成人论坛

Spot-on Nick. Thank goodness for members of the judiciary such as Judge Richard Bray who will still be judges long after this sorry rabble has been consigned to the dustbin of discredited and failed politicians.

New crimes - rising prison population - Suspension of Habeus Corpus - Privatised Prisons - Prisoners, including children, in police cells - and now back to Prison Ships. Is deportation next ?

Is this government realising John Major's dream and taking us back to Victorian values ?

The crises in the prison service only highlights the wider issue of the dire performance of the government. Mismanagement of immigration and the law are key factors in crime statistics. MP's and Civil Servants pay should be directly linked to key performance indicators such as these. Reducing their pay based on immigration and crime results will be the greatest lever to improvements.

Well perhaps, if he learns nothing else from this, Mr Reid will in future fight shy of using weasel words and be specific about exactly what line he wishes the judges to take, rather than condescendingly 'reminding' them of how best to discharge their duty. That's the problem with issuing edicts that are open to more than one interpretation....you run the risk of the recipient taking the opportunity to think for himself.

I think we are seeing a fundamental philosophical difference between the labour and conservative parties at the moment.

Labour generally are in favour of intervention into society, to regulate and legislate the way we should live and behave.

Conservatism generally steps back from that, to allow people to make their own decisions about the way they live their lives.

Interesting how this has changed over the last few years. The first thing "New" Labour did was step back from economic intervention by giving interets rate control to the Bank of England - a policy that would perhaps be more expected of the Conservatives.

However, the longer the labour government stays in power, the increased pressure they feel to regulate - they look round to find something into which they can intervene, often looking foolish.

I suspect when (if?) Gordon Brown takes over, there will be step back towards the right, closing the gap between him and the conservatives.

Should John Reid be surprised at present events? No! He came into the job in a blaze of publicity telling us how the department was so poorly led. A year on and nothing has changed. He has shown the same lack of leadership as everyone else, yet he shows no signs of accepting responsibility. His response is to bully others; should he not be surprised when they fight back? After almost 10 years of Labour rule it is to late to blame the Conservatives now. Labour has to start taking responsibility for its actions, or lack of.

John Reid is the typical soundbite politician. He plays to which ever audience he thinks is listening.

The not fit for purpose statement about the Home Office was designed to buy him time,to be able to say "Don't blame me".
But is the Home office any more fit for purpose now?
Someone should ask Mr Reid how long before the Home Office is functioning in a proper and responsible fashion. If it is still not working after that he should resign.
But I for one will not be holding my breath.

In Newscasts,Question-Time and other programmes we are repeatedly being told by Ministers that new prisons ARE BEING BUILT. Where exacly are these prisons that are under construction?

The Govt have been in post now for nearly 10 years.
With an increase in legislation, and an increase of the criminal fraternity from Europe, this was always likely to happen.
Some people do deserve locking away for our own protection if nothing else.
What now happens to some one who breaches their ASBO? Prison?Very Doubtful.
It looks as though the Home Office adopted the usual 3 P approach to this!

This is one scandal to many, crime is up, re-offending is up, yet we have had no new Prisons built since this awful dictatorship came to power ten years ago.

Dr Reids accomplishment as Home Secratary, has been to thoroughly demoralise an entire work force, simply to grab headlines and lull the public in to a false sense of security.

It's false alright, it's non-existent.

Attacking Judges was a very stupid thing to do in the long run, you're right.

Poor old John Reid. Since he became Home Sec, we've all been waiting for it to go pear-shaped. He really needs to split up the home office asap so that he can blame that for any trouble, claiming any disruption is 'part of necessary reform'.

I don't mean that unkindly (really!). The job of Home Sec has been political death recently, and I heard Ken Clarke say it always was. That means the primary survival tactic is teflon armour. The mistake was thinking that Judges would be a useful decoy. Get oot while ye still ken, Johhny boy!

Well, frankly the MPs have never listened to the knowledge holders or taken note of the wealth of evidence with respect to offending and the amount the CJS can do anyway. Richard Garside's document states the case compellingly (https://www.crimeandsociety.org.uk/opus58/RFWR.pdf), and now Rod Morgan has had enough. We have known for many years that prison is not a deterrent to others and is not effective at reducing reoffending.

Indeed they are; maybe they can't make public pronouncements with pomp and ceremony as politicians can, but - well, I believe that in industrial terms this would be called a "work to rule".

I guess it's looking more and more like Dr John's days at the Home Office are numbered; all we need now is for TB to give him his "full support" and the story will be complete. (Not to mention ruling himself out of the leadership race - and a good job too; we really don't need another leader who will strip us of our civil liberties without a second glance, whilst blaming everyone and everything except himself when things go wrong.)

Would the money that the Olympics is costing be better spend on building new prisons? The muggers and pick-pockets will be heading for Stratford in 2012 for 'open season'.

This is typical labour, they chase headlines not criminals and they may get material gain in short run they mess our country in the log run.

John Reid's bullying nature disguises his incompetence more effectively than most of his Cabinet colleagues, but we now see that he's as out of his depth as the rest of them. This entire 'government' is not fit for purpose, and the sooner we get rid of them the better.

Nick,are we witnessing the absolute collapse of the current political system,have the hardheaded politicians slammed into a brick wall?if the forthcoming election are a disaster in terms of turn out,will there be demands for a new more inclusive political system?would Churchmen,judges and other professional people run the country BETTER?

In my opinion Mr. John Reid is not the man for the job. It looks like he is interested in chasing newspaper headlines than criminals. I have not seen a single acceptance of the government鈥檚 responsibility for all the havoc in the home office. In spite of all this they want to issue new policy, fresh initiative and new directions all the time. The judge was right in citing John Reid letter regarding that as a part of the reason for non custodial sentence. Judges are not responsible for prisoner number or the prison places. I am not very happy knowing the fact that criminals can now not get prison sentence for the crimes they commit.

I'm afraid I've got very little sympathy for Reid. You live by the tabloids, you die by the tabloids.

Didn't Reid say something about 'I'll sort out the Home Office in 100 days'. Well, he's had 3 times that amount and it looks worse than ever. Labour seem to have an 'anti-Midas touch' - everything they try to fix ends up being a lot worse. Iraq, schools, transport, health, crime, immigration, poverty, the Olympics...and now the economy. I can't think of one thing which is better after 10 years - despite billions raised and spent in taxes. The Home Office is just a microcosm of Labour and the country as a whole - a shambles.

Contrary to suggestions that all this is a consequence of typical 'Labour' policy, I'd say that this is a consequence of typically right-wing policy. On the one hand, John Reid and the Government exhort judges to lock up more offenders (a typically right-wing policy), and when the judges duly oblige there's a cry of 'but the prisons are full - don't lock up so many!'.

So what do you expect the judges to do? They are just responding to an incoherent policy, all set in motion by the the tabloid instincts of this government.

"Tough on crime; tough on the causes of crime". Ha! Ha! Ha!

The biggest crime committed has been by the Labour "Government". They are in power, but are unable to manage the machinery of Government.

Does anybody remember 'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime'?

Does Blair and his other incompetents remember what they say from one week to the next?

It is just unbelievable

Much as I detest this government (and any likely alternatives too), I do think Reid should be given, albeit briefly, the benefit of doubt. When a heavy-hitter is bequeathed an absolute disaster, we might expect some well-deserved rough stuff. We might even expect the entrenched guilty 'establishment' to conspire to discredit him by ingenious means. So let's 'read between the lines' here and hope that Mr Fixit can indeed fix it for all of us, whatever his dreadful 'Party'.

I do feel sorry for John Reid. He has been given a dept that hasn't been managed since Labour came to power, at a time when the PM is too weak to give any support. Gordon hates him as a rival.

New Labour is a bit like Enron, you can only spin (lie) for so long before reality breaks out and bites. At Enron thousands suffered a result of the greed and arrogance of a few. Hopefully we can restrict the fallout to New Labour, though the taxpayer will pick up the tab as usual.

Most petty crime is drug related
Which party will risk the (un)righteous wrath of the Mail and the Sun and follow the lead of the Swiss in treating drug addiction as an illness and not a crime.

Results: Fewer criminals
Fewer prisoners
Fewer (and less corrupt) police

Its easy to blame John Reed, well as you say he set himself up, but unfortunately its a much bigger problem than just him. Today its prisons short of capacity, yesterday it was trains short of capacity; last week it was "there aren't enough doctors" (or places in medical schools to begin to address the issue); over Christmas we heard yet again about the shortage of care home places for the elderly because new legislation made previously acceptable homes illegal and too expensive to update; many schools still have 20 year old "temporary" classrooms, most trunk routes are stuffed to capacity except for those who go to work at 2 a.m..and on and on. Yhe only thing we seem to do more of is fight wars and introduce disfunctional initiatives like the child support agency.

With the total tax take now heading for twice that when they came into power this must be the most profligate and incompetent planners of basic infrastructure capacity we have ever had as a government. For that responsibility starts at the top but must also reside with all other long term ministers who have colluded with the policy decisions and priorities set which have brought us to this.

the vultures are circling above the home office, all we need now is for Tony Blair to give his "full support" and we'll know John Reid is on his way.

There is an old saying "the bad workman usually blames his tools", it appears that many of the current breed in this government have acquired the habit. It is always someone else to blame, the example has been set by the noble leader and faithfully followed by his acolytes, Read's bluster is no more than a prime example of the disease.
Sweep the lot away, recall the proposal to waste money on follies such as the over-inflated "Olympics" and similar non-events as exemplified by the Dome supposedly to become the modern equivalent of the Roman Forum viz "keep the masses distracted from reality" .Recall money wasted in Europe building other state's roads, railways and other infrastructure.

This is just another issue where the rights and wrongs get lost in the power struggle. The fact is that judges, authorities, and special interest groups have disastrously interpreted the Human Rights Act in a way that protects criminals at the expense of victims, amongst other things. John Reid is right to hold them to account.

The law, institutions, and politicians are generally out of sync with reality. It鈥檚 not simple, clear, or effective, and poor goals, processes, and outcomes continue to be a drain of both the economy and society. I鈥檓 not impressed by the historical record of the system and support change.

This is a difficult issue and getting lost in squabbles is unhelpful. I鈥檓 interested in hearing how law, institutions, and leadership can be improved to create a better system. Crime and punishment is part of a the cycle of damage. Helping people earn their way out and exacting solutions for the extreme cases seems useful.

When in need learn to Reid...

We seem to be caught in the middle of two conflicting arguments here. As far as I understand it, Rod Morgan is resigning because he feels that TOO MANY people are being sent to prison, while many are angry because they feel that TOO FEW people are being sent to prison.
Unfortunately the present fevered time is unlikely to produce any kind of rational argument in favour of either. To quote some facts, in 1995, when Michael Howard came out with his famous "prison works" there were 41,000 inmates, and the BCS recorded a peak of 40% risk of becoming a victim of crime. Today's figures are 80,000 and 24%. So putting people in prison works. OK, let's build some more. But where? Would you want one on your doorstep? "Oh no, we can't have that, it'll make the value of my house go down..."

Jails full - no problem, the Police will house them. Oops, just remembered Labour doesn't like Police officers either.
There are fewer and fewer real Police officers on the streets as it is, now there will be fewer still. Or will a new sub - class of pseudo Police be recruited and called civilian custody officers? Oops again - Labour have already done that.

If it was not so serious it would be amusing.

It seem to me that the people of this country should be given a voice, this year in a general election. We should not have to put up with a goverment that is so useless. And we should not have to put up with Tony Blair passing the premiership to Gordon Brown. This labour party needs to be removed.

To all of the of the above - your outrage is comical. You are manipulated by the press and the media. Your cries are their meat and that's why there is a new crisis every day so that you'll be kept angry. An editor has decided to make you bark and you have obliged. Whether the bait is Jade or Reid it's the same dumb response and it sells papers.

I am a 58year old male, a retired police officer who has voted in every election both local and national because I felt it to be my duty. I did not vote last time, and the reason, this discredited government has done more to bring politics into disrepute than any other in my memory.
They will go down in history as the 'make it up as you go along' government

Running a country needs smart people in charge. This government does not have enough smart people. It has mainly bullies, wafflers, spinners and sycophants.

Most of us have had a "John Reid" type boss. Unimaginative dullards who hide their incompetance behind bullying, and who got where they are by sheer force of unpleasant personality.

We need much better leaders. Trouble is, politicians are so reviled that no really smart person would do the job.

The current crises are the inevitable results of a government that has always lacked both (a) conviction and (b) integrity.

How can Mr Blair ever have meant to be "Tough on Crime ..." when he is married to Britain's most high-profile do-gooder ?

Where was there any integrity when, for the first two years of their governance, they relied almost entirely on spin to proceed ?

What surprises me is that people appear so surprised that it has happened !

Nick, please remind me. Who was Home Secretary when the Prison Ship Wear was signed-off for decommissioning? Wasn鈥檛 it Dr John Reid? If so, why - when the organisation was 鈥渘ot fit for purpose鈥� - to coin his phrase, is he now ordering two replacement prison ships. If the problem was all the time, one partly of inadequate prison accommodation, should he not own up to being responsible for this latest confused round of reasoning. It strikes me that the reason why Charles Clarke had to be sacked is small-beer, compared to the catalogue of inadequate leadership decisions displayed by Dr Reid since he took over the reins. I think that it is time for him to go - before he makes even more shocking errors of judgement.

To respond to Michael Crompton (who says that pay of civil servants and MPs - though I think he really means ministers, not MPs) should be linked to key performance indicators. Would you also be willing to accept that civil servants and ministers should receive large cash bonuses if performance is good (or should public servants only be punished and not rewarded)? I doubt many people in this country would accept performance bonuses - remember the tabloid hysteria that emerged when it was announced that DEFRA had received 拢7m in performance bonuses earlier this month? That's less than 拢500 per employee per year. One City worker can make more in bonuses than the whole department.

Also, it is not fair to penalise bad performance (or reward good performance, for that matter) if the person does not have control over performance. How then can you penalise poorly performing civil servants, given that every key decision has to be taken by ministers? Inevitably, ministers will take politically expedient decisions, rather than the right decisions - it would hardly be fair to punish civil servants for that. We could remove the power of ministers - but that would mean shifting power from democratically-elected representatives to appointees. Would you prefer that?

The answer? The birch. Prisoners flogged within an inch of their lives and then released to go home, although they'll be unable to sit down. Reid could be flogged too so that he could get a taste of the remedy. This government? I absolutely despair. I remember when Maggie was in power and we had some real prisons and wars that we could get excited about - not this infernal drip drip of wars in places I haven't yet found on an atlas. Granted, my atlas still has Yugoslavia on it but you see my point. Mind you when I see images of that fool Cameron with his cycle helmet and bike clips I do wonder if he has the stomach for a real fight. What's wrong with risking a little brain damage? It never did Tebbitt any harm.

Ten years ago...

'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime...'

What have we got today? Far from that! Not enough prison spaces, the judiciary forced to send people who should be in prison, home for a cup of tea, and a mess at the Home Office. Instead of trying to be a Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister and the Government need to look at the problems at home for a change.

Again another fine mess from New Labour...

Come on now folks! Things can't be that bad on the Home Front. If they were, surely Tony 'Mainwaring' Blair and his dour sidekick Gordon wouldn't be whooping it up with the great and the good in Davos (at our expense) would they? Well?

David Williams in post 22 blames right wing policies for this latest debacle!. Sorry David your wrong, Labour have been in power for 10 long years making us pay through the nose to support their left-wing policies.
David may be wondering why the prison population is so full, well that is due to typical Left-wing policies of jailing white collar offenders and letting murderers, rapists, terror suspects to roam our country in perfect freedom.
As it is Socialist countries who have the highest proportion of citizens in prison, I defy David to prove that right wing policies are to blame.

What on earth was the blogger rambling on about in #22?, I think he must have mixed up the 成人论坛 and Guardian websites?. To blame right wing policies for the mess that left-wing government has left us in is the height of arrogance, but then like the party this person supports (I presume it's Labour)he is out of touch with reality and common sense.

To borrow a phrase from Dr Reid, I would say that blog #22 argument is 'unfit for purpose' and should be retracted.

This is only the tip of the iceberg.

I have warned for many months that our criminal justice system is in melt down. Most cases are either never reported, detected or subject to caution or fixed penalty.

Such cases that are prosecuted(1%)are plea bargained down by the CPS lawyers who are desperate to avoid a trial whatever the cost to society. Bugets are what count.

I urge you to spend a morning at your local courts and see how pathetic the system is.

At last the judges are speaking out but in all probability too late.

The only people good at their work are the criminals. CRIME DOES PAY!

When are we going to learn that essential eighteenth century constitutional lesson in this country that you SEPARATE the executive and the judiciary to maintain a just society? Mr Reid's meddling in sentencing is - like all his predecessors - unwanted, unnecessary and unhelpful. The US`founding fathers (and I hate to admit this) got it right: keep the politicians out of justice. The two just don't mix.

A spokesman for the Home Office on the Today programme this morning claimed that it was very difficult to predict what prison figures would be in the future, sometimes there are lots of prisoners, sometimes there are fewer, so it's to be expected that occasionally prisons will be over-crowded. Seems sensible on the face of it, but then if you create lots more reasons to send people to prison by passing stacks more legislation through parliament, then it doesn't take a genius to realise that you're going to end up with a lot more prisoners. This government have had 10 years to see the logic in that, there's absolutely no excuse for the current over-crowding.

If politicians want to change the way the law operates, they have the mechanism of Parliament for introducing new laws and repealing old ones. If they want to ensure that judges apply the law as they intend it to be applied, then they must draft it in unambiguous language.
Changing the law takes time and effort. "Passing a note" to a judge is far easier. The fact that it violates all principles of the separation of powers is a truth too inconvenient for Messrs Reid, Falconer, Goldsmith and Blair to take notice of.

Great article, again, Nick

Wonder how long Reid can cling on. I guess his leadership hopes have sunk as fast and as deep as the Home Office? I wonder what the Blairites will do without a great white hope on which to pin their expectations of "continuity"?

I think we need to scrap this PC world full of fear that New Labour have created for us and get back to basics.

When it comes to drugs, law & order, respect & just general decency we need to put the old fashoined 'fear of god' into our kids at an immpressionable age. It is not good enough that we wait until we are trying to sort out a 17 year old 'kid' trying to persuade them that what they are doing is not a good idea. It's usually to late by then!!!

As adults we have to take control and teach children what is right and what is wrong at an age that will make a difference so that they will carry this forward through life. This is not happening.

If the public do not perceive a change in our 'justice' system that currently has more consideration for the wrongdoer than victim it is only a matter of time before the word 'vigilante' starts appearing in the news headlines.

Dantes Inferno.

Clearly the entire prison system needs severely reorganising. It is in a shambles. There are simply too many prisoners. Many old delapidated prisons need tearing down. Also remember the terrible conditions our prison officers and staff have to operate under. It must be fixed.
I would imagine that a working party would consist in part of a number of leading judges,nominations from Mr Reid and police specialists, prison service experts etc. A properly balanced committee which could look across the international spectrum to view fresh methods of punishment for many of the lesser crimes. There are good examples of flexible sentencing which take the strain off prisons.
The Norwegians have a system which allows for offenders eg drunken drivers and some other petty offences to work off their prison sentences on the tunnels and roads in winter.
There are jobs that currently those who have served a custodial sentence are prohibited from, such as joining the military . This should be looked at since there are many minor offenders who would do well in the military. It seems such a waste of talent!
The focus needs to be directed at young offenders because largely speaking the more hardened criminals are basically too long in the tooth to warrent saving though I am not advocating a write off for them, quite the reverse, since a prison structure with 50% less inmates would allow many prisoner help rehab programmes to operate, whereas, now its very, very, chronically over subscribed.
We need to grip the problem at the younger input stage because these youngsters deserve to be helped. Often they are from deprived backgrounds and have lost their self esteem. It is our duty as citizens to give them it back. How?
C-far.org.uk seeks to do just that and has reduced reoffending down from 70 plus per cent to something like 25 per cent.That is how.
The entire scheme ought to be adopted nationally.
Left to the system as it now stands we are just breeding bigger more serious criminals often hooked on drugs during their jail terms and once freed must steal to fund their habit.
Our Dickensian jail system must be reorganised with the primary aim of rehabilitation and building self respect and teamwork so that these people can become good citizens and can hold their heads up in society.
A note for the Oliver Cromwell punishment merchants out there. Try locking yourself in your toilet for, say, 3 days just to get a bit of the feel of being banged up. Add to that the stigma of not seeing your family, not having a driving licence, and having lost whatever your assetts were eg house, job, property etc. plus the ever present danger of being viciously assaulted physically, sexually, and mentally. Now think about that and the effect of being jailed for say 6 months or 5 years. Dantes Inferno?
The system is wrong,lets change it.

There's a peerage in this for Reid. It's all going exactly to plan - making sure all the prisons are full before Blair is sent down.
PS: Is it true Cherie tried to book a holiday last week at Branscombe?

Learning from the lack of prison places, the fiascos at the Home Office etc has the Government discovered forward thinking?

I suspect that The Home Secretary's letter to the judges was Cabinet sanctioned because certain Government ministers can foresee themselves up before the judges ccharged with loitering within No. 10 with no intent 鈥� to do anything constructive".

When the judges asks the accused and by then ex-Ministers if they have anything to say before sentence is passed on the miscreants, John Reid pipe up and remind the judge of his earlier missive about full prisons to all of the judiciary and then posit 鈥淧erhaps care in the community, your honour?鈥�

As the 成人论坛 lets the Labour government off the hook time and again its good to see the judges saying it as it is.
What a pity the 成人论坛 does not have a go at this government like it used to do with the last Tory administration.