One Wales? Pah!
To a Bevan Foundation Question and Answer session last night with Leanne Wood, David Melding, Huw Lewis and Peter Black - or as one of them might put it, a debate in the palace of politics that's of interest only to anoraks.
Guess which one?
You got it.
Huw Lewis was on fine and fighting form. Perhaps he'd just been casting an eye over his wife's for this morning's Western Mail. Perhaps it was a feeling that Friday's battle is lost. Perhaps it was seeing all those cream cakes go to waste. Whatever galvanised him, he was in the mood to lob a few stones at the palace windows, especially the one just behind Leanne Wood's head.
On the promise of a review of the Barnett formula (cf One Wales document, p.6): 'We ought to question the motivation and the politics of those calling for a review of Barnett'.
On the past few weeks: 'In coalition talks it's only the party leaders that really matter'.
And as for 'One Wales', don't get him started. As Leanne Wood spoke optimistically about what it could deliver, Huw Lewis slipped a note to Peter Black. He half grimaced, half chuckled before folding the paper firmly over.
Huw's final thoughts drew a cheer that seemed to come from the direction of Ann Jones and Karen Sinclair. It went something like this:
'It's very easy to persuade yourself that this is a new era, just because a voting system is different, just because parties have to discuss coalitions. But the essentials are the same. Go back to your Marx. It's about 'who gets what and says who'. There's no escaping that politics is about a discourse of left and right. Ordering where politicans sit is fascinating but reordering people's lives is what it's about.'
Ann Jones left announcing she'll be wearing black on Friday.
More please Bevan Foundation.
I'm Betsan Powys, 成人论坛 Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on .
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The odd thing Betsan is that Huw the class warrior is regarded in Welsh Labour as being well to the right of David Melding. Do you think when he was jotting away last night he was penning his wife's article?
One thing you are on the money with, is that he and his four supporters will lose Friday's vote in all catergories. We are now seeing the desperate death throws of the Labour Brit Nats (MPs and AMs) as they try to intimidate both Labour and Plaid delegates. Too late, they are mandated.....
Huey (News) Lewis ~ "Go back to your Marx. It's about who get what and says who"...
Well, I've never seen the Grundrisse reduced to that (brilliant) soundbite! A (new) Labour AM Kapital reading group in the Bay forthcoming? Yes, Hue is "wasted"...as is very often said.
Hue now dissin' mere "Administrative Devolution"? OR are TWO AM salaries etc. just not cutting it in the hood?
SHAME!
Is it just me who is getting increasingly tired of this backward approach Labour have to everything. Firstly their MP's are having a much larger say in a devolved institution than they should do - trying to tweak or get the whole thing scrapped even. Secondly it does feel as if Welsh Labour is trying to portray itself as having a God-given right to govern Wales and any compromise, any deal or discussion is wrong and out of the question. Move on for Wales' sake!
Herbert Davies' comments would be funny were they not so pathetic. Leaving aside the offensive misogyny of the first paragraph, he rejoices at the fact that a vote on the coalition will be won because 'delegates are mandated'. Call that democracy? What a joke. The 'utterly democratic' process that Rhodri promised is rotten at its core - the Labour leadership twisting arms to get votes, Union block votes with no consultation, and a spin operation that would shame Number 10. And all this for what? Keep non-entities (and pals of Rhodri鈥檚) like Jane Hutt in a job, and allow him to retire still King of the Castle. Shameful 鈥 in every respect.
There is only one place the pro Rhodri Labour Am's can go along Brown's Welsh Pontius and that is closer to Plaid.
Me thinks IWJ may have played a blinder here or is it just chance or perhaps Mr Price is laughing out loud - clever bloke.
Herbert Davies is right in saying that the four Labour AMs will not receive the support of the majority. The writing is on the wall for them, along with the grouping of reactionary Welsh MPs in Westminster, including Lord Kinnock, with their politics of yesterday and their unwillingness to accept change. They are making a last ditch attempt to halt the course of history, to hold back the progress towards greater democracy and the path of devolution, the adoption of consensus politics, and the prospect of a Welsh Parliament in the offing.
As I posted in Betsan's last blog :
"Whereas Plaid's coalition with Welsh Labour is straightforward with goodwill expressed on both sides there are forces which are attempting to undermine these arrangements, from reactionary Welsh Labour MPs and from within the British government led by Gordon Brown."
The full text of which can be read on my blog site :
In all likelihood Lewis and his colleagues will lose on Friday, and in all seriousness his stance on the Labour-Plaid coalition is hardly surprising.
I thought he did make some valid points at the talk however, namely that reorganising how politicians sit and getting excited about a 'new era' of politics, coalitions etc won't make a jot of difference to most people.
It'll keep the chattering classes busy no doubt, but it won't be to the benefit of ordinary working- and lower-middle class people; only practical, progressive policy proposals that are translated into action on the ground will do that.
I hope Herbert Davies is right otherwise the whole government of Wales will be thrown into chaos, what are the 4 Labour AM's proposing instead of One Wales? Rhodri has already said that a minority Labour administration is unsustainable so the only thing left is a Rainbow Coalition. I would have expected Ann Jones and Karen Sinclair to toe the party line and keep their heads down after only just winning their seats!!
Huw Lewis has a brass neck, invoking the name of Marx when he (Lewis, that is!) is the absolute embodiment of the 'old Labour hostility towards Plaid, yoked together with a New Labour suspicion of the independent course pursued by Rhodri and his allies' as described by the Welsh Labour Grassroots document which appeared in Tuesdays 'Western Mail'.
They've lost the argument, they're going to lose the vote, and they are lashing out in all directions.
Rhodri Morgan has a cheek stating that he is being ultra democratic. If that is the case then why refuse to hold a joint meeting of Labour AM and MP's ? Try putting this proposal to a one member one vote of party members in Wales and see how much support it has. All he is concerned about is holding onto the reins of power for the next two years. The Labour Party would not be in this position if he had had a more realistic stance on reconfiguration. One that reflected the viewpoint of the electors he was trying to win over. His health policy was idiotic, politically unrealistic and didnot even make much sense in health planning terms. It has produced the worse election results for Labour in Wales in 100 years and frankly his leadership is to blame. Can a one legged duck swimming in circles lead a party across the winning line in first place - obviously not. He should resign.
Can I just add for the benefit of one or two colleagues who seem to have limited knowledge of Labour Party process, that the constituencies mandate delegates by a democratic vote.
The MPs are trying to bully the delegates into failing to deliver that democratic mandate. It won't work.
See you there Friday for the historic event when Wales finally throws off its 'cap doffing' subservience to the forces of conservatism in London.
Herbert
You seem very well informed about Labour Party process - I, too, am a Labour Party member, active across Wales. I don't remember meeting you at any Party events. I'd like the chance to set you straight on a few issues! Perhaps you could get in touch, maybe via a central point of contact - the First Minister's office, possibly? I know a few people there, who incidentaly hold views very similar you yours! If not, maybe via the internet - easy to track people down online!
Heartening comments indeed.
Let it continue.
The laughable thing is he say's its all about re-ordering peoples lives. When did the elections take place? Has anyone sitting in this useless welsh assembly achieved anything? Short answer...no. If performance related pay was brought in for AMs the only time we'd see them would be selling their Big Issues.
Take that back....well done Jane for consigning Shambo to the burger bar.
Oh dear, the Labour Party are caught with their equality....females oh dear!.. indeed the Labour movement still prefers their female dunses...
Really, I hope very much indeed that we have a sensible government soon.
Why not? I adore very much indeed the Welsh Labour Party here in Wales.
It's a joke the way the South Walians have been misled and abused by the MPs in Westminster.
Education goes a long way!....
The real point about 'reordering people's lives' is that Labour have had 10 years to sort out poverty, inequality and ill health in Wales (an dint he UK). They haven;t done it. It's got worse. Even Huw admits that the Assembly doesn;t have the tools, as it stands, to actually do anythign about these things, because it has no power.
Marx is also good on the difference between control and power: control is when you keep your hands on the apparatus (and salaries) of govermnent; power is when you use them to change things, really, properly, deeply.
Huw and his brand of Labour stand for the former.
They may win, they may not, but what is sure is that they continuously let down the people who need them most, while at the same time voting for PFI, Trident, university fees, illegal war, and generally making Britain safe for Rupert Murdoch and George Bush.
That brand of Labour is, in essence, the Right, and their opposition to the All Wales agreement is motivated by sheer tribalist grasping.
The only aspect of Marxism which the likes of Huw Lewis, Kim Howells and Lord Kinnock retain is the belief in the one-party state. The Labour party, both old and New, cannot stand the idea of a pluralist system which is normal to democracy. The British system gives massive power to the governing party and they don't intend sharing it - except with very rich people who decide their economic policies of course.
Huw Lewis is naturally worried because he knows the opposition parties in the Assembly have better quality candidates than Labour and the deal with Plaid will show up his deficencies as a politician. He has grand plans to get to the top of labour.
Looks like the boot is now on the other foot! A few weeks ago Labour was accusing Plaid of giving power to the Tories by pursuing the "rainbow" coalition. Now with the prospect of a historic Labour Plaid government on the horizon, if Labour reject this deal it will be THEM who will be handing power to the Tories by giving Plaid no alternative other than resurrect the "rainbow" coalition. Just like the proverbial rabbit, Labour has been caught in the headlights and doesn't have a clue which way to go to save its skin.
What is happening on Friday then ?
I turn my back for a moment, and I've lost the plot already..
And what is on that bit of paper ?
What do you mean, 'You don't know.." - get Benji the Binman on the case, pronto..
Herbert Davies states that the constituencies mandate delegates by a democratic vote. would he like to comment on how many people are likely to vote on that mandate? I suspect that it will only be those that attend the monthly constituency meeting which is usually a very small percentage of the party membership. What are these people in favour of a coalition with plaid afraid of? Could it be that the rank and file Labour Party and affiliated trade union membership might vote against? as regards anna james comments and don't make me laugh. is there one single politician in Cardiff Bay (however incompetent that they might be and boy do we have some incompetents in all parties representing us)who does harbour a dream to be first Minister? this has little to do with the people of Wales and their needs and everything to do with the mainly second rate politicians of the principality retaining and extending their power, position and very well paid jobs.
Congrats, Bethan. You've learned from Blamerbell how to increase the comments section on your blog, use those most divisive of words "Huw Lewis"! What his opponents can't stomach is the fact that he talks a lot of sense, including uncomfortable truths for his own party, in a very compelling and intelligent way - as anyone who was actually at Tuesday's event will testify. Christ knows that I didn't agree with all of it, but that isn't the point. Is it?
The best attempts of people like Herbert Davies and "his" fellow colleagues founder on the rocks of their own complete political ignorance. They say he is too New Labour and too Old Labour at the same time - perhaps he is just too Labour for those people who have ended up in the party for motives other than political belief?
Some of these Labour people opposed to the coalition seem a little hysterical. I expected more of Ann Jones, but some of the others are not the sharpest knives in the cutlery drawer are they? People like Karen Sinclair and Irene James wouldn't be missed if they disappeared overnight. At least Huw Lewis and Lynne Neagle will be able to console each other in the marital home as they are so fearful of jumping into bed with Plaid.
Either way , whatever happens this weekend the British Labour party has moved away from The Welsh Labour party to such a great extent, can it be repaired ?
Interesting thread but I can't believe that the 成人论坛 has allowed the user name at post 14. Surely there must be some sort of filter. If I have got it wrong and that really is a proper name, please Stew consider investiagting a deed poll change.
What I would say is that Kim Howells in particular but many others like him are very able, talented people and leaders in waiting . Just exactly what is it in their mindset that is so defeatist and so dismissive of the abilities of themselves, their constituents, and their countrymen to make a success of running their own affairs?
It really angers me that where there was real concensus years ago to ban smoking in Wales nothing was done until Westminster legislated. How many unneccessary deaths resulted? Now we are nowhere better having to go cap in hand for someone else to decide if we are mature enough to decide our own destinies in specific narrow fields. Unbelievable! Westminster/England/Bulldog Brown see us as not grown up , it's just a shame that view is echoed by Howells, Murphy et al.
I listened to the comments of Rhodri Morgan this morning in answer to phone-in questions on Radio Wales, and found him to be realistic and convincing. With goodwill all round we will see this coalition work for the good of the people of Wales, and not specifically for the good of the Labour Party. Rhodri Morgan, as well as Ieuan Wyn Jones have grasped the notion of realpolitik.
re路al路po路li路tik (r膩-盲l'p艒'l沫-t膿k') pronunciation
n.
A usually expansionist national policy having as its sole principle advancement of the national interest.
Posted by alanindyfed
These Labour Neanderthals are a disgrace to the nation. The likes of Kinnock, Howells and Murphy who believe Welsh identity should be limited to the rugby field.
This Labour Party has held our nation back for a century or more: opposed to indigenous enterpreneurs - 'class traitors' - and virulently opposed to Welsh identity expressed in any way of which they didn't approve or couldn't control.
One good thing to come out of all this might be a massive split in Labour, and the demise of the anti-Welsh element that has stained the party for a century.
Oh, happy day!
A patriot is someone who loves their Country; a Nationalist is someone who hates everyone else's.
Plaid are kidding everyone by claiming to be socialist - just ask Adam Price (see his blog)
There have been two significant stories about Welsh Labour in the press this week. First, the internal report that denounced the poor quality of our candidates at the last election. And second, the gang of four-and-a-half who have come out and opposed the coalition with Plaid.
I'm sure I'm not the only member of Welsh Labour to spot the overlap between those stories.
Putting this as diplomatically as I possibly can, Ann Jones, Lynne Neagle, Karen Sinclair and Irene James have contributed almost nothing to our national politics over the past eight years. Each and every one of them looks hopelessly out of their depth in Cardiff Bay. I am a lifelong, and tribal, Labour supporter, and I appreciate that some of them have their hearts in the right place. But they are simply not good enough. They should be CLP secretaries, not Assembly candidates in safe seats.
Huw Lewis has something more about him, though I cannot agree with his judgement, or his presentational style.
But it has been awful to watch senior Welsh Labour figures like Kim Howells claim that Plaid are incompetent. Look at our own backbenches, for goodness' sake. I'm afraid that Plaid's AMs are very much more competent than ours. If we are to win the argument against them, and I believe we can and should, then the minimum requirement is that we get more talent onto the Labour benches in the Senedd.
I invite the gang of four-and-a-half to do the honourable thing.
WARNING!!! PLAID SPIN ALERT.
Realpolitik: n.From the German: Practical politics.
Politics based on practical rather than idealogical considerations.
Sources: Oxford Concise Dictionary and Webster's.
Britannica:
"Politics based on practical objectives rather than on ideals.
The word does not mean 鈥渞eal鈥 in the English sense but rather connotes 鈥渢hings鈥濃攈ence a politics of adaptation to things as they are. Realpolitik thus suggests a pragmatic, no-nonsense view and a disregard for ethical considerations. In diplomacy it is often associated with relentless, though realistic, pursuit of the national interest."
Please note: ....a disregard for ethical considerations.
Somewhat more expansive than:
"A usually expansionist national policy having as its sole principle advancement of the national interest."
Posted by alanindyfed
Your picky pal.
johnny.
WARNING!!! PLAID SPIN ALERT.
Realpolitik: n.From the German: Practical politics.
Politics based on practical rather than idealogical considerations.
Sources: Oxford Concise Dictionary and Webster's.
Britannica:
"Politics based on practical objectives rather than on ideals.
The word does not mean 鈥渞eal鈥 in the English sense but rather connotes 鈥渢hings鈥濃攈ence a politics of adaptation to things as they are. Realpolitik thus suggests a pragmatic, no-nonsense view and a disregard for ethical considerations. In diplomacy it is often associated with relentless, though realistic, pursuit of the national interest."
Please note: ....a disregard for ethical considerations.
Somewhat more expansive than:
"A usually expansionist national policy having as its sole principle advancement of the national interest."
Posted by alanindyfed
Your picky pal.
johnny.
Sorry Robbie my mum has warned me about meeting strange men off the internet.........See you Friday
Would your Mum mind if you came and said hello to me Herbert? It would be good to meet you. See you today perhaps?
And sorry Dave but I'm not sure what people look like has to do with this debate. Not that I like refusing to approve comments from someone called 'Big Dave ...'
Cometh the day and cometh the 48 hours. Yes we do it big in Wales. Forget Jack Bauer and his paltry 24 hours here in Wales Agent Morgan has just 48 hours to save his (love) child from the clutches of the evil Mr K and his henchmen.
So what's going to happen?
Will Don Tylwythteg scupper Agent Morgans' plans?
Will the Welsh Blair's Babes equivalent, Rhodri's Ravers have an impact?
Will Mr K be converted on the road to Damascus (or even Dinorwic) and see Wales as the new Europe with new opportunities. Kerrching!! Well Allright!!
and Wil Cwac Cwac ever be heard, or even understood.
Find out in this week's double episode of Taff Love.
Tylwyth Teg = Welsh for fairies (as in away with the)
I'm blogging again
Recent comments I've heard from politicians on the media:
Ieuan Wyn Jones "What is best for Wales"
Paul Murphy "What is best for the Labour Party"
Doesn't this say it all?
Mike Evans - stop being so silly; this is the approach which gives supporters of Scunthorpe United such problems.
I have never been an admirer of Huw Lewis in fact far from it. but I must congratulate him on his stand over this ignominious arrangement with Plaid Cymru. as someone who has been a Labour Party member and supporter for several decades I really don't understand how Rhodri Morgan can defend the consultation procedures adopted. A constituency mandate is insufficient there should have been a postal ballot of every party member. I have certainly not been consulted nor have I been informed of any special constituency meeting being called to discuss this. It may be that such a meeting has been held but I have not been informed of it. if Rhodri wins this on the basis of the union block vote or even on the basis of a small number of constituencies it will lack credibility and so will he.
Miss Betsan!! Miss! Miss! Stewart P and Bedd Gelert are using naughty words behind your back miss!
Seriously though. It seems to me that the Labour party, or at least some elements of it, are having serious difficulties in grasping the new order. I heard someone on Radio Wales yesterday morning ( I think it was Don Touhig)pronounce that the Welsh electorate had voted for a Labour majority Government. It obviously hasn't, in any sense other than in the old fashioned first past the post sense. So either a failure to adapt or a slip of the tongue/wishful thinking there?
Personally I can't see what the problem is. Maybe it's a generational thing or maybe it varies from area to area but here in east Carmarthenshire I see no problem in moving between Plaid and Labour (and obviously election results indicate I am not alone). I see both as traditional vehicles for old fashioned sermon on the mount Welsh radicalism, equality, society values etc. They only, in my mind, differ in their outlook on speed of devolution.
My feeling is that increasingly the electorate (or a majority of the electorate) also have similar fluidity of allegiance which is fostered by real similarities on policy and outlook amongst all parties not just Labour and Plaid.
I don't subscribe to Marx and The International and the vast majority socialists (little s) in this neck of the woods don't either. For us Plaid and Labour are interchangable. We voted for one county councillor from each , best of both worlds, best people for the job, checks and balances etc. Let's hope for more of the same in the Bay.
To me it just looks like some dinosaur MPs clinging on to "higher prestige" jobs in the smoke and wanting to keep that power.
This is a letter I sent to the Daily Post(Unpublished)
The Welsh Labour party is in a complete shambles (Party Infighting over coalition, Post, 5th July). Despite the Labour Assembly group and their National Executive voting in favour of the red/green coalition, a number of leading members of the party including most MP's are agitating against the coalition, why?, because of self interest. We then have two Labour AM's from North Wales, Ann Jones and Karen Sinclair, turning bandit on Rhodri Morgan and advocating rejection of the coalition. As Rhodri Morgan has said a minority Labour administration is unsustainable and the only other option is the Rainbow coalition.
I find it hard to accept that senior member of the Welsh Labour party prefer to see their party in opposition rather than join Plaid Cymru in a coalition.
If Labour members vote against the coalition they will have done the people of Wales a grave disservice and show that they are more interested in protecting their party and their own self interest rather than provide the people of Wales with a stable government.
I wonder if the people of Wales will remember this come the next general election?
Before Mike Evans gets carried away with his admiration for Kim Howells - "What I would say is that Kim Howells in particular but many others like him are very able, talented people and leaders in waiting." - I suggest he reads the latest issue of Private Eye in which Howells is taken apart for his pathetic defence - even denial - of extraordinary rendition.
As a mate of mine pointed out, here is an ex-commie who may have made fraternal visits to Fidel's Wonderland now quite happy to send manacled prisoners to a part of Cuba controlled by Uncle Sam. Or, then again, maybe not, perhaps it's not really happening. No one listening to Howells in the House was quite sure what he was trying to say.
But all agreed he made a real fool of himself. Which so often happens when you try to defend the indefensible or deny the undeniable.
Howells' sally into the Labour-Plaid coalition debate may have been no more than an attempt to forget his recent humiliation. Instead, he showed himself up, yet again, for the mean-spirited and self-centred little shite he always has been.
How does an ex-communist defend US policy at Guantanamo? Can a man who has made such a massive ideological leap be trusted on anything?
It is strange but true that the leaders of Plaid always emphasise what is best for Wales and the Welsh people, whereas Labour's yesterday men and women speak only of what is best for the Labour Party (I assume they mean the "British" version (?)
thats because in plaid they think they are the real people of wales - the gwerin - and therefore they are also speaking for themselves. you too can be one of them you just have to see things their way !
What a pity Betsan, I saw alot of you on Friday but hadn't seen your comment. Would have been very happy to have given you an award winning interview....
To be honest you looked a bit busy trying to find out just how much blood was flowing inside the CIA. Mostly 'Brit Nat' I think, with the rachet taking another twist towards the progessive Welsh Left.
No doubt we will have another opportunity for a bit of political 'speed dating' soon....