhaustion of the raw materials used in the process. Religion looks like the safest remaining option, as could be drugging everyone out of their minds.I want a better way.

Here is the woolly bit - I want society to start thinking deeply about deep things; art, philosophy, interpersonal relationships even sport if you really must, music certainly - that sort of thing. Or, soon we shall destroy the very fabric of our world to the point were we once again have to work all day just to stay alive - many of us will fail there too.

I am German and I do not understand why English people talk of "ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOUR" if someone is a criminal. If I think of "antisocial behaviour" I think of people talking while eating or spitting a chewing gum in the street. Also "ASBOS" sounds to me like a supermarket. Instead of forbid criminal behaviour immediatelly people are talking about the right name and parents who cant cope. My advise take all hodded jumpers from the market and bring everyone to prison with a gun or a knife in the pocket.But then you do not have enough prisons. ... Send them to an island near australia like 500 years ago.

"This evening, the big questions are tackled head on: What causes violent crime? And how do we stop it."

Like many "big questions" asked in the media, this question preempts the issue, by presupposing that we must isolate special causes of crime. It is not the existence of crime that needs special explanation, it is the existence of civility. The crowning achievement of western civilisation.

The vast majority of human history is little short of a bloodbath, and the closer we live to the hunter gathering lifestyle for which we evolved the more brutal it gets. Every generation of children is an army of little barbarians, desperately in need of civilising, else they grow large enough to prey on and persecute others.

In the absence of adequate law enforcement and punishment, anarchy reigns and nobody is free from the arbitrary will of those who are stronger.

The response is to posture, to make and fulfil violent threats of recrimination, to join in ever larger groups for mutual protection from would-be exploiters. In such a culture, "respect" is a synonym for "fear."

The solution is the same everywhere: change the incentives, by enforcing laws and handing out strong punishments. It is only when crime doesn't pay, either in monetary profit, or in "respect," that criminal activity diminishes.

I sometimes feel when listening to so-called "criminal-experts" in the media, that they think criminals commit crimes out of obligation to give "criminal-experts" something to do, or are driven by some mysterious compulsion caught from "society," as though catching a cold.

And I am dismayed by the neverending chorus of pundits, deploring that we are putting more people in prison than ever before, and using that fact to berate those who believe prison is the answer to reducing crime.

It hardly requires any extraordinary skill to understand: if we put 2 times as many criminals in prison today as in 1950, yet the crime rate is 5 times higher, that crime pays better today than ever before.

I never cease to be amazed at how few pressure groups, special interests, ideologues and politicians, understand that policy changes equal incentive changes. Their crusade since the 1950s to reduce prison numbers, costs and methods has had devestating consequences on the millions of innocent victims since.

If you pass laws that make it more difficult to send criminals to prison, you do not get a smaller prison population. The change in law changes the incentives, and so crime becomes less risky and more profitable--more people turn to criminality than ever before!

The unfortunate fact is that those who have made these irresponsible and atrocious decisions, are often best placed to avoid any of the consequences themselves. The many whose taxes pay their salaries will eventually be their victim, though little more than a number on the government's crime reports.

Anarchy?
It is the causes of crime amongst our youngsters that must be sought. By the time punishments are being discussed it is too late, the damage has been done. Neither poverty nor bad parenting can be tackled speedily, although of course both these must be faced.
But they belong to a state that believes in settling differences with lethal weapons in wars.
And what about education? Has the way schools are run anything to do with the problem? Is the current league table/testing education scene creating a group who see themselves dubbed failures in their own society, in school? Is the system fascist? How many of the young people involved in violent crime are the failures of this regime of constant testing? Are teachers so busy trying to prepare their pupils for tests that they have no time to concentrate on what really are the basics in a society: how to live peaceably amongst your neighbours, respecting their rights and resources?

Both main political parties have contributed to the mess the country is in, it is not good enough for leftist commentators to blame Conservative policies, and the same goes for right of centre commentators to do the same about Labour policies.

The problem lies in the abject surrender to the lobby pushing for leglislation that criminals should have the same rights as the victims of crime, this opened the door to the idiotic human rights act which deprives the victim their human rights whilst allowing the criminal carte blance.

People should receive human rights zhen they can prove that they respect other peoples, that means not being a criminal.

Simple really, don't you think?.

Isn't it just about time to re-introduce Conscription? Just think of the benefits that would bring? Ease pressure off Social Services, Have more Army personnel for the troubles in Iraq/Afghanistan,Would take a large amount of Lawlessness off our streets.
Further, it would teach the young in our Society self respect which with a lot has totally been missed out whilst at home.
Maybe teach them to respect others in our society and give them pride in themselves?
Prison populations would be Halved overnight!
Unemployment would be down to manageable figures
The Public Purse would have a damn sight less pressure on it.
Maybe confidence in our Communities could be once again brought about instead of the Fear that exists now?

Re-Post 44.
Hi Steve.We could debate the issues that you quite reasonably raise, on the usual Left versus Right way.But what many on my side resent is that whoever is in Govt,we get more and more liberal measures, which,in our model, produces more falling standards,whether in education or on law and order.Then the agenda is set for softer and softer prison regimes for example. Soon the prison reform lobby claim prison doesn't work and inmates need access to Playstations.It's your type of prison that people keep going back to, Steve not mine. I feel people not daring to go back to prison would be best for all concerned, not least the first time inmate. But my real gripe is that when most of us want harsh prison sentencing and conditions, we get progressively less harsh regimes. Some democracy.

Very good program Newsnight ... well judged. Good reporting, good selection of guests & great debate (surprisingly 'the quiet' man was very credible & effective).

British Society has been reaping the whirl wind the liberal left have purposely sown since 1960's.

Other political forces have had their influence, but none so purposefully corrosive & agenda driven than these unelected self appointed 'societual engineers' (unqualified & mostly incompetent, given impact & results of their meddling).

Ultra liberalism has increasingly loosened the control that society, communities, the state, agencies, families & citizens/subjects have over the members of our nation, beyond that which is tenable, in their misguided aspirational pursuance of civil liberties without end or consequence 鈥�. that nears on anarchy in reality.

i.e. has the removal of Corporal Punishment & the notion of 鈥楻ough Justice鈥� led to a direct decrease in abuse & violence against children? 鈥� NO

It鈥檚 directly led to more violence against children & society 鈥� most often by feral children who graduate to become fully fledged antisocial elements or down & outright thugs & criminals.

They neither understand discipline or boundaries let alone the notions of self control, reliance & respect for others.

Our society caught is up in the flipside of 鈥榰ltra liberalism鈥� & a system which enables political cliques (mostly of the left) to overly influence certain policy & the delivery of services against such.

We as a society are not richer for these alleged freedoms, we are downright poorer in many terms.

When feral youth interpret liberal 鈥榝reedoms & privileges鈥� as RIGHTS & ENTITLEMENTS to 鈥榙o what you want, when you want to鈥� without fear of consequence 鈥� should we be surprised?

When the state & its agencies fail to intervene (overly concerned ref PC鈥檌sm, institutional racism slurs/labels & litigious action etc) they are effectively giving a GREEN LIGHT to poor/criminal behaviour, so no wonder the feral youth who grow up to be adolescent adults, who will stop them?

Perversely, when the most likely form of state/agency intervention is to actually prosecute those members of the public who choose to intervene and/or the courts enforce this farce (burglars prosecuting the victim) no wonder the feral youth & 'adolescent adults' (who can read, watch & listen to the news) feel they are beyond the reach of society & the law & when supposed punishments & stigma as seen as 'badges of honour' amongst the 'soldjas'.

Q. do we really have to wait for the yobbish culture equivalent of the July bombings, before government effectively responds & ultra liberal cliques realise they have gotten it very wrong?

In a week when children have been shot (mostly likely by another child), when a child murderer (who is a foreign national) 鈥榟uman rights鈥� are upheld over that of the victims family & the will of the state & vast majority of public opinion? 鈥� are we any surprised that hundreds of thousands of British people (those who can) choose to live elsewhere?

A United Kingdom devoid of Britishness & British values will not sustain British Culture, in this vacuum only lord knows what forces will influence and/or even dominate.

At that point, lets see the Ultra Liberals & the Left ply their aspirational politics on that feral & traumatised society

Enough is Enough, the calls for a 鈥楻enaissance of Rights鈥� continues a pace & only get louder.

vikingar

Anarchy in The UK??? No sadly a psychotic reaction to a society becoming ever more like Orwell's 1984.

Others make the points far better than me above, no not those talking about national service etc.

The word Anarchy is a Greek word meaning No Government (anarchos). ..a social philosophy whose central tenet is that human beings can live justly and harmoniously without government and that the imposition of government upon human beings is in fact harmful and evil.

The song Anarchy in The Uk by the Sex Pistols was a piece of ever so tongue in cheek social commentary written by John Lydon.

Newsnight use/d the word/phrase inappropriately and too scaremonger/drum up fear and response from it's viewers..

Many Spanish Anarchists lost their lifes and comrades fighting the fascists during the Spanish Civil War, just read some George Orwell and you'll see your use of the word is incorrect and extremely insulting to many people.

Gutter press?

Ref proudhon #61

"Anarchy in The UK??? No sadly a psychotic reaction to a society becoming ever more like Orwell's 1984"

Government & agency reaction to encroaching ultra liberalism (e.g. passive & reactive blanket coverage of CCTV monitoring) is natural state reaction to the breakdown of control in society, due to significant sections of the population becoming ungovernable, which is directly linked to the extension of 'rights' that such perceive they are entitled to use (I do want I want to do when I want to).

This negative impact on society is amplified gy the state alarming inability to counter such behave via the CJS & law enforcement (ignore, ineffectual slap on wrist / no prosecution) & members of society inability & unwillingness to influence such poor/behaviour in their communities at source (feral youth, intimidation, fear, prosecution by state if they do intervene).

Therefore, anarchy is the right word & used in the right context.

And those ultra liberals & lefties, who are largely responsible for the breakdown in the very society they have purposefully sought to tinker with (see #60) ..... are in denial (as ever)

Esp ironic as true believers in anarchy are of the Left, what their beef, that the centre right is stealing their thunder (I thought the anarchists would be happy their efforts are being recognised & goals being achieved?) In their own words 鈥�"Anarchy is a word that comes from the Greek, and signifies, strictly speaking, "without government": the state of a people without any constituted authority" [1]

The government, state agencies & society, in the face of this anarchic extension of RIGHTS REGARDLESS & the near removal of natural measure of control by homo-sapiens on their kind (Rough Justice means of response) have been forced onto the back-foot to REACT to events (gather the evidence & wait until a prosecutable offence has been committed) rather than intervene & be proactive,

But such intervention & pro-activity, has been classed by cliques & too many lawyers (which their heads in the legal aid trough) as an INFRINGEMENT on an individuals rights & an excuse for litigious action. But the rights they claim are being abused, are not inalienable rights enshrined in history & law, but such being the result of recent modern introduction & extension of rights, by pressure techniques of cliques i.e. encroaching application of Human Rights in any/all contexts.

People accuse the state of misusing Terrorism Law to control protest (i.e. an overreaction), similar on the flip side, any form of bad/criminal behaviour has the defence calling on HUMAN RIGHTS legislation to excuse the misdemeanours, impact on victim & crime of the accused.

Your argument ref the suitability of words to describe a situation/practice, reminds me about the use of the word 'Torture' which has been abused to encompass all manner of things beyond its original meaning 鈥�. by the liberal left cliques, for their encroaching agenda & used in all manner of contexts 鈥�. the prisoner was exposed to torture (he was denied two lumps of sugar in the 6th cup of tea that day).

Society is reaping the anarchic whirlwind the liberal left have sown.

Definitely one form of climate change the old left deny is happening, another reason why they remain & have been electorally abandoned across 1st world societies & have to influence such by other back door means (high jacking policy forums, ngo, environmentalism, chalk face devliery)

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

Could u please give the comments which were made about one of Jehovah's Witnesses on Thursday, as regards his alleged child abuse as I missed the proper report of this.
thank you

Did it occur to anyone to ask why the UK's yob culture is not shared by other countries in continental Europe? Is it something in the Anglo-Saxon genetic makeup, or could it instead be due to differences in how other countries have arranged their societies? It would be an interesting experiment to transplant some UK families with young kids in the early stages of becoming yobs to Germany, The Netherlands, and various Scandinavian countries and see if the kids grow up to be yobs just as they would in the UK. I suspect they wouldn't. As someone originally from the UK who spent many years growing up in Denmark, my explanation of why yobbism doesn't prevail in these countries is this: People from different segments of society feel that they still have enough in common to treat each other with some basic level of respect. Unlike in the UK. Notice that these countries manage to avoid yob culture without resorting to the "bring back the birch" policies advocated by many commentators here. It is probably no coincidence that poor people in those countries enjoy a higher standard of living (including housing and education) than the poor in the UK do. It figures that people whose lives are more comfortable are less likely to behave as obnoxious yobs, and are more likely to be productive members of society. Of course, this comes at a price, and is paid for through higher taxes. You won't like to face this reality, but societies get what they pay for and if the UK wants to cure it social ills it will cost a lot more money than you will probably ever be willing to pay.

what i find frustratng is the lack of philosophical debate in this country

on the one hand 'culture' on tv more or less always refers to 'the arts'

whereas, 'multiculturalism' has embraced far more than arts and has eroded pre-existing ideological values specifically towards women and homosexuals

the rise of machismo on our streets is palpable

an afro-carribean (sp) youth worker asked about the influence of culture on gun crime talked about computer games

the truth is that both single-parenting and gun crime have been imported from jamaican culture

the solution lies in honestly addressing biology - the role of testosterone outside the political class

if we by-pass the pc brigade the solutions are obvious - music and sport - last man standing - what a huge tourist attraction that could be and so much better than gang warfare

Yesterday, I saw a piece of sad news of a 15 year old young boy being chopped died in Hong Kong. Today, I have watched the 成人论坛 of another saddest visiting of Rhys Jone's parents and I am feeling deeply sorry.
Few questions appear in my mind at that moment. How do these youngsters get guns? Who do supply and for what purposes? What are going on to drive them so crazy to kill?
As my own kownledge, many Triad Society such as "14K trial", "wo-hop-to"and "sun-e-on", they made use of teenagers for killing purposes as under age, they would escaped from capital punishment. In the U.K., if they are over ten and commit murder, they will be prosecuted. Are these youngsters to be made use to do or being controlled to do or just lost their self-control? I don't know how to answer these questions because Rhys was only eleven!!!
Anyway, human beings kill human brings is no good.