成人论坛

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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人论坛 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH

TX:听 25.04.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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Synthetic voice

Combat audio cues 鈥� on, enables additional accessibility audio cues to assist with combat and stealth.听 Navigational assistance 鈥� on 鈥� new game鈥�

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White

Regular listeners won鈥檛 be at all surprised to know that I am by no means a gaming expert, in fact I鈥檓 a complete novice.听 But I do have with me my producer, Beth Hemmings, who tonight will also be acting as my guide to gaming and explain some of that terminology, which is completely puzzling to me.听 We鈥檒l also demonstrate the way in which the gaming industry is trying to make its games more accessible.

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Hemmings

Okay, Peter, so we鈥檝e got all the accessibility options loaded up, everything, hopefully, that you should need to play The Last of Us Part 2.听 It is regarded as [air quotes] 鈥渢he world鈥檚 most accessible game for visually impaired people鈥�.听 I鈥檓 going to hand you the controller here, the PlayStation controller.听

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White

Okay.

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Hemmings

You鈥檒l feel, where your index fingers are, at the top鈥�

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White

Yeah.

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Hemmings

鈥�you鈥檒l notice there鈥檚 sort of like some trigger buttons.

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White

Little trigger buttons, like a gun trigger.

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Hemmings

That one is for aiming.听 So, when you hear鈥�

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Synthetic voice

You are crouched, you are in Thai grass. Semi-auto pistol, equipped.听

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White

Ooh, yeah.

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Synthetic voice

鈥�[indistinct words]

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White

Ooh it鈥檚 exciting.听 Ooh, have I killed any鈥�

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Hemmings

Oh.

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White

What happened?

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Hemmings

You were killed.

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White

Oh dear.

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Well, Beth, you didn鈥檛 have to sound quite so happy about it, I must say.听 Anyway, I have at least been resuscitated for long enough to complete the programme.听 And it is safe to say, I think, that gaming has moved on considerably since I played last, which was actually back in 1999, I think.听 It鈥檚 clear that the sophistication of games generally has evolved pretty dramatically over those years and the attitudes around accessibility of the people who make them are slowly catching up.听 In recent years, part of that drive for change, could be thanks to something called The Gaming Accessibility Conference hosted by a special interest group of the International Game Developers Association.听 Well, they鈥檝e a version of that in the USA but the European offering concluded today in London, at the Coin Street Conference Centre.听 Producer, Beth, is back to tell us more about it.听 So, Beth, I mean, what is it and what鈥檚 the structure of it?

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Hemmings

It鈥檚 a two-day conference that鈥檚 designed for the gaming industry so that they can improve their understanding of how to go about including accessibility features within their game designs.听 So, it鈥檚 an online and in-person conference.听 We were going to go to it, weren鈥檛 we Peter, but it turned out to be a bit more of a viewing party.

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White

Just people staring at screens鈥�

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Hemmings

Exactly.

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White

We didn鈥檛 think would make great radio.

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Hemmings

That鈥檚 exactly what I thought as well.听 So, people from the industry were sending in pre-recorded videos talking about advancements in accessibility from their studios and the respective projects that they鈥檙e all working on.听 All with the idea of inspiring their peers to really consider the possibilities when it comes to accessibility.

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White

So, why is this so important?

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Hemmings

Well, it comes down to the very fact that this conference exists in the world of gaming really.听 The video game industry has very few standards for accessibility.听 So, this conference is highlighting that growing numbers of developers are finally seeing the benefits of including disabled players and acknowledging what they can get from being included, like access to culture, recreation, gaming can be a really great place for socialising.听 But in terms of the way that developers are thinking, last year the RNIB did a study that found that more than 70% of game developers would like to see better knowledge sharing around accessibility and have better access to resources on how to do it right.听 So, this conference is a really good place to start, I think.

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White

So, the conference did talk about specific disabilities, what things were particularly relevant to blind and partially sighted people?

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Hemmings

Well, as you said, they covered a lot of things but I should just say here that accessibility for our community is far from perfect.听 As part of that same study, I mentioned, by the RNIB, they found that only 15% of developers have good understanding of the needs of gamers with sight loss.听 This is reflected, in many ways, because it can be very hit and miss as to what games you can play, depending on your level of sight.听 Having said that, there were some good things being spoken about at the GA Conference, as it鈥檚 referred to, Gaming Accessibility Conference, there鈥檚 a game called Sea of Thieves, which is available on the Xbox console.听 So, the player assumes the role of a pirate and you can go sailing, plundering and treasure hunting.

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Clip 鈥� Sea of Thieves

Captain Jack Sparrow but I suspect you already knew that.

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Because of the treasure Jack stole, a darkness followed him here and if it鈥檚 not stopped this world will sink into shadow.

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Hemmings

So, players of this game can really live out their Pirates of the Caribbean fantasy.听 That game, Sea of Thieves, was created in 2018 by a studio called Rare and since then they鈥檝e released 39 updates, which have all had accessibility improvements or entirely new features added.听 One of the game鈥檚 software engineers, Topher Winward, told the Gaming Accessibility Conference about the type of things that are available to blind gamers.

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Clip - Winward

The first and most obvious one is that most of our menus are narrated.听 If you move around, using the keyboard, mouse or Xbox controller the text to speech system will kick in and let you know what you鈥檙e looking at.听 When you level up in game or you hand in a treasure chest, we pop up a notification and we narrate that out loud.听 But this comes with many challenges, these are asynchronous and can appear at unpredictable times.听 And this is hard to balance 鈥� what鈥檚 high priority?听 You have to design these carefully.听 Text size is one of the most common accessibility concerns that people have, where it鈥檚 typically too small.听 In June 2020, we doubled text size across the board and then we gave players an option to lower it back down if needed later.听 We made sure that all interaction points in the game are narrated, so here you can see it says 鈥榩ress X to use cannon鈥�, this simplifies navigation and lets you know what item you鈥檙e about to use.

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Hemmings

So, I mean, all that stuff sounds good but like a lot of these modern games, Sea of Thieves isn鈥檛 perfect.听 But it鈥檚 a good example of how studios are demonstrating to others, you know, people that are within the industry, that blind accessibility can be done.

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White

And he was giving quite a lot of practical ideas there, so it鈥檚 not just talk, is it, by the sound of it.听 Anything else that piques your interest?

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Hemmings

Yeah, there were a few things.听 But one that did actually excite me, because it鈥檚 something that I would really benefit from as a gamer myself, it was a prototype that was developed by a totally blind gamer and accessibility consultant SightlessKombat 鈥� that鈥檚 what he goes by 鈥� and a woman called Cari Watterton from a studio called Rebellion.听 We鈥檒l hear a little bit more from SightlessKombat in a moment actually on a campaign that the RNIB have been working on.听 But this prototype of theirs, it鈥檚 designed for parts of games that require stealth.听 So, this is when you鈥檙e trying to sneak around enemies and often times you鈥檙e trying to take them out, quietly, without others knowing you鈥檙e there鈥�

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White

I could have done with this, couldn鈥檛 I, when I was shot?

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Hemmings

You could have, yeah.听 But they鈥檝e called their system Project Black Cat and they gave an exclusive demonstration at the conference of how it can work.

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Clip 鈥� Project Black Cat

Synthetic voice

Along cold corridor extends before you.听 Slightly ahead, to the right, is a wooden crate.听 At the end of the corridor, you see it turns sharply to the right.

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SightlessKombat

So, we have audio description built into the game itself.

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Synthetic voice

This crate could be a good place to hide.听 Press A to hide when near crate.听 A guard patrols ahead, you have no weapons but he has a knife on his belt.听 See if you can sneak up behind him and take him out with his knife.听 Press A when behind an enemy to perform a take down.

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SightlessKombat

Ooh, we might not get there, we鈥檙e going to turn.

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Hemmings

There were a few other things that we just didn鈥檛 have time to talk about today, including adaptations for deaf/blind gamers and there were other individual game developers talking about their games that have some good accessibility features for visually impaired people.听 Definitely something we鈥檒l have to come back to in the future.

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White

Indeed we will.听 Beth Hemmings, thank you very much indeed.

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Well, as Beth mentioned, SightlessKombat is a totally blind gamer and consultant but, more recently, he鈥檚 the accessible gaming officer for the RNIB.听 Now they鈥檝e recently launched their design for every gamer campaign or DFEG, as it鈥檚 been abbreviated to.

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SightlessKombat, first of all, tell us what it is, the campaign, and what its aims are.

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SightlessKombat

So, design for every gamer is RNIB鈥檚 new initiative that essentially is a rallying cry to the video game industry and to gamers who are blind and partially sighted to get involved as well and move accessibility forward.听 But it鈥檚 RNIB鈥檚 fundamental belief that, regardless of how you see, you should still be able to game.

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White

I mean I suppose the problem from a game developer鈥檚 point of view, is that it鈥檚 difficult enough for you to actually have to think about people who can鈥檛 see and then you come along to them and you say and hang on there are about 30 different ways that they can鈥檛 see.听 That is quite a challenge, isn鈥檛 it?

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SightlessKombat

Indeed, but design for every gamer is all about awareness raising as well, which is a key part of answering that challenge because during the livestreams that were hosted as part of the launch, we had a bunch of sight condition filters.听 They encompassed sight loss conditions like Stargardt鈥檚, glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, retinitis pigmentosa and little to no useful sight.听 And whilst they won鈥檛 represent how everyone with those conditions sees they are a definite step forward in showing this is some of the ways that people can be impacted and how your accessibility features could potentially help.

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White

Well, let鈥檚 hear what happened when sighted Twitch streamer Behaving Beardly had his screen hijacked by the RNIB.听 By the way Twitch is a livestreaming website, which focuses on video games being streamed live.

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Clip 鈥� Twitch

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You will experience what it is like to play with a sight limiting condition.

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Behaving Beardly

What?听 There it is [laughing].听 I鈥檓 being head tracked at the moment, my game player鈥檚 got a filter over the top.听 This first one is diabetic retinopathy.听 Basically, the whole game play is blurry, the colours are muted and there鈥檚 like a kind of 鈥� a watery fog effect on there, so a lot of the images are actually blacked out basically.

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SightlessKombat

The key thing to note is that people will still want to do things that they would otherwise be able to do if they鈥檝e got sight and one of those big things is gaming.听 I鈥檝e heard a few people say over the years 鈥� if I lost my sight, I wouldn鈥檛 know what to do but I鈥檇 still want to game.听 And, you know, the fact that game developers are becoming aware of accessibility and the needs of blind and partially sighted gamers that鈥檚 a huge thing.听 But DFEG is, as I said earlier, the real rallying cry to get everyone clubbing together to make this work on a long-term initiative as well.

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White

I mean just to look at it from the other end of the telescope, in a way, because you were talking there about people who lost their sight and would want to go on gaming but, I think, like me, you were actually blind from birth.听 I mean how did you get into gaming, given the fact that you鈥檙e having to tell them now how to do it, so how did you actually get the access in the first place?

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SightlessKombat

I actually tried PC games when I was much younger but I didn鈥檛 really know what I was doing, I didn鈥檛 know how screen readers worked, I don鈥檛 think I even knew they existed.听 But it was mostly just pressing buttons and nosediving planes into literally unseen territory.听 But then I tried audio only games, which were fun for me but not necessarily fun for any sighted people watching because they鈥檙e just mostly a black screen.听 And then I went from that to console games and pretty much haven鈥檛 looked back since.听 Gaming is very much a social cultural experience, you know, everybody coming up to you and saying 鈥� oh have you seen this new boss fight 鈥� I鈥檓 like, yes, I have, it looks really tough, I鈥檇 love to bel able to play it but I can鈥檛 because the game isn鈥檛 accessible.听 Part of design for every gamer is the user testing panel, the player panel and is looking for signups.听 So, if you鈥檙e interested in that you can visit the accessible gaming page of RNIB鈥檚 website.听 There will be opportunities available to talk to the industry, provide feedback and give valuable insights, I think is a good way to term it.

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White

So, just to look to the future, are there any upcoming games that you鈥檙e particularly looking forward to?

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SightlessKombat

Well, yeah, I鈥檝e got a few, definitely, even this year.听 So, me being a massive Star Wars fan, I鈥檓 very excited about Star Wars Jedi Survival, which is coming out in about a week.

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Saylor

Hi, I鈥檓 Steve Saylor, I鈥檓 a blind gamer, accessibility consultant and YouTube personality and I鈥檓 here today to talk about the accessibility features of the upcoming Star Wars game Stars Wars Jedi Survivor.

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Clip 鈥� Star Wars Jedi Survivor

Why 鈥� fight鈥�

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Cal duels a hooded opponent wielding a red-light sabre and is viciously disarmed.听

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鈥�when you can鈥檛 win.

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In the office鈥�

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What is your next move鈥�

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鈥�the Powen opens the case...

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鈥�J别诲颈?

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鈥�revealing Cal鈥檚 light sabre.

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White

Well, welcome to the programme Steve Saylor, good to talk to you again.听 So, if you could perhaps just tell us what the premise of this game is.听 I mean we know it鈥檚 a Star Wars game, of course, but it鈥檚 the second game in the series, isn鈥檛 it?

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Saylor

Yes, it is, yeah.听 It focuses on a character that is brand new to the Star Wars universe that was created in Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order, name of Cal Kestis.听 He was a kid who basically was in training to be a jedi but during the events of, what is called, Order 66, where all the jedi were being hunted, he was basically in hiding for a very long time until an incident happens where he, basically, finds himself that he鈥檚 not alone as the only jedi that鈥檚 out there.听 So, Jedi Survivor takes place five years after the events of the first game where Cal is basically on a mission to try to disrupt the empire, as it were, and try to bring some hope back to the galaxy.

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White

There鈥檚 clearly a lot of excitement about this amongst people who enjoyed the first one.听 You were one of the first people to play a four-hour accessibility preview of the game, could you just explain how it can be accessed by people who are blind or have low vision, like yourself?

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Saylor

Well, the great thing about the Jedi Survivor, of what I鈥檝e played so far, is that it definitely improves on accessibility of the first game.听 I was lucky enough that I was able to play the first game when it came out but it still with a little bit of difficulty, just being able to read the text that was on screen and also being able to track where enemies were.听 I will say that the game is definitely improved a lot since then, the text size has been redesigned so that it can actually be able to be increased or decreased as it were; there is a bit of navigational assistance, you can be able to navigate the map a little bit easier.听 Also, another additional features, that I really loved, was the ability to be able to switch the cameras between different targets when you鈥檙e attacking different enemies at once.听 And also, the game speed option was super key for me, especially in this kind of a game where combat is the sole focus, being able to slow down the game enough so that I can be able to hit those dodges when I needed to was super key in being able to play.听

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I will say that it鈥檚 probably not fully accessible as both SightlessKombat and myself would have wanted for blind and low vision players but, like I said, it鈥檚 definitely an improvement.

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White

So, what does need to be improved, you want to be a bit more specific about what you would do?

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Saylor

For instance, being able to have something like say a high contrast mode, that is something that was introduced in The Last of Us Part 2, essentially you kind of mute the colours of all the environments and sort of 鈥� it turns your character into sort of a blue colour and your enemies into a red but you can customise the colours of that as well.听 So, being able to do that kind of helps distinguish where the enemies are in case of the environment that you鈥檙e in.听 And then also, as well, I wished it had more text narration, unfortunately, it does not have that in the game, at least at this time, as far as we know.

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White

Well, we spoke to EA Games and they told us that in future updates the high contrast mode and menus narration will be available.听 Is that what you鈥檙e expecting and how much will this improve your experience?

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Saylor

It would definitely improve a lot, for sure.听 Because of my vision I have to actively focus on so much that鈥檚 happening in the game it can cause fatigue, which lessens the amount of playtime I can have.听 So, something like eye colour and dress mode and menu narration will sort of prolong those game play sessions.

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White

We鈥檝e heard a lot of good intentions on this programme, Steve, so far, I just wonder how you, as an experienced player, how complete do you think the industry鈥檚 commitment is to this?

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Saylor

I鈥檝e seen a lot more conversations happening at studios that are wanting to be able to push for more accessibility.听 So, I think, that we鈥檙e in 鈥� the state of the industry, we now understand the why accessibility is important, it鈥檚 just now developers are figuring out the how.听 So, I would say probably within about like five years from now we鈥檒l definitely see a lot more games being regularly being produced that are a lot more accessible than they currently are.

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White

Well, I guess, in that case we鈥檒l be hearing perhaps a good deal more from you over the next five years.听 Steve Saylor, thank you very much indeed.听 And thanks also, to SightlessKombat.

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Do tell us your experiences of playing video games, will you be trying out the new Jedi Survivor or does the very concept of gaming just not appeal to you and if not why not.听 Let us know.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can leave voice messages on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Nat Stokes and Simon Highfield, goodbye.

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