成人论坛

I hold to my belief that it is possible to identify with being both Cornish & English as the history of the nation we now live in is so closely woven together that in a modern context I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 that easy to distinguish the definitions any more and can lead to very long philosophical debates. I usually get round it by referring to myself as British although maybe I鈥檓 now European.

I worry that such a distinction invariably leads to isolationism that will not help Cornwalls future. It causes a 'them and us' situation with people having to choose camps rather than celebrate our shared history and create a better future for Cornwall that is able to become a viable and prosperous part of the UK and Europe.

As far as I am aware the current state of the governments proposal on devolution is very encouraging for us and far from trying to legislate Cornwall out of existence. The white paper, which did not address the Cornish Question, but laid out the framework for consultation on devolution, has given us a real opportunity for change. The response by the Cornish electorate through the petition has showed overwhelming and unprecedented support for a government consultation process and along with the constitutional report from Mark Sandham at UCL has started to make the government take the 鈥楥ornish Question鈥� seriously.

Mark 鈥� With reference to the Cornish language you will find that the Bryothonic (British) tongue was spoken across most of Britain before the arrival of the Romans and survived with many Latinisations by them. It was the Saxons who used the word wealas (most likely meaning foreigners) to refer to any inhabitants who were not like them. From which is derived the name of Wales and the Wall of Cornwall. After Wessex鈥檚 victory at Deorham around 577 the Britons of the West Country were cut off from those of Wales and as such the languages evolved separately into Modern Welsh & Cornish. The bryothonic languages would have survived in pockets spoken throughout the West Country until being superseded by the Saxon tongue as Wessex expanded. Both what you call West Country Brythonic and Cornish are separate languages derived from a Common root. Like any language it continuously evolves and once speakers are cut of from each other the language will diverge into separate languages. The Cornish that was spoken in say the 10th Century would be very different to that of the 17th Century, which does lead to confusion in finding an accurate modern pronunciation as it is based on the interpretations of texts and manuscripts from different periods. I do not know of any surviving texts or manuscripts from any other Bryothonic tongue so as such would assume it would be very difficult to resurrect this language.
Pete

Tim ... yes, we should get together to publish some useful ammo. I'm sure the Executive Committee of the Cornish Constitutional Convention might welcome that sort of practical support. But we should check they haven't already published it (eg through their website) before reinventing that sort of wheel! As for the housing policies you've suggested, those sort of measures might make a lot of sense. They are partly the responsibility, currently, of District Councils, and would remain so under either the Government's proposals for a Regional Assembly (whatever its boundaries) or the Convention's more powerful Senedh Kernow. I like the idea of the Stannary Parliament altering the Duchy's land rights and priveliges, but I suspect it might also be necessary to change primary legislation in the UK Parliament, with or without devolution of power to a Senedh Kernow. Tell us more, Tim ... how would the Stannary process work?
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth

Steve, I'm glad my response to you evidently hit home! But if only you were as intelligently responsive as the 成人论坛!!!! After repeated 'insults' from me (as you call them) what were in fact reasoned criticisms of the introductory wording to this part of the 成人论坛 Cornwall website have been listened to by the editorial team ... hence the new wording. I am very grateful to the 成人论坛 staff involved for considering my suggestions (and no doubt those of others). The new wording is a big improvement, but has so far not noticeably raised the level of debate here ... perhaps it will, in time.

Steve, your selective quotation of my previous postings out of context serves to reverse their meaning. That is a fascist journalistic technique, in my humble opinion, Steve, and I would be grateful if you would desist! I too disapprove of racism, as a matter of fact, whether that be anti-Cornish racism by people from England or anywhere else, or, indeed, anti-English racism by Cornish or any other individuals. As I have said before, in my experience of living in or near Cornwall over many years at different periods of my almost 50 years of life so far, I have observed many more examples of the former than of the latter. This is mainly due, perhaps, to the relative numbers of racists compared to total population on each side of the Tamar (the proportion is probably very similar, but you don't get many Cornish skinheads compared to the English variety, and likewise respective memberships of the British National Party are probably very different in terms of absolute numbers).

Steve, I accept that you do not believe you are being racist, but you are evidently oblivious to the racist offence your own previous postings could have caused to the millions of people of Cornish ethnicity around the world (however few may have read your words or mine!). As for poor old Lord Howe, of course his speech was his own, even if carefully timed together with 'the grandees' (that's a good old piece of seventeenth century English political jargon, isn't it Steve, like the word 'agitator', 'quaker' and 'ranter' ... both you and I seem all too capable of fitting that last category!). Or maybe you didn't actually hear what Howe said at the time back in 1990 or whenever it was, or observe his body language on the floor of the Commons? His words came from the heart, and that is why they were so deadly to Thatcher's political survival. We all owe a huge debt to that particular dead sheep (Geoffrey Howe) I would say!!!

As for English citizenship, Steve, there is no such thing in law. Identity and ethnicity are different from legal citizenship, of course. I was indeed born in Somerset of a Welsh mother and an Australian father, and that makes me a British citizen but not necessarily English. I stopped identifying myself with the English under the elective dictator Thatcher, when during those eleven long years, part of which I spent in Scotland, she convinced me I was not one of 'THEM' (i.e. I was not one of those she infamously claimed as 'One of us'). Oh, and by the way, my wife is German, and my first wife was the British-born daughter of a Berlin Jew ... my two daughters had an Anzac great grandfather in one trench at Passchendaele and a great grand uncle in a Pomeranian grenadier regiment in the opposite trench. Half of that Berliner's family were gassed in the death camps a couple of decades later, just as my grandfather's trench gassing is the only reason I was born in the UK at all. So I have some direct family experience of what happens when racism is applied in practice by a few more than a tiny handful of nutters.

I would certainly not claim to be Cornish other than by adoption, and that is a matter for the Cornish-born themselves to judge, not you, Steve!!!
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth

Tim, I agree about ending the tax breaks on second homes. In the Caradon area, at least in my village, they already have a scheme whereby any new housing development has to include a certain number of low-cost starter homes. Housing Trusts like Midas and the Guinness Trust provide a percentage of lower priced homes. What we really need is for the council to be able to build houses for council house tenants again. At the moment there are government restrictions preventing enough council houses being built. Your third point I agree with, but what does the fourth point achieve? I鈥檓 missing the point there somewhere, what has the Duke done that annoys you?

Holiday homes certainly contribute to the housing problem in an area like Cornwall, but so do people coming into Cornwall from wealthier areas who are willing to pay higher prices for the property. If local councils were able to build houses intended for locals to buy, and they were able to keep prices down, it may ease the situation. However, realistically that would be difficult to manage. I remember several years back Caradon District Council bought a load of land in Cawsand, which was intended to go to locals at a cheap rate so that they could build their own houses on it. Most of the land was sold to outsiders and now there are huge multi-bedroomed holiday homes there. It did not help the housing problem one bit. It would have been better if the Council had built there own houses on the land.

The main problem with the lack of housing is that there are not enough Studio apartments or single bedroom houses built. Again in my village, there are some council flats that are used for older residents that consist of a decent size double bedroom and a smaller single bedroom (box room). This type of housing would be ideal for young couples and, in a building that takes up the area of two normal, semi-detached, three-bedroom houses you can get four such flats.

At the moment the emphasis is on building high value, large properties which make high profits. This needs to change and we have to start building low cost housing again.
Phil, T Cornishman in Oman

- I don't think tackling just one issue, i.e. housing will have the required affect in regenerating Cornwall as a viable region. While it would be of benefit in alleviating the current housing problem it would not be of any long-term benefit unless used as part of a wider policy to regenerate the economy and fortunes of Cornwall.

That is where I think the idea of a responsible devolved decision making assembly as put forward by this discussion board would be of benefit to the region. Instead of coming up with individualist polices from the numerous bodies based around the country a legislative assembly with the power to invest the objective one funding and gain a fairer share of UK funding resources would be more effective in once again making Cornwall a viable and prosperous region within the UK.

I am completely behind the idea of a devolved government and would hate to see this opportunity squandered by confusing the need for regeneration and change with a separatist agenda. As for the idea of the majority of Cornishmen not being able to identify with both Cornwall & England I would cast your mind back to the world cup. Anyone go to the pub or wonder why the St Piran flags were red & white during June?
Pete

Victor, a few years ago people in Wales and Scotland were considered idiotic and romanticists. However, today they have their own devolved assemblies and governments. As stated many times before, Cornwall contributes much more to the British coffers in taxes than it receives back, so it should not be a burden on the British economy. Anyway, what if it were?

It would only mean that we get back some of the money that past British governments have plundered from us. So, fair鈥檚 fair. I agree with you though, that defacing road signs does not add anything to the beautification of our county.

As for the 鈥渋diotic notion of Cornish independence鈥� we will all have to just wait and see. The time is rapidly approaching when people are going to have to listen, because the voice is gradually getting louder and louder. Ridicule it if you will, but the Cornish will only take so much abuse before they act.
PhilT, Cornishman in Oman

Phil T is a mine of valuable hard facts as ever. It is very sad that civil servants in the Deputy Prime Minister's office insist on ignoring such evidence, and that they believe they know best ... and that, according to them, 'Cornwall is too small' to be a region in its own right for the purposes of electing its own assembly with new powers devolved from Westminster (under current Government proposals). You, Phil, and others have adduced plentiful evidence to the contrary.
It is sadder still that Candy Atherton MP, the only Labour member in an otherwise all Lib Dem set of MPs for Cornish constituencies, agrees with those civil servants (none of whom, I believe, are Cornish, or know Cornwall very well if at all). Mind you, as Andrew George MP has pointed out, Ms Atherton is the Government's representative in Cornwall, whereas the four other MPs with seats West of the Tamar are Cornwall's representatives to the Government!
Those of us in the Falmouth/Camborne Constituency, whichever way we voted last time and before, need to bear this in mind at the next general election.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth

There is a lot to be said for being proud of your heritage. There is, however, very little merit in greater devolution for Cornwall, just to feed the egos of a few self-serving Cornish politicians and a few Cornish people with an inferiority complex. Cornish taxpayers like me would be asked to foot the bill when members of a Cornish assembly decided to surround themselves with the trappings of devolved power. The farce over the Scottish Parliament building is a case in point. From an estimated cost of 拢40 million, the final costruction bill will be 拢400 million. Now, I'm not suggesting a Cornish assembly would cost anything like that, but the trend of devolved bodies is always to spend our money in the name of 'greater representation'. Well, no thanks. I'll stick to being represented as I am. And spare me the cod-statistics showing how Cornwall could support itself without outside 'interference'. Common sense will prevail and the idiotic notion of Cornish ! independence will remain a pipe dream. As for the morons vandalising the tourist signs in Cornwall, if you want to make your beloved County look like a slum-ghetto, carry on.
Victor, Launceston

Tim, the following link will put you onto the Luxembourg government statistics site, which I think is the most relevant to Cornwall鈥檚 interests considering the similarities to our situations:- http://statec.gouvernement.lu/html_en/statistiques/ portrait_economique/index.html
The following are some extracts from that site:- Employment
鈥淭here has been very strong growth in internal employment, which includes the borderers from the adjacent countries, but excludes the officials and agents of the international institutions established in Luxembourg. Between 1985 and 1994, 46300 new jobs were registered (+28.8%). The Luxembourg labour market is characterised by the major role played by foreigners who now form more than 50% of the labour force working within the territory of the Grand Duchy. In 1994, nearly 25% of Luxembourg's internal labour force were frontier workers, of whom about 5% from Germany, 12% from France and 8% from Belgium, foreign residents represented 28% and only 47% were residents of Luxembourg nationality. Over the past twenty years, nearly the entire increase in internal employment has been met by the increase in the number of foreign workers, immigrants or borderers. It is they who have enabled the additional demand for labour to be satisfied over the past ten years, while the number of nationals available to the labour market has remained more or less stable. There are two categories: residents and frontier workers. The latter play a vital role in the vigorous growth of employment. From 16 100 in 1985, their number swelled to 51 300 in 1994, i.e. a leap of 218%.

Rise of unemployment
The number of unemployed registered with the Employment Office, which is traditionally low, rose worryingly in 1994 and 1995, with the number of people affected exceeding the 5000 mark. At nearly 3%, the unemployment rate has reached an exceptionally high level for Luxembourg.

Causes of Deaths
The demographic trend in the past 25 years may be broken down into several periods: 1970-1975: Although deaths exceeded births in number, the population grew considerably on account of a massive influx of foreigners. 1976-1985: With births and deaths practically equal in number and low net immigration, the population only increased slightly. 1986-1995: A rise in the birth rate, a fall in the mortality rate and a hefty increase in arrivals from abroad resulted in a resumption in population growth which is gathering pace (during the period 1990-1995, the total annual growth rate is around 1.5%).

Gradual development of the system of social protection
In Luxembourg, as in most countries, the social security system was built in several stages. It has been extended with regard to both the socio-professional categories and the risk groups covered. The relatively long time taken for the integration of the self-employed professions should however be noted. The most recent major innovation was the Law of 26 July 1986 introducing the minimum wage, a mechanism to guarantee resources. It consists of a supplementary benefit paid up to a threshold of resources determined according to the composition of the household. This benefit is awarded irrespective of the causes of the situation of need.

Social security accounts
For the time being, current revenue exceeds expenditure. The significance of social security revenue and expenditure in relation to GDP has increased continually over the years. Today, the deductions from GDP reach a proportion in the vicinity of 30%. Public contributions play a growing role in financing the system. At present, they account for 40% of the resources, with employees' and employers' contributions forming just over half. The functional distribution of the social security benefits shows the dominance of the pension scheme, which accounts for only just under 50% of the entire benefits. With about quarter of the total, health insurance comes second. Comparing the public contributions to the ordinary expenditure under the government budget, the steady growth in the place taken by social security in public finance becomes obvious. Nearly half the ordinary budget is absorbed by social security.鈥� The above are direct quotations from the Luxembourg site and as you see, they are not too bad. I particularly like the sentence 鈥淎t nearly 3%, the unemployment rate has reached an exceptionally high level for Luxembourg鈥�. There are plenty more facts on this site which make interesting reading.
Phil T, Cornishman in Oman

I believe that the equivalent web-site to this on 成人论坛 Devon has shown that the majority of respondents would prefer greater devolution to a Devonian assembly above all others. A significant minority propose a Cornwall/Devon (Kernow/Dewnans) assembly, and certainly my view is that this is preferable to the current 7 county mega-region. Davyth may be interested to know that there are suggestions that the Celtic language of Devon was somewhat seperate and distinct from that of Cornwall - for whatever reason. I can refer you to a booklet publication by Jospeh Biddulph - titled "An Introduction to Westcountry Brythonic (Old Devonian)" which can be ordered from the author in Kembry/Cymru. It is based on the Celtic language of Devon at the beginning of the 10th Century.
Paul Turner, Adelaide, Oz

Steve Garrett, I have read the EDP mandate and you are correct. I can agree with a great deal of what they are saying. Most of their mandate is what is included in the Mebyon Kernow mandate and it is what MK wants for Cornwall.

There are one or two things that I could not agree to though, for instance the drug policy. Also, the sentence 鈥淲e favour鈥︹�︹�reater autonomy for Cornwall鈥� is not convincing enough for me. There is no guarantee that it would be enthusiastically pursued and, why should Cornwall expect better treatment from a government, whose origins are from the country that has refused to assist us for decades in the past. Cornwall would still be the poor relation on the fringes of the nation. Other than that, it all sounds wonderfully utopian. I wonder how all these ideas will be paid for and whether the EU would agree to having their powers reduced. I am not a socialist but most of these views are socialist. I think Cornwall has more of a chance of devolution than England has of having their own parliament. So I will continue to support a Cornish Assembly because, for me, it represents a more realistic and favourable approach than the EDP. I continue to feel that Cornish affairs would be better handled by people who reside in Cornwall. However, all that said, I thank you for offering us the opportunity to consider other alternatives. This is the kind of information most of us are looking for.
Phil T, Cornishman in Oman

I was not born in Cornwall but I love the County with a passion, and I would dearly like to see a Cornish Assembly to run this beautiful land, asI think the County would be run by people who would care for all people and only have all our best interests at heart.
Mary, St Agnes

I thought some of you might be interested in some comparisons: Areas of some countries:
Cornwall - approx. 3550 sq. km
Hong Kong - approx. 2990 sq. km
Bahrain - approx. 620 sq. km
Luxembourg - approx. 2600 sq. km
Singapore - approx. 620 sq. km
Monaco - approx. 2 sq. km
Malta - approx. 316 sq. km

Populations of some countries:
Cornwall - 501 000
Monaco - 32 000
Malta - 400 000
Bahrain - 595 000
Brunei - 315 000
Iceland - 276 000
Luxembourg - 422 000
Qatar - 579 000

There are many more like this out there in the real world. With these facts in mind it is obvious that physical area or population size does not necessarily need to be a hindrance to self-determination.
PhilT Cornishman in Oman

I totally agree - Cornwall should at the minimum be recognised as a constituent country of the United Kingdom, and as a consequence have its own National Assembly.

I also believe that the most constructive thing to do if the South West Regional Assembly is forced upon us, is to deny its legitamacy in Cornwall. This could be achieved by all Cornish voters and Politicians refusing to participate in the S. W. Assembly.

2 other Points - (1) Gary - I don't think Cornwall should harbour the desire to build an Empire, which would be the consequence of incorporating Plymouth. The TAMAR is the geographical and cultural border.

(2)Bindatek - I am not a Christian, and I understand your concern - but please do not be unrealistic - the cross is used in many European Countries flags. And the St Piran's Cross flag is universally recognised by other Celtic countries..
Jon, Helston