On race and religion
Here is the answer to the Democrats' Michigan and Florida difficulties: turn to ! I am serious: these people conduct fair elections for organisations in the UK and no-one (I think) has ever questioned their impartiality or efficiency.
On the Obama pastor controversy, thanks to all those who have contributed: apologies again for the technical issues. Steve C makes an interesting point about timing (suggesting that if this had been happening early in the primaries, he would be toast) - I wonder whether the actual timing though is not rather wonderful for him, way ahead of the general election and coming just before a primary he is going to lose anyway?
Edward S claims: "It is an illusion to suggest that conflicting interests can generally be transcended. One ends up trying to be all things for all people. It's a recipe for indecisiveness - the risk: 'a mind so open that one's brain falls out'."
Well, let's see what happens now with Obama: if anyone can do it he can. Liz, meanwhile, makes a point that I am sure others will have sympathy with: I heard someone suggest on the airwaves the other day that if the Rev Wright's comments had been made calmly by an academic (white, perhaps) they would have been considered a reasonable contribution to open debate. The fact that he is shouting in the clips, and swaying about, does not do him any favours. Luc Zagbo wants the candidate to be allowed to move on: well, that might well happen if he gets through this period. But I do not think that questioning him is the same as seeking white dominance, as you put it.
Ghazamfar Khan raises the issue of bigotry more generally. Well, we live in a highly religious age, so I see no way round it - it seems to be to be (sadly) more than an invention of the mainstream media. As Harriet makes clear, many individuals in many churches are guilty of bigotry but we tend to accept that they do not speak for the whole church.
David Ginsburg asks about religion and the answer is yes, it matters; as someone once said: "You don't have to be a saint to run for president but you have to be a pilgrim." To venture into dangerous waters, I must say I simply do not understand, though, why Obama ever had need of a "spiritual advisor" or whatever he called Mr Wright. You can address ethics and morality without turning to the church: I suggest any of the works of the wonderful .
Alasdair Bovaird raises an interesting issue about how to cover moments like this in the race: I must say, if he had made this speech without needing to, as it were, I would agree with you - but given the discussion among his team and the tactical effort they were making to see off a potential calamity, I think it is reasonable to frame it in those terms. Having said that, I wish I had added a line about the risk he was taking and the unusual richness and complexity of the actual speech.
Jon asks about Rush Limbaugh. He matters, but not as much as he thinks, I would venture to suggest. With no candidate he can support, this might be a post-Rush election.
Richard Berry is right; this blog is impartial in the sense that I have no preference for any candidate or any policy. But impartiality in the modern world means more, I think, than simply presenting "information" with no commentary, or analysis, or humour. This medium is also more sophisticated than radio and TV and, if you are reading this, you are seeking it out and probably reading it alongside all manner of alternative views: you do not expect the 成人论坛 to be biased, and we should not be, but nor do you want us to be dull... And Martin - I predicted a McCain victory months ago, long before you!
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'This blog is impartial'. Better look the word up in the dictionary Justin. (While you are there look up 'tendentious' and 'liberal'.)
Listening to Obama's speech, I was intrigued by the following sentiment: "It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams." Is that not a little naieve in such a capitalist society? Given that socio-economic status is tied so closely to race, it's just not logical to say that whites won't suffer from equality. Affirmative action, for example, has negative consequences for white Americans?
I loved the speech for the most part, but I still thought he flashed his idealism a little too much.
You can get good odds if you want to bet on McCain:
He's currently 3 to 2 against.
Good luck!
;-)
ed
But what are the odds on a 502 error? ten to one on.
I wonder how the report below squares with the messages coming from George Bush ?
And I notice that John McCain has been in town. Again, is he reading the same newspapers that we are ??
Justin,
On something other than race and religion.
From the 成人论坛 News website item dated Wed 19 March 2008, 22.49h GMT (Clinton first lady diary released): "[...] "The schedules do help illustrate Hillary Clinton's extensive and exhaustive work as a public servant and her role as an influential advocate at home and around the world on behalf of our country." [...]"
She is seemingly "demanding" political kudos for herself (which is not the same as being accoladed by third parties) for her actions for which she was not elected and for which she was not subject to political accountability.
What are your thoughts on this point?
justin, perhaps now it matters whether one who is seaking the presidency is religious or not, but I think it most definitely shouldn't!!! It doesn't in any other western country, and nor should it here as well!! And one can only hope, that somewhere down the line, it won't!!!!
As far as the line '"You don't have to be a saint to run for president but you have to be a pilgrom." goes, I would like to ask, Justin, do you know who said it? I think it is, and should be true if one should be a pilgrom in the sense that they always strive for good in this country and the world, but pilgrom as far as church going? Wow!!! The United States of America is really screwed up after all isn't it?!!I guess there is a glass cealing with respect to religion and the presidency that no one thought of huh? One can be house or senate majority leader and an atheist (Reed), but president? Not on the conservitive Christian's watch!!!!
Sorry world!!!
Wow!! Carter should take notes from this whole "ERAS" thing!! How come we didn't think of that?!!!
I don't know whether to be sad, or think it great, that we are turning to the UK for help with our electoral process, but regardless, at least the Fla/Mis issue has been resolved now.
Seems as if the U. S. news media are trying to discredit both Democratic candidates while pretty much letting McCain off the hook. This is lots like their torpedoing of Howard Dean in the 2004 primary elections so that a weaker Democratic candidate would be nominated to run against George Bush, except that in 2008 both Demo candidates are strong contenders. This discrediting is not surprising given the concentration of much news/TV media ownership in the hands of a few Republican-oriented tycoons.
Once, black Americans could not attend white colleges. That changed in the 1960's when we deregulated schools and America is better for it. Now, it's time to deregulate our neighborhoods. Black children in poor neighborhoods can't get the same education as white children in middle or upper class neighborhoods. We need subsidized housing in middle class and upper class neighborhoods to allow blacks to live there and have their children attend better schools. America will be better for it. Obama, as president may be the only one who can make it happen.
this blog is very liberal. Why should any american give up the power of voting to another country. Independce was declared in 1776 mr.webb.
We all have opinions, and we all have the right to listen and judge is those opinions are like are unlike our own. I respect and agree with B. Obama, I have friends (Black and Hispanic) that spout racial injustice and believe the fabric of American society his ingrain in the fact that Anglo's either don't want to believe this reality exists or accept it exists and perpetuate racial inequalities due to their upbringing and/or social norms. For me, as a African American, I have had many loud arguements with friends re: racial oppression. I don't agree with their veiwpoints but as friends they have the right to speak their mind just as I do. We agree, to disagree. Knowing this, they are still my friends. Most important, Sen Obama is NOT responsible for the words that come out of someone else's mouth, unless they are on his payroll and a representive for his office and/or campaign
I hope our friends abroad are intelligent enough to realize that only a small fringe part of our enormous population have these hateful racist tendencies and that this coverage is only fueled by the race baiters such as Rev. Wright, Al Sharpton and that ilk. America is hurting right now, but not over this. The dollar is weak, the middle class is struggling and we are at war. Need I say more?
Ian McEwan? That explains a lot! Anyway, I would like to address the McCain winning point. I just don't see how it can happen. Remember, the general election campaign hasn't properly started and when it does he will face a daily barrage from the democratic nominee over the state of the economy. And if people feel impoverished by the Bush era and McCain can't find a way to distance himself from it (the signs so far on that score aren't good) then his poll ratings will plummet for sure. Even if in a worse-case scenario the democrats can't choose until August, that's still a whole two months of attack he will have to bear and what defence will he have?
In your comments on comments, Mr Webb, you are now in danger of showing your own ideology in both politics and religion: 'If anyone can do it (reconcile) he (Obama) can' is a political statement; 'I suggest any of the WONDERFUL (my caps) works of Ian McEwan' (an avowed and cynical agnostic) is an anti-religion ideological statement. I shall have to be rather more suspicious of the famous 成人论坛 unbiased reporting from their North America Editor in future.
Now that 矛t`s 2008, is it not time to start dispensing with religion? We now have scientific facts proving the Earth to be 4700m years old and we have the hubble telescope viewing the Universe at distances of millions of light years (light speed =~186,000miles per second) Are we just going to ignore this information?
As a person dedicated to peace I find it quite alarming that the christian,jewish,islamic religions seem to be fueling worldwide conflict. It`s time to look in the mirror.We all need to live together and address the enemy common to all people = poverty and hunger.
Race always comes in when over 75% of your people support you not because they believe in what you say but because of the colour of your skin.In Africa tribalism is always the major talk at elections but l have noticed that Americans dont want to acknowledge that in the Democratic Party nomination the issue of RACE is paramount.l mean why all of sudden the blacks who until January were for Clinton are now in unprecnted numbers voting for Obama?
"Here is the answer to the Democrats' Michigan and Florida difficulties: turn to foreigners with no axes to grind! I am serious: these people conduct fair elections for organisations in the UK and no-one (I think) has ever questioned their impartiality or efficiency."
The day the People of the United States of America have to turn to foreigners to teach them about democracy will be the day hell freezes over. Despite talk of ancient Greece, it was the founding fathers of the United States who invented democratic government, certainly mondern democratic government and those who inherited it are the ones who perfected and continue to perfect it. It isn't perfect yet and there are occasional steps backwards but there is nowhere else to turn, this IS the one and only place on this earth where it exists in its purest form even with its scars and flaws. The fact that there is no other paradigm with which to compare it to is the reason why naive ignorant programs like "America, Age of Empire" are created. By comparison, other nations are largely frauds when it comes to democracy even though we in the US pay lip service to them out of politeness and expediency. But I don't have to. Britain is a prime example of what I'm talking about. With an upper House of Lords, an official registered priveleged aristocracy, an official monarchy as head of state, an official state church, ceding sovereignty to an outside superstate in a process the British population doesn't even get to vote on and neither may their rubber stamp parliament, no separation of power between legislative and executive branches of government, secret procedings for even mundane government business, who are you kidding? Don't lecture to us Mr. Webb. When foreigners start to tell us what is wrong with America, they won't like hearing in return what is infinitely worse about their own nations.
The autocratic EU superstate is Europe's idea of democracy. A 400 page incomprehenisble document is its idea of a constitution. The A380 is its idea of a passenger plane. What's next, the Queen Mary II with wings?
justine,
Please let us stop saying African-American to blacks out there. They are all one and be called American. Don't you think this is segregative for the blacks.
Why the South African do not call whites living there as Eureopean-African? I think its time we learn from them.Some terminology are easy to use but they carry weight on other races. I always hear this on VOA raio, why don't they just say blacks and whites instead.
When America speaks about diversity, what does she really mean? Is diversity based on skin color, ethnic group, religion, or is diversity premised on ideology and differing viewpoints. What we have witnessed over the past two weeks is what Justice Clarence Thomas referred to as a 鈥渉igh tech lynching鈥, in this case, of a minister, Jeremiah Wright. As a medic, Minister Wright served in the Korean and Vietnam wars --fighting for the principles of freedom and what democracy stands for. Like others who have served America and are not part of the dominant culture, it is clear that the liberties of freedom of speech and religion are only for those who uphold the hegemonic ideology of corporate America. Unfortunately, after serving admirably in two wars, Minister Wright has found that he has not earned the right to share his opinion and in doing so, prepare and fortify his flock for the challenges of progressing in America. I watched the press interviews with his parishioners. He should be proud of his politically aware members who responded to the press with the confidence of knowing who they are as Christians and African Americans. The mainstream press, namely, Fox Cable News began the onslaught to pressure Senator Obama to denounce his minister's statements. Some of you are too young to recall when the dominant culture became very open with its conservative right ideology with a celebrated and declared transformation to this vantage point beginning under Reagan and continuing today. In the black community, we often discussed if some of their spiritual advisors donned sheets at nights and stood around trees and crosses. (Yes I said it, and I earned the right to say it after serving nine years as a commissioned officer in the Air Force.) Yes, William Jefferson Clinton was a democratic president; however, under his administration, the deregulation of the media accelerated the creation of media conglomerate moguls who serve as the gatekeepers to discourse and topics of the nation and attempt to shape how individuals should think about issues. It is counterproductive to have free-thinking individuals in a society, if the major thrust of media conglomerates is capitalism and increasing wealth. Their intent is to cultivate consumers to spend and not be involved in the issues of society. Do we continue to allow the moguls to be gatekeepers to topics and issues that are important to our community and society at-large. Or do we embrace the freedoms for which Minister Wright and others fought. We must decide, if we are going to be open to true diversity of opinions, standpoints and ideologies. In a democratic public sphere, an open society must engage in discourse on the opinions of Wright, Flake, Farrakhan, Jackson, Gordon, Sharpton and the like and it also has to permit, without hindrance, access to the views of Ferraro, Steele, Falwell and others that may fall anywhere in the spectrum of opinion. Or are we open to the challenge of true diversity? Probe deeply for your answer.
from an African American woman
As a nation, we have missed two chances of having two greatest U. S. presidents--Gore and Kerry. Both men are intelligent and wise. Now Obama is indeed a "once in a life time" leader who we can't afford to not elect as our next president after eight years of disgrace, damage and despair. We need a president who will unite, not divide, who will put our country's interest before and above any political party's interest, who dares to dream and offers hope for our people. I believe Obama's speech on race will be regarded another "I Have a Dream" speech by historians in the next 10 years!
If Sen. Obama had distinguished himself clearly in the Illinois senate, he would point to his successes. And voters wouldn't care about the company he keeps. However, he again claimed that his DNA makes him most qualified to lead America, while the company he keeps belies his rhetoric. It's not about religion, but credibility.
Obama has spoken well. Pastor Wright's comment were directed at the American Government and not the white community but the gravity and his manner of execution is way too bad, it is unbecoming of a Pastor. Let us ask ourselves (in our thoughts and heart of heart, i mean): Have i ever had reservations against someone because of his/her colour? One way or the other, we might have done this. This is the time for us to acknowledge our wrongdoings, both whites and blacks have been hurt and affected by this colour thing... let us embrace this crusader who is ready to bring all out to address this issue. It is not necessary that he becomes President, Americans have the right to elect whomever they want as President. Instead of carrying out survey on Pastor Wright's comment which will not do the nation any good, why not conduct a nationwide survey to ascertain the level of hurt, hate and resentment racism have caused in our society, that would do us more good. I think the press are just being idle, junk journalism is what i will never embrace in my life... we should focus on progressive things, where is our sixth sense? we shouldn't allow these political raiders to them off us.
Finally, America is great nobody can bring it down even a thousand comments from Pastor Wright cannot bring it down.... Be progressive, ever faithful Americans
ps: this message is not meant for the ignorant, it's meant for those who are ready for change, it is meant for those who are ready for change.
On the issue of religion, there is no denying that the United States of America is a christian nation. On this very day, Good Friday, Christ died for all Americans, black, white, hispanics, native, asian, etc., and the rest of the world.
On the issue of race, we should look at ourselves in the mirror and also look into our hearts, there we will know whether racism and hatred of our fellowmen is what motivate us every day. Do we, as Americans love our fellowmen as ourselves?
"You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."
Religion has always been the foundation for all moral and spiritual values in a person'slife:what you say and do are reflections of your value system. Reference is mad e to "Freudian slip" when your truth gets out!!
Well listening to Obama's speech I could see a man trying to be as truthful as can be tolerated by the American Public. He could have come out to say " I condemn Rev. Wright, I disown him and will never have anything to do with him" But he is trying to be realistic. Human beings are complexe, they are capable of good and bad, granted Rev. Wrights statements are outrageous but there other aspects of him that are highly commendable. Is obama not going to be a hypocrite coming and tell Americans what they want to hear.
I think we should lay aside all these distractions as soon as possible, one can have friends who they don't totally agree with, let us think of Obama's potentials as the next Chief of Staff. It has been disclosed that Hilary Clinton told lies about her involvement with NAFTA,
she was denying her involvement because she has come to realize that wwasn't a good decision too.
Democrates I am looking forward to your coming into power next but the way you are dividing your house over nomination is helping the Republicans in thier general election campaignes against you. Think of the party and not individuals as you attack each other.
I think it's a travesty that we're always focusing on things other than what really matters for the "COUNTRY" and not individuals. My take is that its strange how this has all played out. The first was the Geraldine Ferraro comments. She's entitled to her opinions as is everyone else and should we condemn her just because our views/opinions are different? The same for Rev. Wright. Its an opinion, not a fact and he's entitled to them. I don't think its right to make anyone else accountable for what others think or believe. Also, the fact that the Geraldine issue is already old news and the Rev. Wright issue is Big news just goes to show how much race is still an ongoing issue for the politicians and the media. It should be banned from discussion because it's the country thats going to be under the President of the US, not AA or Whites or Latinos or any other race. It's a melting pot of cultures, not The United Race of America. Get over Race and look at the big picture, the economy, bringing our troops home and making the US responsible for our own resources.
Racial equality is not something which can be given to a race as a whole. Socio-economic equality must be earned. while I regret that our ancestors were ignorant enough to believe that slavery was OK, I am not responsible for their ignorant beliefs. I grew up in poverty, and have worked hard to give my children a better life. I've worked dozens of jobs where I saw african-americans & caucasions hired in and put through months of training just to say that the work was "too hard." I'll assure you that it is people like this who are the first to claim that everything is "unfair." Life isn't fair, and the majority of us recognize that. Obama's supporters have all grabbed onto his ideology and are hoping for equality to be given. If you seek handouts, then you will always be a begger on the street.
I know that this blog is usually exclusively devoted to politics, but I just have to add some literary criticism. How in the world could anyone extract spiritual and moral wisdom from Ian McEwan?! The man took 125 pages in "Atonement" to nostalgically describe an English manor before he even started to say something. McEwan is the pretentious type of writer who pats himself on the back when he can combine metaphor with alliteration-and still not say anything of great import.
Justin if you are really looking for an agnostic writer to act as a substitute for spiritual works such as the Dalai Lama's, better to take Kurt Vonnegut anyday.
Justin,
I know you've probably seen this, but your readers might be interested in this link.
It explains why hyperbole, taken out of context, is a dangerous thing. CNN posted extended transcripts of the 9/11 Wright speech. It paints a completely different picture than the sound bites:
P.S. I really appreciate reading your perspective here in the states! Debate and public discourse is a good thing.
Re #2's comments about capitalism versus idealism. It's a strange comment for either a capitalist or an idealist to make.
One of the tenets of capitalism, and general support for 'free market' policies, is that by this route, you make the pie bigger. The reason for giving tax breaks to the wealthy is not (supposed to be) to make them wealthier, but that in doing so, they'll create even more wealth for everybody else, for instance.
Zero sum thinking is exactly the problem Obama correctly identified. Whether you're an idealist or capitalist, it's possible to arrive at the same conclusion. (Plus, it's actually possible to be an idealistic capitalist.)
As day succeeds day in this interminable rat race(I refer to both the media and the candidates!), it becomes more apparent that Obama could well be "toast". The Wright debacle is grist to the media mill, and will not die a natural death, as Obama's camp obviously dearly hopes.
On the other side of the Democratic coin, Hillary has not done herself any favors by redacting so much of those papers that she has withheld for so long. One has to wonder what dire secrets those blacked-out words hold. And now we have the passport saga! How much more bizarre can this ongoing soap opera get?
"The fact that he is shouting in the clips, and swaying about, does not do him any favours."
With who? And who is pushing this agenda? This is how black pastors preach. FCS Justin, you're supposed to understand America - which America do you understand?
Previously you've stated - in relation to Wright - how you don't understand black anger. Are you even making the attempt?
Well, today on Fox, two hosts got so fed up with their network's insistent focus on Wright and the race wedge that one railed at colleagues and another walked out. They understand what's going on. As does Huckerbee - did you hear him? - and a lot of other conservatives.
Not you. This just is not good enough from a senior 成人论坛 American reporter. You are being out-classed by Fox hosts - and that really says something.
Obama's speech was an historic break which a lot of Americans get - I have yet to see any evidence that you or any of your colleagues do.
Just like, how feelings cannot be passed on to others using words.
The true feelings about racial discrimination can only be experienced..
So the majority populus who have NOT lived in a minority world will ever understand or appreciate the issues of race.
It is like showing DOG colors of rainbow.. Unless experienced nobody will truely understand..
Thank you so much Harriet (28).
Who can possibly disagree with the Reverend Gentleman?
Not me! He expresses my exact feelings at the time.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed
If Obama could not dump
Mr Wright during 20 years of these histrionics, how will he ever get rid of a bad advisor if (hhelpus) he ever get to the white house
Harriet (28) thanks very much for the link giving the crucial information that in his "911" sermon, Wright was quoting a white US ambassador. I urge everyone to follow the link. You say "Justin, I know you've probably seen this." Well, Mr, Webb, had you? If so, why didn't you point your readers to this crucial contextual information? If not, isn't it your job to look for such things? After all, CNN's website isn't all that obscure, is it?