As we hurtle towards the end of 2006, we're now in a pretty good position to assess what this first decade of the century might really be about. What do you think it is? What are the defining characteristics that people will look back on and say - "that was SO Noughties"?
I don't know - which is why I'm asking.
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I hate to bring it up but it has to be climate change.
That or war.
Global warming. But I suspect that one will run and run.
Er - how about: ringtones, trackies, hoodies (the garment), cash for honours, neo-cons, designer trainers, not recycling, smoking indoors, binge drinking (probably not), ultra-skinny models, Chelsea tractors, and (here's a fervent but probably hopeless one) racial and religious hatred
Also, in the television world the watch word must be 'Digital' - for the masses.
Oh and flat screens. Whish are slowly changing the look of the average living room.
No idea. The 2000's aren't done yet, there's still 3 years for something to define the decade.
Or maybe it's total cynicism about politicians and their motives?
That would go with the emptiness of naught...
I can't wait for Jason Good's take on this question.
jonnie I agree, but I would also have to say that a rise in fundamentalist thinking might also turn out to be something we'll remember.
A few days ago I recall hearing about plans to chemically castrate sex offenders. Doesn't anyone else find this chilling?
Mary
The Frog?
Re: madmary
Yes I have to agree with regards to chemical castration.
I don't think it's as bad if (as I believe) the effects oif the chemicals are temporary and if the sex offenders are given a choice in the matter. ie: a reduced sentence.
I do however think they should decide and not have such measures forced on them.
For goodness' sake! It will take a few years into the next decade before we can define this one -- Stop wishing my life away for me! I can't even do "That was so 90s" yet...
jonnie, voluntary measures often become compulsory.
Mary
Another decade - another question. Do you think Will will marry this year? (Happy memories of Kissinger...)
I take it we aren't talking about a certain The Today Programme presenter's family?
Sorry, MadMary (5) if you are expecting some great humour here because for me the Noughties represented the death of Magna Carta and the ultimate in hypocrisy in response to terrorism.
I am hopeful that the next decade (the Teenies?) will see a global re-evaluation of a lot of things and condemnation where it is due.
For examples: the whole Guantanamo Bay thing; the justifications for the war in Iraq; the funding and management of the British Armed Forces; the role of the UN and the US in policing the world; involvement in African affairs (particularly Darfur).
I think we will look back on the Noughties and fondly remember Final Salary Pension Schemes and first time buyers who aren't pension funds.
I think the decade will be defined by the iPod. Glossy. White. Easily concealed. Detached from reality around. Easily and frequently updated. Eclectic. Ubiquitous.
Looking forward to that decade I hope that we will also see the demise of political parties in their current form and a resurgence of public interest and engagement with politics. But I'm not holding my breath.
I think that this will be remembered as the decade of religious resurgence, culminating in the great showdown between the forces of dark and light - as God and the devil join forces to take on the might of Richard Dawkins.
...that or the 'X-Factor' decade
luc
Oh and reality television and CCTV cameras everywhere.
I agree with Jason's comments with regards to a resurgence of public interest and engagement with politics.
Lets hope the PM audience figures get bigger and bigger.
I think that this decade will be seen as marking renewed friction between Islam and the West. This conflict has never gone away and has bubbled away under the surface, but it is now in the open once again, causing even small incidents to spark passionate controversy.
The turn of the century has also seen the threat of Global Warming being taken seriously due to the steady accumulation of truly alarming evidence. Now we know climate change is for real we can take serious action to prevent it.
Happy New Year
Have we even decided what the defining characteristics of the Nineties were? And indeed that "Noughties" is the definitive name for this decade?
The upsurge of non-jobs in all sectors?
Reality TV and land wars in Asia.
The move of the 成人论坛 to Salford Quays and my inevitable ascent to media stardom? I can't imagine many luvvies being terribly keen to leave Old London Town (other depressing and dirty sprawling metropoli are available).
I hope to attain stardom in "Opera House", the new Sunday Morning news magazine presented from the eponymous building in Buxton.
Hey Jason, best of luck with your dash for fame!
I too hope to make it big this decade with my 80s tribute band 'Prefab House', sprouting from our recording base in the (eponymous) Pink Elephant building, London SE1.
Our first single entitled 'All in all you're just another breeze on the block' is scheduled for release on new year's eve, in a balloon.
Let's see who reaches the stars first!
luv
luc
Databases!!
Especially government ones! And linking them all together...
The concern, like the databases, is currently still patchy but I reckon by 2010 that it wil be a big, big issue.
We are sleepwaking into a big brother culture (what with CCTV as well); the only sliver of hope that I have is, even if they can combat the complicated and untested technology they'll never be able to get such a vast project as this actually implemented and being used by the public and public servants alike.
This is good news, as it means I won't need a licence from the government (aka ID card) to step outside my own door but a shameful waste of millions of pounds - our milions of pounds.
ID cards and DNA; the decade we gave our freedom away!
noughties huh?
reckon Jason's onto a good thing by mentioning the iPod (which isn't even the best tool in terms of functionality... but ooooohhhh just feel the surface....)
Mainly though this decade is a follow-through from the 80's "Me" generation. Now I get to have my environment with me at all times (either in a big car or with earphones). I don't have to interact if I choose not to.
And choice is about me not you. And choice is soooo important nowadays. Not bothered what's on the menu, as long as I have a choice of options (I'd rather 35 channels of cr*p than 15 channels of cr*p... 3 healthcare options rather than a single appropriate one...)
Also I get to be famous - me, me meeeeee. While people gawp on and think "it could be meee there...." and go and have yet more alcohol, splitting them from others to an even greater extent... the social oil that we all slip along on.
and blogs are all about meeeeeeeeeeeeee.
or so I thought.
All that's very simplistic.
Blogs for a start are a medium, and for every hundred rubbish, adolescent gurning cries of "hello world" and "pick me" there's one that you can connect with and grow from.
And choice is a fallacy - choice is based on knowledge, difficult complex knowledge like "which surgeon had fewer fatalities?" leading to fewer surgeons cutting open 'high risk' cases leading to... and as any designer will tell you, choice inhibits action. And whats the point of a choice between things I'm gonna ignore anyway....?
And 'my' environment is now balanced by a concern for our environment...
so, the noughties? Not so naughty, but maybe a bit more growed up?
I was going to say 'disintegration of social cohesion' - but I think Whisht expressed it better.
Electric Dragon (15), indeed. See my 8 abvove.
Whisht (22), hahahaha -- you did have me worried for a moment...
I think the noughties will be remembered as The Decade of Fear and Loathing...
Of course we've still another three years to go, but at the moment everyone so far sounds so "half-empty" instead of "half-full". Are we not in danger of becoming so aware of the threats that we fail to see the opportunities? Shall we spend the next three years declining into despair?
Most ordinary people seek good things and want the world to be a better place. "Most ordinary people" even includes politicians, lawyers, and others doing jobs we ridicule and despise. It even includes Americans, not all of whom admire Bush! It is not good enough for us to sit around criticising - we have the tools to talk to each other and, if we choose, we can use the next three years to press for things we believe in, to try to make a difference even in a small way and encourage our friends and neighbours to join in. We don't necessarily have to agree about what most needs to be done, as long as we do something and listen to and respect each other.
What other way is there to progress?
1. Climate change - once the yanks notice, and claim saving the planet as all their own idea
2. Loss of civil liberties - with a few more helpfully-timed 'terrorist attacks' to sharpen up the public's priorities
3. Stoking up the friction between fundamentalists of whatever culture or religion
But I'm with Aperitif ... we're only just past the halfway mark in this decade!
Fifi
erm - i think i was moderated out.
Aperitif made a comment on my "(22)" which doesn't seem to exist anymore.
If I offended anyone, I honestly didn't mean to. Its just I'd written a long boring bit of prose and wanted to inject some humour....
Honestly, apologies to anyone offended.
Sara I like to see the positives too, if only to keep from crying. Maybe, just maybe, the possibility of ordinary people communicating with other ordinary people through the mysteries of the interweb might make the politicians just a little more wary.
That would make the internet a good thing potentially and I feel that this decade may be seen as the one where the web was more than just for shopping.
Mary
The mega-database thing isn't to be feared - I will never ever work. If the CSA could not get a computer system that could cope with being updated live there is no way this megalyth will work.
I have no fear of CCTV but a strong hatred of the ID cards scheme as the plans are either futile or disingenuous (and given this Govt's record I think I know which).
I personally think the DNA thing is good as long as it is used in targetted ways to address serious crimes. My only worry is how strong a match is possible with aged samples taken from 1970s crime scenes and how well juries will be directed as to the reliability of such evidence. That is if we still have juries - I forget where we ended up on that one.
Picking up Sara's plea (25) I would dearly love to stand against my MP (holder of a very minor Govt post and among the loyalest in Parliament) as an independent in the spirit suggested by Claire Short. But I have no organisational ability and am adopting the "it is better not to have tried and failed when you could just not try at all". Perhaps I should just go straight to the Lords?
One last thought, the decade will be remembered for drinking shots. There will be a further concentration of alcohol so that they can mist it onto you when enter a pub and not bother with the glasses.
I'd agree with Sara on those that I meet being generally focussed on things, any things, being improved.
I would probably argue for the NHS database though, which I understand it to be linked to social services records, not that everyone will be able to access everything, but it could prevent the gaps in communciation which have occured in recent high profile cases.
Whisht - don't think it was offensive - I laughed, while it was there, and possibly after. Things do vanish doo do doo dodo doo, including this probably. Its them mods - they're all Chris Evans fans. Actually, they may be Chris Evans????
It sounds too obvious or boring to say this, maybe, because we're still right in the middle of it - but before 2000, very few households and workplaces had the internet. Now almost all do. Every event and attitude and social trend in the noughties has been - and will continue to be - most defined by this.
Ah, whisht, Whisht! You haven't got it in you to offend anyone.
Much too warm and thoughtful!
Ooh - SO has just plonked a huge teapot and a pair of mugs in front of me. I guess we're in for some quality couch potato time...
Fifi x
whisht it's still there at 21
Mary
Misht it, whisht. I don't think I've seen you being offensive, so I'm sure it was OK.
But on a more general point, I thought this post was (originally, anyway) about things we could call 'sooooo noughties' - so things that are ephemeral. And probably not very serious. Except the 'me' thingy.
So - what'll be 'soooooo 2006'?
Well, it's about being... PC?
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JJJ A Happy New Year to you!!! JJJ
Islam showing its hand as the gravest threat to our peace & well-being, society, laws and customs.
Noughts implies zeros and theres lots of them signposted in the noughties even if not all yet implemented. Heres just a few. Zero movement without ID Cards. Zero intelligence from Governments. Zero common sense in health and safety issues. Zero audio quality in Digital Radio. Zero consultation in post office closures, Hospital A and E closures, nuclear power stations, and planning issues. Zero action on climate change despite much talk.zero programs worth watching on TV. and finally Zero responsibility for any and all mistakes by anyone in a position of authority.
I won't predict about the noughties, but the nineties will probably be regarded in a hundred years' time as the decade of serious greed, or the decade when it started to get out of hand. The upside, just for Mary, is that not *everyone* got that way... but it's beginning to look as if a majority did.
That ties in with the me-me-me thing, but also covers the way that everyone seemed to feel they had to have whatever the latest "toy" was at any given moment whatever its drawbacks for everyone else (yes, I'm thinking 4x4s here, and patio heaters, let's fry the planet as quick as ever we can) and with the way people stopped giving way to each other on roundabouts so that all the roundabouts now have to have traffic lights on them as well: even giving a bit of leeway to someone else seemed to be impossible for a lot of people. Symptoms of greed, along with lots of others too numerous to mention or too obvious to need mentioning.
Let's face it, when even the wife of the most senior politician in the country is seen to spend her time with her pudgy little over-paid paw out for every freebie that might be going even if it hasn't been offered yet, and is notorious for that sort of greedy behaviour, we can't exactly expect anyone whose income isn't in the hundreds of thousands to think of not going "grab-grab-grab". Why should they?
Whisht - Eric obviously didn't like you scoffing his SO. Meanwhile, I didn't like you mentioning Eric having an SO, so if I could've moderated maybe I would have... but really, it was amusing and I can't see where it was offensive. Maybe your wit is just Too Much Competition for Eric...
I'm still wearing my womble costume, by the way.
Sara, if I were prepared to consider what might be the essence of a decade we're not much more than halfway through, I would certainly take your approach -- you are quite right and I salute you.
Love to everyone.
What defined the Noughties...?
...tracking down alien life on Earth, and arming the human race against the future. The 21st century was when everything changed and we had to be ready.
er... I may have been watching too much "Torchwood"...
Sara,
"Most ordinary people seek good things and want the world to be a better place."
Most 'ordinary' people also want to see every exotic location on the planet before the rest of most ordinary people get there to spoil it.
I hope the noughties will go down as the decade when and the purported thereof were exposed as the most destructive () idea let loose upon an unsuspecting world. The decline of liquid fossil fuels may help in this.
A foreign holiday? Sooooo Noughties! Imported food? Soooo Noughties! Twenty percent of the Earth's people consuming eighty percent of the ? Sooooo Noughties! Living beyond our ? Sooooo Noughties!
If only.
Happy New Year
And may it be a slow one.....
xx
ed
He who knows he has enough is rich. -- Lao Tzu
Small country, few people -
Hundreds of devices,
But none are used.
People ponder on death
And don't travel far.
They have carriages and boats,
But no one goes on board;
Weapons and armor,
But no one brandishes them.
They use knotted cords for counting.
Sweet their food,
Beautiful their clothes,
Peaceful their homes,
Delightful their customs.
Neighboring countries are so close
You can hear their chickens and dogs.
But people grow old and die
Without needing to come and go.
and, also, in similar vein, from the same translator:
But when judges judge straight, for neighbors
As well as for strangers, and never turn their backs
On Justice, their city blossoms, their people bloom.
You'll find peace all up and down the land
And youngsters growing tall, because broad-browed Zeus
Hasn't marked them out for war. Nor do famine or blight
Ever afflict folk who deal squarely with each other.
They feast on the fruits of their tended fields,
And the earth bears them a good living too.
Mountain oaks yield them acorns at the crown,
Bees and honey from the trunk. Their sheep
Are hefty with fleece, and women bear children
Who look like their parents. In short, they thrive
On all the good things life has to offer, and they
Never travel on ships. The soil's their whole life.
Hesiod, singing around a campfire some time around 2800 years ago.
Translated by Stanley Lombardo
I don't think we will define the naughties as 2000-09. After all, when we say "the forties", we're basically referring to 1939-45, with the rest of the decade being forgotten or a prequille to the '50's.
I remember one newspaper trying to imply the 90's were a much more caring time than the '80s; printed on 1 Jan 1990! So much for that prediction.
I'd say it would be '97 to perhaps '07, or depending on how Brown continues. I was going to give a series of predictions of what would be the hallmarks, but got too depressed...:-(
Oh Ed (stamping foot hard) but I want to see the world! Couldn't we give eveyone the same number of carbon miles, or pay them back on one of those web sites which I am sure you know about which make one's holiday neutral. You could trade your miles to do something even more ecologically sound, I would salve your conscience on my behalf & I could live with abroad happening once a year...
I'd quite like to dump the yes, no phrase in conversation, as in 'yeeeaaah, no' or the snappier 'yes but no', as immortalised by Catherine Tate. Where did that come from? That question is rhetorical!
Ed - I agree - what I wrote was quite naive. But I still believe it's got a lot of truth in it. I hate to say it, but it's what we vote governments in for, although we probably don't know it. Half of us doesn't want to be curbed, but the other half knows it's right. Just take inheritance tax, for example. We all fight tooth and nail not to pay it, but why? It's probably the fairest tax of all, because we stand to gain something we ourselves have not earned. It's not a question of paying x% of tax, but of gaining y% of someone else's wealth.
I'm going to get shot now. But gradually we all have to be willing to have a little less, or else the rest of the world will not have a little bit more. Let's accept the things that don't hurt too badly.
Some of you will shout loudly - "but the politicians (them, of course) spend it badly." That's where we have to put pressure on them. So there's effort from us, and effort from them.
I guess I'm an optimistic nutter.
Helen, my dearest Sister,
"Couldn't we give everyone the same number of carbon miles,"
Everyone? All six and a half billion of us, or just us 'white folks'?, the ones who are already spending (each of us) five to twenty times our fair share?
Sorry, but it has to be said. One fifth of us (you, me and all our cousins, and I'm probably in the upper third of this fifth) are spending four fifths of the annual harvest. Just how long do we reckon that can go on?
And Sara, Naive is ok, and we're all in denial, but,
"But gradually we all have to be willing to have a little less, or else the rest of the world will not have a little bit more."
If one fifth are eating from the table with four fifths on it, I think it may be a little bit more than 'a little' less, if ye ken what that means.
The sooner we face this, the less painful the adjustment.
Oh how I love to be a party pooper! Sooooo un-Noughties!
xx
ed
"A carbon footprint the size of a small planet? How Noughties!" Marvin P Android.
Am I the only person who is irritated by this constant speculation about the timing of Saddam Hussein's execution? PM sadly has not been immune today. I fully accept that the execution itself is an item of news, but we all know it has to be sometime in the next 30 days. Personally I'd be quite happy just to hear about it afterwards rather than sit through countless news bulletins where peripheral actors in this drama are encouraged to speculate in fine detail about what may or may not happen and when. I don't like the use of the word pornographic in circumstances other than the obvious, but there IS something pornographic about this revelling in the periphery of death which I for one am finding very distasteful indeed.
And that was before I heard that the event was to be filmed. How long before pirate versions of THAT are available on hte interenet?
47 AA - probably about 10 minutes after it happens, I'd guess.
Personally, this decade is when I completely lost faith in the world.
Ah no Belinda, don't lose faith in the world.
In governments, in politicians, yes but not in people. It's an amazing thought but you know most people are basically good and well meaning.
Belinda (AND ALL)
hugs hugs hugs hugs, AND smaller meals.
xx
ed
Oops! Too many garbanzas! Sorry...
I contend that most politicians are basically good and well meaning too, Annie. They are people, after all.
Jason (29), I agree with you I don't think the government, or anybody else for that matter, can deliver on a project with such a broad reach as ID cards and so see this particular piece of legislation as just a very big expensive white elephant.
But what worries me about databases, Helen Sparkles (30) is the bits you don't get to agree to - thankfully they had to compromise on this with the NHS records and you no longer have to prove considerable distress to have your personal infomration removed from it.
Some databases do have their uses, like the Oyster Card one that lets me order my new season ticket on line - but to get that functionality I also have to accept Transport for London monitoring my movements around London throughout the day on a central database. Well, I don't really want them to do that but I don't get any choice.
Join that up with my health records and my DNA on file with the MPS and you've got a pretty powerful tool which facilitates the removal of my civil liberties.
its not that I really think that everyone in government thinks we have too many cicil liberties but that they just don't value them on our behalf and are therefore happy to compromise them to achieve whatever aim their latest piece of legislation has.
1.Climate change is really ,really happening.
2.I have been politically naive and believed what I should'nt.
3.I.T is brilliant and I shall never be without my new laptop.
4.My kids have grown up and I really love them as they now are-fabulous young adults with such high ideals.
I could go on but it would be toooooo boring!
Nice noughties!
Have a super New Year everybody-see you in 2007.
Mollyxxx
Oh, well, admin annie, we all know now: about 3 am GMT
Jo (54) looked at from one angle (that we have a benign state), the problems you mention re your travel movements, dna and medical records are no cause for concern. At worst they may assist the police in solving a crime, the role we all support.
Being less confident of the intentions of the state, however, we have the situation of our "leaders" using such information to their own ends. I do not think we are even close to such an Orwellian nightmare, but there are echoes of it what with the Stockwell shooting and the recent terror legislation.
A concern for me is what happened to Germany in the space of ten short years from around 1923. All manner of things that a government may know about you now that is innocuous could suddenly become lethal.
My local authority's housing department - sorry, arms-length management organsiation - send out a questionaire every year to tenants asking among other things for various personal details of all occupants of their housing stock. Including religion and sexuality. Now I am sure that this information is intended to create figures which let them better help the gay Buddhists of the borough or something but, in the wrong hands, it is again lethal.
I am thinking that the Noughties represent the demise of the Information Age and the dawning of the Data Age instead.
Jason,
Whether our state is 'benign' or malignant depends upon who and where one is. I strongly suspect our state is seen as malignant when it metastises into the present world-policing, cluster-bombing, shockandawe-ing form, at lease by those on the receiving end, who suspect our motives (secure supplies of our predominant share of certain limited fuelstuffs).
I agree, by the way, that almost all people are wonderful and kind, but, as we see time and again, power corrupts, and wealth beyond need (most of present company) is just as corrupting a form of power as any. Politicians (and religious leaders?) usually start out as some of the best and brightest of us, but.....(look around you) the higher they go, the rottener they become.
xx
ed
Molly,
I too, love my grown kids more than can be expressed and am fortunate to have one living at the bottom of the garden with his absolutely excellent partner (of the opposite sex, even, not that it should matter!)
I've achieved (or accidentally arrived at) the state of triple freedom: Mortgage paid, Kids grown, Ancestors buried. I recommend it.
I too, love my laptop. A significant advance upon my first computer, which had 500 bytes of RAM, and less than three decades ago that was! It doesn't grow or otherwise create food, though.
For that, I am indebted to centuries of cultivation of a glacial gift, with loving contributions from both recycled kitchen waste and dung from the adjoining byre. I cannot but carry on the task begun so very long ago.
In the noughties (in fact ever since Bretton Woods* put us on a high-consumption basis), we seek goods which will either last forever (plastic doubleglazing) or be easily discarded and replaced. In former times, every year, and 'maintenance' was accepted unquestioningly as part of life.
* At Bretton Woods, the great and the good convened to determine how we could maintain the economic recovery stimulated by wartime when 'the coming peace' arrived. Do a giggle if interested.
Happy New Year
xx
ed
P.S. The Noughties resemble no other period as much as the 'Roaring Twenties', and anyone interested can learn .
;-)
Jason (57): Exactly, Germany between the wars is always what I think of, when I'm thinking the worst.
Human Rights and Civil Liberties are not there to protect us from the benign governments but the malignant!
They are universal and mean that we don't have to rely on the hope that our rulers won't metastise into something else. Thanks for the new word, by the way, Ed (58).
It's still possible to give our freedom away to a benign government!
Happy New Year, Everyone!
Excuse the big catch up, but I have to do some actual work now!
As someone for whom diversity was a richness I missed hugely when I left London for the flatlands, I would really like to understand what is beyond multiculturalism. I have listened to Yasmin-Alibi Brown, & read George Alagiah & still don鈥檛 know which way to turn. Apart form that I would like a return to the proper use of parliament, so that my social conscience can be exercised through democratic channels & single issue groups would sit in the midst rather than having to shout so loudly to be heard. Peter Hennessey tells us that this PM has more power than even the US President, particularly in terms of his ability to pass major legislation such as going to war & getting the budget through. We need a check to balance that power, but now we see the importance of the Hol, & even the royal family.
Jo (54) I can understand you not wanting your movements around London monitored, but what if that was used to improve your daily commute? I don't know what it is used for BTW. & Jason (57) most of our 鈥榣eaders鈥 won鈥檛 have access to the databases unless with very good reason, they don鈥檛 automatically get it because they are politicians; in fact it could be a barrier. Those who use it will be professionals in the medical & social care professions predominantly, & I trust them, not because I am na茂ve, rather because I would rather trust that most are aiming to do a really good job than assume I should sue them when they make a mistake. That is a trend I loathe more than any, & congratulate anyone who decides they could help rather than condemn
Johnnie (3) I am in love with our flat screen!
Jason (21) I agree & choice is a way of appearing to give us something while not giving us anything, because we get to choose between choices we might not have chosen...
Ed (47) well, I was just stamping my foot, & it was all about me, but only me & not even those like me! I would share your outlook on so much of the world & take issue with the entire concept of globalisation; read Paul Hirst if you haven鈥檛 already, who would tell you it benefits so few of us & there is very little which is universally global about it. Even the world wide web is hardly that, with few having access to computers or connections, & while the lives of Africans are being revolutionised by mobile phones in a country with few landlines, they are often making choices we don鈥檛 have to in order to own one. I鈥檓 afraid you & I, as well as all those who agree with you, are never going to be reconciled on this issue. I am still troubled by the imperialism of environmentalism; the wealthy north policing the world again & dictating methods of development which are nothing akin to those we employed. I am also not sure why the political agenda has moved to absorb this particular single issue, but suspect it is to seduce a populace otherwise sometime alienated by the political process. I will maintain there is as much sound evidence to support that climate change is a fact of this earth, rather than purely environmental, which is not to say that we shouldn鈥檛 treat our planet well.
Otter (14) you are absolutely right to point out that the conflict with Islam is a resurgence of pre-existing tensions, as were the Balkans, Rwanda, & now Iraq, if not in entirely similar ways. Who was it said that history is just the same thing over & over again? The philosophy of Islam is not that of fundamentalists Colin (37) & there is a way for us to show respect for the cultural mores of others, especially when we might find their moral compass is predominantly pointing in the same direction as ours.
No, no Belinda (50), what world did you lose faith in? Not mine please!
Ed (58) we could as easily read The Prince, as you may have mentioned previously, so who the blinking heck did say history is just the same thing over & over again.
HelenSparkles, you are a more trusting soul than I.
I'm afraid I see unfolding events today as a modern day precursor to the world situation depicted in Orwell's 1984.
A couple of years ago I even started compiling references from Orwell that could be linked to today ... but it became too depressing, there were simply too many.
Anyone who'd like to take up the project is welcome to my notes!
Fifi
Fifi, well I have a faith which helps, & I have faith in humanity which entirely contradicts reality sometimes, perhaps it is eternal optimism but sometimes it is just better to hope. I have met some of the doctors involved in the research & setting up of a system to combine health & social care records. I guess that will be this database, & all intentions are good, but I just hope.
On the other hand, I do have a complete hatred of the plague of CCTV cameras, which I think is part & parcel of the demonisation of young people & a draconian law & order agenda which criminalises a log of young poeple who would not previously have been. Please see previous rants for ASBO rant!
I also recently read about a family who decided not to sue, but to help doctors who had acted in error in their case, so that it couldn't happen to others - can't find it to link to at the mo' but probably in The Guardian!
Helen, my Sister,
"I will maintain there is as much sound evidence to support that climate change is a fact of this earth, rather than purely environmental," Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you mean "anthropogenic", as either way it's "environmental".
Climate change is indeed BIG and very much with us, whatever the inconceivably complex and interwoven causes, of which we are significant.
Exceeding the carrying capacity of our life support system is EVEN BIGGER than climate change. Excessively and disproportionately drawing on that life support system for a privileged North, is just plain IMMORAL, not to mention the inevitable social backlash from those unfairly disadvantaged.
From the best response to the modern problem:
V. There was, as a consequence, a growing worldwide effort on behalf of economic decentralization, economic justice, and ecological responsibility. We must recognize that the events of September 11 make this effort more necessary than ever. We citizens of the industrial countries must continue the labor of self-criticism and self-correction. We must recognize our mistakes.
VI. The paramount doctrine of the economic and technological euphoria of recent decades has been that everything depends on innovation. It was understood as desirable, and even necessary, that we should go on and on from one technological innovation to the next, which would cause the economy to "grow" and make everything better and better. This of course implied at every point a hatred of the past, of all things inherited and free. All things superseded in our progress of innovations, whatever their value might have been, were discounted as of no value at all.
--
xx
ed
Further reading: A Green History of the World, by Clive Ponting.
Ed(58) A lovely quote. You are right, imo, that "benign-ness" is a matter of perspective.
Fifi (62) I was mentally doing a similar thing. A recent flurry of statistics had me in mind of one section. But, if there is hope, it is in the Poles.
Speaking of The Prince,
For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit
by the preservation of the old institutions,
and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new ones."
-- Machiavelli, The Prince (1513)
And it was Santayana:
鈥淭hose who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it鈥
George Santayana
Does sharing the burden of awareness lighten the load? I don't think so, so far, but when it becomes fully spread, perhaps we'll actually find it light as a feather???
Och! Well,
I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!
............
Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!
, R.I.P. (To a Mouse)
Ed, I probably disappoint, but really can鈥檛 do any other reading at the moment, perhaps when my research is complete.
We are never going to agree on this, because I will not put the bigger picture first, & we are still saying do as I say not as I did, that we now know best because we have (n the rich north)decided the environment is paramount.
The 'developing' world may well benefit from a more environmentally sound approach, but we would still be asking others to 'modernise' in a way we didn't, which economically cost us much less. I do not anticipate subsidies for development, from richer nations who benefit from unfair trade, & who instead impose tariffs.
I would agree that modernisation is not the be all and end all of life at all, & think the constant urge to renew is sad, but regulating others still rates as imperialism when we are not going to provide a way to adapt.
I have no idea why September the 11th has any relevance here, perhaps you can enlighten me. At the time of the WTC event, the USA had killed more people in South American countries than died on that day in NY, not that all lives are not valued, but it was really surely no great surprise that someone took action against them?
I wouldn't say that the 9/11 bombers weren't terrorists, but I also wouldn't say the USA are also on the side of angels... we all know who supported many of the regimes which have since tumbled, & left countries including Iraq, in a state of civil war.
Speaking of The Prince:
For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit
by the preservation of the old institutions,
and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new ones."
-- Machiavelli, The Prince (1513)
And it was Santayana who said, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
And it was Garret Hardin, who wrote the "" and ""
More happy holiday reading.....
xx
ed
Helen,
You don't recognise the degree of our agreement. The problems in the South are created and fed by our enormous appetites. As to the relevance of 9/11, just look at what Wendell is saying.
The resentment (hatred, frustration, retribution, etc.) illustrated by the attacks has yet to be acknowledged and taken on board by 'our side', which is most definitely that of the Angels. They were indeed terrorists, but who made them so?
You know we are in agreement. BTW, "The Environment" is that which totally contains us. It ain't reducible to a political entity or 'cause'. It is "the big picture".
xx
ed
I was thinking of Hegel "What experience and history teach is this-that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it."
NOT that of the Angels!
(But y'all knew that was what I MEANT to say)
*blame the keyboard, the weather, the light, anything but myself.....mutter mutter mutter.
Stomps out to look at the moon.
I would be quite happy to agree with you Ed, although I know I don鈥檛 on this. Much as some people are happy to tell me they don鈥檛 care about politics, or can鈥檛 do maths, I can tell you I don鈥檛 care as much you do about the environment whether it be my immediate environment, ours or the planet鈥檚. Perhaps we might though be clearer if our 鈥榰s鈥 as nations, & our 鈥榰s鈥 as individuals were differentiated between; I could easily say that individuals could be on the side of the angels, but I really don't think that applies to northern nation-states.
I care so much more about the social justice that will not be embraced by the political, or environmental, agenda until political systems are broken down, or established, to provide for fairer trade. While friends of mine are refusing to buy flowers flown in, Colombians have nowhere to sell their carnations, & the alternative in terms of comparable profit is the coca crop鈥.
The hegemonic status of our liberal democracies is revered, not only by those who practice it, and it is an enduring philosophy simply because it benefits a few who hold power. I will not prioritise the needs of the environment until those in power do something to mitigate the effects they are having upon on others, even as they are focussing upon climate change because nothing
Was a bit confused by the angels business, so ignore my response, which is covered by your correction!
The noughties? Read the first and last entry. And then all the entries in between.
Mary
Helen and Ed : It is a joy to watch you two fencing around each other, and gradually realising you're on the same side but using slightly different weapons!
Fifi
Helen,
The only difference seems to be that you don't think we should ask the third worlders to forgo what we've done, and I don't think we should ask them to forgo what we refuse to stop doing.
In neither case do I think they'll pay us a blind bit of attention. Would you?
xx
ed
I hope not!
What do I feel sums up the fist decade of 21st. century? Selfish politicians, feathering their own nests and being profligate with taxpayers hard earned contributions.
Helen,
Perhaps granny already knows how to suck eggs, but if not, I commend :
And his list of essays on
George is a busy thinker, and I'm glad he has a lectern and is sometimes to be heard on PM and Today.... More would be better.
"I will not prioritise the needs of the environment until those in power do something to mitigate the effects they are having upon on others..."
The environment has no needs.
xx
ed
Naught as in big fat zero
As in failed to deliver
As in unfit for purpose
As in postulating pontificating pompous politicians- anyone need any hot air, carbon free of course.
As in Nil Points ( even though you play your joker)
As in the zeros that follow the city fat cats and their pay rise and rise and rise.
As in the differance between the 2 major political partys.
As in the worth of Reality TV shows, TV cooks,game shows, Home makeover shows... 99% of whats on TV really.
As in the charm and wit of " Quote unquote"
As in the efforts to turn Iraq into a land fit for democratising.
Who is this granny you speak of? I am officially insulted.
Perhaps my phrasing was off, but I would say that there are needs to be met, if you want to tell me that any needs are those of humanity that is fine, but it doesn鈥檛 make me care more. Everything you quote backs up your arguments, which isn鈥檛 surprising, it would be my resource material if I thought what you thought, but I don鈥檛. I am familiar with some of your sources & find Monibot engaging although I often take issue with him.
I am now wondering what does make me think differently, because I don鈥檛 think the same things I always did, discussions often make me revise my opinions, but I have really held fast on some things, this being one of them. It isn鈥檛 pure stubbornness, so it has been useful to think about it, but the repetition of the same message is not doing anything here Ed.
I suspect it is because I now see a political agenda fast moving towards environmental issues because it seems to have become suddenly sexy to politicians. Poverty, deprivation, homelessness shouldn鈥檛 still be the problems they are, & in a country as rich as ours, resourcing the NHS & social care should be straightforward. I wonder why we can't address some of the really gritty social issues adequately, & I don't want the focus to veer away from them, because it makes those very small voices even harder to be heard. Not that I am not at all advocating neglecting the rest of the world; which I also care about, not least the shambles in Iraq.
I just can鈥檛 see the point of worrying about saving the planet, or its future, if we are not prepared to take care of those who inhabit it now whoever they are.
Helen,
It was a metaphorical state of grannyness (implying lore and wisdom) to which i referred. ;-)
"I will not prioritise the needs of the environment until those in power do something to mitigate the effects they are having upon on others..."
We create 'those in power' and we are doing the damage to others. We are consuming more than our share, we are shockandawe-ing their homes. We are buying the flowers grown by folk who can't grow food for themselves instead.
if it is to be it is up to me. It is for the 'others' that we must save the planet (and for ourselves)
We certainly can't wait for 'those in power' to do the right thing. How long do you reckon that'll take?
Pronouns are important!
xx
ed
Ed , we don't create those in power, or only in a very limited sense. We can only put into power those who put themselves up for it, and there are certain ways that all would be powerful folk think. As someone once said, if Britain were a genuine democracy we would never have gone into Europe since most of the population were anti Europe from the word go and haven't really shifted on that premise. But there was no-one for them to vote for since both/all three (delete which you think doesn't apply) main parties were pro Europe.
This is not to disagree with your underlying point about the developed world creating havoc and doing damage; but we cannot castigate ourselves for electing those who do it, since the ones we didn't elect would have done the same. We do what we can, but we cannot do everything. Once they're elected we can rarely change their minds on something they want to do; the anti war demonstrations are a clear case in point.
Ed - re your 49 - great quaotation! Sheds an interesting light on La Thatcher's statement that there was no such thig as society (or words to that effect), I think...
Unless I鈥檓 much mistaken I think I detect two consistent threads running through these discussions which may mean we do have a take already on what the 鈥楴oughties鈥 represent.
Recent years have seen climate change and what we are doing to the planet become mainstream in discussions in the media, if not yet addressed by actions.
Therein the second thread 鈥 that ordinary folk feel alienated from their political leaders who are not representing their views or taking the actions that the majority want to see. Increasing centralisation of government, combined with the decline of decisions taken as a result of cabinet discussion but instead by a small presidential clique; parties dominated by their spin doctors and MPs afraid to deviate from the party line; democracy flouted by a 鈥榝irst past the post鈥 system that allows massive domination by one party on the basis of a non-majority public vote; a view of government by those in power that results in attempts to control all aspects of our lives through a tick-box approach that deprives individuals of the need to think about what they do or take individual responsibility for their actions; attempts at control that extend to collection of vast amounts of data on us all which cannot be held securely and has the potential to support an increasingly repressive regime.
All of this combines to produce a sense of helplessness 鈥 why not continue to fly across the world, own several cars, keep the lights on all the time since nothing I as an individual can do will make any difference. Why not just stop voting for politicians, since they don鈥檛 seem to listen even when millions turn out to protest, as with the anti Iraq War event.
As a natural optimist, I hope that the latter part of the decade may see some of these trends reversed, that we will take really effective action to protect the country against the effects of climate change as well as helping to reduce our predation of the planet that causes it. I hope that we will be able to revitalise democracy and decentralise power so that decisions are taken at the level of those most affected. I hope that we will recognise that we are no longer an imperial power, will withdraw from military adventures across the world and encourage others to do the same. I hope that we will play our part in helping the developing world deal with all the challenges they face.
Those are my hopes for the New Year 鈥 am I hopelessly optimistic? Is there any chance of any of these things coming to pass? Or will The Noughties just be the time when we sat back and did nowt?
Ed (59),
I caught part of a programme, possibly BH (somehow, I've had a CRAFT moment), where the solution* to global warming was a return to [the economics, I assume, of] 1932 overnight and not to improve after that.
*= not getting any worse that it would do with the time constant of ~ decade that is currently predicted. If you follow that particular line.
It's so worrying that so many will be forced to get a "pension" which is linked to the stock market, which is itself linked to ever-growing conspic. consumption... so either a gamble on growth to fund the pension (and kill the planet), or loss of all savings, (to possibly save the planet).
Anne P.
Centralisation is a one way process and cannot reverse itself. Interestingly enough, there are no centralised systems to be found in Nature. Similarly, independence cannot be granted, but must, by definition be seized, as otherwise it is dependent upon the grantor - think about it.
I have given to such matters. As to the conversion of public sentiment to a more Earth-friendly condition, I'm afraid I must quote my mentor yet again:
"A change of heart or of values without a practice is only another pointless luxury of a passively consumptive way of life."
-- Wendell Berry in ""
Deepthought, I hear you loud and clear.
Ten two letter words to live by:
If it is to be it is up to me.
When you find yourself using the third person plural, pause and think about it.
Happy New Year to one and all.
And, once again, because it's so apposite:
It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more uncertain of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new order of things. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institutions, and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new ones.
--Machiavelli, The Prince (1513)
xx
ed
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
With apologies to the Great Soul,
WE must be the change WE wish to see in the world.
Ed, my granny was a witch, so you will excuse the enquiry?!
Wouldn't you like the "noughties" to be remembered for a spreading of tolerance, the advancement of persuasion and a realisation that a negotiation may mean I have to give up something to gain an advantage.
In fact the opposite in almost all cases is the reality. We are a less tolerant society in most respects. We don't persuade, we bully, from the kids in playgrounds down to the parliamentary members. And the word negotiation seems to mean "I get what I want and you make the sacrifices".
I expect we will never learn...