成人论坛

EV Platform is a free reading aid for people with macular disease. With the app you can read the news, eBooks and emails as well as being able to copy and paste any text to read.听

The device developed by Prof. Robin听Walker听at 飞颈迟丑听, a London-based digital product studio.听

The link for EV platform is

The website for The Macular Society is

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人论坛 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

TX:听 21.01.20听 2040-2100

听

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 MIKE YOUNG

听

听

White

Good evening.听 Most blind travellers would say the talking bus has been a great leap forward.听 But tonight we ask when will it be universal, rather than in just a few select places.听 And the challenges of reading to your children when you鈥檙e blind.

听

Clip

The first three, no bother, they were happy for me to make up stories at bedtime, so no worries.听 But number four, Isabella, and when she got to about four wanted them to be word perfect.听 So, I was looking around and came across this app and met the small daughter test.听 So, we managed to get through like the Railway Children and a few other books.

听

White

We鈥檒l be finding out about that app and how a persistent daughter revolutionised her dad鈥檚 ability to read.

听

But first, a little over a year ago the UK government launched its inclusive transport strategy.听 The aim, to improve public transport accessibility for disabled passengers.听 Buses account for over half of all public transport journeys and the government is now stumping up 拢2 million to provide audio equipment on more buses.听 This is the kit that tells you where you鈥檝e reached on your journey, your next stop and the final destination.听 In a moment we鈥檒l be looking at just how far that money will go to provide this service nationwide.听 But first, we asked our bus using reporter, Fern Lulham, to take a journey where buses with audio information are already in use.

听

Lulham

I am sitting on a bus in Brighton and for once in my life I鈥檓 not anxiously counting the bus stops and wondering when my stop is coming up and that鈥檚 all because of this lovely lady.

听

Bus announcement

The next stop is Brighton Station.

听

Lulham

Having audio visual equipment which tells you where you are and when your stop is coming up makes life so much easier when you鈥檙e visually impaired.听 But this technology comes at a price 鈥� anywhere between 拢800 and 拢4,000 per bus, according to the Department for Transport.听 I wanted to find out whether Brighton and Hove Bus Company has found this to be a price worth paying for them.

听

Garcia

My name鈥檚 Victoria Garcia, I鈥檓 the accessibility and communities manager at Brighton Hove Buses and Metro Bus.

听

Lulham

I think we would all applaud the great work that you鈥檝e done to make public transport more accessible and the benefits that this has given disabled people, does it also make sense commercially Victoria?

听

Garcia

Absolutely.听 One in five people in the UK are disabled, however, we鈥檙e all going to have an accessibility requirement at some point in our lives, whether that be because we become pregnant or become older and start living well with dementia or we鈥檝e broken our arm or broken our leg, at some point everyone of the 100% of the population will have an accessibility requirement.听 So, not to make our buses more accessible for disabled people just isn鈥檛 viable at all.

听

Lulham

And do you find that even sometimes people without disabilities, it鈥檚 just helpful to have audio telling them where they are?

听

Garcia

It is.听 So, an example, if you鈥檙e travelling at night, windows steam up, don鈥檛 know where you are, taking the route for the first time, fantastic for tourists, for students, for somebody travelling to an area unknown to them, as well as for people with sight impairment.听 There is a cost involved and that has to be recognised.

听

Hill

I鈥檓 Nick Hill, commercial director of Brighton and Hove Buses and Metro Bus.

听

Lulham

Can you just tell me a little bit about the ethos of the leadership of Brighton and Hove Buses in making buses accessible?

听

Hill

We kind of started small and we鈥檝e worked our way through the years.听 One of the key things has been to have a full-time accessibility manager, we think the first in the industry, and encouraging us to all be thinking at all times about the importance of accessibility in everything we do.听 Sometimes it can actually be free or cheap to do.听 The key thing is when we introduce something new into our business, whether it鈥檚 say a new bus or new ticketing technology or say a new app, making sure that everyone is able to use it.

听

Lulham

And thinking about other parts of the country that maybe haven鈥檛 implemented this yet, where is best to start if you鈥檙e thinking about trying to make buses more accessible?

听

Hill

It鈥檚 about starting off with those simple things and engaging with local groups and users, ask simple open questions about what they would like to see and then trialling things and implementing them, testing things because there鈥檚 often some simple tweaks you can do to make it better and make work perfectly from day one.

听

Lulham

Well, not to be outdone I thought I would ask a visually impaired bus user myself.听 Graham Oulton is a guide dog user who worked for Guide Dogs UK for three years, Brighton and Hove Buses used his experience to help them address the needs of visually impaired bus users.

听

Oulton

It鈥檚 been tremendous, getting on board a bus and actually hearing the stops is amazing.听 It would tell you when the next stop is after it鈥檚 gone off from the actual bus stop it鈥檚 been at.听 I feel relaxed on buses since it鈥檚 had the audio transmissions on the bus.听 The actual driver does other things as well, they鈥檙e telling people when the actual bus is full and if people can move to make sure disability people actually have a seat.

听

Lulham

Okay, I think I鈥檓 nearly at my stop now, so, let鈥檚 see what happens.

听

Bus announcement

The next stop is North Street, alight here for the Royal Pavilion, the Lanes and sea front and change here for buses to all parts of the city.

听

White

Well that鈥檚 Fern Lulham in Brighton and Fern took the opportunity, while she was there, to ask the transport minister, Nus Ghani, about what the money they鈥檙e putting up would be used for.

听

Ghani

The 拢2 million is focused on those smaller bus companies that may not feel they鈥檝e got finances to put audio visual in place.

听

Lulhman

Do you envisage using the law to ensure that all buses have audio visual equipment installed in them?

听

Ghani

We really want to work in partnership with bus companies and local authorities.听 But most bus companies understand to increase patronage they need to provide up-to-date information and data, including on their buses.听 And if you want your bus passenger numbers to go up this is the kind of kit that you need to put in service.

听

Lulham

So, is it mainly about cooperation or could there be law enforcement if it needed it?

听

Ghani

I think if we鈥檙e unable to meet our inclusive transport strategy then obviously we may have to look to legislate but let鈥檚 see how we work with bus companies.听 A lot of them are looking at how they can work with us to get this information up and running and then we鈥檝e got fantastic companies, like Brighton Buses, who are leading the way.

听

White

Well that鈥檚 Transport Minister Nus Ghani.

听

Well, Keith Richards chairs the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, known as DPTAC, which does what it says on the tin really 鈥� advises the government on transport.

听

Keith, we know that talking bus technology is now being used in areas, well it鈥檚 been in London for a long time now, Brighton we heard, Bristol, Hampshire but how well is the UK actually covered?

听

Richards

Well not very well at all.听 Most buses in the country are not available with this kind of technology and that鈥檚 a real problem.

听

White

The government is offering this money to small companies, they appear to think that the big companies should be doing this themselves.

听

Richards

Yes, I mean 拢2 million sounds like a lot of money to you and me but actually it鈥檚 a drop in the ocean in terms of what would be required to be spent across the whole sector 鈥� all buses 鈥� to bring them up to a standard.听 But it鈥檚 good that it鈥檚 being focused on those smaller operators because those are the ones who are least likely to invest the money.听 I think the real thing that came out of your report was that there are real commercial reasons why this is being done already by the industry and that is that it brings in more custom and that鈥檚 not just from disabled people but from people who are visitors or otherwise anxious or confused when using public transport.听 But the law needs to change, it needs to be brought in and this needs to be made compulsory.

听

White

The minister seemed reluctant to commit herself to legislation, forcing bus companies into installing talking technology, do you think that is what will be necessary in the end?

听

Richards

I think it will, I mean there are lots of past examples where guidance and encouragement has been provided and some deliver and some don鈥檛, because they don鈥檛 have to.听 A lot of companies don鈥檛 necessarily see that this is a requirement, this is necessary and I think those businesses need to be made to understand that if they don鈥檛 do this there will be consequences for them but that has to go hand in hand with financial support to help them deliver these kind of outcomes that will improve people鈥檚 journeys.

听

White

That鈥檚 Keith Richards from the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee or DPTAC.

听

Now, it seems we did something right on last week鈥檚 programme about local organisations of blind people.听 Helen Roseblade Old is director of the Oxfordshire Association.听 She says it was a very accurate reflection of their situation and a real boost to hear the positive reactions to their local services given airtime.听 Meanwhile, Moira Kopanycia-Reynolds works for the Dorset Blind Association as a community support worker.听 She emailed: 鈥淲e currently support 1500 people with sight loss.听 We have approximately 300 volunteers and 16 staff.听 Some of our more unusual activities include bongo drumming sessions and acoustic shooting and we鈥檙e working in partnership with the Macular Society to offer something called eccentric viewing and steady eye technique.鈥澨� Which, thanks to Moira, brings us very neatly to our next item.

听

People consistently tell us on this programme that reading is one of the things they miss most when sight begins to go.听 And eccentric viewing or EV lies at the heart of a technological development that increasing numbers of people are using.听 For a couple of years now Dame Judi Dench has been one of them.听 She uses it to help her learn her lines.

听

Dench

I suffer from macular degeneration and I find it very, very difficult to learn scripts or to read in any way.听 But this is an app that has been developed by the Royal Holloway and it鈥檚 enormously beneficial.听 It can be faster or slower, it can be larger or smaller and it has a kind of focal point thing that moves across and it really is a huge help.听 And I hope a lot of other people find it as beneficial as I do.

听

White

Well, that鈥檚 Dame Judi Dench giving us a brief introduction to something called the EV News app.听 It鈥檚 been around for getting on for 10 years now but it鈥檚 just been upgraded.听 Its inventor is Professor Robin Walker, from the Department of Psychology at Royal Holloway, University of London and he joins me now.

听

Robin, first of all, this app sounds well beyond a magnifier or magnification, so, for a layman, how does this work, what can it do and who鈥檚 it for?

听

Walker

The way the app works is it takes text from say an eBook and it scrolls it as a single line from right to left, similar to, say, a news ticker along the bottom of a TV screen.听 And you can enlarge the text to help people who鈥檝e still got some remaining peripheral vision, if they鈥檝e got macular loss, to try and read that text as it scrolls along.听 And the main advantage is you don鈥檛 have to look at the text in the normal way you would read, by looking 鈥� directing your eyes to look at each word, you can try and read using something called eccentric vision or eccentric viewing which is to try and direct your gaze slightly away from the text and hold your gaze away from the text and let the text scroll past.听 The app allows people to change the size of the font and also to control the speed that it is scrolling at.

听

White

So, is it almost as if you don鈥檛 move your eye, your head, as much, it follows you rather than you following it?

听

Walker

That鈥檚 exactly right.听 The idea is rather than you follow it by moving your eyes along a line of text in the normal way, you try and hold your gaze, using something called the steady eye technique.听 It is a difficult technique to get used to, it does need some practise.

听

White

So, not necessarily for everyone?

听

Walker

Not necessarily for everyone, it鈥檚 designed specifically for people who do have a central vision loss.

听

White

And people using it 鈥� how?听 On their tablets, their iPhones, their laptops?

听

Walker

Well, as you mentioned, when we first released it, which was about 鈥� back in 2011, it was designed as an iPad app which is freely available for tablet devices on the app store or Google Play and it only works for eBooks.听 The new release is called EV Platform and that allows people to read current news content, you can select today鈥檚 成人论坛 headlines, it will present your emails, only Gmail at the moment, as well as eBooks as well.

听

White

And this is free, this is not a commercial enterprise?

听

Walker

This is entirely free, we鈥檝e always wanted it to be made freely available.听 And the current version should work on any web browser, so you don鈥檛 have to download anything, you just go to the address and it should work on whatever web browser you use 鈥� Safari or Firefox etc.

听

White

Let me bring in Jonathan Ward.听 Jonathan, you鈥檝e been using an earlier version of Robin鈥檚 system.听 Tell us a bit about 鈥� well first of your degree of vision, that would help.

听

Ward

I鈥檝e had sight problems since I was about nine, 10, something like that, so I can remember reading 鈥� just picking up and reading a newspaper but over the last 鈥� a long time, a very long time my sight has deteriorated, I have no central vision left at all, so I鈥檝e gone through the magnifiers, video, the whole works really, until I picked up this aid, probably about 2012, something like that.

听

White

And I gather that there is a story behind how you picked up on it isn鈥檛 there?

听

Ward

Well, I鈥檝e got lots of children鈥�

听

White

How many, we鈥檇 better specify?

听

Ward

Well it feels like hundreds but it鈥檚 actually 鈥� just had five.听 The first three, no bother, they were happy for me to make up stories at bedtimes but number four, Isabella, and when she got to about four wanted them to be word perfect.听 So, obviously reading with a magnifier didn鈥檛 really give me the sort of 鈥� couldn鈥檛 really read with the fluency that she required so I was looking around and came across this app.听 So, I use the scrolling line, I fixate, as Robin describes, but I also use the sort of built-in magnification of the iPad as well, so, I get a little bit of extra magnification.听 So, I have like one word scrolling across the page at a time.

听

White

And so how much faster, how much more fluent has it made you?

听

Ward

I wouldn鈥檛 say I was as fluent as like yourself or a radio presenter but I met the small daughter test, so we managed to get through like the Railway Children and a few other books, yes.

听

White

Right.听 Robin, I mean I鈥檓 quite surprised I鈥檝e not talked about this with you or anyone else before, does that mean it鈥檚 not as well known or as much used as it should be?

听

Walker

I think that鈥檚 right.听 The main source of information for people, if they have been diagnosed with macular degeneration, one of the most useful things they can do is contact the Macular Society and look at all the information on their website.听 They have been publicising this but I think people have a tendency to go to an optician or see somebody and then they are given a magnifier and what they aren鈥檛 given is extra advice, which is really what they need about something like this, so, other strategies they can use.

听

White

And that鈥檚, I guess, one of the things that I feel is important, that we don鈥檛 overplay this to say this is a solution to all your problems.听 I mean Jonathan, what are the challenges in using it?

听

Ward

You have to have an eBook and most of those books are out of copyright, so they tend to be older texts.听 And actually, the hard part is you have to be fairly technically literate to actually get those books.听 Sometimes a little help would be required probably to actually download books to put on it.

听

White

Yeah, Robin perhaps you could just say a bit more and what is this rights issue?

听

Walker

It鈥檚 something I hadn鈥檛 appreciated when I started but if you buy an eBook yourself online for your Kindle or whatever they鈥檙e encrypted by the publishers, so you can only read it on a Kindle.听 My original app, it鈥檚 called the MD for Macular Degeneration EV Eccentric Viewer Reader and that only works with out of copyright books.听 Now there are various places, like Project Gutenberg, you can download a free eBook, like Great Expectations but not every child wants to hear Great Expectations as their bedside story.听 So, there is this issue鈥�

听

White

It might pass the Isabella test.

听

Walker

So, there is this issue of content and that鈥檚 why we鈥檝e released EV Platform because it does allow today鈥檚 news 鈥� you can use it on your iPad, you can tap on the headline and then the headline will scroll as a single line for you.听 Getting your Google email account on is a little bit tricky.听 We鈥檝e tried to add some help video guides to get people started.听 There鈥檚 also a free text drop box, so if it鈥檚 just a small amount of text you can do copy and paste and then it will scroll it for you as well.听 So, EV Platform sort of combines these things.听 There鈥檚 also an eBook reader there, if you get yourself an out of copyright EPUB document.

听

White

So, Jonathan, where are you getting most of your books from and do you use it as a leisure device as well as simply reading to your children?

听

Ward

I don鈥檛鈥�

听

White

Why not?

听

Ward

Well, I guess, for me, I鈥檝e probably over the years moved towards audio books and I use a lot of speech technology, because it鈥檚 quick and fast.听 I use it more as a work tool now because I鈥檝e actually learnt how to drop in notes and so if I was chairing a meeting or something like that or had to remember something, so if I was doing a presentation, then I would actually put the notes in so I could actually read to a group of people, key facts, the memory鈥檚 not so good now so it鈥檚 really useful for reading key facts and giving presentations, that sort of thing.

听

White

Right.听 You see listening to this I鈥檓 thinking, Robin, about the great majority of, for example, Macular Society members or indeed people with macular degeneration who aren鈥檛 members who are older, are facing this for the first time, unlike Jonathan who has been visually impaired for a long time and knows his around the technology, how difficult would it be for them to make use of this?

听

Walker

I think the thing is it requires a little bit of practise.听 Sometimes people might have a tendency to give up reading altogether and this can be a tool to allow people to learn and practise using this technique 鈥� Eccentric Viewing 鈥� for reading in other ways.

听

White

That鈥檚 Professor Robin Walker and you also heard Jonathan Ward there.听 You can find the link to the EV Platform that they were telling us about on our website and we also have a link on the website to the Macular Society.听 And do tell us if you鈥檝e found this sort of technology user friendly or something that maybe isn鈥檛 for you.

听

And that鈥檚 it for today.听 You can leave messages with your comments on 0161 8361338.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can download tonight鈥檚 and many other previous editions of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and the team, goodbye.

听