The glass box for wednesday
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RE: Nick Clegg's pledge on ID cards. I'd like to see how far he's really prepared to go. Otherwise, I'm tempted to believe that this is a stunt to boost his play for the LibDem leadership.
Nevertheless, if he's genuine, then I applaud him taking a stance on principle and I hope the majority of the British people are not yet sufficiently dulled by our consumerist culture to abandon their liberty so readily.
I have to say that Nick Clegg has gone up in my estimation after his piece re ID cards. I hope this galvanises the debate about this pernicious piece of legislation. The idea that a government database and piece of plastic can act as a cure-all for ID theft, benefit fraud, terrorism, etc. needs to be challenged and debated. At the moment, anyone questioning the current line is ridiculed as being soft on terror, and willing to have their ID used for organised crime, etc. This beggars belief in a mature society. We, as a populus need to have the ability to debate such a wide-reaching piece of legislation before it is enacted through Parliament. So far there has been no actual evidence presented to the public as to how an ID card could prevent acts of terror, nor is there any historical evidence that the government is capable of setting up or running a database that is secure, or could be error free. As for the idea that in an online world this card can help with ID theft appears to me to be a pure flight of fancy. Are we going to force online traders/banks/etc to check these details before agreeing to a transaction/confirmation/etc? How would they do that? Does this mean we'll all have to have ID card readers attached to our PCs? What about companies/banks/etc based in foreign countries? Which set of laws govern such situations? Am I going to have to trust that companies in other countries, wherever they may be, not to release the data to others? If it is released incorrectly., who would be taken to court? In what country would they be charged?
In various IT idustry papers I receive regularly, IT professionals despair as to the state of existing and ongoing IT projects (the current NHS national database is already riddled with problems, an is generally considered to be on the point of collapse before it's even rolled out into national use). Regarding the "it'll help in the war on terror" argument, can I just ask "how?". Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks in the last 30 years? Would it have stopped 9/11,? What about the Bali bomb? What about the Madrid bombings?
What about 7/7? What about the attacks on the USS Cole? How about the attack on the World Trade Centre in 1993? What about the thirty plus years of terror we in ritain went through during the Irish Troubles? The whole proposed system is pointless, costly, and has such a limited benefit as to vastly be out-weighed by the costs to society.
P.S. Sorry, Rog, but your 2nd comment on last night's beach hasn't come true. The Diana inquest has arisen again. My issue with the amount of coverage of the inquest in PM is that quality newspapers are capable of covering this as a one paragraph piece on page 10 to 15, rather than being something worthy of the first 5 or 6 pages (something that I consider PM to be equivalent to).....
Are there PM listeners who still do not have a clue as to what 500g of meat is?? For heaven's sake the UK has been metric for the purchase of food products for years now; yet still, for a fair chunk of the interview Carolyn seemed to be trying to get her interviewee to say, that's "so and so" in pounds and ounces.
Leaving that aside, I can't help thinking that eating red meat and drinking some alcohol is probably preferable to the safest way to treat food, and that is to avoid eating it at all. Malnutrition (or becomming a veggie) seems the only way to avoid being liable to an increase in this, that or the other cancer, or heaven forbid, heart, kidney, liver or any other vital organ damage.
Haven't our "scientists" got anything more important to investigate these days?
David Traynier: whoever becomes Lib Dem leader, it looks as though we'll get someone who will stand up for distinctive policies, as opposed to aiming for the vanishingly small gap between the other two parties.
ID cards, tax, green issues, Trident ... there's plenty of scope for disctinctiveness.
Sid
Did I hear correctly - a Mr Lamb talking speaking on behalf of meat producers?
I can't believe your programme gave air time to that ridiculous person Heather Mills McCartney. Shame on the morning tv programme that did the same. Let's concentrate on the more meaningful matters in life and dump this dreadfully tedious story.
Tonight on PM you had a man reporting the depth of feeling among Muslims in Britain of the type that led to the 7/7 bombings in London, and a Mr Ahmed, I think, who wanted this to be downplayed as it would exacerbate feelings between the races.
Could I point to the case in Weimar Germany when, as my Jewish, Upper Middle Class biology teacher with three doctrates said, she had no idea that things were going to change. In fact life looked rather boring.
When unemployment went up to 30%, things changed very rapidly. Would they had been more aware of feelings among the working class. The result could not have been worse.
Perhaps you have seen the report in the Daily Telegraph of the return of quotes, the far right, in the Balkans as poverty increases again, including plans for a nationalist Czech Party to march through the old Jewish quarter of Prague on the anniversary of the creation of Czechoslovakia by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.
This also happens to be the anniversary of Kristallnacht.
Michael Moore, Marple, Stockport.
With regard to the HMMcC story - I have no opinion either way as I have no reliable source from which to base it on, more importantly, I am not remotely interested.
However, one point I do wish to take issue with is that the journalism lecturer stated that he did not think that HMMcC had any basis on which to complain about the press calling her a paedophile. In the clip that preceded his interview, HMMcC said that the press haven't treated paedophiles as badly as they've treated her. Why was this erroneous assertion by the lecturer not challenged?
Not normally known as a pedant, this annoyed me to a ridiculous level.
Andrew (3):
Yes, me.
Sequin & the team, keep on with Imperial measures please. (Fahrenheit would be useful too.)
I concur on the Heather, Diana, Paris, etc. matters. Even sport would be a step above these subjects.
xx
ed
P.S. Chicken Little was right!
Micheal Moore Of stockport? Mr Lamb advocating the eating of pork chops (rather than Lamb shops)? Brilliant!
Seriously, why did we have to hear the meat guy's opinion - he went on for so long and was a poor and muddled speaker. We have known for years about red meat. When I lived in New Zealand 15 years ago, the connection was obvious in that that country has a very high incidence of colon cancer (they are very high meat and dairy eaters there) - which is to do with meat taking too long to pass through the digestive track etc,,,, the slow process -slower than veg, means the meat is already putrifying enroute - not good for the colon!
I am no expert perhpas we can have a genuinely neutral nutritionist confirm or deny this theory.
On Deaf and blind children, my God! it was incredible to hear of this terrible story of Britain today. why don't this group band together and make a 'class action'? These disgusting councils that are there to 'just say no', and just so as to make sure their pension and wages are not to be reduced. And what of the story that hit even News night some months ago, of Councils' PC dictating that millions are spent on translating for migrants - and for years, and so never encouraging immigrants to bother learning English! I have a friend who is paid a large hourly rate to do this job as a freelance on call! This scandalous story was just allowed to die away as most do! And so it all continues as usual, showing that councils would rather help (or not help in that it is a perverse) immigrants than help the host community - especially kids who need statements etc and now this. Also, my elderly neighbours can't get the help they need yet they were the world war 2 fighters!!!
On Muslims blowing us and them selves up - it is less that they are angry and more that they are they are hiddeously brainwashed (more than other religions)from a very early age into a believing in some kind of after life... so then they are vulnerable to ' the calling when it comes' , from those who find it all very 'exciting' in some addictive kind of way! They are not angry, they feel honoured to do it !!!! It is the martre syndrome except this mob like to take others with them - i.e. others who did not make this disgusting choice. It is similar to those Japanese Kama Karsi (sorry for spelling) guys - all hyped up with righteousness and promises of something after! Ha! no free thinking person does such a thing - or if they do - such as a buddhist monk who may set light to (just) himself in protest. That producer/director is on an ego trip no doubt... why doesn't he offer himself to these 'nutters'.. if it is all 'so understandable', that would make good telly wouldn't it!
Me too on HMMcC and a Paris tunnel. Missed the weather forecast, so am in usual state of knowledge of the danger of frost tonight.
I missed some of the Lib Dem No ID cards, and hope they really mean what they say - I concur with FFred, but as much for the civil liberties aspects which most of the public seem happy to throw away, (Crikey; in the same position as Peter Hitchins on this one!) as to the practicalities given the current state of the IT industry to deliver far smaller projects than this.
I await New Scientist on the report, which strikes me as hair shirt in the extreme, on the no alcohol/red meat etc diet to "prevent" cancer. No discussion as to what Ham and Bacon (the nitrates?) would induce, as, say to alcohol (that latter is implicated in mouth/throat I believe).
And, in today's (Wall Street Journal), a note on our folly as Oil proceeds apace towards $100/bbl (and beyond?) and gold threatens $800 for an ounce (pardon me, 30 grams).
lalalalala
ed
Half Moon tonight. (At least it's better than no Moon at all.)
People respond to people who respond.
When the going gets tough, the tough go grab a beer.
Deep (12),
How about this for a cheap system for the NHS or ID card supercomputer? You can build one using secondhand PS3 units.
xx
ed
A man who turns green has eschewed protein.
ivegotanasbo (11)
Are you saying that red meat putrefies in the gut, but not white? More to the point, the implication that the digestive enzimes/process does not do enough to red meat to prevent this?
Also, makes the Adkin's diet (sp, sorry), a red hot cancer causer - is there any evidence of this?
I'm not saying your NZ data is wrong, but wonder about the reason. I'd want to learn more about this. Seems our "meat and two veg" culture was rather better than restaurants in Europe where the meat dish was that; just meat.
As I said before, I await New Scientist (which I do know is not entirely reliable).
----
Just heard on R4 News say that the Lib Dem leadership contenders would refuse to *carry* ID cards. But carrying them is not in the legistlation (at present)...it's having them in the first place that will become compulsary. Please 成人论坛 News, if they say they will not obtain one (which is what I heard in the PM interview), why mangle it by saying they will not carry it - it's an entirely different aspect.
A dispatches program reported that chickens sold by supermarkets contained 17% fat - roughly a pint of fat per bird - and that there was more fat than protein.
I note that the report recommended avoiding red meat. Since people moved to eating chicken rather than red meat in the 1970's, because chicken's then continaed more protein than fat, and much less fat - does this mean that chicken should now be avoided?
I only ask because it strikes me that obesity is more to do with the way in which supermarkets have distorted the production and marketing of food, than anything to do with the consumer.
I noticed alcohol was to be avoided also. Does this include red wine? Since it is not so long ago there was a flurry of reports saying that red wine was good for you and might help prevent cancer.
Ed (14),
I run a company from a 1999 computer - still going strong, on linux (which I'm sure you know as I shout about it enough - Slackware minus the KDE & Gnome in my case). There's plenty enough processing power, it's what that power is programmed to do that I worry about.
I have to agree with Nick Clegg on this issue of ID cards being banded around by the government.
I think that such a cynical piece of legislation is another step towards the realisation of a security state.
As some who has recently had to apply a replacement Passport and driving license, I would have to ask; just how much 鈥榠ntelligence鈥 does the government want have on its citizens?
a new FTP capability at the same time as continuing 'our service'. See also namelink to see if that works as well.
Ta for y'all's patience! (also testing that!)
xxx
ed
Re the report concerning the contributions of weight, alchohol, and diet to the development of cancer.
I find it quite remarkable that no one on PM or Today was able to ask for the effects of these factors to be quantified. Being generous, I assume that the results of the report are statistically significant (although this has to be open to question). However, even if they are, surely the size of the increased risk is significant. For example, if being 2 stone overweight leads to a one percent increase in the risk of developing cancer of the earlobe, then most people would not be too perturbed by this finding. However, the absence of this type of quantative information fuels the suspision that the health police are at it again. They should not be given such an easy ride by the quality media.
Ed - seems to work just fine. For people who are obsessed with SIVs.
Sid
I seem to remember someone in authority saying not so long ago that 'only' about ten per cent of the citizens with information held on the police computer had data held there that was incorrect.
I gotta say it, if that's going to be what the government and authorities can manage in conjunction with computers, if they do bring in compulsory ID cards there are going to be a *lot* of angry people being charged a lot of money for the machine to get their details wrong.
Who is going to pay for the replacement cards for the however many million of us need a new one because we've been given the wrong name or address or date of birth or whatever else? How do we get the data changed when it has been confirmed that it is wrong? How do we find out that the card doesn't match the computer's data?
It's probably better to get one of the fake ones; they are likely to be both cheaper and more accurate, since they will say what the owner wants them to say rather than what someone typing in a single-entry bit of data feels like putting...
Re: Izzy T'Me :-
and the HMMcC story.
Izzy is quite right - and it also annoyed me.
Heather Mills quote was that she has had 'worse press than a paedophile or a murderer'
Carolyn or Eloise should have picked it up.
I hope - and expect - that a little apology is mentioned on behalf of the professors error.
I wished that PM - or Elouise had actually got Heather MMc on the programme along with one of the editors from a tabloid to argue some of the allegations. After watching the GMTV interview on their website, Heather cleary has all the cuttings on hand.
The tablids should have to account for some of the allegations.
The below text is taken from the City University of London's website about Professor Greenslade:-
---------------------------------------
Prof. Roy Greenslade is one of Britain's foremost media teachers. He is a leading commentator and columnist on the media, and is currently writing for the Daily Telegraph. As a journalist he rose to the highest levels of management in a career taking in The Sun, the London Sunday Times, and culminating in the editorship of the Daily Mirror.
--------------------------------------
Jonnie says: I think that just about sums it up!
If there were truth in the fact that red meat, especially processed meat, causes Cancer, it would be banned.
Sid (21),
Not obsessed with SIVs, but perhaps with the worship of !
;-)
xx
ed
Sid (4), I'd rather the Lib Dems displayed loyalty to some sort of ideology and let us know what they are generally about. Just trying to be "distinctive" isn't really helpful, after all, dying ones hair bright purple would be distinctive. They really do remind me of adolescents, stomping around trying to be "different" but having no real idea about who they are.
I feel a bit sorry for Heather Mills McCartney actually. Fancy having the audacity to marry a saint, er, Beatle and then split with him when it didn't work out! Her call not to buy tabloids is a little annoying, having made her early "career" from modelling in those very publications, and she's a bit barking and self-obsessed, but she doesn't deserve death-threats and makes some valid points about the media.
Aperitif (26)
Our ideology, of course, is liberalism. You're quite right to say that distinctiveness by itself should not be our aim. But genuine liberalism is not only a good ideology, it is also quite distinct from the philosophies of the other two parties.
I'd say we have a clear idea about who we are. It is rather difficult to get it across when the popular press is only interested in how old Ming is.
I'm about to write an article for the local paper again - I may tackle 'What Is Liberalism?' ...
Sid
The Heather Mills McC thing has highlighted to me the different perspectives you can get from TV vs Radio.
I heard HMMcC last night on PM, and felt at least some sympathy for the sentiment of what she was saying re: The Press. But this morning I saw a re-run of the interview on TV and I am now firmly of the opinion that it was very much a performance from HMMcC and she is in serious danger of losing her marbles completely.
The piece about deaf/blind children showed the scant regard given by local authorities to their responsibilities - did I hear that the LGA's spokesman was "too busy in a meeting"??!!!!
The PM quite rightly had the view that no more needed to be said.......
I meant the PM team, obviously. I'm sure that's what oi tuipedd.....
Angela,
Either I missed it, or somebody here didn't like my remark about Heather Mills McCartney not having a leg to stand on. It wasn't 502d.
Sorry it's taken a while to join in on the blog, the team has been tucking into a particularly large and delicious plate of bacon sandwiches - at least 500lb of meat each, which is 1.1 lb by the way - about the size of four quarter pounder burgers I guess.. Carolyn really was trying to clarify this last night but didn't get a clear answer from Mr Lamb.
(we were very happy to have Mr Lamb from the Meat and Livestock Commission and Mr Avery from the RSPB on the prog last night. The MLC's press officer was also called Mr Bullock..)
We did invite Heather Mills McCartney onto PM last night but she turned us down, judging by the reaction on the blog this was probably for the best. Neither Carolyn nor I noticed Roy Greenslade's slip about whether she had been treated like a paedophile or worse than a paedophile, but listening back I don't think he distorted her overall meaning that she has been treated badly.. Eloise
Re; David (30) - Alas it's comments like yours that have upset her. A shame you didn't manage to come up with something a little more clever than the tabloids.
FWIW here is a reminder of what we should and shouldn't be posting - which may explain why your initial comment didn't appear:
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U the T - I thought the very same re HMMcC, after seeing a clip on later TV news. I too had been quite startled/moved by the radio clip but then....
All grist to the mill of being able to access as many different forms of news as is possible, then still having the energy to make up one's own mind!
Re: Elouise (31)
Unfortunately Roy Greenslade was not the ideal contributor to have put on. It would have been better to have had someone who was not so connected with the tabloids.
It would have also been better if Roy had actually listened to the GMTV broadcast (available on their website) properly - before appearing on PM.
As regards to the "Reaction on the blog" -
Let's not forget Roger Sawyer's comment on Tuesdays Glass box!
------ ------ ------ ------ ------
I am afraid we are not going to base editorial decisions on what people say on this blog. Three-and-a-half million people listen to PM, how many comment on the Blog? There is no evidence that the Blog is representative of all our listeners and to adapt our agenda because of a vocal and articulate micro minority would be a small tail wagging a big dog.
-------- ----- ------- ------- -----
It seems that Editors can now choose when the blog is a reflection of what the public think and when it can be dismissed?
I don't know much - but I do know that 500lb is 227kg. Mind you, if is your average bacon, it probably did shrink to 1.1lb after cooking..
Eloise (31)
> at least 500lb of meat each, which is 1.1 lb by the way
You probably mean 500g of meat, which would be about 16 large rashers of bacon (uncooked weight) - which is 1.1lb - and that will be one huge bacon butty. Let alone one with 500lb of meat in!
On the lighter side Elouise. How is the Maths?
I'm confused now?
500lb = 1.1lb
Mmmm :-)
James (24)
Er, no. Tobacco?
Jonnie - well spotted, I'd better clean my glasses, I didn't even notice that!
Sid & Appy,
Perhaps we should repair to the Furrowed Brow, where you could discuss how your parties of choice might respond to the sentiments ?
I must admit I see little evidence (in practice) of any true commitment to 'social justice' in either of the two 'main' parties, and the evidence from the 'third' party's collaboration in Scotland is far from convincing.
Perhaps the Inoxydable Feline could join us, as I sense he has some thoughts on these matters.
What's your pleasure? The fiorst round's on me - virtually!
Slainte
ed
Old mail has arrived.
(old male did so long ago!)
;-)
Jonnie (34) - it's what we teachers call 'new maths'.
Sid
Let us assume that the eating spree began at the start of the Glass Box meeting (6pm) and ended just before Eloise鈥檚 posting at 10:45am 鈥 a total of sixteen and three quarter hours. Let us also assume that we are talking about Carolyn, who is famous for not sleeping. The consumption of 500lbs of meat in that time equates to slightly less than 30lbs of meat per hour. That is half a pound of meat, or in Eloise鈥檚 terms two quarter pounders, every minute. I agree that this represents a large plate of sandwiches but I do not believe that it is still referred to as 鈥渄elicious鈥 at the end of that time. Still at least it does explain why you took some time to join in with the blog.
H.
Ed (40):
No thanks, I'm too tired for politics today, I spent most of the dark hours last night feeling rotten.
Humph's mathematical exposition at (42) has my head spinning to match my stomach...
Coincidentally, I had some bacon last night. :o(
I had a bacon sandwich for lunch yesterday. And while listening to PM I was preparing a roast lamb dinner for friends who were coming to visit. With mounting horror as I heard the report on what we should be eating to stay healthy.
"OH NO - WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!"
Hang on, we're all going to die anyway.
Might as well eat the lamb then.
ah, yes maths not my strong point. i meant 500g of course, which is only 1.1lb i think... anyway we've moved onto boiled sweets now as Carolyn's fast has meant there's no chocolate on the desk.
ps of course I don't agree with Roger, I think he was feeling a bit peaky yesterday
Wel David (30)
I see you are stumped for words now?
......... runs, escaping towards the beach ....
Jonnie,
Good bye. I'll go back to my less restrictive forum.
Jonie,
I just tuned in from my liberal-minded forum. Running to the beach won't get you away from me. That photo was sent by me.
鈥÷β琹> David,
All is forgiven!
Btw Roger - of course the contributors to the blog aren't representative of all the PM listeners. We're just representative of the listeners who have access to a keyboard. If you persist in letting us unqualified loons loose, naturally we're going to try to take over the asylum.
Are you keeping the Mr Grumpy seat warm until Eddie gets back?
(runs away & hides behind large cat).
Annasee - did you notice that the unqualified loon and Mr Grumpy are both away on holiday at the same time?
So the Lib-Dems have a potential leader who freely admits that he would break the law were an act requiring us to carry Identification Cards to be passed by parliament.
Well that rules them out as far as I am concerned. Whilst there are several laws I do not like, I accept the will of parliament togovern and that none of us can choose which laws we keep and which we break.
What a stupid man. JAH
Jonnie,
And stop stealing my smilies.
David, Jonnie, have I missed something? What was wrong with suggesting someone didn't have a leg to stand on? I thought her arguments sounded ok to me, but that was only an opinion.