Preventing extremism
"I am probably not the person to go into the Muslim community and persuade them". That confession - with the emphasis firmly on the "I" - was the most revealing part of .
It tells us a great deal more than the official response to one of his own Muslim MPs, Sadiq Khan, who has worried aloud that the government might become "the Duke of York - marching all these talented British Muslims up the hill of consultation and dialogue, only to march them down again as very little appears to have changed." You can read his speech . Mr Khan was speaking from his experience as a member of the Preventing Extremism Together working groups set up after 7/7. He was articulating the complaint that the government is not really listening to the grievances of the Muslim community. A charge that was taken up by the chairmen of two Commons committees this morning - both Labour MPs as it happens.
Tony Blair made clear that he thinks this is all beside the point. "The problem", he said, was not what the government had or had not done. It was the failure of the Muslim community to have a "fundamental enough debate". It is, he argued, not good enough for people to say "we understand" the anger of those who commit acts of violence but that we disagree with the methods they pursue. The "whole sense of grievance" must be challenged and is wrong.
You could sense his frustration that he knew he wasn't the man to do it.
I'm 
Comments
It's pitiful that Blair is simply unwilling to accept that his own actions and words have caused much of the distrust many in the British Muslim community feel.
There is not, cannot, never will be, any excuse for the killing of innocents in the name of any religion.
But there's something deeply perverse about watching the man who took tough decisions to deliver concessions to the IRA (though I personally disagree with many of those decisions) in an honourable effort to deliver peace in Northern Ireland resort to soundbites, PR and headline grabbing rhetoric in his handling of this issue.
Of course it probably helps that the decisions which were responsible for the IRA's disgusting campaign or terror were the responsibility of a past generation of politicians.
It will be an unspeakable tragedy if we need to wait another 30 years for someone to admit there were errors in the handling of the current situation.
The Prime Minister does not listen to anyone. Why should he pay any heed to the recommendations of this forum. That being said I must confess as we are talking about the same in the abstract I am unable to express a view on whether the course the government is taking is reasonable. What recommendations are being ignored?
There is something to be said about discouraging the over indulgence of the Muslims. There is a danger of elevating one faith over anothers or indeed the feelings of people who have no faith. The isolation of the disaffected Muslims relates to lack of intergration on the part of certain sections of their community. In the main the poorly educated.
For the record I am a catholic of Irish descent. I remember well being questioned and searched when I gave my name at public buildings/borders and at ports. Being unable to leave a bag at left luggage and watching my parents being subjected to prejudice. We all rose above this recognising that people were frightened and everyone needed to be protected. It was our duty to ensure that violence was never condoned in public or quitely applauded in private.
If the Prime Minister is not the person to go out into the muslim community and peruade them, then I would be interested to hear his ideas for who is. This is a very serious and controversial issue and the PM just seems to be dispelling it as somebody elses job- however I think there are some views of british politics from muslims that simply aren't true any more but are clung on toin an attempt to come up with excuses not to blend with other communities- the vast majority of the British population are not racist yet I think a lot of muslims think they are.
British muslims need to make more of an effort now because for all our faults in this area, we have been the ones making all the efforts which then seem to be taken on board but not repeated by these communities- there is only so much we can do and the rest is up to them and if they do not make an effort to integrate into society and make changes themselves, then racist hostility will continue and increase- and with perfectly understandable reasons in this case
It is incumbent on the Muslim community to integrate into British society, not the other way around.
Being proud of ones heritage does not mean that one cannot make reasonable adjustments to integrate oneself into a British culture.
"It was our duty to ensure that violence was never condoned in public or quitely applauded in private." More than can be said for British Muslims, thousands of whom, according to the latest poll, consider suicide bombers to be martyrs. I take it that's what the PM had in mind when he called upon the majority community to challenge publically the ideas, as well as the methods, of their more extreme brothers and sisters. Keep up the good work, Tony.
Another feeble attempt to pass the buck from a man in denial.
All this New Labour speak of a Muslim "community" should really have people cringing too. It is well known that even when the PM had the oppurtunity to elect who he saw as leaders of the muslim community post 7/7, in order to prevent religious extremism, he ignored their reports findings completely.
The aim of this move is obviously not one to prevent future atrocities but to gain column inches in the tabloids in the coming days. Pathetic.
OF COURSE WE SHOULDDO ALL WE CAN TO
ACCOMMODATE THE MUSLIM POINTS OF VIEW
BUT THEY SHOULD REMEMBER THAT OUR CULTURE HAS EXTENDED AND BEEN BUILT ON
MANY GENERATIONS, AND THEY MUST MAKE
EVERY EFFORT TO EXPLORE THE BASIS OF
OUR CULTURE, AND WAY OF LIFE, WHICH
WE WHO ARE NOT SO YOUNG FIND IT HARD
TO CHANGE
He was articulating the complaint that the government is not really listening to the grievances of the Muslim community.
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The "whole sense of grievance" must be challenged and is wrong.
What more proof could there be that Sadiq Khan is correct than have the PM confirm it in his own words. He's not listening to these grievances because he thinks they're "completely false".
Now you can argue about the extent to which these grievances are justified but it must surely be clear that an outright rejection of them as "wrong" is hugely unhelpful. In fact, this summary dismissal is surely only going to alienate further those Muslims who sincerely believe that their grievences are well founded.
Blair has, yet again, bolstered the credibility of extremist propaganda. He has shown time and time again that he does not understand how to deal with extremism. His policies and actions are, unintentionally I'm sure, making the problem worse. The undeniable result, as confirmed by Peter Clarke at the Met, is that there has been a huge increase in the threat of terrorism to an "unprecedented" level.
For the good of the country, I believe all MPs should put aside party politics and demand Blair's immediate resignation.
The primeminster whilst giving an assured and confident performance is as ever incapable of tackling even the most basic of issues.
I think the media give him a free ride, their are certain new media sites such as guido and Iain dales site who have highlighted further areas in the prescott saga involving possible problems in relation to prescott's interpretation of the ministeral code.
Whilst i would not expect some of the more salacious rumour to make it's way into your broadcasts nick. I think you or your editors are letting the public - the hand that indirectly feeds you down.
You have become a poodle to number 10.
Nick,
Thank God for Tony Blair
The overwhelming majority of Muslims are just ordinary men and women who want to live a quiet, peaceful life. Unfortunately, a small but powerful minority within their community have the loudest voice.
Until the moderates step forward to put a stop to it, the miltants and extremists will continue to embarass and shame the entire Muslim community. A community that without which Britain would be a lot worse off.
Whatever the British Prime Minister might have been meaning to say today, he managed to come across as arrogant, insensitive and frankly dangerously ignorant.
Of course those of us with a Celtic / Anglo-Saxon British heritage have the right to ask those of different national and cultural backgrounds, who have come to live in the British Isles to respect our own culture and heritage. As existing citizens of a liberal democracy we have an equal responsibility to respect the cultural heritage of those, who have more recently come to this country. In order to respect the cultures of others, however we must seek to understand them, no matter how uncomfortable it might make us.
This desire for mutual understanding seemed to be totally lacking from the British Prime Minister鈥檚 comments today. If this is so, then it is shameful. Whatever grievances people believe themselves to have 鈥 and it is not just members of the Muslim community in Britain, who have grave reservations about some of our foreign policy in recent years, no politician should be telling anybody what they ought to feel. The 20th century is littered with the ruins of political regimes, which believed that they had the right to tell people what to feel and think. Is British democracy to come to this?
Individual terrorist atrocities cannot be tolerated but terrorism itself will not be defeated by a war, rather by evolving deeper senses of tolerance, compassion and commitment to justice along with greater willingness to compromise 鈥 all of which require understanding. Thus, the Prime Minister鈥檚 comments today were wholly counterproductive and irresponsible and Labour MPs should respond accordingly.
When are you going to talk about Prescott? Why is the 成人论坛 silent on this. I find this socialist biased broadcasting revolting in the extreme.
Alas, I presume this will be censored.
To comment 8: Obviously the aim of this speech was not to prevent extremism. Coping w/ the causes of religious extremism is obviously not high on the to-do list of this man. This was just a cynical move to attract the tabloids and wonderful people like comment 7 - who really do speak for the majority opinion, unfortunately.
The majority of what the leader of the Labour party says is just spin and disinformation - New Labour has changed politics from being about fifty percent lying to ninety percent lying.
The sorry part of this all is that we're talking about an issue of upmost importance. Blair has shown that he is capable of playing the politics game with national security.
Where can I see the list of Hindu 'grievances', or Sikh 'grievances', or even Chinese 'grievances'? It appears to me that wherever muslims are in the world, they will have 'grievances' where others evidently don't. Surely it is clear from this simple fact that muslims and islam are the problem.
It's difficult to see how the perception of injustice that appears to exist in the Muslim community, along with an increasing sense of alienation from the political process in the general population, will be improved when we have a Prime Minister who, to defend his own actions, will not even consider the possibility that the war in Iraq is widely seen as a huge mistake that has increased the terrorist threat. For him to say only that he "fundamentally disagrees with that point of view" is a completely inadequate response - but what we have come to expect. Yet another reason why he should go soon. Maybe then we can "draw a line and move on."
What the Prime Minister is rightly saying is that his "nanny state" does not have the right to decide who (inc. Muslim) people choose as friends and where they live. What he is admitting is that civil-conflict is the price of human-rights and multi-culturalism. The Prime Minister is now admitting faults in his, and New Labour's ideology.
There has been criticism that PET was a public relations exercise and no more and the reasons for this are compelling; firstly the timing of its inception and secondly the appalling form of the government when faced with unfortunate issues of this kind when a committee or an inquiry is formed in a blaze of hype and quietly buried later.
I can understand that Muslims are upset. However I must echo earlier sentiments that the responsibility, in this case, is for the Muslim "community" to fully and properly integrate into our society.
In the Times poll it is reported that 13% of Muslims believe the 7/7 bombers to be martyrs. This is nothing short of outrageous if the figure is correct. It is time that we took a long hard look at whether this culture and its proponents belong in our country.
It's no good talking as Martin does in the first comment in this thread, as though terrorism and support for it are created entirely by governments: they're not. The IRA decided to use violence - lots of republicans have always been peaceful - and Al Qaeda existed well before troops went in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I think the PM's frustration stems from the fact that there seems to be no one who will speak in the name of Islam, or even as a secular "ex-muslim", who will really oppose or object to Islamic extremism in principle. There are lots of "moderates" - but they often say quite shocking things in fact, like Iqbal Sacranie's views on gays. If you watch TV shows like Sharia TV, which was on I think Channel 4 some months ago, you'll find so-called moderate muslims clerics speaking about civilian hostages kidnapped by terrorists in Iraq as though they were legitimate POWs, and not being challenged at all.
This is the problem: many "moderate" opinion formers in the muslim community actually have views that are simply diluted versions of extremism, quite at odds with democratic values. I wish some brave muslims would actually speak up for a better Islam.
Having listened to excerpts of Tony Blair鈥檚 comments on Muslim extremism and I鈥檓 a middle class white boy. He clearly is not the person to go to the Muslim community and persuade them. Not if he is going to blame moderates for not controlling the extremists in their community. On that logic the Labour government and the Church of England are responsible for racist violence by whites against (in Sadiq Khan鈥檚 words) 鈥渢hose of colour鈥 because they have failed to control the extremists in the white community. It is all a very sad contrast to Mr Khans speech, which was eloquent, reasonable and constructive. Sadly the days of reasonable, constructive, politics are long gone. All we have is a choice between two geckos who will change their skin to any colour or say anything in order to get into power Sadly they have no vision of how to use that power, they just want it.
Andrew
I don't think it's fair to imply that Nick or his column is biased towards New Labour. Since the departure of Andrew Marr political reporting at the 成人论坛 seems to have swung back to the centre. I think there was a problem a few years ago but to my mind the 成人论坛 have sorted that now. (I think they may even have a few people working there who used to be in the Conservative Party!)
James
Just for once Tony Blair is actually right because unless and until there is a true understanding of what the Muslim Grievance actually is then we are going nowhere with the necessary integration of Muslims into the wider British society. That grievance is plainly that the rest of the country is not also Muslim and will not kowtow to sharia and dhimmify the UK as the Muslim groups want.That is why Blair is right to refuse to address these grievances and why Allan@ Aberdeen above is entirely correct when he says that it is the Musloms themselves that are the problem.
All I can say on this issue is that what Tony Blair said on camera has been expressed shortly after 9/11 by others.
i.e. "Why does the muslim community remain silent?"
If that is indeed the case, people from these communities must stand up and express their disappointment for all to hear. Isnt that something the terrorist element will understand?
They surely would understand it far better then such a view coming from Western Governments.
I suspect in some muslim communities in the UK , this has already happened, but it's a message that should be repeated and loudly. I still feel Tony Blair was right to express that view.
I should also add that Tony Blair has already stressed that "terrorist" is not synonymous with "muslim".
Something that should not be ignored.
Blair was talking about removing Muslim's perceived grievances. Why have so many of the comments concentrated on immigration/assimilation/multiculturalism etc ?
As an aging,'WASP', I understand young Muslim's grievances, and indeed share many of them.
Since Blair decided to pervert the 'special relationship' and become a Neo-Con groupie, our once rather independent and balanced view of the Palestine/Israel conflict has become parroting the Bush line, we have the ridiculous and dangerous Afghan adventure, not to mention 'hanging around in Iraq' until Bush gives us permission to leave. For Pakistani ethnics, there is the additional outrage of Blair/Bush supporting and encouraging the military dictatorship, in Pakistan. Iraq must have a 'democratic government' but thats noy for Pakistanis.
But above all, there is the use by Blair of the threat of Al Qaeda inspired terrorism, grossly exagerated, to frighten the UK population into acquiesence, using the terms 'terrorist', 'Islamicist', 'fundamentalist etc interchangeably.
Tony Blair certainly isnt the right person to go into the muslim community because he has no credibility. I think he has finally cracked under the pressure and guilt of what he has started in iraq.
As for this rediculous integration debate, it perplexes me. Maybe integrationalists should give muslim a page of requirements to be certified themselves as 'integrated' and individuals can tick as they go.
I wonder what would be on it?
[ ] Moan about the weather
[ ] Bought the Sun at least once
[ ] Like a beer now and then
[ ] Love eating pork chops
[ ] Dont wear funny clothes
[ ] dont get tooo uppity
I would like to make two points, firstly as has been already pointed out, we never hear of Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist complaints, they seem to be able to happily coexist with our culture. Moslems seem unable to achieve this balance.
Actually there was a problem a few years back about Sikhs not wearing crash helmets on motorbikes, but it was resolved amicably.
Secondly we are a democracy, yet everyone talks about Blair as if he were our ruler, not simply the leader of the Labour party. Blair is just a MAN neither a President nor a dictator. I think there is a difference between Blair speaking as Blair, and Blair speaking as the Leader of the Labour party.
As a British convert to Islam, I feel that Blair is failing to take into account the fact that there are increasing amounts of Muslims who do entirely feel British and embrace British values to the best of their ability. I work full time for the Local Authority, complete with hijab and modest clothing (seen as 'Islamic attire') and certainly see myself as fully intergrated on all accounts. My work actually involves me assisting persons from abroad to ajust and intergration into their local communities. To define my point, Blair must be aware that many British converts or British-born Muslims DO already uphold British values BUT it does not mean that we have to accept or agree upon all aspects of policy and governance. Just as political activists on the left do not agree with those on the right, and vice-versa; I strongly feel that Blair's speech holds an undercurrent along the lines that Muslims should not be expressing any anti-British opinions or views. I do not agree with Britain's continued involvement in Iraq for example, and I am not fearful of expressing this as my researched opinion. Yet, I still feel I remain intergrated into society. But, as a Muslim holding this view; I feel that Blair is suggesting that I am unwelcome in my own country. My suggestion? Perhaps he should deport me!?