成人论坛

THIS听TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人论坛 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

IN TOUCH 鈥� Colliders 鈥� Tactile Hadron, Pedestrians and 鈥楢鈥� Boards

TX:听 14.11.2017听 2040-2100

听

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 CHERYL GABRIEL

听

White

Good evening. 听Right 鈥� tell the truth now, which of you really understands the principle behind the Hadron Collider? 听Let鈥檚 not always see the same hands. 听So, does this help?

听

Clip

So what I鈥檓 going to pass you first Derek is a rather large ball.听 So what we鈥檙e going to try and do is get some sort of sense of scale of these particles.听 So just how feel how big this ball is 鈥� imagine I鈥檓 going to shrink this ball now.听 So if I take that back from you, I鈥檓 going to shrink this ball down to the size of this marble.

听

White

Well I鈥檓 still not there yet, but more of that explanation later, designed to help visually-impaired people who struggle with scientific concepts.

听

And talking of colliders:

听

Macrae

It鈥檚 official 鈥� well at least as far as I鈥檓 concerned it is 鈥� walking the streets is definitely more perilous now than it used to be.

听

White

Well that鈥檚 the view of broadcaster Ian Macrae and a great many other blind and partially sighted people I鈥檝e talked to. 听There may though be some good news on this coming up.

听

But first, come on Ian, develop your thesis.

听

Macrae

Back in the 1980s the British Organisation of Blind People, the National Federation of the Blind, found it necessary to launch and run a campaign under the slogan 鈥� Give us back our pavements.听 Well let鈥檚 face it all we had to worry about back then was the presence of a few A boards outside shops, the odd rogue vehicle inconsiderately parked and some stray bits of overhanging foliage strategically placed to give you a face full of wet leaves.

听

All of these hazards persist today, despite the best efforts of the federation, but they鈥檝e been joined now by so many more.听

听

There was a time when it was the blind person鈥檚 privilege to bump into sighted pedestrians.听 Now we鈥檙e much more likely to be the bumpee rather than the bumper.听 This is because of the proliferation of smart phones and the apps on them.听 Not to mention texting and emails.听 All of these have to be checked once a minute in strict rotation even when the person is in the act of going from A to B.听 Heads go down, phones go up and your average pedestrian turns into what the venerable broadcaster Denis Norden has referred to as a 鈥渃ollider鈥�.

听

Next, the law of unintended consequences comes into play.听 The growth in caf茅 culture and the impact of the ban on smoking indoors means that there鈥檚 now a whole lot more of what we can quite literally refer to as pavement furniture.听 On the main road near where I live there鈥檚 a coffee shop, a rather humble little independent bakery and a newly opened tapas bar, all within about 50 metres of each other.听 Each of these establishments feels it necessary to make pavement seating provision for those who like a ciggie with their macchiato or their snack.听 But to us blind and partially sighted people these are just more obstacles to be avoided, if we鈥檙e lucky, or crashed into if we鈥檙e not.听

听

So while it may well be time for us to revive that slogan of that 鈥�80s and demand our pavements back everything suggests that actually reclaiming them may well be more difficult now than it鈥檚 ever been.

听

White

An indignant Ian Macrae.

听

Well Ian we probably can鈥檛 do all that much about people with ears full of phone calls or music but there could there be some help at hand? 听Come April it does look as if there are going to be fewer of those A or advertising boards that Ian was talking about.听听 You know the ones 鈥� knee high, sharp corners, put on pavements outside shops, often quite a long way out.听 Bradford is sorting this out.听 After a vigorous campaign by local disability organisations and including the RNIB, the local council has decided to impose a total ban on A Boards.

听

Well Stuart Ross is one local resident who鈥檚 giving three hearty cheers.

听

Ross

The town that I live in which is part of the Bradford district is Ilkley and over the last five or six years the number of A boards has increased dramatically.听 We鈥檝e had them on traffic islands, we鈥檝e had them on pavements which are only two and half foot wide and just trying to get from A to B has become an absolute nightmare.听 I used to start by moving them around but then as you know if you pick one up and don鈥檛 get your hands in the right place they tend to close on you.听 And so after a while it was just getting a bit painful and so I really started to campaign along with other members of the Bradford Association of Visually-impaired and other disabled groups to try to get these things removed.

听

White

Have you actually had any injuries as a result of these A boards?

听

Ross

I鈥檝e hit a few in my time.

听

White

And what鈥檚 your reaction to this decision that Bradford have now made?

听

Ross

Fantastic.听 It will make a tremendous difference to the lives of visually-impaired people.听 I mean what shopkeepers 鈥� it鈥檚 not malicious, they just do not understand the problems that visually-impaired people face.听 But we have got money in our pockets, as well as anybody else, and by positioning these boards it actually prevents us going to certain streets, certain areas, and going into particular shops.听 By removing these it will actually enhance the footfall for some of these shopkeepers.

听

White

That鈥檚 Stuart Ross.

听

Well Councillor Alex Ross-Shaw has responsibility for transport and planning in Bradford. 听He told me what had led them to make this decision now.

听

Ross-Shaw

Well we had a trial ban in four set areas across the district the last year, that ended in December, since then we鈥檝e been reviewing the impact of that.听 And a number of options came out and we ended up having a debate on it at full council and there was cross-party support to say let鈥檚 have a district wide ban on A boards.

听

White

And what did the year鈥檚 experiment tell you?

听

Ross-Shaw

The ban was successful in reducing the number of A boards and there was some enforcement work we had to do to get that message out.听 So we鈥檝e got to look at how that translates across an entire district.听 And there鈥檚 work to be done in reassuring businesses, we want to work with them as well to look at other ways of attracting passing trade.

听

White

I mean you could have gone for a licensing system, where you actually had to approve A boards, why have you gone for zero tolerance?

听

Ross-Shaw

The feeling was amongst members that the simplicity of a ban was ultimately preferable.听 Certainly we ended up kind of at risk of falling in between two stools, where the disabled community were unhappy with licensing because they felt it was a route to still having A boards and they鈥檙e very keen to see them removed from the street entirely.听 Whereas the business community kind of felt we were asking them to pay for something they鈥檇 previously got for free, so on balance there was a feeling that have a simple ban is a simple approach and then we can look at other ways of supporting business.

听

White

Have you looked at all 鈥� what other people are doing, do you know what the feeling is throughout the country?

听

Ross-Shaw

Yeah, so we had quite a debate on this, which areas still have what we鈥檇 call a reactive policy, which is generally that you鈥檇 have some guidance to say take care of where your A board is but you wouldn鈥檛 really do much other unless someone complained about it.听 Which area is licensed and which area is ban.听 And as I say there鈥檚 been generally a move towards greater regulation over the last few years in one form or another and as I say more and more places are looking at removing them entirely.

听

White

It鈥檚 all very well to introduce this but these things often fall down on enforcement.听 How confident are you that people will take notice and that people will actually be taken to task if they put A boards up?

听

Ross-Shaw

Yeah well that was one of the challenges I said at the start where we know going across the district is a different order of magnitude than having a trial in a number of areas.听 So we鈥檝e been looking at the best way of trying to ensure that every business in the district has that opportunity to be aware.听 So we鈥檙e looking at putting something out with the business rates notification at the turn of the year in the run up to the next financial year, so every business will get a letter articulating and just letting them know what the new policy is.听 And then like you say it鈥檚 enforcement issue then and then we have wardens out in the community, it鈥檚 something that Bradford Council is supportive of having those wardens as eyes and ears in the community and we鈥檒l be looking to them to enforce that policy.

听

White

What will the penalties be because if they鈥檙e not fairly fierce people will just say well if I think I鈥檓 losing money on advertising I鈥檒l just take the risk?

听

Ross-Shaw

Yeah absolutely and again that鈥檚 something we had to consider what was a reasonable kind of level of enforcement.听 Most businesses just comply straightaway and actually in things like this what you often get the complaints come from businesses that comply, who are unhappy with the shop round corner that鈥檚 not complying because they just want to see whatever the rule is they want to see a level playing field.听 So we鈥檝e looked at community protection notices, CPNs, and how they can work, so we鈥檒l have a two strike system 鈥� when we see people we鈥檒l just let them know are you aware, wardens will pop into the shop.听 But if someone insists on putting it out a number of times then we鈥檒l take that away and levy a fine as well.

听

White

And if people persistently ignore that?

听

Ross-Shaw

Well you鈥檒l have your A board taken away, so I guess as a shopkeeper you鈥檙e going to have to ask yourself 鈥� you can pay over a 拢100 for an A board, a couple of hundred for a really nice one, on top of that you鈥檒l have 拢100 fine.听 I鈥檓 not convinced that many businesses will be thinking right I鈥檓 going to pay 拢300 a week to put out an A board, so I鈥檇 hope that this process will really work for the vast majority of businesses.

听

White

That鈥檚 Councillor Alex Ross-Shaw.

听

Well we know that other councils have taken similar action and we鈥檇 like to hear from you about how successful that鈥檚 been in your area, if it鈥檚 happened, and whether it鈥檚 really made a difference.

听

And now back to the LHC or the Large Hadron Collider. 听Back in 2012 it was used to discover the Higgs Boson, or the so-called God particle. 听Well we knew it was important but just how many of us actually knew what it was?

听

Now scientists from the Cockroft Institute in Daresbury, Cheshire have taken up the challenge of explaining the science behind it in a way that could make it accessible to visually-impaired people. 听To do this, they鈥檝e created a number of tactile and audio exhibits to demonstrate how it works. 听They鈥檙e planning to visit schools to show it to visually-impaired children.听 But first our reporter, Tom Walker, has been to meet the physicists and engineers as they put the finishing touches to their exhibition and give a preview to Callum Stoneman and Derek Heyes.

听

Scientist

So what I鈥檓 going to pass you first Derek is a rather large ball, so just in front of you now.听 So this is 鈥� so what we鈥檙e going to try and do is to get some sort of sense of scale of these particles.听 So imagine 鈥� just feel how big this ball is, imagine I鈥檓 going to shrink this ball now.听 So if I take that back from you and I鈥檓 going to shrink this ball down to the size of this marble.听

听

Heyes

My name is Derek Heyes, I鈥檓 a former student at Worcester College and former teacher of history in a local school in Bolton.

听

Walker

One thing you and I both have in common is that we found science very difficult at school.听 What was the problem from your point of view?

听

Heyes

I think it was the whole picture 鈥� I didn鈥檛 understand sort of things like atoms and molecules and chemical elements.听 Maybe I felt that there was a visual aspect of those concepts that I couldn鈥檛 take on board as a blind person.

听

Walker

Callum Stoneman has just started information technology at Bolton University but when he was at school he too struggled with science.

听

Stoneman

I just think it鈥檚 so difficult to try and visualise everything when teachers are explaining it.

听

Walker

Was there anything in particular that really put the finishing touches to your science career and thought no I really just don鈥檛 get this?

听

Stoneman

Nothing in particular.听 I think just sitting through a number of lessons just not getting any further, just thinking 鈥� no I don鈥檛 understand this.

听

Scientist

One more twentieth down it鈥檒l be the size of a drop 鈥� single drop of rain, then another twentieth is a speck of dust and we wouldn鈥檛 really be able to feel that, so I haven鈥檛 really got a speck of dust for you to feel.听 We still have to go another four times down further and then we鈥檇 be at the scale of an atom.

听

Heyes

So yeah I think I got a lot from that scaling down of the particle with the big beach ball type device and the marble, then the fact that it was even smaller than the marble, I think that did give me some real insight into how very small the particle is.

听

Appleby

So Tom this is the tactile [indistinct words] at Daresbury Laboratory where we鈥檝e set up the four stations of tactile collider.听 Over in the corner we have the particle station, where people learn that everything鈥檚 made of subatomic particles.听 Here we have the acceleration station where we learn how part of the accelerator use [indistinct words] fields.听 And here we have the magnet station where we learn about how magnets are used to bend and focus particle beams and here we have the final Higgs station, we learn about detectors and how we make the Higgs Boson and observe its role in nature.

听

Walker

This is Dr Rob Appleby, one of the scientists behind the project.

听

Appleby

The Higgs was discovered in 2012, which was a very exciting event for science, and we built the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, which is the world鈥檚 biggest science experiment ever constructed.听 And this is very exciting for everybody, so a turning point in our understanding of the universe.听 And a lot of the coverage of this was very much visual and there was a UK exhibition that toured round the Large Hadron Collider that I was involved in and there were some guests at this exhibition who were visually-impaired.听 So the museum in Manchester phoned me up and asked me to give a bespoke tour to this couple of this LHC exhibition.听 So from that the idea arose to try and redo public engagement using more sound and more tactile objects to help explain the Higgs Boson and the Large Hadron Collider.

听

Walker

So what have you done here to try and overcome that obvious deficit?

听

Appleby

So we鈥檝e tried to use sound, we鈥檝e tried to use touch, we鈥檝e just to have a personalised learning experience.听 So people sit with scientists, they get to feel objects linked to the Higgs Boson and Large Hadron Collider.听 They get to hear the Higgs Boson and the Large Hadron Collider through special binaural soundscapes.听 So it replaces the visual aspects of Higgs Boson learning with touch and sound aspects of learning.

听

Noise

听

Scientist

What did you think of the sound effect?

听

Heyes

Well it was bit like a swashing sound.

听

Stoneman

It was like a sea sort of noise really, yeah.

听

Walker

What did it say to you Callum, what sort of conclusions did you draw from it?

听

Stoneman

I couldn鈥檛 quite understand what the audio was saying.

听

Walker

What about you Derek, did it kind of say anything to you?

听

Heyes

I think it indicates or revealed the kind of 鈥� the control over the beam because it was 鈥� because it sort of loud and then soft it kind of indicated that they were controlling the flow quite precisely I suppose.听 Does that make sense?

听

Scientist

It does yeah, that鈥檚 exactly it.听 It鈥檚 all about the way in which cause these particles to oscillate around the accelerator so that we can keep the particles inside of the machine.

听

Walker

Do you feel now then Derek, after today鈥檚 session, that you have a better understanding of science, perhaps even do GCSE or A Level?

听

Heyes

I think so, yeah, I think I鈥檒l take away what I鈥檝e learnt today and think about it and try and piece together all the various aspects of the things that were demonstrated to us.听 I won鈥檛 be taking sort of science or particle physics as my next subject in Mastermind but I鈥檇 certainly think that I鈥檝e gained quite a lot from today鈥檚 experience and the knowledge that鈥檚 being imparted with the various ways of trying to teach the subject to me.

听

Stoneman

Science, like I said, isn鈥檛 my strong subject in general but I feel like 鈥� yeah I feel like I would have had more of an understanding if this had been available.

听

Walker

So how do young people feel about it?听 Well I鈥檝e left Daresbury and I鈥檝e come to St Vincent鈥檚 School for the Blind in Liverpool to find out what their students make of it all.

听

Teacher

This here is our tactile particle accelerator.听

听

Walker

And it鈥檚 literally being put together as we speak is it?

听

Teacher
It is yeah.听 So this is going to be an immersive experience for our students.听 They鈥檙e going to be able to walk around a model of a real particle accelerator, it鈥檚 going to feel like a real machine, it鈥檚 going to be coated in metal, it鈥檒l be cold and hard to touch just like a real accelerator.

听

Do you want to come round as well?听 What happens to the beam pipe around here?

听

Student

I would imagine it gets stopped because like there鈥檚 a humongous thing and it would have to be very small to fit through.

听

Teacher

Yeah, so you鈥檝e noticed it goes around the beam pipe?

听

Student

Yeah.

听

Teacher

Yeah, so what these are are quadrupoles鈥�

听

Walker

Fourteen year old Summer is in Year 10 and studying science for GCSE.

听

Summer

I鈥檓 really enjoying it because science is one of my strong subjects and I like learning about atoms and magnetism is really important to me because I really enjoy how it works.

听

Walker

What have you learnt today so far then?

听

Summer

Well so far today I鈥檝e learnt some more like scientific words to do with magnetism and atoms and how things just connect with each other and how small an atom is and it鈥檚 more than a raindrop, so it鈥檚 impossible to see.

听

Teacher

What other question?听 It鈥檚 why don鈥檛 we use gravity to accelerate particles?

听

Student

Because if we had gravity 鈥� if gravity鈥檚 used the particles would just be pulled down to the earth, so you wouldn鈥檛 be able to accelerate as fast.

听

Teacher

Yes exactly, they don鈥檛 accelerate as fast.听 So again if I take this ball, if I drop it鈥�

听

Student

It just falls.

听

Teacher

It just falls.

听

Walker

Fourteen year old Rainbow is studying science for GCSE, he鈥檚 a member of this group that鈥檚 looking at the accelerator.听 I don鈥檛 know about you Rainbow but for me I find science very difficult, I find it hard to conceptualise things like molecules and atoms, do you feel that you understand those better now?

听

Rainbow

Yeah, I think what was helpful was probably all the raised diagrams because that was quite helpful.

听

Summer

I find the diagrams very important because they鈥檙e tactile and it means that if I can鈥檛 see it that well then I can figure it out to feel with my fingers.

听

Walker

And do you think today then that it鈥檚 helped you?

听

Summer

I do, I think it鈥檒l make me feel like I can push myself forward even more.

听

White

That鈥檚 the pupils at St Vincent鈥檚 School in Liverpool ending Tom Walker鈥檚 report. 听My old science master once famously said he鈥檇 rather have a sack full of rabbits in his lab than me.听 Which probably gives you some idea of what kind of science student I was.

听

That鈥檚 it for today, if there鈥檚 anything you want to tell us you can call our Action Line for 24 hours after the programme on 0800 044044, you can email in touch@bbc.co.uk or click on contact us on our website www.bbc.co.uk/intouch. 听From me Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel and the team, goodbye.

听

听

听

听

听

听