December the 11th
and Catherine Howard-Dobson sends us this:
Jump to more content from this blog
About this blog
PM The evening news and current affairs programme presented by Eddie Mair.
iPM The programme that starts with its listeners. Join the discussions online and contribute ideas for a weekly programme presented by Eddie Mair and Jennifer Tracey.
The PM Privacy Commission
Read the final report of the PM Privacy Commission.
- Full Audio and Transcripts
- Hugh Tomlinson QC
- Zac Goldsmith MP
- Max Mosley
- Stephen Abell
- Hugh Grant
- Sir Charles Gray
- Alan Rusbridger
- Helen Wood
- Max Clifford
- Marcus Partington
- John Kampfner
- Christopher Graham
- Louise Mensch
- Andy Trotter
- John Mullin
- Avril Sanders Royle
- Jimmy Wales
Meet the commissioners, view the terms of reference and hear the Commission Chair Sir Michael Lyons explain his approach.
RSS feed
Email us
Listen to PM
I think I've seen that tree before. Is it in Gloucestershire?
Good morning Eddie.
It is now clear how the Government intends to limit next year's council tax rises to five per cent. Have you noticed that Ministers are putting the financial squeeze on key projects, and then banking on an unsuspecting public not spotting the consequences.
This can be the only explanation for New Labour's decision not to honour its funding commitment to police community safety officers when it made its grant allocations to local authorities. It is a sleight of hand that must be placed in perspective.
The Government has relentlessly argued that community officers are fundamental to the fight against street crime, even though many experts argued that the resources would have been better spent recruiting officers with full arrest powers.
Yet, despite such platitudes, they have now backtracked on their funding commitments which means some areas, for example, will have up to 70 fewer community officers than planned.
It seems to me that it strikes at the heart of the debate about politics and trust after Tony Blair promised to be tough on crime. He stood on the steps of 10 Downing Street to tell us all about it. Remember?
It was one of the eyecatching slogans that catapulted New Labour into power. Yet, the Prime Minister has patently failed to deliver on this promise. And this is further borne out by two disturbing announcements last week. First, the Government's flagship anti-social behaviour orders have not curbed the endemic culture of reoffending. Second, knife crime 鈥 another New Labour priority after headteacher Philip Lawrence was stabbed to death 鈥 remains out of control, with recent amnesties having little impact.
Given these figures, and now the broken promise over community officers, it is little wonder that the electorate's trust of, and respect for, politicians has reached an all-time low. It is a legacy that should ashame the Prime Minister. If and when he dicides to go?
Catherine, that is a beautiful photograph. I should use it as a meditation aid to calm myself down. Sadly I am just too too busy...!
MP(2) oh yes, tough on crime, tough on causes of crime. Also an ethial foreign policy. Also education education education. Also the NHS safe in our hands.
Sadly this will not shame Mr Bleaagghhh at all since he obviously has no sense of shame whatsoever. I think it is something prospective politicians of almost all parties have amputated.
Speaking of Ice and Snow....
xx
ed
Now that is far too much snow for the UK...
My train won't run.
The motorway will grind to a halt.
People will die of Hypothermia.
The power will go off
The thaw will cause flooding.
.... nice photo though.
What beautiful image, who was saying we couldn't take proper photos that are art?!
C H-D; I love the photo!
MotP; are you David Cameron in disguise? Or Norman Tebbit?
HelenS; I recall commenting as the 'Day' of WoyW approached that I was looking forward to seeing somebody trying to create art instead of simply recording their normal 5 o'clock environment. I haven't really seen anything there yet, so this will certainly do as a substitute.
I agree with a lot of last weeks commentators that the rabbit was the star of WoyW. Any dissentors?
Si.
Re 8
Yup, rabbits do it for me.
and cats
and rats
and squirrels
and moose..
MotP; thank goodness that the government does not have a Spelling Target; do you mean 'decides to go'????
Incidentally, the present government does not, at least, have apologists for murderous South American Dictators, amongst its ranks.
Simon, I wasn't being grumpy again BTW, but you did make me
write about the Turner Prize! I like the mundane, but am glad there is something there to please all of us.
Lost Tribe of Israel Receives GPS System for Chanukkah.....Flatulence forces Air Force One to land.....
We're living in the golden age of apathy.
xx
ed
I agree with everyone else, it seems, in thinking that the rabbit is the star so far. Mind you, that may be because after the first few pages of photos, our thoughts turn towards "So where's my photo?"....
Sparkles (currently 11);
glad that my rant stimulated you to respond in your own way.
I actually liked what I saw of Tomma Abts work (gasps from the crowd at this revelation). I'm not much of a one for art, although I do enjoy opera and classical music. What I do like tends to be fine art, not the strange and wonderful world of modern art. The likes of Jackson Pollock and Henry Moore leave me bemused. As for Tracey Emin or Damien Hirst, enough said.
I reckon that Rembrandt is probably my favourite painter, his use of light and dark was sublime. Mirrored in a more modern medium by one of my favourite photographers, Yousuf Karsh of Ottowa.
Si.
Why are so many of your listeners' pictures repeated (see page 12) when mine is not included at all?
Okay, I'm going to raise a discussion point on this thread, seeing as Eddie hasn't started an "obvious" serious thread today...
Regarding the three young women who have been murdered in Ipswich, along with the fourth woman that police are concerned for; Should the headlines be saying things like "Three Prostitutes killed" or Fourth Prostitute Missing"? Is the fact that they worked in the sex industry one worthy of inclusion into the headlines? I have no problem with it being a part of the story. My concern is that by stating things so blatantly in the headlines, readers/listeners/viewers are more likely to sub-consciously devalue the lives of these women, purely based on what they did to earn money. I'm not looking for an argument about the legalities of their line of work. That's a whole other topic. What I'm asking is this: "Are we in danger of judging peoples' lives of lesser worth, based purely on their profession?"
Discuss...
FFred,
In 3 words, No, No, Yes.
A very common fault in headlines and 'short summary' news. The subject's religious or ethnic origins are often stated when totally irrelevant, unless they're 'White' or 'Christian'.
Grrrr
ed
Fearless (16) : on our lunchtime TV news I noticed the women were described as 'working as prostitutes' which I felt was a less derogative way of putting it.
My worry is that, by highlighting that one fact about these women, other women who don't work as prostitutes may feel safer than they really are.
Until it's known how they are being selected and abducted, it is by no means certain that young women out on the town are not equally at risk.
I also saw an interesting comment from a woman who represents prostitutes that Police activity is what chases the sex workers into the quieter backstreets where they are more in danger.
One more thing: when did you ever hear of a person being prosecuted and punished for paying someone for sex? I don't understand why both parties aren't treated equally.
This photo is beautiful.
Ffred, sadly society at large does consider some people to be of more worth than others and this gets reflected in newspapaer headlines. However I don't know that this one is as bad as it seems. If all three victims had been eg nurses then the headlines would presumably have said Three Nurses Murdered, and insert any other profession you like. The point is that the link between them is in what they do which is reflected in the headlines. Sadly again women in the sex industry are, by the nature of what they do, more vulnerable to being attacked and/or killed than women in other jobs, or even no jobs at all. This is a statement of fact and not in any way meant to be judgemental.
I am off now to clean my bathroom whihc is a total non sequitur but I hate doing it, and if I record the intenetion here, maybe it will be translated into action.
So, did anyone read the book? If so I'd be really interested to hear what you thought of Sara, who I found, - well let's say difficult, as an opener.
Hi, admin annie(currently at 20). To a certain extent you are right. Some professions would lead to being highlighted in the headline; They're professions that are either held in high esteem (Teachers, Nurses, Police Officers, eyc) or they are professions that are frowned upon, as is the case here. I somehow doubt we would ever see headlines saying "Three Accountants Murdered" or "Three Supermarket Checkout Staff" murdered. It wouldn't "excite" the headline writers of certain newspapers...
Fifi (18): I've done a bit of digging on the 'net (as well as emailing a friend of mine who was a policeman until recently) regarding your last point/question. Apparently some forces do arrest and charge men who have picked up prostitutes, under the charge of solicitation. My source says that it's usually referred to the Magistrates' Court, with a typical sentence being a fine of somewhere like 拢300 to 拢500.
Interesting feedback so far. Does anyone else want to chip in their tuppence-worth?
Si, van Eyck would be my favourite if pushed, although Velasquez would run him a close second. Am with you on Tracey Emin but would be interested to hear your views on Jack Vettriano.
And sopmeone mentioned a newsletter! where is it? certainly hasn't reached my in box, but then it came in the early hours all last week. Thought I might be in line for early deliveries this week to balance things out, but obviously not.
December, it even smells different. A whole new energy has taken over the house. The wife is whistling chrissy tunes, the kids are smiling a crazy smile and they are even looking forward to seeing "mad" Auntie Ena who will make her annual pilgramage to our abode for Chrismas dinner.
It takes military precision to organise the collection of M.A.E. and my mum. I have a pick-up-truck you see and trying to get the two of them into it is quite a feat, but I will do it. Iv'e worked it out that I spend approximately two hours and twenty minutes just fetching and carrying them and they only live two miles away!
But I'm not moaning, far from it, it's all part of the deal. As much as they protest about coming round and how we should have a nice quiet day on our own, I know they look forward to it from the previous Boxing Day and it gives me the most enormous pleasure to watch them watch the kids enjoy the day.
I just hope my kids have taken note of just what the Christmas spirit is all about and remember to come and pick the old man up from the pub when they are doing the family thing. I trust froggers that you will all be doing the same with your very own Mad Auntie Ena's.
A strapline!! I've arrived. Oh and my vote goes to Vermeer.
admin annie (22);
My ex is a big fan of Vettriano. Maybe that contributed to us falling out, because I find his work bland and even somewhat disturbing.
The disturbing part is the faces of his 'subjects', i.e. they generally don't have any. Mostly they are turned away from the artists viewpoint or they are blank, like the Autons from Doctor Who. That gives them a lack of character.
As a 'people' photographer (in my other existence) I like to see the character of the people I shoot reflected in my imagery. In fact it's what I look for more than any technical clarity or quality. I can't make an emotional connection to something that isn't there.
I can't argue with the man's success, he obviously has enormous appeal to the print-buying public. But not to me.
I like your choice of van Eyck or Velasquez, cracking stuff.
Si.
admin annie (20) yes read and much enjoyed - will try to find time to post at greater length later.
Ed (5): PEuT Etre????? btw, loved the 'precipice of a runaway train' bit on 'The Now Show'.
FF, like Ed, I'd say: "No, no, yes". This is a sad but not surprising example of two of the press's (the media's?) love of headlinese (yes, headlin-ese, the language of headlines, beloved of sub-editors): brevity and prurience.
So much easier and more exciting to describe people in shorthand by what we see them as - usually their profession/status in society. eg if they had been three women over 60 it's probably have been "three grannies'. This seems to be especially the case with women - or am I wrong?
And, oooh, if they're sex workers, so much the better and more sellable!!!!!!
And several dead prostitutes? Yippeee, a 'ripper' story. Double the print run, lads!
Female sex worker. very balanced.
Admin annie
have read book and will try to sort out what I thought later.
Nobody asked, but my favourite painter of the moment is Chagall, however I also love living painters - Michael Honnor, Neil Canning, Kurt Jackson. And can't leave out Patrick Heron, Ivon Hitchens, Mark Gertler.......oooh and many many more whose names I forget. I think it's the use of colour that works for me. And all, I fear fairly abstract.
One disturbing aspect of the Ipswich murders story is that ALL (young?) women in the area are being told they are at risk and should avoid going out at night, or words to that effect.
Why should women live in fear? Why can they not be protected? Whatever they do for a living?
Simon (26) I'm with you on this one, hurrah! I would even go as far as to say his artwork reflects a misogynist & hearing him speak on occasion has done nothing to disuade me of that notion. I have no idea why any woman would like it, & DEFINITELY DON'T THINK IT IS ART, which is also why I find it so unpalatable.
Agree with the no, no, yes lobby. I also agree with Fifi that by labelling the victims as members of a certain profession suggests that others not related to that profession are safe. Frankly I couldn't care if they were in the sex trade or not; what I find upsetting is that young lives have been prematurely snuffed out. Let us hope that the killer is apprehended as soon as possible so that no more young lives are needlessly ended.
Frances (31) - like the anagrams by the way - I agree, this is disturbing. Presumably the police have a profile of the man (and I gather they think it is a man) they believe to be responsible. In that case why stop young women (i.e potential victims) from going out? Why not curfew "men aged 20 to 55" (i.e. potential perpetrators) or whatever the profile is instead?
Of course, neither is ideal, but I offer it as food for thought...
Hear, hear, Mark
PS Congrats on the strapline Mark.
you see I love Vettriano, despite being a woman, or perhaps because of. A lot of his stuff is quite edgy and I think that appeals me to me more than putting me off. Also the lack of expression draws me in, rather than shutting me out. I suppose Si a photographer is looking for a connection which is then transferred to the viewer of the photograph, but a painting isn't lookiing for a connection in quite the same way, except in some portraits.
I have heard JV interviewed several times Helen and have found him witty, rueful, down to earth and honest, but never thought of him as a misogynist.
I suspect this man thinks he is cleaning up the streets, for some bizarre reason, & it is vile.
Research has shown that most sex workers have been abused as children. Most continue to be abused by the men who act as their pimps, who are often violent. Of those I have met who are mainly ex-sex workers, they were powerless women who commonly adopted a disassociative state to cope with their activities.
It is hard not to sound judgmental if I say I would rather they didn鈥檛 take this route; women who work the streets are vulnerable and I think I value them more than they do themselves sometimes
I am also not reassured by the forensic psychologist on the programme who was clear this maniac would stick to sex workers. Anyone else been asked if they are working when waiting on the street for someone? I can't be the only one & it can鈥檛 be a leap for him to attach another young woman who is behaving 鈥榠nappropriately鈥.
Mark - congratulations on your excellent strapline! GMx
Appy (34) This is what was at the back of my mind... as food for thought, of course.
Thanks - I love anagrams. It's been a stressful fortnight and I'm in (mostly) playful mood, now my Mum'll be moved from hospital to a sort of recovery place while her broken hip gets better.
Did send Lissa some anags of our beloved Lord Muir a while ago but don't know if anything can be made of them.
Helen S (37) I think what you say is very sound.
Incidentally, there is, or was, a good exhibition on the subject at the Women's Library
admin annie, oh well, I have a friend who loves him too, & she would disagree with me about the misogyny too. I'm probably wrong anyway, even if I don't like his work. What I do like is the perversity of someone who isn't art school trained, and who is dismissed by critics, having 'popular' appeal.
Helen S as usual I agree with you.
Mary
Si (14) may I call you that? I am lucky (I think) that I like some fine art and some modern. I do love Damien Hirst & Tracey Emin, the latter because I like the autobiographical in literature as well as art, but I am also a huge opera fan, and though fussy about what I see, love theatre too.
As far as art is concerned I was bowled over by the Modigliani exhibition, and I hadn鈥檛 really considered him before a friend took me, but I am always open to someone else鈥檚 passion. We are off to the Serpentine on Sunday to see what Damien has been collecting, I really want to see the new Saatchi gallery, and I hope to see the Rodin sometime. I imagine I am influenced by hanging around in the periphery of that art world when in London and lived down the road from Rachel Whiteread鈥檚 鈥楬ouse鈥, which I loved. Maybe surprisingly, my favourite paining in the world is the The Arnolfini Marriage and I love Vermeer too Mark Intime (25), especially his colours. I find it a trifle tricky to think of anyone being bemused by Henry Moore, because I find him sublime, even trickier to put find in the same sentence as Jackson Pollock鈥 I wonder what you make of Anthony Gormley, Angel of the North etc.?
I also love photography, I even liked David Hockney鈥檚 Polaroid鈥檚 I鈥檓 afraid, but am long over due a good exhibition, but that鈥檚 my own fault. I used to find the Barbican good for that when in London, and go to the Ikon in Birmingham sometimes now, but am always very happy in the Photographers鈥 Gallery in Covent Garden.
Aunt Dahlia (30) is Patrick Heron the one who paints over the edge of the canvas, I like him the one that does, & feel sure you will know! You list so many names I have never heard of; I shall look them all up now! Colour always does it for me as well, actually I fear I am altogether more catholic in my taste than I had realised.
Dear Eddie Please open you Eyes
I am a fan of you but was very surprised to note that 鈥測our were surprised鈥, when you were interviewing Rabbi Freedman and he said that Iran is a peaceful country. You should have agreed rather than repeating the same old clich茅s that has already been discredited as a miss quotation by the media about what Ahamadi njads said. You know what I mean.
Iran is not against Israelis or Israel. It is after the truth to prevent another holocaust happening again. It is no good to make the holocaust a taboo.
Israel in its short history of 58 years has attacked a number of countries including Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq and its deputy defence minister has very recently publicly threatened to attach Iran too. Israel has stockpiled nuclear weapon in clear violation of the international law. It has attracted exactly 100 UN resolutions against it.
On the other hand please can you name any country that Iran has attached during the last 50, 100 or even 200 years? You should know now what the Rabbi was referring to. OK?
Re Windows on your world:
/radio4/news/pm/galleries/786/72/
Patsy, we need to know why it's the wrong cat!!!
Wonderful photos made fascinating by the comments (the ones without comments I just want to skip over) but I think the enthusiasm for putting them on has waned, we are having to wait rather long for the rest (including my horse!)
Thanks pm for a great idea.
Pauline
PS I am the author, this comment is approved... do you mean the editor of the weblog needs to approve????
I'm sorry, WHAT????
OK, I've been away from the blog for a while, missed 1 1/2 progs, not caught up with The Archers, and overslept this morning. Forgive me, Eddie, for I have sinned. But surely that's not enough so completely to separate me from your reality. What's all this about beach? I just had a new beach kitchen fitted, solid wood, sustainable (before you start getting at me) and very lovely. But I can't believe that's why beach features so heavily on the blog. I've scanned the comments - too tired to read them properly, sorry - but still can't work out what's going on. Please will someone explain. In short words, if poss.
Helen I have to say I agree with you 100% about the forensic psychologist on the program, if you wanted a man to bring his profession into disrepute in less than 3 minutes you couldn't have picked a better.
As for JV, you aren't wrong about his work, just interpreting it in a different way to me. I know lots of people who do like it, and some who dont. The antis include my husband who loathes it and says the guy can't paint. I think he can, and we can agree to differ.
Anna you can follow the sign post at top right to the beach. Or just click on comments under the 'this week's beach' thread and there is a wonderful guide to the beach written by a fellow frogger. Also by the time you get there there may be a dozen bottles of champagne, although I see they have not yet arrived - sigh. Moderation seems very slow this evening.
Anna Rex, the introduction to the beach is at the top of The New Beach posting for this week, which is a welcome mat rolled out for the disorientated!
Hin Graeme,
Once again you're right on the money. Iran hasn't attacked anyone in at least 100 years, in spite of having its internal affairs messed about and its democratically elected government overthrown by US agencies and replaced by the Shah. The Persians I know want a change of regime, but not one involving any meddling from our lot.
The current demonising of Iran is being led by the , who were also behind the demonisation of Iraq and the build-up of war fever from the late 1990s.
A few examples of the output from The :
Setting the agenda in 2002 (brief papers) Iraq:
and Iran:
This is the tail which is wagging the big dog which is humping al Poodle (sorry, make that "rubbing shoulders").
ed
madmary, thanks honey, again. I did have a bit of an environmental wobbly with Ed the other day, so we might yet find something to disagree about! I am working on the basis that Ed & I are still friends; I did promise to read all the papers his links sent me to, I haven't quite managed it yet... I have to return to Selfidges to return things, do you think it will be bearable in the week this week?
Your champagne arrived admin annie, so some things are working & it is thrilling news! Let thrilling has been the fact that all the forensic pysochologists had said the same thing until the midnight news on R4.
The police are looking at unsolved murders & attacks in the area as well, in case it is someone who has failed to 鈥榝inish鈥 the crime previously. It might even be someone who has resumed his activities having been in prison for a spell, oh no, too much CSI, I must must wean myself of it; it is my guilty secret/pleasure. Finally though, the chap on the midnight news has said that a lot of prostitutes don鈥檛 report violence because they expect it, so he could have got away with a lot more than we know about, if not actually murder & they might come forward now to give a fuller picture. In agreement with us though, he also said that men he has spoken to who have attacked prostitutes (interesting job he has?) have attacked other women because, although their goal was a prostitute, they hadn鈥檛 actually been able to find one at the time鈥
I actually feel for the police on this one, which is odd, & I really don鈥檛 like the thought of all those young women going out to play in Ipswich this Christmas. I hope they all heed the advice & don鈥檛 take risks like getting into rogue taxis. Mostly I am furious to think that this man can scare women enough for them to consider staying indoors, but I do also wonder who this man is & what on earth happened to him. That could be my woolly minded liberalism rearing it鈥檚 head again & he could be pathological.
I would next like to type ust orn pst without a typo...
Fifi (18) were you on the news? I taped it on the Sky+ thing so can look tomorrow, we had to do jobs tonight which is why I am here so late & multiple posting.
I was going to pick up on what you said about men who use prostitutes. I know men are prosecuted for soliciting, but women fare far less well. Male & female sex workers are incredibly vulnerable, streetwalkers more so, & I think that the women this man has targeting are also addicts who have to work. It is an anomaly that men are not punished as much as the women who supply them with sex, & I don鈥檛 know about anyone else, but I have been really scared by kerbcrawlers on occasion.
Hello, Dears,
I'm suprised that none of you has suggested a painter who was appreciated by a variety of luminaries such as T. Milligan, P.Sellers and M. Brooks:
"Hitler..there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!!"
Perhaps you were put off because some people say he wasn't a very nice man, but remember that T. Lautrec and many others got "an illness", too.
Fifi (18) were you on the news? I taped it on the Sky+ thing so can look tomorrow, we had to do jobs tonight which is why I am here so late & multiple posting.
I was going to pick up on what you said about men who use prostitutes. I know men are prosecuted for soliciting, but women fare far less well. Male & female sex workers are incredibly vulnerable, streetwalkers more so, & I think that the women this man has targeting are also addicts who have to work. It is an anomaly that men are not punished as much as the women who supply them with sex, & I don鈥檛 know about anyone else, but I have been really scared by kerbcrawlers on occasion.
Greame (44)
See my 40 here on the Iraq thread about Israeli aggression.
In 1967 a cartoon from a neighbouring country was printed in the Paris Match , showing "How we are going to destroy Israel." I remember it because one of the people floating in the water looked very like le General de Gaulle.
Greame (44) and Ed (50);
Israel has the Bomb (as good as admitted by Olmert yesterday), but was not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty, so has not broken International Law. Ed and I have had a somewhat lively debate, elsewhere on the blog, on this very point.
Iran as a geographical entity may be peaceful. Its people may be peaceful. But it's President stokes the fires of war with his call for Israel to be wiped from the map and for all Jews to be relocated to Alaska. He's the best recruiting sergeant Israel has. Iran may not be against Israel, but its political elite certainly is.
The Holocaust is not a taboo. It's an established fact of C20th history. The Germans and their acolytes running the camps kept meticulous records of their actions in slaughtering millions. It's beyond dispute that it happened. One might argue over a few hundred thousands here or there, but it doesn't alter the basic facts.
We can, and should, judge a nations intent by the utterings of its leaders. We should have done so when Hitler wrote 'Mein Kampf', because everything he wanted to do, and tried to do, was laid down there for all to see. WW2 happened because we didn't take him seriously until it was too late. Even in 1936 if the western Allies had moved against the occupation of the Rhineland his Generals were ready to overthrow him. We didn't do so and the rest is history.
Jeremy Bowen, the 成人论坛's excellent Mid-East editor is one of the finest commentators on affairs in that region. Please read his book 'Six Days'. It's the most lucid explanation of the 1967 war I've ever read. Amongst it's other achievements it makes it clear that the primary cause of the war was a political rupture between Nasser and his army chief. The Field Marshal was basically responsible fot the slide to war and Nasser didn't have the political clout to get rid of him at that time. The aftermath of the war, with the loss of Sinai gave him the leverage he needed to do the job afterwards. Too late, of course.
It also lays bare why the war dragged in a reluctant Jordan and a not-so-reluctant Syria & Iraq, paving the way for Assad's rise to power.
The aftermath is also examined, including the impact of the occupation of Jerusalem and why the ramifications of the war echo down to the modern-day intifada. A very balanced summary.
I don't like one-sided polemics, which happen all too frequently on this topic. Ed, I know this is something which you have particularly strong views on, although the reason why is unknown to me. In my view there is an equal lack of merit on both sides.
Israel should certainly comply with all relevant UN resolutions, immediately. The USA should withhold all financial and political support until they do so. The Israeli method of massive and ill-targetted retaliation against any transgressor is, I believe, a breach of at least two of the Geneva Conventions for which the guilty should be tried by an international tribunal.
But I also vehemently oppose the Palestinian method of suicide bombers (there's a bunch of people who won't enter Paradise, Islam forbids suicide as a mortal sin) targetting civilian populations. Just because Israel can't separate the armed militias from the civilians doesn't make it alright for Hezbollah or Hamas to do the same. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I wish that the Palestinians would learn the method of peaceful protest and civil disobedience. It worked for Gandhi and Luther King, it can work in Israel/Palestine too. And it would create a terrible dilemma for Israel. They could hardly shoot a bunch of people holding a sit-down protest without stimulating the world into action against them. Will they never learn? There will be an endless, unstoppable cycle of violence until something forces one side or the other to change tack.
Si.
Si (58)
Hear hear. I applaud and agree with you.
Sparkles (43);
Of course you can! I only get called Simon when SO gets annoyed with me......
I've never seen the 'Angel of the North', so can't put it in context. Looks very impressive on TV though....
I rarely take in an exhibit. There's the Lowry at Salford, of course (I'm a Stockport resident nominally), which has a permanent exhibit and lots of transient ones. But one of my pet hates is the urban environment. I hate cities and big towns, they feel oppressive to me and I avoid them whenever possible. So I don't go out of my way to visit exhibitions, which by-and-large only visit those places.
My favourite photographers are not particularly those who also 'do' people photography. I'm more inspired by the landscape or photojournalism types. Think Ansel Adams, Doisneau, Tim Page, Cartier-Bresson, Arthus-Bertrand, Galen Rowell.
Maybe you're the person who can explain the whole point of Henry Moore to me? I'd love to know why he's so highly regarded. To me his work looks like nothing particular I can recognise. I certainly can't see the point of all the piercings and voids in his work. Quite a lot is illustrated on his Wikipedia entry and some of it is recognisable, but most of it isn't.
Si.
Simon (58) I suspect my posts on this subject sound anti Israeli as well, but Israel is more the more powerful opponent, & has had significant US support. I would agree that nobody is the good guy though, & there has been a sea change since the onset of suicide bombers, I rather hope the trend of gathering somewhere due to be bombed continues instead.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
~ ~ ~ Bertrand Russell
Simon (60) I could blether on, but a visit to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park might be worth putting in your diary. Lots of outdoors, Henry Moore's, the odd Anthony Gormley & a Babara Hepworth. It is a beautiful place for a visit even if the sculptures don't grab you, &there鈥檚 a lovely caf茅. They charge 拢3 for the car park, which pays for the upkeep of the 500 acres, & they don鈥檛 charge for anything else. I enjoy the shapes, the voids, the curves, & I think Henry Moore really works in that landscape.
I like all those photographers too, but I promise I don鈥檛 just like everything! I did study photography at art school, but moved into textiles & now have no pretence of taking anything other than snaps to document a moment (though I only put people in my own photographs if they make me!). It is true though that I am most at home in a city, love the urban landscape, & probably feel the same sense of freedom in cities that you probably experience elsewhere, I also find a great deal of peace where you might see a cacophony; it is a good job we are all different though, otherwise we might all be living in the same place & that would be very crowded.
Now tell me, are those ladies of Alderley Edge really as hair straightened & designer clothed as Goldplated depicted them? Did I mention my hidden shallows?!
Ed (50)
You addressed this set of links to me on the Iraq thread (I think). Not sure why you said it was the third attempt.
3rd attempt to post?
3rd attempt to get me to read?
I did read - all pretty horrific stuff. I was dead against the invasion of Iraq. I thought it would make Iraq into an Islamic republic, but it seems to have been much worse.
I still don't see that we can lecture Iran on nuclear electricity, and someone else has pointed out that Israel has not signed the n-p treaty; Iran likewise.
The only value of having the "Deterrent" is that if someone attacks you and if you can launch your missile (Amer. Missle) in time they will suffer at least as badly as you. Within a few weeks the entire world is awash with radioactive fallout. "If I'm going down. I'll make sure I take everyone else with me."
Arty theme
for anyone living or able to get to London, could I recommend a visit to a tiny but delicious gallery in Islington (just) The Estorick Collection. There are a couple of Modigliani's there that are a joy.
Henry Moore - Barbara Hepworth, Si as far as I am concerned are about how you feel when you look at them - as an object occupying space. It is the whole thing, how the light falls, how it can be seen through, the scale, the texture, how tactile it is, where it is set.
The trouble with the current British art scene is that it appears to have to be 'contextualized', i.e you have to read a book before you can understand the 'artist's' meaning.
I am old fashioned enough to believe that a work of art has to stand on ots own, and be capable of being interpreted in many, many ways.
I'm going for a lie down on the beach now.
Aunt Dahlia (65) I'd agree about the book business, I've never read an art book. I like the writing at exhibitions that puts work in context sometimes, but I never remember it, I just find it interesting at the time! In fact, I am almost completely uneducated, but completely unabashed by that because if it is too complicated for me to understand, I stop looking at it.
I really like the little galleries around London, but have missed the Estorick, as I had the Women's Libary Frances O mentioned (40). More fun for me to have on my next trip down. I am looking foward to the Serpentine on Sunday though.
Sparkles (63);
Alderley Edge! You can even think about affording that? Yes they are like that. You must be loaded....
It is true that the locals, even the ones who aren't flush, seem to affect a certain disdainful attitude toward their fellow man. Designer everything seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Commerce is tuned to proving for a certain type of client.
The village centre itself is nothing remarkable. A decent part of what used to be commercial property is about to be converted to (horrendously expensive) residential apartments. The businesses closed down because they couldn't afford the ground rents any more. Another village dies....
The real deal is what happens around that area. The 'Golden Triangle' also known as 'Chelsea in the North' is roughly based around Knutsford, Bowden, Prestbury, Poynton, Mottram St. Andrew. The heart of it is Wilmslow town. Alderley Edge (the geographical feature, a ridge) marks the southern boundary of the Manchester urbanised, built-up area and the start of real countryside. Property prices are lottery-winner astronomical. The place is populated by footballers, soap actors, top business types.
The Aston-Martin dealership in Wilmslow sells about a quarter of all new A-M's sold in the entire country, a revealing statistic in itself. Porsche are a mile or two down the road. Lamborghini are opposite Stockport town hall.
The M&S at Handforth Dean is the second largest in the country (?). This is the one that Posh & Becks were photographed exiting with trolley loads of clothes, co-incidentally just after he'd signed up to promote a designer brand for the company....
And yet, if you cross the M60 towards Manchester city centre, within a few miles of Wilmslow you come to Rusholme, Longsight and Levenshulme. I don't even want to drive through there, let alone stop or park the car. Trafford and Moss Side are a step to the left of Rusholme. Needless to say property is a fraction of the price compared to Alderley. It's shocking that such contrasts are found in a short distance.
Si.
Just a quick note to HelenSparkles (54) and anyone else who wanted to catch sight of Fifi in a Santa suit on the back of a motorbike!
I don't see Central TV news so I can't tell if the piece appeared or not. But it had dropped off the Anglia TV news by early evening, thanks to extended coverage of the Ipswich murders and the fact that people are still homeless a year after that huge petrol storage explosion a year ago.
I'll just have to be patient and wait for you to check your Sky+ thingy.
.. Central doesn't have a 'watch again' facility does it? The Anglia website has a podcast but there was nothing there either.
:o(
Lunch!!
Si @ 58, thank you so much for posting this. I agree with everything you say, just don't have the words and arguments at my fingertips.
For those who are quick to condemn Israel as aggressive could I just remind them of what happened in the First Gulf War. Israel was continually under missile attack for night after night and didn't reply in kind. For a nation who is surrounded by neighbours who declared war on it practically the instant it was founded, that was restraint on a massive scale.
I accept that the Palestinians paid the price of European guilt at the Holocaust. And that they are still paying. And that it's not right that they should. Although I have never noticed any of their Arab neighbours rolling out a welcome mat and offfering them land to settle on. And I do understand that for a lot of Palestinians that is not the point.
However as someone said in a discussion on Iraq, we have to start trying to solve problems from where we are, not where we'd like to be. Jews were slaughtered in their millions and needed a state where they could feel safe. Palestinians were dumped on and were displaced. The reason for the first and the fact of the second are deplorable. But Israel as a state is not going to go away. Some form of co-existence has to be found and both sides are going to have to live with it. Some of them will find this easier than others, but short of annihilating one side or the other, there is no other solution. The sooner they realise that the sooner they can start working towards a peace in the Middle East which is something everyone of sense must want.
Vyle & Si,
It was the third attempt to get it to appear, possibly rude entendres on al Poodle.
Dinner Jacket hasn't called for Israel to be wiped off map, but has predicted it will be history soon, and inferred it would be a good thing. It's possible to mistranslate with malignant intent. Both sides do it.
Iran HAS signed the NPT.
The Holocaust is not a taboo, but al Nakba is. If it is a crime to deny the Holocaust, it should also be a crime to deny .
Which of the 100 or more disregarded UN resolutions do you think Israel should begin with?
If we judge countries by the utterances of their leaders, what of the USA and it's Best Buddy?
As to one-sided, I again commend for its balanced output, and particularily its piece on .
Again, I commend and and . There is not equal wrong on both sides.
ed
Admin Annie,
If you delve as deeply into these unhappy matters as I have, you will find it hard to avoid the conclusion that the biggest impediment to peace is Israeli intransigence and expansionism. SADLY!
Try the and the Israeli to see what the Palestinians
ed
Ed,
I am in utter agreement with your larest postings (are you shocked? - I did say we are not so far apart as you think), especially with this: If we judge countries by the utterances of their leaders, what of the USA and it's Best Buddy?
There is wrong on both sides, but, if such things can be measured, it is not equal wrong.
Simon (60) alas not, I was just curious, afraid I actually wouldn't be seen dead there though even if I could, but that could just be reverse snobbery... or an inability to maintain straight hair, suntan, twiglet size, & upright position in sky high heels.
Appy,
I am a bit shocked, but glad tyo note that even Vyle, Simon, Annie, you, myself and all are not that far apart, being the reasonable, enlightened and tolerant folk we are...I would also add Graeme (Who I believe I know in the real world), and thank him for calling our attention to the Pachyderm.
I too was surprised to hear Eddie's surprise when the assumed demon status of Dinner Jacket was questioned. The campaign to demonise Iran is driven by the same who dragged us to war in Iraq (and Afghanistan).
Hugs all round. See y'all an the beach.
ed
admin annie (69) I must admit I was really worried watching all those scuds head for Israel & surprised they didn't retaliate, as well as relieved. It suddenly did really feel like the 3rd world war would start in the middle east.
Ed (70);
This all depends on your point of view. How far does one go back in history to determine who is entitled to ownership of a piece of land? If we go back to 1945 then the Palestinian Arabs own Palestine. If you go back 2000 years then the Jewish people own the Promised Land. Who is right and who wrong? Who should decide?
Elsewhere you have described "the Zionist state" in very unhelpful terms. The accepted definition of Zionism is "an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel". Personally I don't see anything particularly wrong with that as an ideal. I happen to think that the Kurds should have an independent homeland also.
There was supposed to be a right to self-determination at the end of WW1, which didn't always work out how it was intended. The Kurds were refused at the conference table and haven't got there yet, the Jews had to wait for nearly 30 years before they got theirs.
Palestine was their original Promised Land, where else would you have them set up home? Perhaps you believe, like Dinner Jacket, that Europe should set somewhere aside (he named Austria, I'm sure the Austrians would love to move out and make way), or that Canada or Alaska are appropriate places for a Jewish state to exist?
As for who started all the fighting and when; on November 29th 1947 the UN voted for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. The Jewish Agency accepted the plan. The Arabs didn't, attacked Jewish settlers and the Independence War followed immediately. So in that sense the Palestinian Arabs refused the UN first and fired the first shots in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. One could argue, from a certain point of view, that the Arabs initiated the conflict with Israel against the resolution of the UN and are therefore responsible for the entire 60 year history of the conflict. And they've been on the short end of every war since, until Lebanon this summer.
Who is denying al Nakba here on this blog?700 000 Arabs fled from Palestine then (UN figures: 1947-8) but an estimated million Jews were ejected from Muslim countries they had called home and moved to Israel as a result. Arabs can vote in Israeli elections and have their own Israeli parliament MP's (or whatever they are called). No reciprocal rights exist for Jews in many Muslim nations where they are denied citizenship.
Kofi Annan has described that speech by Dinner Jacket as "dismaying", which in diplo-speak is damning. He also reiterated Israel's right to exist and reminded Iran of its UN obligations. The EU condemned him roundly and demanded a retraction. During the Muslim summit last year he made a speech which included Holocaust denial. Not only was Annan "shocked" but the Saudis, the Turks and even his own Iranian officials condemned him.
I know Iran has signed the NNPT, my earlier statement was that Israel hasn't. So it has committed no breach of international law. Iran, by contrast, would commit such a breach if it enriched Uranium highly, or made any other research or preparations to develop a nuclear weapon.
Why should it be up to me or anyone else here to decide which UN resolution Israel starts with? I've said above that I think that they should comply fully, period.
There have always been at least two strands to Zionism, right from earliest days. One believed that co-existence was impossible, because the Arabs would never tolerate it (which proved true in 1947 and the War of Independence), the other held that a rapprochement of some kind ought to be possible. The links you supply serve to highlight the latter of these two diametrically opposed views. As we see elsewhere on this blog 'alternative viewpoints exist'.
Frankly I would damn both sides. They are each so entrenched in their own bloody trenches I think they probably deserve each other. And I think that there is wrong on both sides, as I said earlier, two wrongs do not make a right.
Si.
Sparkly Sibling (51),
Of course we're still friends. Did you ever doubt it? As to matters environmental, I do recommend the Current radio series Planet Earth Under Threat, which is , despite its intimidating title, rather uplifting with many positive insights.
There is also a blog (of course), and the short (30 minute) programmes are all available as 'listen again'. The current one has just had me listening to waves lapping on a coral reef in mid-pacific.....
I do commend them to one and all, and I'll see y'all on the beach where I've got another couple of bottles of Lagavulin and shall try and convince Brian (bill'n ben) to blag us another cask of Liffey water.
ed
Simon,
Your summary of history is a wee bit more one-sided than that I again commend at , and as previously noted there is a very balanced .
The timeline shows it was far from one-sided, and in fact the proto-Israelis had already attacked and destroyed many Arab villages long before the Arabs attacked the new state in May 1948. In fact the Israelis had already stolen so much extra land, the Arabs hardly set foot in any part of the area proposed for Israel. Bush is not the first to adopt a strategy of pre-emptive war. It has been Israeli policy from the outset. Check .
If Palestine be;longed to the Arabs in 1945, what about in 1919 or 1890?
"Whether the Jews be regarded as a "race" or as a "religion" it is contrary
to the democratic principles for which the world war was waged to found a
nation on either or both of these bases. The glory (of the most advanced
democracies in the world) lies in the freedom of conscience and worship, in
the liberty of thought and custom which binds the followers of many faiths
and varied civilizations in the common bonds of political union. A JEWISH
STATE INVOLVES FUNDAMENTAL LIMITATIONS AS TO RACE AND RELIGION, ELSE THE
TERM "JEWISH" MEANS NOTHING. TO UNITE CHURCH AND STATE, IN ANY FORM, AS
UNDER THE OLD JEWISH HIERARCHY, WOULD BE A LEAP BACKWARD OF TWO THOUSAND
YEARS."
ed
Regarding the of 1947 (UN GA res 181)
Meeting in Lake Success N.Y. November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved the partition plan, with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list at end of document).
The Palestinians and Arabs felt that it was a total injustice to ignore the rights of the majority of the population of Palestine. The Arab League and Palestinian institutions rejected the partition plan, and formed volunteer armies that infiltrated into Palestine beginning in December of 1947.
Voting:
n favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.
Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.
Abstained: 10
Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.
(note that no UN member from the region was in favour and many of the Latin American members had their arms twisted hard by USA) Can you blame the Arabs for rejecting a plan that gave 55% of Palestine to a minority of 33% of the population who owned less than 7% of the land?
In short, a European solution imposed against the will of the local majority in direct contravention of the FOUNDING PRINCIPLE of self-determination. It does the UN no credit whatsoever, and we are still witnessing the results.
Sorry to all, but it hurts.
xx
ed
Follow the links to and
Ed (78) & (79);
I'm one-sided? That's cheeky and unfair.
I have said in many posts, and repeated above that there is evil in the actions of both sides; that Israel has gone beyond the mandate allowed for by the resolution which created it; that it should immediately comply with any and all resolutions concerning it; that because the Palestinian Arabs feel aggrieved does not give them a right to blow cafe-goers in Tel Aviv to small pieces; that because Israel doesn't like Hezbollah dropping Katyushas on their border settlements doesn't give THEM the right to invade Lebanon and kill innocent civilians; that I believe that Israel has broken the conventions of war and the guilty should be prosecuted. Do not dream of labelling me as one-sided. How much more even handed could I be? I want to see a just peace in the Middle East where all can exist in peace and harmony living side-by-side with each other.
Methinks thou dost see the mote in thine own eye.... In all your postings I have yet to see a single word of condemnation for any actions taken against the Israeli population or state by any outside party. THAT is one-sided and biased. You are very selective in choosing information which backs up that partisan view and overlooking others which support any alternative.
You want compliance with the '100 outstanding resolutions', yet repudiate the Partition plan of 1947, agreed by the same UN.
You state that this plan was a European solution, yet only 10 of the votes for partition (less than one-third) were cast by European nations, plus 3 others by parts of the forming USSR.
You state that the Latin American nations had their arms twisted by the USA, yet give no evidence to support this. I further note that Argentina, Chile, Colombia, El Salvador, Honduras & Mexico abstained, which hardly backs up your assertion.
It's worth noting that the UN was young then and the British (and other) Empire(s) still existed, which explains the low numbers of voting nations and the near-total absence of Africa and Asia from the vote.
Self-determination was the 10th of Woodrow Wilsons 14 points at the Versailles Conference. It asserted the right of races to self-determination of their own destiny. One cannot say that the Jewish people are not a race. Therefore one can say that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
That determination had already expressed itself in the form of Zionism (thanks to the Dreyfus case in particular), a desire to create a Jewish state in their ancestral home in the Promised Land. The UN agreed with that in the form of the partition plan.
Once it was adopted it was not open to any nation, even those in the region who disagreed, to take action to strangle the new nation at birth. The actions of those who sought to destroy Israel in the Independence War were illegal under international law.
Be even-handed yourself. Say here that you condemn not just those actions of Israel which have undoubtedly broken international law. Say that you also condemn all aggression taken against the legally constituted Israeli state. Say that you condemn all actions taken against innocent civilians within Israel.
If you wish to condemn al-Nakba, then condemn also the expulsions of Jewish peoples from Muslim states which were concurrent with that. Condemn those nations who refuse citizenship and civil rights to Jewish people on the basis of their religion.
If you wish that Israel comply with UN resolutions then acknowledge the legality of its existence under the UN Partition plan.
Si.
Simon,
The Jews leaving the Arab nations was not 'concurrent' with Nakba so much as resultant. It was in general not violent and mostly without dispossession.
I commend to you Gush Shalom's piece which addresses the problem of 'two narratives'
I have not condoned Arab/Palestinian misdeeds, but I do believe they are realtively small, compared to the continuing Israeli practices, and the Partition plan was the direct result of European guilt. Again, how is it democracy when the will of the entire neighbourhood is ignored?
Most Jews deny Jews are a race, as noted in the , and Race is not a basis for the formation of a 'democratic' state by a minority. The population of the 'Jewish State' envisaged by partition was 45% Arab, while the 'Arab State' was 10% Jewish. The boundaries were incredibly gerrymandered to get even that small majority for the Jewish partition. Read the resolution.
The entire business has been a travesty from the very beginning. The best we can hope for is a 'green line' based two-state solution, though better would be a secular single Palestine - impossible - and why? because of colonialist Zionism.
Even the 'green line' is obviously and explicitly unacceptable to Every Israeli governme3nt since 1967. And the settlements are an abomination.
Sorry, but we will probably disagree forever. I do feel that there is much more wrong and injustice on one side, and there has certainly been more destruction and death dealt out by the Israelis than by the dispossessed Palestinians and their colleagues. Check for that.
Both sides have done wrong, but one side has suffered far more by , and continues to suffer while the other dances and shops.
ed
"Listeners texted us photos of their world at 5pm on Tuesday 5th December"
How can you "Text" a photograph? Or is this a new verb for our ever growing language?