I moved to the area in 2009 and lived in and I heard a bit about this local mythology but there wasn’t that much information about it, and I didn’t look too deeply into it. One day my wife, Adele, who’s also a writer, was visiting a place called in Barnard Castle in Durham, she walked into the library and was looking along the shelves and there was one book that didn’t have a spine on it. She pulled it out, put it on the table and it fell open at the trial notes of the , so she was reading them from 1770 and she came home that day and said ‘You know the coiners story?’ and I said ‘yes I know a bit about it’ and she said ‘that would make a brilliant TV series, you should write it’ and I said ‘well I don’t know how to write telly, but I could have a go and write a novel and maybe could film it one day with some of the actors from .’ That was in 2014, and it wasn’t even a plan, it was sort of a joking pipe dream really.

Anyway, that’s what I did. I spent most of that year 2014 and 2015 researching it and writing, I’d already walked a lot of the moors and woodlands around here and during my research I discovered that James Broadbent worked in a cottage called ‘The Stub’ as a weaver and that was the house I’d just moved out of. I thought this is too good to be true, I know the locations, and Bell House - some friends of mine are architects and they’d worked on the refurb of that house - I was basically in the middle of what felt like a film set. I’d walked all the old routes and all the old tracks, and I thought well ok I’ve done the research in terms of I know the area, now I have to find out the historical facts, which was a more laborious process. So I read through lots of dry and dusty accounts of the Cragg Vale coiners in this highfalutin legal language from the 18th Century and I wrote the book.

But there were a few things that fed in to it as I was writing it, for example one of my neighbours in Mytholmroyd, her nickname’s Pauline Dragon, was telling me that she grew up on the edge of the moor above Cragg Vale and she said ‘You know there’s funny things going on up there, when I was a kid, one night I woke up and there were these stag-headed men in my bedroom and they were dancing round my bed and I could see this steam pluming off them, it happened twice, and I swear I wasn’t asleep, it was real, and I told my parents and they were like ‘shut up, don’t tell anyone that, they’ll think you’re nuts.’ So there were a few things told to me during the writing of the book like that, and I thought well I’ve got to include that detail and perhaps it could be David Hartley who sees the stag-headed men. 

Once that fell into place, I thought only a certain type of person would probably admit to that, so I decided to make him this visionary guy, prone to delusions and hallucinations and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the book. I didn’t want to write an historic account because they already exist, I wanted to write something that was a bit psychedelic and over the top and kind of reflected the intensity of this landscape, because at any time of year, but particularly in autumn and winter when you walk around these moors by yourself, you can feel a sense of history that’s there in the soil and it’s a magical feeling but it’s a bit malevolent as well. So I wanted to take a true story and crank it up in to something that’s pushing the boundaries of what historical fiction is really.

The book was sent out to 10 publishers and they all turned it down, so I published it through a small publisher called based in Hebden Bridge, who I’d already done two books with, and they understand the area, they understand the story, and we built the whole thing up from the ground. Myself and Kevin Duffy who runs that publisher, we launched it in, what is now (on screen in the series), Barb’s pub in Heptonstall, which is otherwise known as , in the Spring of 2017 when the book came out, and built it up as a word of mouth thing. We printed 2000 copies and it got some good reviews in national press and then booksellers started getting in touch, it had a very eye-catching cover designed by a friend of mine and it just gradually built and built and built and then it was optioned for film and then in Autumn 2019, I got a call from saying ‘a director’s read it and he wants to make it and we’ve got a name for you’. This was on the phone and I was in a remote cottage in Scotland writing another book, and I said ‘who’s the name?’ and they said ‘It’s Shane Meadows’ and I put my hand over the phone and went ‘F***ing hell!’ to my wife, and then said back in to the phone ‘Oh great, that’s interesting’, so it had come full circle.

Shane Meadows, writer and director, on his vision for the TV Drama of The Gallows Pole:

I really wanted to delve into the history of this story and the circumstances that lead to an entire West Yorkshire community risking their lives to put food in their children’s bellies.

It was during the workshopping process with the actors I realised there was also a story to tell leading up to Ben’s incredible book. A prequel that not only allowed us to understand ‘why’ the Cragg Vale Coiners did what they did, but maybe fall in love with them a smidge while they did it. It may have turned into one of the biggest crimes in British history, but it was pulled off by a bunch of destitute farmers and weavers doing what they had to to survive, and I think people will resonate with that.

You can tell a story in any century if you care about the characters, but there was something so attractive about this period in British history. Large mouthfuls of West Yorkshire were about to be inhaled by the Industrial Revolution and our country and its unspoilt sides set to change forever. So it was an honour to be able to go back and hold up a magnifying glass to some of dudes that were living through it.

Marry that with a cast that pitches some of the UK’s finest actors alongside an awesome array of brand spanking new Yorkshire talent and you have a series unlike anything else I’ve made before.

Watch The Gallows Pole on 成人论坛 Two and 成人论坛 iPlayer

成人论坛 News Article - on the first-time actors amongst the cast

When you first thought up the idea for Guilt did you ever imagine you’d be at this point, just about to see the third and final series be broadcast? 

I did have a pipe-dream of doing a trilogy but that felt like something that was so distant in those early days when it was just about trying to get the show on the air and keeping it on the air. That’s the big challenge. It’s very hard to get a show on television and it’s even harder to keep it there. 

After the second series, when I spoke to the 成人论坛, I said that what I’d like to do is one more and I feel very privileged to have been given the opportunity. 

How does it feel to have been able to tell a complete story over twelve hours of television? 

It’s a fantastic feeling. It’s so rare as a television writer to be the one who actually makes the decision that a show is going to come to an end. To sit down with a third series and think “This is it, how do I want the story to end? Which characters do I want to bring back to tie things up?”. That was extremely satisfying as a writing exercise. It’s the first time I’ve ever had a series where I’ve made that decision as the writer so I found that quite exciting actually, to literally get to the end of a story.

In the first series the theme of Guilt was everywhere whereas in the second series Revenge was a strong theme. Would you say there is an over-arching theme to this third and final series? 

That thematic approach has been Guilt in the first series, Revenge in the second and in the third it is Redemption. This time around it was interesting to watch the characters in their own ways all seek some level of redemption. What that might look like to each of them was also interesting. 

Alongside those big over-arching themes what are some of the other ideas that lie behind the story of Guilt? 

I think with the brothers, what I tried to do with Guilt is let the characters guide me a little bit through the story and think “what is it about these characters that I still want to know?” It was about digging deeper with all the characters and really getting into their past and their identities to try and understand their outlook and their motivations in the present. Without giving too much away, with the brothers (Max and Jake) I send them back into their past (in a family sense) and it was really interesting to watch them battle with these issues. I think the big thing with me, in terms of knowing that the story has come to an end, is that there’s nothing more about these characters that I need to know. I think that’s a sign for the writer that it’s time to move on.

You also recently adapted The Gold for 成人论坛 One, the story of the Brink's Mat robbery. What is it about the world of crime and criminality that you like exploring?

I think what I find interesting is murky morality. I think writing a black and white moral world isn’t particularly interesting. I don’t think that’s where you end up with a nuanced story or nuanced characters. The greyness in morality is very interesting. Seeing people get sucked into the grey or try to battle out of it gives a show an interesting energy and a great element of surprise. I don’t want to write an overt ‘baddy’ or ‘goody’ as a character, it’s about finding the shades within them. Crime drama lends itself to that. 

What I found interesting with The Gold was characters who would have woken up in the morning and the last thing they would have expected was that by the time they went to bed they would have somehow got involved with a large international criminal conspiracy, and yet they did! Those people – what are their stories? How did this happen? Why people commit crimes is far more interesting than the crimes they commit and that’s something that I explored in The Gold (and indeed in Guilt). 

Do you think your background in journalism has fed into that curiosity? 

It definitely helped with The Gold, which is a vast, vast story. It was about doing the research, being organised and then really looking at the story journalistically in terms of “Where is the television show within this? How can I tell a sprawling and yet relatively concise version of this quite disorganised, multiple story-lined true story. There was certainly a journalistic approach in terms of just finessing the thing and getting it to a manageable size. Then it became far more creative once I got to actually scripting it out.

How did you decide what to keep and what to lose from the screen version of The Gold? 

It has to be both interesting and part of something bigger. It needs to be interlinked with bigger narratives. There are lots and lots of fascinating little nuggets in the , even characters and even whole storylines which are not in the television show because they don’t interweave satisfyingly with the bigger narratives. You’ve got to have something that feels like a whole, with lots of moving parts within it which interplay in a satisfying way. There were things that were very regretfully not included. The show’s researcher, Thomas Turner and I were left with this vast research document with lots of story that we hadn’t used in the TV show so we turned that into a book, so none of that work was wasted.

How is the sense of place so important in Guilt? 

I lived in for a long time. I feel that I have a connection to Leith and to Edinburgh as a whole. I think it’s a fascinating city. One thing that we explore in Guilt (and it’s a well-trodden path) is the duality of Edinburgh. The old and the new, the dark and the light. That’s something which has been used creatively from onwards and gives the show a validated feel as an Edinburgh-set drama. And then there’s the east coast Scots aspect to it. I’m a Dundonian and I think that the east coast of Scotland has a very particular voice and outlook which is poignant and romantic but there’s a slightly absurdist element to the humour which is something that runs through and certainly through Guilt. 

Writing regional television is not about accents but about voice. They are very different things, one of them is much deeper than the other. Hopefully with Guilt we’ve created a show that has a voice, and that’s a voice which has some validation in terms of its setting. 

Leith itself is an area in flux but has a history of re-invention and a slight otherness. A lot of people from Leith wouldn’t necessarily see themselves as coming from Edinburgh. One aspect I touch on in the third series is the boundary between Leith and Edinburgh. There was a famous pub called The Boundary Bar that the boundary ran through on Leith Walk and that plays into the plot of the third series, that whole boundary between Leith and Edinburgh.

Despite that local specificity Guilt has found an audience around the world. Why do you think that is? 

It’s gone out in dozens of countries and has been remade in India and optioned in America for a possible US remake. Far more people have watched Guilt around the world than in the UK which is incredible really. I think it’s because it’s both extremely distinctive but has enough depth to it that there are characters and relationships that can be universally recognised. But particularly in the first series the fundamental dramatic building blocks are very accessible. Two very different brothers are thrown into an extreme situation and have to uncomfortably work together to get out of it. That’s not a complicated dramatic premise in terms of its starting point. I think that helps to sell it. 

Some of the alternative titles have been ‘The Bloody Brothers’ (India), ‘A Small Murder Between Brothers’ (France), ‘Our Little Secret’ (Sweden), ‘Nobody is Guilty (Germany) – which is probably the one I find most confusing!

How difficult is it to get a show like Guilt made? 

There was a bit of serendipity involved. I had pitched Guilt in America. I had a spell where I was writing quite a few pilot scripts for the American market, which was exciting – I loved going over there and going around the studios. It was financially welcome but creatively quite dispiriting because none of them got made. These American networks tend to hoover up a huge amount of ideas and order the scripts but they don’t end up in production and it’s very, very difficult to get those scripts back from America. I had pitched the idea of Guilt in America and very nearly got a script order from a big studio. Thankfully I didn’t because that would have been Guilt gone. I would never have got it back.

Having failed to sell it there, when I came back I thought that where I really wanted to set this show was in Leith. That is the place that I know. So I wrote the scripts and pitched it to 成人论坛 Scotland who were in the process of launching a new channel. had originally commissioned Bob Servant from me years before, so I quite tentatively sent him the script as I hadn’t written episodic drama before and he came back to me over the weekend. I was fortunate that 成人论坛 Scotland were looking for a drama to help launch the new channel and for something very Scottish. That was in 2019 and now we’re here four years later with the final series going out. 

Has Guilt changed your writing career? 

I’m not sure many other networks would have given me the opportunity to make a drama series at that point. Guilt has been absolutely integral to my career and made such a difference that I think I was then taken much more seriously when I pitched something like The Gold. Again though, with The Gold, I had first written the pilot script. That’s something that I increasingly do with a new development – I write the opening script. I think it’s really helpful for me to be able to work out the show in my own little world and to be able to present that. I think that writing treatments can just lead to endless conversations before you’ve even written a word of script, which can muddy the mind of the writer a little bit. 

The script of The Gold bounced about for years through various incarnations and people before the timing was right with the 成人论坛.

Do you always write the whole pilot script for a show before approaching broadcasters with the idea? 

In an ideal world I’ll go to broadcasters with a pilot script and a series outline because I think it’s far more interesting to read a script than a treatment document. I also feel that I’ve then been allowed to create the show that I want to create. Of course if you go into production then it becomes a collegiate and collaborative process but at least those fundamental building blocks of the pilot script and the overall outline are something that I have written with a clear head and no other voices around me. If they don’t want to make it then at least you feel that you have presented the best version of that show and the version that you believe in the most.

I also feel with treatments that they are such embryonic visions of a television show that it can be quite dangerous for a writer. If you take a fundamental note on that treatment that you don’t wholly agree with – you might think “well it’s only changing this character’s outlook or changing this relationship” but when you extrapolate that out over a six episode series it’s a seismic change to the original vision you had and when you get to episode four you may think “why did I say yes to that because now I’ve got this character I don’t understand” or “I’ve lost what I really liked about this character”. 

Having experienced the system in the US do you find it easy to keep generating new ideas? 

It helps working off a lot of true stories where it’s a lot of creative writing but the essence of the story is existing. Or with Guilt I’ve spent so long with those characters that they do genuinely help me find story because I understand how those characters are going to react to situations. If you have strong characters then you get strong story.  So if you have a really deep and nuanced understanding of a character then you can work out how they might react to situations and drive you on to the next consequence of their actions. 

If you are pitching lots of ideas and writing lots of pilot scripts I think there’s a danger that you start to get a little bit ‘hacky’ and start looking at other shows that have sold and slightly tweaking their premise. I definitely reached a period of my career five or six years ago now where I hit a wall and spent too long in that system pitching ideas that were half-baked or superficial and ended up writing scripts that were half-baked and superficial as a result. I had a period where I just took a month off writing and reset and thought back to my days as a journalist, my interest in true stories and writing something that meant something to me. That month I wrote a one-page document that became Guilt. I read Eddie Braben’s book which became ‘Eric, Ernie and Me’ and I wrote a couple of little pitches that became a couple of the that I wrote for Sky Arts. So it was incredibly fruitful.

One of the things I did that month was I wrote (and I keep this on a board in my office) Do You Want To Write This? It’s quite important as a writer that you are writing something for the right reasons. Is this something that you are creatively excited about or are you just writing something because it might sell because it’s a bit like that other show on TV?

How would you describe your writer’s voice? How does comedy play into it? 

I think I write stories that are dramatically driven – I never come up with a story point just to create a funny situation – comedy should play no part in the outlining. Character, drama and story drive the outline. But when I’m writing a script then humour is always available as a way that a character might react to pressure or conflict. I think six part dramas where no one says anything funny actually feel unrealistic and superficial because that doesn’t really reflect real life. 

Any advice you can share? 

While it’s always interesting to explore societal issues and touch on bigger themes, you can’t let that outweigh the storytelling. I try to write things that are hopefully nuanced but are also unashamedly entertaining. I do think about people coming home from work exhausted and turning on the TV. When I’m writing a script I always think “Why are they still watching this after ten pages?”, “Why are they still watching after ten minutes?” Also I want to find it exciting if I’m going to have to read a script a hundred times! 

My biggest tip for a new writer would be to write something that you believe in, that you’re excited about. Make sure that is your motivation because it might not get made and if it doesn’t get made then you want to have a script that you are really proud of and that you feel made you a better writer while you were writing it. Don’t write a script because you think it’s the kind of show that you think might get made or you’ve read somewhere that people are looking for this kind of thing. Sit and write the show that you want to write because that’s the only way that you’re going to become a better writer. 

My practical advice would be – I always know what I’m going to write tomorrow. The last thing I do at night is write myself a little note saying “tomorrow, starting page 10" or "scene 11” and it’s always the biggest problem I’ve got. I always try and write the hardest scene I have to write first thing and it’s amazing how often it’s not challenging at all when you’ve got some reserves of energy. When I’m tired and I’ve still got to do some more I tend to read the scenes that are working, the ones that are nearly there as that gives you a bit of confidence ahead of tomorrow. 

The other thing is the importance of stopping. It’s counter-productive to put yourself through huge marathon writing sessions when you don’t need to. Get away from the desk and live your life. It’s when you’re out doing something else that you’re more likely to come up with the little narrative fix that you’ve been looking for rather than staring at a wall for five hours. It’s out there in the world that you’re going to get your ideas and have the experiences – good and bad – that will feed into your work.       

Watch all three series of Guilt on 成人论坛 iPlayer

Watch The Gold on 成人论坛 iPlayer

Read the scripts for the first two series of Guilt

How did you first get involved with Floodlights?

My agent got in touch and two producers from ( and ) came up to see me. They’d already written a document which was pretty extensive on the research side. All the information which hadn’t really come out, beyond the Guardian and the television interviews with Victoria Derbyshire, was in that document. 

They came up to Manchester. Their document was so informative that I just thought “this is something that you’ve got to take on”.

What was your awareness of the story before that?

I’m not on Twitter, but I knew there had been this storm through the press and I just remember feeling that this was a different kind of abuse scandal because it was a professional footballer who had been involved. I read the Guardian and the , but beyond that it was a news story to me like everyone else. 

Why did you want to take on this project?

I could see why the producers had seen me originally as a good fit for the project as it was set in the late 80s and 90s in Manchester and about football. I think for me it was because I was personally aware of the world that it was set in. I wasn’t having to go that far in my imagination to understand the football pitches that Andy Woodward had been brought up on as a kid, and those kinds of coaches who were very gregarious and good at football. I’d seen Andy play as well, so those clubs that he was involved in and the area that he came from, and almost the kind of economic class, it was relevant to me. As far as casting the net wide in the mind, it wasn’t that far to cast. Sometimes that’s quite comforting if you’re a writer.

Why do you think that drama is the way to tell this story rather than documentary? What does drama bring?

More awareness is the goal. Drama touches more people and people seem to watch it more, it has a more lasting effect. The information that we’re trying to put out needs to keep coming and I think a drama is really apt on this occasion because there are still lessons to be learnt. The more you shine ‘floodlights’ on these situations then hopefully we finally don’t have to write dramas about these subjects.

As far as drama and what it does, I always think that with documentaries you’re on the outside looking through the window at the living room whereas with drama you’re actually in the living room. With good actors you bring things to life in such a different way that I think you can connect to an audience in a more succinct way. 

Did you carry out your own research beyond that which you were given at the start of the project? Did you speak to the people involved?

I had to really because Andy hadn’t written his book by this time so there was no blueprint or manuscript to refer to, to answer questions. Normally there is a book, which does answer a lot of your primary questions. We didn’t have that, so once I’d structured the drama I had lots of questions which I had to ask Andy directly. That happened over a three day period in Manchester where we sat down and I just had to ask and he had to answer.  What I didn’t want to do was just say “well how did it happen?” I wanted those questions to be targeted towards the structure and outline of the script, so that we didn’t go into areas that we didn’t have to, just because of the trauma.

How did you devise the structure for telling the story?

Originally the script was in three storylines and three timelines, all three intertwined which really worked on the page. We were always going along the lines of the kid, the footballer and the cop. Almost like three acts in their own right. Originally we’d thought of three episodes in the way that Three Girls was structured, in those act structures. But we then realised that it’s a very difficult topic to come back to, especially if you hadn’t watched the first or second episode then could you enter at the third, probably not. So we then revised it into a single drama, as hopefully people will stay for the 80 or 90 minutes if it’s good enough.

Then we needed to make it contemporary – for me it started out as the contemporary story - in other words the Andy who we saw in the news in 2016. As we went into the edit we realised that the story was totally within football and it made sense to leave the cop strand for a third act standalone and intertwine the two storylines of the kid and the footballer. We all thought that brought you into the drama in a way which emphasised the unique aspect of this story – the football.

How do you manage the risks and responsibilities of telling a true and very sensitive story? Were there gaps you had to fill or invent in any way?

It’s all pretty much invention in the sense that it’s a ‘movie’ not a documentary. It’s all from my head as my interpretation of speaking to the people involved, speaking to Andy and researching everything around it. So I look at it all as invention, but invention based in truth.

As far as the moral responsibility is concerned you do think about that and about the people involved not just in the targeted story that you’re telling but also in the other stories that you can’t tell and how this affects people once it goes out. You have to weigh up the pros and cons and come out on the side of ‘what’s the greater good here?’. At the end I felt that this drama and (without sounding too pompous) the greater good that it could achieve was a lot better than not doing it.

Were there key themes that you really wanted to get across?

Football was obviously the main one and I think that crossed into male angst and mental illness of men and the silence that a lot of men take to their graves in whatever shape or form. That was something that I really wanted to explore. It seemed to me that there were other victims and getting that message out will hopefully help guys. If you see people like Andy speaking, then hopefully the normal guy in the street will feel able to speak too.

Do you think there was anything particular about that environment which enabled someone like Bennell?

He did it on such a massive scale. He groomed everybody with his skills and his persona and his larger than life character and his humour. I don’t think it’s necessarily toxic masculinity, I just think he was good at what he did – that included the football but sadly also finding ways to carry out abuse. 

What can we learn from this story? Why do these things keep happening? What are the takeaways from Floodlights?

I think we are still at risk and I don’t know how you stop these things from happening because people like Bennell are very devious. As the world changes and safeguarding goes up then are they looking elsewhere to do what they do? I just hope that in five or ten years’ time that we’re not still creating dramas like Three Girls or Floodlights. That’s not to take away from them but I just hope that we don’t have to keep telling these stories because that means they’ve continued to happen.

We do have a hopeful ending, I think you’ve got to have that. I hope people go and ask questions about ‘why?’. Times change so quickly but there was a in the 90s about it and it’s mad that wasn’t acted upon then.

The takeaways should be that if anyone feels that this is happening to them that there’s a way to sort it out.

Watch Floodlights on 成人论坛 Two and 成人论坛 iPlayer from Tuesday 17th May at 9pm

If you have been affected by the issues raised in Floodlights please visit the 成人论坛's Action Line for information and support

Watch Football's Darkest Secret on 成人论坛 iPlayer

What is The North Water about?

The story is about ‘Patrick Sumner’ (Jack O'Connell) a disgraced ex-army surgeon who sets sail on a whaling ship, essentially to forget his past. On the voyage he is tested to the limits both by nature but also by the nature of man.

Why did you want to be a part of the project of adapting and creating The North Water?

I was working on another project when , sent me the book. On reading the first 20 pages, I was like, "I want to do this, I have to do this". There was something incredibly special about it, in that it’s a historical drama, a thriller, but really it seems to say something very important about the nature of what drives us as human beings, as individuals, as people.

How did you go about adapting the book?

As with any adaptation, you want to approach it with care and consideration, and try to understand what the author was trying to say. Then it is about articulating that in a way that makes sense for the screen.

How did you develop the characters?

You have to try and understand all the characters, which for me is always trying to understand what makes people work, how they see the world, how they understand the world, how they exist in the world. Trying to understand them is an in-depth process. Once you feel that you can understand them, then you can start to write them, but the truth is, the novel was so well written and so well set up, and the characters feel so vivid and real, and the things that are driving them forward, their motivations, fears, desires and secrets, are all so well expressed in the novel, that it made my job infinitely easier.

What is the difference between Drax (Colin Farrell) and Sumner (Jack O’Connell)?

I feel that Drax and Sumner are essentially two sides of the same coin. One is a person who lives through instinct (Drax) and the other lives through using his intellect. I certainly see Drax as the shadow of Sumner in many respects; he is what Sumner is trying to repress and hide and keep secret.

Why did you decide to shoot in the Arctic?

When I first read the book, I knew that I wanted to shoot it in the real environment. Most people do not shoot these kinds of things in the real environment, but for me it was fundamentally important. I didn’t really want to do it if I couldn’t do that. I wanted it to feel authentic and real, and to do that, I needed to shoot in the Arctic.

We were up to 81 degrees north, 24 hours away from land at some points, locked in the sea ice. It was not an easy experience. It was very cold, sometimes terrifying, and really challenging, but to me that was what was so exciting about it. Luckily, we had a bunch of crew and actors who also thought this was exciting, so we could all do it together.

I was terrified. I think we all were. None of us really knew what to expect. I’d been on some scouts up there, so I had seen the environment already, but it was nerve-wracking to know that we were going to be on a boat for a month, all the crew, all the cast, in very close quarters. It was a big cast and I wanted to ensure that everyone got on, that it was an enjoyable experience, and in the end, what made me very happy was that it was such an incredible experience for all of us.

You feel very privileged to be in that environment and that part of the world. We had very few days off in the Arctic, but you’d go on to the deck and see a family of polar bears climbing across the ice - that doesn’t happen every day. And I like a challenge I suppose, I knew that it would be challenging, and that brings an energy to what you’re filming.

How did you cast The North Water?

What I found really fascinating about the novel is that this is not a story about explorers, it’s not naval officers heading off to search for the North-West Passage, it is working men (not upper-class men, who these stories are usually about) on a whaling ship, which is, essentially, a floating factory. These are men leaving their homes and going out to search for whale blubber. It is their way of making money, it’s their income but it is also their purpose, they take pride in their work. I thought that was really interesting. All of the actors, who felt right for that world, these are what these characters are. They are tough, strong men, and in many ways, this is a story about men. It was interesting to me to see a dynamic of all these men together. They are brutal and violent but they are also compassionate and kind, they are all of those things.

How was the working environment?

To be honest, the actors felt like the men on the ship. They were in close quarters, everyone had dinner and breakfast together, everyone was there together and there was no escape. By the end everyone was desperate to get off that ship, let’s face it. No internet, no phones, nothing. To have none of that for a month was actually quite special, and I think the actors loved it. It was great that we shot all the Arctic scenes first. That allowed those actors to bond and they are amazing actors. Despite all the stress and anxiety, I was really happy. It was a pretty incredible experience.

The actors astounded me in how they took to the environment, how they embraced it. I am throwing Colin Farrell on to a rowboat in the sea as huge chunks of ice crash against him. Or Jack O'Connell is running across an ice floe jumping over a crack. This was a really difficult environment to work in, and it was very very cold.

What were the challenges?

It was difficult. There were some really challenging moments. You’re with a Steadicam trying to follow someone across the ice. At one point later on we were on this island in the middle of this glacial inlet and they were really hard conditions to work in. It was very difficult, but the crew completely embraced it. Every morning you were up at five o’clock, you were on tiny speedboats going across the ice to join the main ship that we were filming on, climbing aboard in these immersion suits.

What did the background research involve?

It was a long process. is very well written so it has so much detail, and I did a lot of research on whaling, on sealing, on the whaling industry as a whole, but also, all your departments, your production designer, your costume designer, the amount of work that they put in to really nail down the detail. Obviously, the sets, we built the inside of some of the ship, we built Hull, we did all these things and the detail was fundamentally important to me. It takes a lot of time and a lot of energy. It is quite hard to do period well, I’ve never done period before, a lot of energy goes into it.

How did the actors become the characters?

I am always looking for complexity in the actors. I want my characters to be complex. I don’t want them to be clear-cut or for the audience to always understand what that character is going through at every moment along the way. Jack and Colin are really interesting actors. Putting them together was a really good combination.

How did Colin Farrell approach the role of Drax?

Colin did a lot of bulking up. He ate so much food and he worked out for ages to create ‘Drax’s’ physicality, which is very clear in the book. Drax is this huge beast of a man. It’s not about having lots of muscles or being strong, he’s just this animal. Colin spent a long time trying to physically become that person.

How is the show unique?

What sets this apart is that it doesn’t exist within one genre. It is a historical drama, a thriller, an adventure story, it is a lot of things in one, which is why I find it so interesting.

Also shooting in that environment sets it apart. We are not relying on special effects or visual effects. We are really there. It is a challenging piece of work, the book is very challenging to read, if anyone’s read the book. It’s not an easy subject matter. It is brutal, it’s terrifying, it’s also filled with moments of compassion.

The North Water is unlike anything else that I have seen on television. It is a different version of stories that have been told before, a more complex version, and it says a lot about where we are right now, how we exist in the world, how we live in the world, how we are destroying the world around us, how we are letting greed overtake us. This is a story about the few and the privileged exerting their power and dominance over everyone else for their own gain. It is a very contemporary story as well as being a thriller and a drama and a character study. Those things together, something that has a political resonance and has something to say about the way we live today, but also is still a fantastic story, are what sets it apart.

Watch The North Water on 成人论坛 Two and 成人论坛 iPlayer from Friday 10th September 2021 at 9.30pm

Read more interviews with the cast and crew on the 成人论坛's Media Centre

Sean, when did you start to write?

I think I was always quite creative as a kid, painting and making things and always loved reading, particularly the big fantasy sagas, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia for example. I loved the breadth of storytelling. I’ve always loved cinema and I think I discovered David Lynch's far too young, and remember being thrown by the creation of this ‘other world’. I’ve always been struck by storytelling that has quite a hermetic, unique and specific feel and its details.

I think I was writing before I consciously knew that was what I was doing. I remember reading , which had a real impact on me both as a story within its specific context of American history, but also emotionally. It was that combination of factual and fictional which appealed to me. One of the modules I studied at GCSE was Creative Writing, which included poems and because I liked spoken word and rap and its tapestry of language, I wrote some poems. My English teacher was really encouraging to me which was key because there wasn’t a huge amount of creative arts going on at my school.

When did you start to take your writing seriously?

I never entertained writing as something I could do as a living. I suppose my background meant that it wasn’t an obvious path, although saying that my dad was from rural Ireland and is a great storyteller!

It was while I was studying Drama that someone suggested sending something I’d written in to the Young Writers Programme. A brilliant man there sent a script I’d written as part of their Writers' Festival to the 成人论坛 Writersroom and that led to me getting the opportunity to write for radio. I gained a place on a Radio Drama Writer’s Course – which led to a short piece and then to a full length drama for new writing slot on Radio 3, The Wire, which was . I also had a short spell as a Writer in Residence with 成人论坛 Radio Drama.

Writing for radio made me understand a filmic way of writing – the ability to go anywhere. I applied to a scheme for writers new to TV called and had through that for Channel 4. I then wrote for as part of the writers’ room under . I wish there more writers’ room opportunities in the UK like Skins – I feel that it was very fortuitous for me to be there at the right time. I know that the is a great way into broadcast work too. I really credit 成人论坛 Writersroom as a wonderful opportunity at a very, very early stage in giving me a place to work, to write and to be in that creative environment.

At what point did you get an agent?

I was lucky to get an agent fairly early on. When I’d written my first ‘proper play’ someone at the theatre thought it would connect to an agent they knew. That led to a meeting and I was really lucky that first meeting led to me getting an agent. I think that was really key, because when the chips are down your agent is like your supporter. With writing you can be on your own quite a lot, so you need someone to speak to who can buoy you up.

What was the origin of Responsible Child, your new drama for 成人论坛 Two?

Responsible Child came out of an idea that the brilliant documentary maker had. He had attended a trial which compelled him to want to tell the story of a young boy, aged 12, who was being tried for murder. He strongly felt that it was a story that was best told through the medium of drama – which could reach a place that was maybe impossible for documentary. He had established a relationship with the production company who reached out to me when Nick was looking for a writer to collaborate with on the project. I met Nick and the Executive Producers and and I felt that we really connected in the story and its ambition. As a writer it can feel like a marathon to getting something made, but in this case I felt a passionate desire to be involved with this story.

How much of the story is true and how much is fictionalised?

The story is based on a true story, but due to its nature and the way in which it’s told – entirely through the point of view of a 12 year old boy and his life from the moment of him turning up at the police station through custody to pre-trial, actual trial and sentencing – it’s parallel to the real story. I wanted to take the audience as close as possible to that experience through the boy’s eyes and his understanding of going through what is essentially an adult penal system.

Drama can do this wonderfully. It’s that fundamental question of ‘who is this person and why have they done this thing’? You have a very specific world, which in this case I approached almost like I would approach Sci-Fi, because to the child themselves they are in a very strange and alien environment, and for the audience to appreciate how that feels, what the child understands, what he doesn’t understand and the kindness that comes out of left field from the people involved in different aspects of that system.

What are you hoping the audience will take away from Responsible Child?

I want it to speak to an audience who might have engaged with this story at a certain level through news or perhaps the sort of sensational coverage that comes with it, but instead to appreciate it at a very emotional and experiential level. It would be great if it plants the question in the head of someone who watches as to whether this is the best way to charge children with serious crime, given what we know now about the neurology of a child’s brain and how it develops.

The ambition with the story was always to tell a very pure story of the boy’s life and to ensure that the human story was never overshadowed by the issues involved. I hope that is what the audience will feel, that it troubles the head and churns the heart.

What research did you do and who did you speak to?

To research Responsible Child I was given notes from the real trial on which it is based and spoke to and met with the legal team, including the central barrister, shadowing her in court on a separate trial. I spent time learning about the world. I also met with other members of the legal team. To build the journey and the steps that the child goes through it was fundamental that Nick and I met with eminent child psychologists and spoke with them about their experience of similar children who had been taken through and tried through the same system. We also met with other people involved in associated services – the Youth Offending team for example - to get a holistic picture of the whole world, to give the story the spine that it would need to take the audience through that system.

Do you have any advice you can share for other writers who want to follow in your footsteps?

I’ve been lucky to have been given some wonderful advice over the years, the best being ‘just keep going’. I think as I’ve been lucky enough to write for TV I’ve come to realise that the hardest thing can be to keep going and to keep your energy levels for a project which can take years to come to fruition. Things in TV take time and don’t get made overnight! You need to keep believing in your writing while staying open to other people’s thoughts.

How about dealing with script notes? 

How it feels to deal with script notes depends on the people that you’re working with. You need to have built up a rapport of trust and know that they are coming from a good place. You need to stay open to a slight shift in perspective and take time to allow that settle – so don’t instantly judge notes but let them settle and see how it feels and only then look at your work afresh. You need to find like-minded souls in the business and it’s wonderful when you do, that’s when a piece of work can really take off and come alive.

Watch Responsible Child on 成人论坛 Two on Monday 16th December at 9pm or on 成人论坛 iPlayer

What is Vienna Blood about?

Steve Thompson (screenwriter): The show is about a birth of a science. It’s about the birth of psychiatry, neurology and the understanding of the human brain and it’s essentially a crime thriller but the main relationship in the series is between two men; a policeman who is trying to solve a murder and a young psychiatrist from the hospital who he consults to help him build up an understanding of the killer.

We’ve seen lots of dramas, lots of police dramas about that relationship where psychological profiling is done in order to understand a killer, but this is the birth of the process, this is 1906 and it had never been done before - so what we’re witnessing in this show is the beginning of that process. The police just beginning to understand that psychology and psychiatry can actually help them solve a murder.

Tell us a little about what inspired you to write the Liebermann books?

Frank Tallis (novelist): I have three passions in life: Psychoanalysis, music and cake. So, the idea of writing Viennese thrillers in which a doctor-detective attends musical events and visits coffee houses was always very appealing. Needless to say, I took my research very seriously, visiting the coffee houses of Vienna with great frequency and now I really know my from my .

Vienna Blood is set in Vienna, Austria at the turn of the century - what made you choose Vienna as the setting for the story?

Frank Tallis: Vienna - around 1900 - was an extremely exciting place. Revolutionary ideas were emerging in all areas of human endeavour: Art, literature, philosophy, science, and most notably, psychiatry. One could also argue that Vienna in 1900 was the birthplace of modernism. Psychoanalytic thinking was an essential ingredient of this ‘modern’ outlook. It has shaped how we understand ourselves and our relationships. You may not consider yourself a Freudian, but you certainly think like one. You probably accept that parts of your mind function unconsciously, acknowledge Freudian ‘slips’ and use words like ‘defensive’. W.H Auden recognized this extraordinary depth of cultural penetration when he wrote, after ’s death in 1939, that he - Freud - is "no more a person now, but a whole climate of opinion.”

The Liebermann novels have been translated into fourteen languages. Why do you think the Liebermann books hold such international appeal to readers?

Frank Tallis: Crime writing has always been popular. But when I’ve gone on book tours and talked to readers in countries like France or Germany, many of them seem to really like the psychoanalysis. On reflection, this isn’t very surprising. Psychoanalysis and crime investigation have much in common. Clues are like symptoms, and the detective is like a psychoanalyst, attempting to make connections in order to find an ultimate cause. A perpetrator is as elusive as a repressed, unconscious memory. Freud was very aware that psychoanalysis and police detection are close cousins. In fact, he pointed this out in one of his lectures. It is also interesting that Freud was a great fan of detective fiction. One of his patients (known as The Wolfman) wrote a memoir and in it he reveals that Freud - who we usually think of as a reader of Sophocles and Dostoevsky - was a great fan of Sherlock Holmes!

Can you describe the screenwriting process?

Steve Thompson: Always when you’re developing a screenplay it can be quite a long journey. Of course, this is an adaptation of the books so there’s Frank's vision originally and then you go through various drafts of the script before you finally see it being filmed. The key thing is that’s a very collaborative process; Frank is one voice then there is my voice when I turn it into a screenplay then there are the voices of the directors; we’ve had two really great directors and who have directed these three episodes between them. And quite a lot of the development is a conversation between the director and the writer and also the producers. So there’s many voices in the room and that’s what makes the script more robust and richer one would hope as a result.”

How do you feel about having your novel turned into cinematic TV?

Frank Tallis: It’s curious seeing your work translated from one medium into another. For me, the experience was a little like hearing a favourite piano piece arranged for full orchestra. It’s the same piece - but it sounds very, very different. I once heard the jazz pianist Oscar Peterson talking about his preference for themes that gave him scope to improvise. Naturally, some melodies contain more possibilities than others. I think the same principle applies to characters and stories and I was delighted to discover that Max Liebermann and Oskar Rheinhardt could be reinterpreted and given a new lease of life; that they could still surprise even me.

What is your favourite scene?

Steve Thompson: There have been so many scenes to watch being filmed. I suppose one of the key things about it is that the entire show is filmed on location in Vienna. And Vienna is a key character and consequently every scene we got to a different place, a different ballroom, a different salon, a different part of this incredible city. Part of the fun of filming it has been me gradually having an understanding of Vienna and getting to know Vienna. We’ve seen some amazing places, so today we’re filming in the opera which is where one of the climaxes of one of the episodes takes place. So we’ve had two days in the opera house with the opera singers performing and that’s been quite extraordinary.

What do you hope viewers’ reactions will be to the show?

Frank Tallis: I’m hoping that viewers will reflect on some of the social and political content and recognize its contemporary relevance. Freud’s Vienna shaped much of 20th century history and it continues to exert an influence well into the 21st century. It was where a young Adolf Hitler served his dictator’s apprenticeship and learned a great deal by observing . The outcome was a global catastrophe. It was also in Freud’s Vienna that developed Zionism - which ultimately led to the foundation of Israel; the ramifications of which still animate debate.

Ideas have profound consequences and Freud’s Vienna was a powerhouse of ideas. Yet, we rarely make the connection between Freud’s Vienna and what’s happening in our lives or on the news. Back in Freud’s day, there was a lot being discussed in those coffee houses over Punschkrapfen and Kaiserschmarren. We might not realize it but we’re still having the same conversations.

Watch Vienna Blood on 成人论坛 Two and 成人论坛 iPlayer beginning on Monday 18th November 2019 at 9pm

We last spoke to you about Our World War which examined the experiences of British soldiers in World War One and looking at your career to date you’ve written comedy, drama, sci-fi and now a detective thriller. Do you have a favourite genre or one that feels more comfortable?

I’m not attracted to any one particular genre as much as I am to interesting characters and stories - whether they end up being in a rom-com or a horror movie is secondary, I think. I watch a wide variety of things so I’m always looking to try something different than what I’ve done before. Like when Kylie Minogue pivoted from pop music and did that really moody song about getting murdered with Nick Cave. You know? Like .

You've described spending 3 years being rejected by every agent? What was the turning point and how did you keep your motivation and self-belief?

The turning point was finally getting one of them to meet me! My agent, Jago, is a lovely man and the only person I wrote to who ever let me in his office. It was a bit hard to keep motivated at times. I once had a rejection letter from an agent who corrected my grammar in the email I’d sent him. I also queued for 45 minutes in the snow one Christmas to pick up a missed package which turned out to be one of my scripts that was being returned to me unread. I think I kept at it because I really wanted to do this and also, and I can’t emphasise this enough, I’m sh*t at everything else.

How important was it to get your agent? Do you have any advice to offer about that?

Check your grammar. Also (once you have a couple of good scripts) find an agent who represents writers you like as they’re more likely to respond to your work.

What brought you to the story of Giri/Haji?

About seven years ago my girlfriend had just started a crime science course. She was telling me about one of the other students on her course who was this middle aged detective who’d been sent over from Tokyo. He just sounded cool to be honest. I tried to imagine what must be going through his head being stuck in a room full of British people in their mid 20s. What did he think of everyone? Where was he staying? Did he know anyone here? Where was he going for dinner? Was he lonely? Did he miss his family? Was his brother who he previously thought dead actually alive and caught up in the suspected murder of a boss’s nephew that had subsequently caused a gang war that was threatening to tear Tokyo apart? That last one was particularly helpful to be honest.

Is Giri/Haji the first time you’ve written a whole original authored series? What was different about that? How was the pitching and development process?

Yeah. It’s the first time I’ve done a whole show that was my idea. The pitching process was actually quite easy. , who is the exec producer, had just set up a new company (). We’d worked together on for Channel 4 so she invited me to come and talk about other things we could do together. I had a little page of ideas and I think one of them was just ‘Japanese detective. Comes to London. Maybe has to find his brother??’ Anyway she liked that one so we developed it into something a little more substantial. Channel 4 commissioned a script but didn’t go for it in the end, luckily the 成人论坛 and Netflix really liked it so we made it with them.

I think the difference with doing an authored series is that you get to stay involved over the whole process and people actually listen to you. I've done films and sometimes there if you try and make suggestions about the edit everyone looks at you, genuinely surprised and often quite put-out that you're a) still in the room and b) trying to give an opinion.

What research did you have to do on the specific world of organised crime and the Yakuza, the Albanian mafia and other groups? Did you speak to specialists in the field?

We had researchers who checked the scripts to make sure that we were getting all the elements of Japanese culture right and weren’t, you know, being incredibly offensively wrong about everything, but we didn’t do masses of specific Yakuza research. We did a bit of reading on their eccentricities - they get involved in legitimate business as well as crime. Some of them even have websites. Stuff like that. Research is really important but also sometimes you just have to make stuff up.

You’ve talked about how Giri/Haji is also a tragic romance. What do you mean by that and how is this reflected in the story and characters?

The longer the show goes on the less it becomes about crime and cops and gangsters and the more it becomes about all of these messed up people who’ve found themselves in this unlikely situation. It sort of centres on these two weird quasi-families that find themselves thrown together in London and Tokyo. At the centre of that are Kenzo and Sarah (Takehiro Hira and Kelly Macdonald) who are these two broken, lonely, people. So there is a romantic element but it’s also very tragic, probably because my love life was a bit of a mess when I was writing it and if I can’t be happy I don’t see why my fictional characters should be either…

Giri/Haji goes out on 成人论坛 Two in the UK and Netflix internationally. Did you find it creatively freeing to know it would have an international reach? Do you think audiences today are more familiar with and accepting of multi lingual drama and subtitles?

Yeah it’s always nice to know that it’s going to have a chance to be seen by an international audience. I think audiences are more accepting of subtitles these days. There are shows like and and I just don’t know if it has the sort of ‘art house stigma’ it used to have. Or maybe it does and no one will watch this. Well we’ll find out anyway.

What’s the significance of The Legend of Giri/Haji poem? 

The marketing department asked me to write it. No, I’m joking, it’s very deep. I don’t know. I think a big challenge with this has been that there aren’t too many other shows we can point at and be like ‘if you liked that you might like this!’ Except that one episode of Hamish Macbeth where he goes to Kyoto. Anyway, its uniqueness is what drew us all to it but also we want to get across kind of what it’s about so people watch it. If we could just say “it’s Peaky Blinders meets Lost in Translation” or something, that’d be easier. Actually that’s not bad, we should have done that.

From your experience what would be your top tips to other budding screenwriters? What do you know now that you wish you could share with your younger self?

Just write loads. I think it’s the only way to get better. Everyone always says you should read lots of scripts but personally I’d rather read almost anything than a screenplay, they’re a f***ing nightmare. But I think reading good writing, in whatever form, makes you a better writer. You can learn more about language from reading than probably 90% of the TV scripts out there (including mine). But, I mean, do what you want really. I would say learn the very basic outline of what a three act structure is but don’t spend loads of money on screenwriting books or any of that sh*t. Screenwriting courses that cost lots of money should be avoided too, I think. Again, unless you fancy it.

The one thing I do think has been the biggest revelation to me is to write the stories that you’re interested in, rather than trying to work out what might be more likely to get made. Just working on something you love improves your writing more than any of those articles with titles like ‘Learn these 5 screenwriting secrets!’ ever could.

What’s coming up for you next?

I’m going to have a small existential crisis when the show comes out and then I’ll see what the next thing will be. Got some films and TV shows that I’m developing but I'm waiting to see if anyone will give me billions and billions of dollars to make them.

Giri/Haji begins on 成人论坛 Two and 成人论坛 iPlayer on Thursday 17th October from 9pm

As well as the big themes of the drama around power, politics and the media, what subjects does it deal with on a more human scale? Why are these important to you?

This is a story about a young man who suffers a catastrophic stroke and has to learn how to live again. In addition to the practical challenges of learning how to walk and talk again, we explore the question - if we had to start again, would we try to be the same person, or would we try to be someone else? In MotherFatherSon we're watching one of the most powerful young men in the country reduced to the level of a child, needing help to do even the most basic tasks. His parents played by Richard Gere and Helen McCrory become parents again, in that most basic and elemental sense. The son, played by a miraculous young actor called Billy Howle, is forced to reexamine every aspect of his life - from his relationships, to his career, to his very sense of self. It's a deeply emotional journey, one I witnessed when my close friend suffered a stroke.

The cast of MotherFatherSon is extraordinary. Did you know this when you were writing it?

I agree, the cast is extraordinary - across the board, in every role, a huge part of that is down to the casting director, , one of the best in the country. We hand the cast five page scenes and step back and allow them to take control, creating their own energy and rhythm, some of which remains entirely untouched in the final cut of the episodes. These scripts would be nothing without the cast. But no, I had no idea who we'd end up with, I just knew that if I wrote something that was entirely actor dependent, we'd find great people who'd want that challenge.

It's not a surprise to me that so many of our cast, like , have done so much astounding work in the theatre. And I think wanted to do those kinds of scenes too - he performs a two page monologue in episode two, and he's spellbinding, it's a masterclass. And is utterly fearless. So you'll be seeing some very famous actors while also discovering the next generation of acting superstars.

It’s a huge undertaking to write 8 hours of television. How do you plan out the whole story structure?

American Crime Story: The Assassination of Gianni Versace was nine hours, so this felt relatively achievable, particularly since we didn't start filming until five scripts were finished. We started filming on Versace with just three scripts completed. That process was so intense, but anyway, the point is, the process on MotherFatherSon felt relatively calm in comparison. I always knew the end points, for all the characters, they were always very clear, and I knew that each episode had to feel special, like a mini movie, so each episode has its own core. A lot of the planning was in my head.

Here at 成人论坛 Writersroom we notice that writers sometimes find it hard to move from theatre onto the big ideas and the size of the canvas needed to sustain a multi-episode TV series. Do you think your background as a novelist has helped with this?

I guess, I'm not sure, it's always amazing to me how much you can do with sixty pages, it's a vast canvas, so holding that in mind is very important, it doesn't mean you need to be epic in scale, but you need to have enormously complex and powerful characters if you don't have that scale.

Do you think you could ever work as a showrunner, leading a writers’ room?

Writer's rooms are complex places - the politics, the way work is divided up, they're supposed to make the task of writing eight or ten episodes easier, but they can often make it much more difficult. It helps if the writers all know each other and trust each other, that short cuts the process. I certainly wouldn't rule it out, that is how the system in the States tends to work.

Do you have a writing regime?

I start early, at about six, and finish by about two. I can rewrite in the evening, or watch cuts, but I can't write new material. I need to go for a walk at about two, it's important to get some distance from the words, and engage with the world.

Do you ever find yourself blocked and if so then how do you deal with that?

I've never had block exactly, I think I might have had a nervous breakdown once, and I don't mean that flippantly, but I wrote through it, writing was a way out.

How do you deal with script notes? 

I love good script notes, they make my script better, the challenge is being open to great feedback, but also knowing when to resist. Again, if you're working with great people they trust that when you refuse to do a note it's not because you refuse to make changes, it's not because you're endlessly stubborn, but because that particular note isn't right.

Is television now the best medium for “state of the nation” storytelling? 

Television is in a great place, for sure, it's telling stories no one has told before, it's pushing boundaries, and there's enormous freedom and appetite for risk.

Do you think you’ll return to novel writing?

I would only write a novel now, which couldn't easily be anything else.

What have you got coming up next?

I am writing a new original show for FX, the channel that made American Crime Story, so I'll be going back to LA to do that.

MotherFatherSon begins on Wednesday 6th March 2019 at 9pm on 成人论坛 Two and on 成人论坛 iPlayer

Read Tom Rob Smith's script for episode 1 of London Spy

Hugo - How did you decide which elements of the script needed animation? What ties them together?

(Hugo Blick) Each animated sequence is there because of the representation of trauma within that individual character’s experience. For example, in Episode 3 as Juliana Kabanga relates her experience in the massacre in the church there were two layers. Firstly the use of sign language, as Juliana hasn’t spoken since the trauma, and then the move into animation in which via visuals alone offer the viewpoint of her life.

At the end of this sequence she asks Michael (played by John Goodman) “Why ask me when I cannot speak?” and he replies “Because words would fail”. Words fail at this level of trauma.

Later in the series animation is used alongside narration – for example in Episode 7 where a voiceover of a character is explaining how and why this particular story needs to be told and what it’s about. It’s a long sequence which carries our understanding of the purpose of the story from beginning to end and in the middle it includes this incredible animation which feels almost like a different movement in a symphony. It prevents the narration from feeling linear and singular but instead makes it alive and different.

Hugo - How did you decide that would be the right partners for the project?

(Hugo Blick) I had written descriptive instructions in the script for the section where I wanted to used animation and then when we came to looking for partners for the animation – well Studio AKA are a well known company in the field with a desk bending under the weight of Baftas! - so they were invited to pitch as part of an open callout process. We had very varied types of responses from that process some of which felt very aggressive, which was what I was trying to avoid. Steve just intuited what I wanted from the script and in his pitch document he had exactly the right sense of the project. I responded to the beauty, elegance and simplicity of it. From then it was a simple job of saying “there’s the script and these are the timings”. I couldn’t be more grateful for the result. I always try and watch as things go out live and watching the broadcast of Episode 3 last night the animations felt like such a strength.

(Read the animated sequences in the script for & )

Steve - When did you become aware of the project and how did you get involved?

(Steve Small) The first time was when our managing director Sue (Goffe) came back saying that there were some scripts in which were looking for animation. Could we take a look and respond with our take. We received one or two scripts or long excerpts and a number of us here at the studio read them and took a pass at how we could respond.

Reading the scripts it was immediately apparent that everything was in place. Sometimes scripts are still exploratory but this was clearly very different, although with a lot of restraint. Certain key words were indicated in bold alongside actions. From these basic instructions it’s up to the animator’s interpretation to create the feel and tone.

Almost through its brevity and clarity the script gave rise to a certain style, moments and comments that were very particular and that alongside the nature of the content being described gave me an image in my mind of things we wanted to see and things that we didn’t. You got a sense of events happening to people where their daily context has been completely removed – that things that were normal to them have been entirely taken away. Because in animation you make the images first and then think about how to make them move afterwards it seemed clear to me to make images that were wrested from any context and to focus on what we could take away to leave the minimum necessary. Whilst it was a naturalistic look it was more about gaps and absence.

(Hugo Blick) For example when the mother turns her head and a segment has gone you know exactly what that means but it isn’t graphic it’s just a strange geometrical absence which is more emotionally empowered.

A number of people who went through the genocide have commented very positively about the representation of their experiences through the animations.

Steve – Had you worked on any projects like this before?

(Steve Small) This was new ground for me in terms of animation. I rarely like to bring a known approach to new material as the material should dictate what it wants. It’s always good to look for new techniques.

I used to hand draw animation and have experimented with working with charcoal, in Africa in fact. I had just discovered a series of brushes with some new software and on this project I felt like it was the first time I wasn’t fighting against software to achieve what I wanted. My initial images were nudging at things saying “maybe we could do this”.

Also what was key was the use of source live action to inform the animation. We had one day in a studio where the film crew made themselves available to film whatever I requested.

(Hugo Blick) Yes at the time that seemed very odd as we didn’t know what these shots were for. What we filmed felt totally contrary to what you would normally ask for on a live action set.

(Steve Small) That day was invaluable as an immediate trial and error of what would and wouldn’t work in the animations. We had people of the wrong sizes and but I just needed the shots to achieve a naturalistic feel. I never wanted to used ‘caricature’ that felt like poor representations of real people. There were some things we used as closely as possible but with others we couldn’t. We just gathered as much information as possible – you cannot have too much information before you start – for example about the shape of hands and how they differ etc. We were bringing together all that information - footage, photographic and video references.

Steve - Are there any particular moments that you feel represent well what you were trying to achieve?

(Steve Small) There’s a particular shot of a murderer turning around in the animation in Episode 3. The original intention was for him to be shrouded in darkness. We had some reference footage of people turning. In the end what we used is almost completely white. I asked Hugo if he was happy with this, “Do we need anything more?” and his response was “We don’t need anything more”.

Hugo – Do you think you would use animation again in a drama?

(Hugo Blick) I’m always trying to see how I can tell story differently and approach long form drama in a way that breaks the mould – just to offset the audience into an idea of what TV drama can be. Everyone says that this is a golden age of TV drama and I think that’s probably true, but it also means pushing the medium a bit further and pressing the boundaries.

I never want to do exactly the same thing again. But I would love to work with Steve again.

Read the scripts for the animated sequences in and

Watch now on 成人论坛 iPlayer

You started out in a band (Chumbawamba), how did you move from that to get into screenwriting? Did you always have the ambition to write and how did you get started?

was a gang, which is how I ended up in a band despite not being a musician. I loved being in the band and most of what went with it but deep down I knew I was a writer. I always wrote articles and stories – at one point I combined gigging with working full time writing news and features for Leeds Other Paper but I realised I wasn’t cut out to be a journalist. 

My stories always read like screenplays. The work of writers like , ,  and had a big effect on me. They made it conceivable that a working class woman from Burnley could be a writer too. After I hit 40 time was running out, when the band became more folk/acoustic I left to write.

The first few months after leaving I surfed the web a lot looking at package holidays and avoiding writing. I was terrified of finding out I had no talent. I was lucky enough to have savings but they weren’t going to last forever, so finally I knuckled down and started writing everyday, doing working hours, trying to read as many scripts as I could and everything on structure as I went. What I produced was terrible. I needed a deadline and the sense that somebody somewhere would actually read what I’d written to up the quality of the work. Then I saw were running a So You Want To Be A Writer course – it was partially funded by the 成人论坛 Writersroom and was run by . I applied and got on it. It was only one night a week but that course was really important to me, it gave me a reason to strive.

Do you remember getting your first commission and how that felt? Which shows did you write on after that?

The play I wrote, Foxes, as part of So You Want To Be A Writer was picked up by West Yorkshire Playhouse and given a run in the . I was elated; it was validation that they were willing to put on my play and pay me for it. But I wanted to write for TV and radio too, so I set about getting my work noticed by people whose work I admired by going through Course booklets and enrolling on courses.

I did a screenwriting course with and tutoring, and a radio course with and at the helm. And on those courses I wrote my socks off, which led to eventually being offered a chance to pitch for and get an episode of The Street with Jimmy and radio play commissions with Sue Roberts directing. On that first Arvon Course Jimmy gave me the best piece of advice I’ve ever had: “work four times as hard as everybody else.”

Writing’s an apprenticeship and starting so late I needed to apply myself with absolute rigour, I didn’t have time to mess around. I went on to work with Jimmy again on The Accused and Moving On. I also started to write on other shows like and , trying to learn from other writers as I went.

How did you get involved with Trust?

The show's Creator and co-Executive Producer  oversaw me on another TV project that ended up not coming to fruition. When Simon moved into TV he asked me to join the writers’ room.

Does Trust feel different from shows you’ve worked on before? Is it on a bigger scale?

What feels different about Trust is the ambition. Simon talked about it as having the range of a great novel: big stories, big themes that could narrow and go off at tangents.

What was the set-up for writing the show, was there a Writers’ Room to break the storyline? How was it decided who would write each episode?

The series was commissioned off the back of the pilot that Simon had written, that was followed by an initial writers' room over the summer of 2016 to plot the stories, themes and arcs. Who wrote what was just divvied out as we went.

You wrote a couple of the episodes and co-wrote on a couple of others – can you describe the differences in the process?

On a sole credit the episode goes through the hive mind process with people chipping in ideas and storylines, then I’d go away and write a treatment. More discussion, then I’d go off and write subsequent drafts with Simon and the producer, , giving notes. On a co credit, I’d sometimes come on as a writer after a couple of drafts, there’d be more discussion and story changes, which I’d enact. Sometimes it would be the other way round, I started episode 10 and Simon took it over after a couple of drafts.

What was it like working with Simon Beaufoy (Academy Award winner for Slumdog Millionaire, nominee for The Full Monty)? What did you learn from him as the series creator and lead writer?

I really enjoy working with Simon because he has the confidence to be egalitarian which means you’re never afraid to put in ideas or disagree. His ethos is that the best idea wins and that encourages some very creative situations. He’s a good study in being rigorous about the work and a decent human being. If I ever end up running a writers' room I’d try and follow his lead on being an encourager and moderator.

I learnt a lot from Christian Colson too, who had a very creative role. When a storyline wasn’t working Christian would come at it from an obtuse angle or flip a perspective. The pair of them had me reading TS Eliot and listening to Bob Dylan as a feel/tone guide to writing certain scenes. Who gets to listen to Dylan as homework? Trust was a gift.

Trust is based on true events. What research did you have to do? In this story could you say that truth really is stranger than fiction? How do you make these characters feel relateable?

We had a full time researcher, Grace Boyle who did brilliant work researching and interviewing. One of the things she did was go into and photograph the details of the region for us – we had pictures of road signs with bullet holes in them. We got the run down on Italian politics in the 1970’s and and its customs and we were supplied with an archive, biographies and series 'bible' which we supplemented by reading and watching everything we could get our hands on about the characters and the times. We also had an Italian director on episode 8, , who advised on the details.

When Simon introduced the story in the writers' room the question he asked was: Why wouldn’t the richest family in the world pay the ransom? That was the main question to answer and it wasn’t just meanness. The corrosive power of wealth was obvious but there were so many rich veins to tap within the Getty family and kidnappers. Relationships with parents, siblings and children are universal. Jealousy, fear and insecurity are things we’ve all felt, throwing extreme wealth into the mix can only heighten things.

You worked on the series through post-production too, is that unusual for a writer? What was your involvement at that stage?

I’ve never worked on a series through post-production before and it was a learning curve. Because of cost, episodes were filming simultaneously, sometimes there would be four directors working at once. It would have been too much for the lead writer to respond to all those directors’ notes alone so we worked out a system where I addressed some of the notes and my changes went to Simon for checking before being issued to set. I also rewrote the subtitle translations from episode 4 onwards so the dialogue flowed. Again, these went to Simon to check so he always had overall control and final say.

What would your advice be to someone starting out now and trying to get into screenwriting, perhaps as a change of career as you experienced?

Don’t let age be a barrier to starting a writing career. All those years of experience are an advantage. And look at writing as an apprenticeship because having talent isn’t enough; you’ve got to learn the craft. It’s almost impossible to get a start so you have to make every opportunity count. It’s not about networking, having a glass of wine with somebody never got anybody a job ever. It’s always about the work. If someone influential is going to read your script, don’t put it in front of them until it’s as good as it can be. And always be writing; don’t wait for a commission because there won’t be one without work to show. Write for TV, radio, and stage or street theatre but keep writing. Make good relationships with people so they want to work with you again.

My local theatre, is a brilliant producing house that makes theatre relevant to Leeds. They have been really supportive of my work and that’s given me a chance to keep writing plays. I love the gang mentality of the rehearsal room and the gig-like buzz of theatre but it also means I keep producing original work. And work leads to work, so be the person who has put the hours in. Even if it’s not your own TV show you are writing for, care about the characters and stories as if it was. Study the lead writer’s scripts, match the template but bring your own originality and verve.

Trust continues on 成人论坛 Two on Wednesday nights at 9pm. Catch up with the whole series now on 成人论坛 iPlayer

Watch an interview with Alice Nutter from our TV Writers' Festival in 2011

What is Black Earth Rising about?

Black Earth Rising is about (played by Michaela Coel). Through the specific prism of this woman’s fictional journey towards a deeply personal reconciliation with her past, we explore some of the legal, political and historical tensions that exist between the West and Africa in their mutual pursuit of international war criminals.

What was the inspiration for creating the series?

Where I’ve arrived isn’t the destination I expected. Some years back I looked into the as part of background research on The Honourable Woman. I consequently became interested in exploring how we pursue International War Criminals today.

I began with the , and was surprised to discover, at the time of my research, that most if not all formal indictments were against Africans – black Africans. This then drew me to the . Here not only is the ICC pursuing persecutors of the but I was further puzzled to find that it is also pursuing individuals who had helped bring the genocide to an end. Both sides were wanted by the ICC for alleged atrocities committed in the Democratic Republic of Congo after the genocide in the mid-2000s. I wanted to understand why apparent villains and heroes are being pursued. And the more I looked, the further I had to go.

What further research did you do once you came up with the idea before you started writing Black Earth Rising?

I travelled extensively through the African regions in which the story is set and equally through the corridors of legal power in London, Paris and The Hague.

Did you always have in mind for the part of Kate Ashby?

Not while I was writing but immediately after completion I happened to see her being interviewed and said to my wife, “That’s Kate Ashby.” And I was right, she is!

And as Michael Ennis?

John brought such intelligence and humour to Michael Ennis that I simply couldn’t imagine anyone else in the role

You are writer, director, producer and also act in Black Earth Rising. Which of these roles do you find the most challenging? And the most rewarding?

Each one is extremely demanding but the role of director and its complex and emotional demands pales when compared to staring at a blank page in the knowledge you’re going to have to fill out five hundred of them before anything else can happen. I've always felt acting was about quietening your mind, which given everything else that surrounds you on a film set came as a blessed relief.

Watch Black Earth Rising on 成人论坛 Two from Monday 10th September 2018 at 9pm and on 成人论坛 iPlayer

You have mentioned that family memoir is a very unusual genre for Indian writers, why do you think that is? What was the reaction like?

Sathnam Sanghera: Yes, there are very few Indian family memoirs. As a people we like to put our best face forward: anything difficult or dark like mental illness or emotional confusion is kept hidden away. You can see this desire to focus on the positive and upbeat in Bollywood. The reaction has been 95% positive. It was, in many ways, the perfect publishing experience. The whole thing began when, after a particularly painful break-up, I realised I had to integrate my two lives – the one in Wolverhampton, where I pretended I intended to marry someone of the same background as me, and the other in London, where I dated freely. It all worked out: my family have met girlfriends I have had since and would be delighted, I think, if I announced I was marrying a banana.

I wanted to write about our experience of severe mental illness, but without alienating anyone in my immediate family, and that worked out, too: my elder sister, who was diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens, asked for a chapter to be deleted, which I did, but has now read the book four times. Schizophrenia is such a difficult condition that sufferers can often feel shunned by society and their families. To have your story told can be a powerful, validating thing. Meanwhile, the public reaction has been a dream, with thousands of letters and emails I’ve had from people saying it made them understand their family better, and even get treatment for mentally ill relatives; from students studying it at school and university; and, most satisfyingly, from psychiatrists, who have said it has helped them understand the people they treat.

Did you ever think your book would be adapted for screen? When did you find out this was happening?

SS: It was optioned quite early on by a different company... but then we had a family bereavement and I felt I didn't want to put my family or myself through it. The new producers came along at a better stage, when time had passed and we all felt more resilient. It was still a surprise when it got green lit though - nothing ever actually seems to get made in film or TV. People just like to have lots of meetings.

Does it feel like the right time to tell this story on TV considering it features both racial and mental health issues?

SS: Yes. If anything, I feel that many stories like this should have already been told from a cultural perspective - how many versions of Pride and Prejudice do we need? But a dramatic manifestation of schizophrenia is more essential and even rarer... that was the main reason to get it made. I hope people learn that schizophrenia is not a death sentence, that it is an awful illness and it can wreck your life but people do recover and you can be a good parent, a good sibling, you can work. It doesn’t need to be the end of everything.

You’ve said in interviews that Sikh Punjabi culture, “is not very ‘talky’ and tends to be secretive. Now your family’s story is not only a book but also a TV drama – how did they react to that news?

SS: This is the question family memoirists get the most. Implicit in the enquiry is the assumption that there is such a thing as a unified and consistent reaction, when the fact is, every member of the family has felt differently about it at different times. Also, given it essentially deals with the worst things that have ever happened to me, I have found my feelings about it have varied wildly too. Indeed, I think we have as a family, between us, and over the decade between writing and broadcast, responded in almost every possible way. With the book one of my sisters got as far as page 40 and gave up, she said, because I “used too many big words”, providing an important and unexpected lesson for a writer: sometimes people who don’t read books just don’t give a toss. Now it is only telly though, she is suddenly intrigued. It's complicated - but they have all seen it and given their blessing. I couldn't have done it without their support.

Have you ever written scripts yourself? Were you tempted to adapt the book for screen?

SS: No. I wouldn't mind giving it a shot soon, but I didn't want to spend a single more minute dwelling on the painful material. I also didn't want to be the reason why it didn't get made.

How does it feel to hand it over to someone else? How much were you involved in the development of the script?

SS: I read the various versions when I had to and gave detailed notes - I thought it was a miracle of concision and warmth and empathy, but would go to bed for a day afterwards. So bloody painful. Even now, it kills me to watch it.

Is the drama written in both English and Punjabi?

SS: Yes - and I'm glad it is.. because this is how my family works. Many of my nephews and nieces don't speak Punjabi, my mum understands English but doesn't speak it fluently, and yet they somehow communicate. I'm not sure I really understand how it works!

Have you seen the finished drama and are you please with the result? What do you hope people take away from it?

SS: I'm thrilled. and have done an amazing job - many details have been changed, and it is very different from the book, but that was how it FELT to be there and go through it. I hope people learn something about schizophrenia, about how all families are ultimately the same, and about why it is important to talk to your parents and siblings, even though it is agonising. They may well turn out to be the most amazing people you will ever meet

Mick Ford

How did you get involved in adapting for 成人论坛 Two? Were you already aware of the book?

Mick Ford: No - the first I knew of Sathnam's book was when , the producer, and asked if I’d like to read it - which I did - and loved it - it’s a fantastic read - it’s funny, it’s moving, it’s angry, it's investigative, it’s revelatory - truly one of the most rewarding books I’ve ever come across - because as well as letting me into a world I knew nothing about, it was also, somehow, relationship-wise, completely familiar and recognisable - quite a bizarre experience - anyway, I really wanted a crack at adapting it - and, luckily, they gave me the job.

The Boy with the Topknot depicts a particular world at a particular time, did you have to do a lot of research or consult many people?

MF: I didn’t need to do any research: I had the book; Sathnam’s memoir - and I was re-telling his story, from his point of view - so I didn’t want any other input - I wanted it to remain as pure as possible - and I knew (if we got that far) that Sathnam would eventually read the script, react, give notes and voice any objections - which, when the time came, he did in spectacular detail!

How does working on adaptations differ from creating your own original work? What are the biggest challenges of adapting someone else's work?

MF: An adaptation is almost the exact opposite of creating an original piece yourself. With an adaptation you start off with a ready-made narrative and characters. The skill is in deciding how to re-tell that story - in this case, within a one-off 90 minute film - which is hard when the source material is 320 pages long - you have to somehow distill it - and, in this case, tame it because Sathnam’s memoir spins off in all directions; its time frame darts around; it veers off to explore historical events in detail - it looks at past generations of the family in India - it’s a huge book in that respect - a wealth of wonderful detail - and we had 90 minutes.

So: it’s deciding what to retain, what to leave out, and what to make more concise or change - for example, in the book, Sathnam has lots of girlfriends; none of whom ever get to meet his family. I decided he should have one girlfriend, Laura, which I hoped would solidify the notion that the Sathnam character really was living two lives.

One of my main concerns throughout was the fact that the characters I was putting into the script were real people, alive and living in Wolverhampton today. Yes, Sathnam had already written about them, the book was published and out there - but for anyone to access their story they have to read the book, they have to invest their time in it. I was very aware that a TV drama would put their lives on show to be casually viewed - so I wanted to do their lives justice - and the fact that, I understand, Sathnam and his family are happy with the film makes me very relieved.

You are also , at what point did you begin writing too - was it as a result of acting or had you always written side by side with acting? Do you find the two disciplines complement each other?

MF: I started writing when I was a student - and was a musical director before I took up acting - so my working life has had many different phases - all of which, I think, have helped me understand how dramas work. Certainly being an actor helps when it comes to empathising with the characters you create - perhaps it also helps with the dialogue; though that’s the last part of the jigsaw - it’s the story that unlocks everything and requires the most work.

Oddly, I can’t combine acting and writing - they both occupy my head too much and get in the way of each other.

What was the process for writing the script in English and Punjabi?

MF: I learnt Punjabi - no - I simply wrote “in Punjabi” before the lines in question - and, later on, they were translated. The amount of Punjabi we’d have was always a matter of debate - we didn’t want 70% of the film to be in subtitles - on the other hand Punjabi is spoken in the home - and I think , the director, has got the balance spot on.

What advice would you pass on to someone starting out now on a screenwriting career? Has anyone shared any advice with you that you've found particularly useful?

MF: One way or another, whatever the genre, write about what you know - and learn to collaborate. If you can’t, write novels.

On Topknot we’ve had a wonderful experience - Nisha and Lynsey have made it feel like everyone’s been pulling together to make the same programme - and there it is - whatever anyone else thinks - what’s been produced is incredibly close to what we had in mind seven years ago when we started out on this project. That’s a rare thing. That’s collaboration.

What was it about the project that attracted you?

The material was challenging, the main character - Andrew Cunanan - is intriguing and human in his early years, but gradually descends into addiction and murderous madness, so the challenge was how to structure the story because once Cunanan starts killing he can't be the centre of the episodes.

Was the fashion world one you were already familiar with?

I knew a little, I guess. I read everything that had ever been written on . I was surprised by how little attention and scrutiny he'd been given, considering he was such an amazing man.

How did you carry out research?

Maureen Orth is the journalist, so she provided the bulk of the research, I also read through all the FBI files, and as I said, everything that been written about Versace. I also travelled to San Diego and went to all the most important places in Andrew Cunanan's life, just to get a feel for them.

During the writing of the drama did you warm to the principal characters, as you found out more about them? Did your preconceptions change?

The most unusual aspect of this show is that the victims are the central characters, they are the heart and soul of the piece. I have to admit, before I read the book all I knew of the case was that Versace had been shot on the steps of his Miami mansion, it's remarkable to me that the entire story was in shadow. Those other victims were extraordinary people, their stories deserved to be told.

How different did it feel writing your first true crime story? How much did you have to fill in the gaps of existing material or ‘dramatise’ events?

There are gaps, but any dramatisation was only ever done to support the larger truths. We all knew that , we all felt that very strongly, so we needed to figure out how to convey that innocence to the audience, to show why David left with Andrew.

Do you think the title of the show represents what it is really about?

I actually didn't choose the title so I can't address that question but I don't think the title of the non fiction source material would have been right.

We understand the Versace family are not happy with the show. Has this been very disappointing and how have you dealt with this?

Their position is the same as they had with the source material - their statement is very similar. In the end, this is a celebration of an amazing man, it was a tragedy that Versace was taken from the world, both from his family, and from a creative perspective. We set out to contrast why one man was so great, and one man became so despicable.

Do you think your background as a novelist helps or hinders screenwriting?

Both! There are advantages and disadvantages, but mostly advantages I think. This series plays a long game, the lie that Andrew tells Versace in Episode One, seems like a piece of nonsense, but we reveal how much truth there is in it, how much sadness, in Episode Eight.

Is it very different working as a screenwriter in the USA from the UK? Are there key differences?

At the moment writers are considered more central to the process in the US than in the UK, but the UK model is in the process of changing.

What have you got coming up next?

A new show for 成人论坛 Two, called MotherFatherSon, an eight part original show.

Watch The Assassination of Gianni Versace - American Crime Story on 成人论坛 Two on Wednesdays at 9pm and on 成人论坛 iPlayer

There has been a fair amount of film and television drama about the two formative events of the early century - the invasion of Iraq and the 2008 financial crisis. But of the third great challenge - the waves of migration prompted by war, poverty and fresh persecution - we have seen much less.

The 21st century looks as if it will be a time of mass movements, and corresponding mass resentment of mobility. It looks to me as if privileged societies are urgently looking for ways of protecting their wealth, and of keeping the poor outside their boundaries. For all our talk of encouraging initiative and enterprise, foreign entrepreneurs who travel the Mediterranean by boat seem especially unwelcome. Donald Trump’s proposal for a wall with Mexico and the UK’s vote for Brexit are both evidence of attitudes hardening in the West towards aspirational newcomers.

As a viewer, I have always loved drama like , and , which succeeded in moving television fiction into new areas. At its start, may seem to be familiar. After all, it does involve a police investigation. But I hope you will notice the absence of any of the usual apparatus of police procedurals. I can promise you there are no shots of computers or white boards. After an illegal immigrant is shot in the opening moments, I am much more interested in exploring how the death of one individual, who has lived out of the sight of respectable society, resonates and reaches into various interconnecting lives.

One of the common paradoxes of our time is that even as we lose faith in public institutions, so our belief in private virtue holds steady. Collateral takes us through various British institutions - the police, the Church, politics, the army, and, most especially, through our weird and shaky detention system - and asks why so many organisations seem deliberately structured in a way which prevents individuals being allowed to exercise their own judgements and standards. Why are we feeling disempowered?

I have come late in life to writing my first episodic television, but I was guided by two expert producers, and s. When joined to direct, then we began to observe a strange phenomenon. Not a single actor turned us down. We got our first available choice for every role. This seemed to us evidence that if you seek to annexe new subject matter on television everyone will want to join you in the endeavour. By the time Netflix allied with the 成人论坛, and , , r, and were foreground in SJ’s gritty, fleetingly beautiful urban landscapes, I was pretty much in TV heaven.

I hope you enjoy Collateral too.

David Hare

What was the origin of your writing partnership? Is this the first thing you’ve worked on together? How does it work, do you actually sit and write together or work separately on different parts of the script and then edit the other’s work? Do you bring different strengths?

We’ve been friends for decades and our writing partnership evolved naturally because we’re passionately interested in so many of the same things: writing, teaching, history (especially Hollywood history!). More than that we love spending time together. We collaborated early on with a few ideas for TV shows and worked together on a play, but then mostly went our separate ways for a few decades. Michael taught at and wrote a few screenplays that almost got made on his own. Jaffe primarily did stand up as part of a pioneering trio of comics called .

In terms of our process, the best answer is all of the above. We get together and talk…and talk…and talk, working on increasingly detailed outlines of our story. Then one of us usually writes a first draft and we start sending it back and forth. If we’re working on more than one story at a time, which is more and more the case these days, we can literally be emailing drafts of outlines and scenes to each other from across the room, across the city, or across the ocean (as Michael teaches theater in London every summer). In terms of our strengths, we’re both pretty seasoned at this point and, in many ways, have absorbed each other’s strengths and points of view. Perhaps Michael is more focused on the overall story. Maybe Jaffe is happiest finding the drama in individual scenes. But it definitely goes back and forth depending on circumstances and, at any given time, one of us can be the midwife while the other is giving birth. But then, of course, we raise the baby together, polishing and perfecting.

What attracted you to this story specifically?

We were both at a point in our lives when we only wanted to write about subjects that clearly interested us and few things interest us more, as said above, than Hollywood history.

So that led us to Bette and Joan, two of our favorite stars from the Golden Age of Hollywood. At first Jaffe had the idea to write about two women like Bette and Joan, two middle-aged stars who have competed with each other for decades who make their comeback in the same film. And it was Michael’s idea to simply write about the real Bette and Joan. And when we realized that our research would primarily be sitting on a couch and watching all of their best films …well …we simply dived right in.

Is it correct that Feud: Bette and Joan began life as a movie script? What was its journey to an 8 part TV series? Can you explain the to a UK audience and how it was picked up by ?

Yes, we originally wrote Feud as a screenplay called Best Actress which got a lot of positive attention early on from agents, producers and especially from an amazing list of actresses who wanted to play the parts. In 2009 the script made it onto a top spot on the Black List, which is a list of the year’s best unproduced screenplays as rated by producers, agents and managers. , Brad Pitt’s company, read the script and they thought it would be perfect for Ryan Murphy who at the time was looking to a feature film. But this was also the year Murphy’s TV show became a phenomenon leading Ryan to work primarily in television.

Three years ago Ryan decided that the best way to tell the story in Best Actress was to keep the basic structure of the screenplay but expand it into eight hours of television. At this point we were brought on as producers and writers and began offering ideas for subplots, many of which we wanted to include in the original screenplay but didn’t have the space, like the character of , an unapologetically gay character actor who co-starred with Bette and Joan in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

Is it unusual in the US for a TV series to be ‘authored’ rather than the product of a Writers’ Room?

We believe so, especially with the kind of super talented head writers and show runners currently working in television. Often the plots and subplots are worked out well in advance - whole seasons, multiple seasons! - and then the episodes are farmed out to writers whose job it is to faithfully dramatize the original vision.

Did you have a meeting of minds with Ryan Murphy on the project?

Yes, it was obvious when we met that we all had a very strong connection to the material and we were convinced that Ryan would protect our vision. It was important to us that whoever made it felt strongly about the theme: that it’s tragic how Hollywood tosses aside women at a certain age, no matter what their previous contributions have been to the industry.

You both work teaching screenwriting. What about the story of Feud: Bette and Joan matches the advice you pass on to students? Does it contain those elements that you tell your students make up a successful screenplay?

Yes, thankfully! Mainly we want our students to write about something they love. Characters in our screenplays become our companions so we better like them and want to know more about them! We also emphasize how characters need to have high stakes, and what makes Bette and Joan so fascinating is that they are both fighting for their dignity, their legacy, their futures, and their self-esteem. In other words: their lives. For them, this is the equivalent of life and death. They were also witty, daring and, at moments, perverse. In short, we can’t take our eyes off them!

How do you make this story interesting for people who may not know anything about Bette Davis and Joan Crawford? What about it resonates for today’s audience, especially in the light of recent revelations of abusive behaviour in the industry?

We purposely wrote our original screenplay to hold people’s attention even without ever having heard about Bette and Joan. Our model at the time was the movie, with , which worked so well even if you didn’t know or care much (as many Americans don’t) about Elizabeth II. The stakes were so high and the story so specific (as well as often quite funny), it didn’t much matter how much you knew walking into the theater. In fact, some of the people who liked Feud best were people who knew very little about Bette and Joan, but became fascinated by what they actually did, like Joan’s actively campaigning against her co-star when Bette was nominated for an Oscar and Joan wasn’t. So, part of the fun of watching Feud is learning some history, especially when the facts are stranger than fiction. And what these women faced, particularly from the powerful men who did all they could to use and manipulate them, is astounding. Hopefully that’s a pattern that will soon be history.

You have an amazing cast – were you involved in the casting or have to fight for these actresses to be involved?

Ryan mentioned some names when we first met. There were some great actresses who wanted to play Bette, but ’s name was always at the top of his list. read the script a little later, but she completely latched onto the idea of playing Joan. And in the years when we weren’t sure if the story was going to be produced, Jessica was the one who kept the project front and center. Needless to say, we were over the moon about all the casting – ,  - all great. We were really excited about , who we’ve admired from way back in . We were blown away when she some time back on American television. And we adore , who plays Mamacita, and , who plays Pauline, both of whose work we knew well from their stage work in New York, where we live.

What does telling a story as a drama add that isn’t possible in a documentary?

Oh, so much! As writers of historical fiction - as opposed to die-hard historians - our guideline is not what happened, but what could have happened – and what about our characters helped make it happen. Naturally there are guidelines imposed by the known events and the personalities involved. Drama is often described as the lie that tells the truth. In historical fiction, the lie simply needs to be plausible. It has to feel like it could have happened. And if we add to our story a little narration – and narrators aren’t always reliable – we have a pretty wide berth to re-create all the delicious scenes – the private moments, the confrontations - that might have gone unrecorded.

What have you got coming up next? Do you have more stories from classic Hollywood?

You bet and some of our projects take place in Britain! We’re currently working on a project about the turbulent monumental romance between and . It’s an amazing story about two of the most talented and celebrated actors in the twentieth century who fell madly in love and stuck with each other for two decades of extreme highs and lows.

We’ve also completed a screenplay on , who was a handsome, funny, sexy leading man in the 1920’s and 30’s – and was openly gay. And we wrote a script that’s a very unconventional, but honest look at . 

Something else we’re working on is a screenplay about , the brilliant warm-hearted singer who shot to stardom as a member of the and then spent the last few years of her life trying to find her own voice as an entertainer. By all accounts, she finally found that voice, “making her own kind of music” during her last public performance, a two-week gig at the London Palladium, but then dying tragically the next day. See truth really is stranger than fiction. We’ll keep you posted on the casting, and needless to say, we’re dying to get to London to do a little research!

 (who describes how he met Bette Davis)