³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH Ìý

TX:Ìý 05.04.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening. ÌýTonight, our focus is very much on education.Ìý We’re going to be hearing from the students struggling with the allowance designed to help with their extra needs at university.

Ìý

Clips

And one of the big issues with DSA is that there is no clear-cut line as to what the university does and what the DSA does.

Ìý

Then I was told it would be sorted out within two weeks.Ìý Then I was told it would be fast tracked, which is 48 hours.Ìý Then I was told it would be fast tracked and that would be seven days.Ìý

Ìý

White

Well, will proposed reforms solve problems like this?

Ìý

But we start by looking at a new across the board framework for the way visually impaired children are educated.Ìý What they’re taught, who by and covering not just the academic curriculum but things such as daily living skills, getting around, personal care.Ìý

Ìý

You might be surprised that such a framework doesn’t actually already exist but it doesn’t and teachers, education academics and charities concerned with visual impairment have felt it necessary to produce these root and branch proposals.

Ìý

To find out more about them, I’m joined, first, by Caireen Sutherland, she’s head of education at the Royal National Institute for Blind People and a qualified teacher of visually impaired children or a QTVI, as you may hear them described.

Ìý

Caireen, I’m interested in why this framework has been produced because these aren’t new proposals, you must have thought there was something wrong in the way things are being delivered at the moment, so why this framework now?

Ìý

Sutherland

So, we know that a child with a visual impairment requires a lot of additional skills to supplement their learning and to enable them to access the world around them.Ìý VIEW, the Vision Impairment Education Workforce, wrote a paper in 2019 which clearly identified a number of specialist curriculum frameworks and none of which had statutory status, there was a lack of clarity about what should be taught and by who.Ìý So, we identified that this was something that was missing in the UK to support children with visual impairment.

Ìý

White

I mean you are a qualified teacher of visual impairment and one of the feelings I got was that teachers like yourself are being used in the system at the moment more to administer than to teach – would that be fair?

Ìý

Sutherland

I think that the role has become ever more demanding.Ìý We are required to do specialist teaching and also oversee the access to all those other areas.Ìý So, the role has become very widespread and demanding and this curriculum framework looks to clearly identify who should administer and teach those and which specialists should be involved.

Ìý

White

Now there was a time when much of the discussion about education of visually impaired children centred around where it was taught – special schools or mainstream – to put it simply, now that hardly gets a mention in this framework, does that mean the debate about special versus mainstream is over?Ìý Shouldn’t all teachers be taught those skills in their training?

Ìý

Sutherland

One of the aims of this framework is to provide a common language, a shared vocabulary, that the specialists can use but also that mainstream teachers can access and understand and families and young people themselves can use to advocate for those skills.Ìý There is a move, of course, towards every teacher being a teacher of SEND…

Ìý

White

That’s special educational needs delivery, isn’t it?

Ìý

Sutherland

Yes and this framework encourages knowledge across the mainstream workforce but also highlights that you need the specialists to teach some of those very special skills like braille, technology, habilitation, which we’re going to hear more about later.

Ìý

White

In fact we can hear about it now because, as you say, this framework does cover teaching of many other life skills – mobility, sensory development, skills to develop overall mental and physical wellbeing.Ìý

Ìý

Fiona Broadley represents habilitation VI UK and is the senior habilitation specialist at Birmingham City Council.

Ìý

Fiona, are most children getting this kind of training now?

Ìý

Broadley

Unfortunately, there is still a little bit of a postcode lottery but I think that having brought out the curriculum framework it makes people more aware of what they should be entitled to, so maybe we will get a little bit more equality brought across the country.

Ìý

White

But that is a problem, isn’t it, that, as you say, this kind of training has traditionally been delivered through local authorities and that, in the end, comes down to an issue of resources and we know they’ve been squeezed over the last couple of decades.Ìý Local authorities vary in the prioritisation they give to it.Ìý Won’t that continue to be a problem wherever it’s taught?

Ìý

Broadley

I’m sure it will.Ìý But the fact remains that by creating this document we have a benchmark against which parents, educational psychologists, everybody who is involved in supporting that child can measure what is being offered to that child, then parents can challenge the local authority to try and get them put into place.

Ìý

White

Can I ask you how easily this sort of thing can be woven into a mainstream timetable at a mainstream school?

Ìý

Broadley

It can be done.Ìý It is easier if you try and put it in place lower down the school.Ìý So, in an ideal world, you don’t want to be trying to compete against the timetable that is set up for a child to achieve at GCSE level, for instance, because every moment they’re out of the classroom puts them further behind.Ìý The problem for children is always that unless they’ve got these other skills, these life skills, they can achieve all sorts of things academically but they might never be prepared to go into the workplace, they might never have full mobility to live independently.Ìý And so it’s a balance, isn’t it?

Ìý

White

Yes.Ìý And Caireen, if I can end on this balance, these proposals are all very well but they don’t have legal force at the moment.Ìý Who’s going to make sure they actually happen?

Ìý

Sutherland

Well, we’re entering now the implementation phase of this work.Ìý And in terms of linking in with governments, we’re working across all the governments to establish this with the relevant statutory guidance.

Ìý

White

Caireen Sutherland, Fiona Broadley, thank you both very much indeed.

Ìý

Now, the final section dealt with in this new framework is the transition to adulthood and for many that means, of course, being a student at college or university.Ìý But we’re being told that for many that experience can be blighted by the problems of getting the Disabled Student Allowance.Ìý That’s designed to cover the added cost visually impaired students incur for special equipment, added help with notetaking, learning to navigate a complicated new environment.Ìý Problems like these, described to us by two current students, starting with Paul Goddard, who was at the University of Law when his problems began.

Ìý

Goddard

I applied back in March 2021 as I usually do to try and get the application going as soon as possible.Ìý And then it took until mid-September to actually make a decision, by which time the course had already started and I was being pressured by the University of Law to defer.Ìý It was very stressful because I knew that I couldn’t start my course without the support actually in place and I couldn’t understand why it was taking so long when previously it had been sorted out quite quickly.

Ìý

White

And did you ever get an explanation of that?

Ìý

Goddard

No.Ìý In fact, the University of Law were actually holding me accountable for the fees.Ìý They were saying that I had to pay my course fees because I hadn’t deferred in time.Ìý Even though it wasn’t my fault, it was purely because I didn’t have the decision from DSA.

Ìý

White

So, in a way, you’ve been batted backwards and forth really in this whole process?

Ìý

Goddard

Yes and given lots of contradictory information from DSA.Ìý So, originally, I was told that the reason it was so long was because they deal with applications for undergraduates first and then postgraduates.Ìý Then I was told that isn’t true, they deal with them as they come in.Ìý Then I was told it would be sorted out within two weeks.Ìý Then I was told it would be fast-tracked, which is 48 hours.Ìý Then I was told it would be fast-tracked and that would be seven days.Ìý Then I was told it would be fast-tracked and that would be two days.

Ìý

White

What about the methods of communication because I think you had a few problems with that as well from the DSA?

Goddard

Yes, that’s right.Ìý So, because of my visual impairment, I asked if they would provide the resources in large print and this huge envelope arrived with, I would say, a form printed on A2 paper and when I said to them – this actually isn’t large print because large print is enlargement of the text not enlargement of the paper size – they said – oh, that’s all we can offer, that’s all we have access to.

Ìý

Ahluwalia

My name is Ramanique ÌýCor Ahluwalia [phon.] and I’m a second year electrical engineering student at a London university.Ìý

Ìý

White

So Ramanique, when did you realise that you had a problem because I think you didn’t realise straightaway did you?

Ìý

Ahluwalia

So, going into the DSA assessment I’ve always had challenges throughout my education and for me I thought, you know, finally, the DSA would be a great point of call for just getting the support I need, finally.Ìý And, unfortunately, that’s not how it came about.Ìý So, some of the things I was going in and requesting were things like an iPad because that’s all I’ve ever known as a VI student in mainstream schools.Ìý And when I went to my needs assessor and asked can I purchase an iPad, they said – Well, no, you can’t – because I had a previous iPad which was much, much, much older, however, it didn’t meet the standards that I wanted it to.

Ìý

White

So, because you already had a piece of equipment, they were saying you can’t have another one, even though that would have been better for you?

Ìý

Ahluwalia

Yes, exactly.

Ìý

White

You had a problem with the needs assessments that you had generally, didn’t you?

Ìý

Ahluwalia

Yes, I did.Ìý So, my needs assessor, she didn’t really understand my requirements.Ìý There was a real lack of empathy.Ìý So, for me, as a student, I really had to pluck the courage to go to her for support and ask, that sort of atmosphere wasn’t positive at all and it got to the point where I had to have a member of my family sitting during these calls to make sure that nothing was said out of line.

Ìý

White

How long have you been waiting for the equipment that you need?

Ìý

Ahluwalia

To be honest, I’ve given up with the DSA.Ìý Most recently I tried to put in a request for a new laptop and the automatic response was, again, no.Ìý And as a result, I sort of took into my own hands and have been finding grants and other charities to supply the equipment I need.Ìý At the beginning of my second year of university, I had asked for mobility support and one of the big issues with DSA is that there is no clear-cut line as to what the university does and what the DSA does.Ìý And for that reason, there was a back and forth between whether mobility support should have been provided by the university or by the DSA.

Ìý

White

I’d like to ask you both the same question.Ìý Paul first.Ìý What would you most like to see the DSA do, I mean what are you really looking for to improve things?

Ìý

Goddard

I think the most important thing, Peter, is to not just try and have a one-size fits all solution to everyone with a certain disability.Ìý It’s important to listen to the students.

Ìý

White

And Ramanique, what about you?Ìý If you only have one wish granted, what would it be?

Ìý

Ahluwalia

I think that it’s almost like pot luck at the minute whether you get a needs assessor who wants to understand, who wants to help and has that knowledge to do so.Ìý So, my improvement would be, having a team available at hand, those who understand specialist equipment for your disability and then those who also understand it for your course.Ìý All those things come together to form a good package for a student ready to thrive in education.

Ìý

White

Ramanique Ahluwalia and Paul Goddard.Ìý The University of Law, which Paul attended, say they sincerely apologise for the problems that Paul faced and they say it’s deeply committed to providing a high level of support for ensuring equal opportunity for disabled students and so was disappointed that this led to Paul withdrawing his application.

Ìý

Well, someone who’s taken a big interest in this problem is Lord Holmes, visually impaired himself and he led a short debate on it back in September.Ìý Chris Holmes, you’ve just produced a number of recommendations – 20 in all – so we can’t possibly mention them all.Ìý What do you think are the key things you want to happen?

Ìý

Holmes

The most important thing is to put the student at the centre of every element of the scheme.Ìý If DSA was run in that sense on a personalised agenda, student centric, then you would have a transformation, not only in the experience but in the number of disabled students coming through and succeeding in higher education.Ìý You heard from Paul and Ramanique, a prospective lawyer, a prospective engineer, who should have been enabled and empowered.Ìý The Disabled Students Allowance is a gem of a policy and when it works it works really well.Ìý The difficulty is for far too many people it isn’t working optimally and for some it isn’t working at all.

Ìý

White

Well, the allowance is administered by the Student Loans Company and listening to that is David Wallace, who’s its deputy chief executive.Ìý

Ìý

David, the Student Loan Company are soon to be releasing the finer details of a DSA procurement which is set to improve the service but you’ve just heard the current problems with the DSA from the students themselves.Ìý I mean what do you say to that because it’s the delays, I think, which is possibly the thing which hits you most in what we’ve just heard?

Ìý

Wallace

First of all, sincere apologies to both Paul and Ramanique for any of the delays that they faced and we’re working very hard to change the entire system.Ìý We know that the process takes too long, we know it is too complex.Ìý We know that the current system puts too much of an onus on them to take action and involve them contacting multiple companies.Ìý Ramanique’s experience, actually, wasn’t with the student loans company that operationalises the DSA but actually, as she explained, with the needs assessment centres and the provision of the equipment, all of which is within the scope of the forms that we are looking to tackle and improve.

Ìý

White

Can I ask you, specifically, about one aspect of this, which seems particularly concerning?Ìý There’s an average waiting time, an average waiting time, of 100 days, in other words more than three months, between making your application and getting confirmation that you’re on the scheme.Ìý That’s not that you’re going to get your equipment but just confirmation that you’re on the scheme.Ìý That’s, surely, very alarming, isn’t it?

Ìý

Wallace

The students with disability have a particularly longer and more complex journey to go through.Ìý The current process which then, as I mentioned, requires customers with disability to make contact with these assessment centres and then separately with the providers of either assistive technology or indeed training is too fragmented.Ìý The reforms which we are announcing will move to a very different commercial model with a smaller number of organisations who will work across the piece and will have end to end responsibility for all of these activities and most importantly tracking and contacting the customer and being proactive in guiding the customer through the process. We, SLC, will be holding these partners to account against a series of quality metrics.

Ìý

White

We had hoped that you would be able to tell us some of these proposals and there have been delays before between promises and announcements.Ìý Can you tell us when precisely we’re actually going to hear about these and when they’re going to be put into practice?

Ìý

Wallace

This week.Ìý So, it is just going through the final legal sign off.Ìý Current arrangements do not allow for any contractual obligations between the providers of services, the individuals and us as the organisation that operationalises government policy and we’re putting all of that in place, which will allow us to hold all parties to account.

Ìý

White

Let me just, finally, go back to Lord Holmes.Ìý I mean you are, specifically, putting recommendations to the government?Ìý What’s happening about those, what’s the timescale on those?

Ìý

Holmes

I submitted my report to the minister responsible for higher education.Ìý I’m hoping that all 20 recommendations will be taken on board because the vast majority of them are relatively straightforward, incredibly doable.Ìý That’s not an end point, by any means, this is about getting it right for Paul, for Ramanique, for the disabled students of today, so they can feel that irrespective of sight impairment, irrespective of any disability, higher education can be a route for them and can be a route where they are enabled to succeed in it.

Ìý

White

Lord Holmes and David Wallace of the Student Loans Company, thank you both very much indeed.

Ìý

As always, we want to hear about your experiences good and bad.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.Ìý You can leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Simon Highfield, goodbye.