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Helen Lewis presents a new series of encounters with innovative thinkers.

What are the goals in pursuit of which our ever-more-complex transport systems are designed? And could they be more focused on how real humans actually want to use transport, given all their emotional complexity and their wide variety of restrictions and priorities?

Yes, argue Rory Sutherland and Pete Dyson, authors of Transport for Humans. In this episode, Helen finds out why they think transport design logic has taken a wrong turn, and how they propose to reverse out of that, and achieve a less narrowly focused approach.

Producer: Phil Tinline