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IN TOUCH – A Transport Special

TX:Ìý 13.06.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý FERN LULHAM

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White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, something of a transport special.Ìý Later, why the bus journeys of the future are on display on Wolverhampton.

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Clip

When you use the regular NaviLens app, let’s do it.

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Service exit to Birmingham.Ìý National Express Ways Midlands, departs in six minutes.

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So, it’s announcing the destinations as we’re moving along the line.

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White

More on why the West Midlands is setting the tone for the future.Ìý But we’re starting tonight with where and how we’ll be buying our train tickets in future.Ìý And whether the answer to that has taken account of the needs of many visually impaired travellers.Ìý

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It’s no secret that there’s a major controversy underway about the future of the station ticket office.Ìý It’s one of the chief stumbling blocks to a settlement in the long running stand off between rail unions, on the one hand and train operators on the other.Ìý We know that the general secretary of the RMT union, Mick Lynch, has written to the consumer watchdog Transport Focus, asking them to investigate press reports that at least one train operator has stopped the sale of cheaper tickets over the counter.Ìý And we’ll be hearing the minister for railways rehearsing some of the financial reasons for closing station ticket offices.Ìý We’re hearing rather less from visually impaired people who say they rely on station ticket offices if they want to continue to buy their tickets independently, either because they struggle to use ticket machines or because they haven’t mastered smartphones on which they could access the appropriate apps to buy a ticket online.Ìý But we have been receiving emails from a number of you about this, people like Steve Workman.

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Workman

My wife and I go to our small local station, which still has a ticket office, there a staff member always searches for the best available and cheapest tickets for us.Ìý I hope this continues.

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White

Then there’s Margaret Deans.

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Deans

Booking offices are vital if you can’t use the touchscreens to buy tickets.Ìý They also explain multiple fares and help us plan our routes for journeys.Ìý One of your contributors said he can’t use the screen so just buys a ticket on the train.Ìý That’s fine if your area allows it.Ìý From Penzance now there is a penalty fare so you must book before travel.Ìý I didn’t know that as I can’t read the information posters.Ìý So, how will we manage without a booking office if we can’t use a screen?

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White

And there are more.Ìý One person who doesn’t seem to have forgotten the needs of this group is Labour MP Graham Morris, who raised the issue of a press report that Northern Rail had withdrawn the sale over the counter of some cheaper tickets at a recent meeting of the Transport Select Committee.Ìý He put this point to railways minister Hugh Merriman.

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Clip – Select Committee

Morris

One of the key issues initially was the proposed closure of ticket offices and not that it’s a trusted source of information but the Daily Telegraph recently reported that the government were running down ticket offices and yet they were telling some train companies to stop using ticket offices to sell cheaper advanced tickets.Ìý Is that true Minister?Ìý I mean if it is it’s outrageous.Ìý And if it is, would you take steps to – urgent steps – with the train operators, with the rail companies to tell them to stop this discrimination?

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Merriman

I hadn’t taken you as an avid reader of the Telegraph Mr Morris but I am aware of that story.Ìý I can tell you it is not the case at all. ÌýI think what that relates to and I’ll write to the committee to be absolutely sure, I think what they were getting to was there was an on the day ticket which, in certain circumstances, was not being sold on the day, it was being sold in advance, so I think it was just a correction that actually that type of ticket is supposed to be sold on the day.Ìý I’ll write to you to absolutely confirm but I know it was one particular matter so, quite frankly, two and two has been put together and it was more than five on that particular story.Ìý There is no intention but we have got a situation and I know that you’ve written to me and I’ve just recently written on this, whereby we only have 12% of sales of tickets, or I should say, passenger journeys that are being transacted through the ticket office but we, by and large, have the same number of ticket offices that we had 30 years ago.Ìý The figure was about 34% of all tickets sold from a ticket office about 10 years ago, so it’s changed dramatically because people are buying remotely.Ìý And this is why I feel that this will be a policy that will ultimately benefit the passenger.

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White

But MP, Graham Morris, persisted.

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Clip – Select Committee

Morris

I understand what you’re saying minister but please don’t lose sight of that 20% or whatever the percentage is, I do accept it’s declining, of passengers, a very large percentage of those will be elderly, they’ll have mobility issues, disabilities – I’m thinking of my elderly mother, she doesn’t have a smartphone, if she couldn’t buy from the ticket office, she wouldn’t be able to travel.Ìý So, we mustn’t discriminate so that they have no opportunity to use public transport.

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Merriman

I couldn’t agree more.Ìý I mean the figure is 12% but I maintain that if you take that person from behind the screen and actually have that person more interactive on the station platform, they can help somebody in terms of buying a ticket from the machine, if they don’t have the ability digitally but they can actually teach them how to buy digitally as well and then actually help them get on the train as well.Ìý So, to me, it’s a plus.Ìý It’s the way the direction of transactions is going but it also allows a passenger to get a better personal experience than I believe they get right now.

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White

Rail minister Hugh Merriman.

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Well, we did request an interview with Northern Rail to try to clarify the issue of whether cheaper tickets had been withdrawn from sale over-the-counter, they declined to put up a spokesman but they sent us this explanation.

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Statement – Northern Rail

Advance purchase tickets were created to offer the best fares to those who plan their journey will in advance of travel, with the very cheapest price available the further ahead the customer books.Ìý The price of an advance purchase fare increases in stages with the last and final price point available up until five minutes before departure.Ìý Sales of this product at ticketing offices are very small and make up less than 10% of sales on the day.Ìý In those circumstances for over-the-counter sales made close to the five-minute cut off Northern staff may have been asked to process a last-minute sale for a service that the customer subsequently went on to miss, leaving them without a valid ticket for travel.Ìý As such, since November 2022, Northern no longer sales over the counter advance purchase tickets for same day travel.Ìý We do, however, continue to sale them for journeys happening the next day.Ìý Customers will still be able to book same day advance purchase tickets up to the five-minute limit independently via our ticket vending machines and online through our app and website.

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The very websites and ticket machines that some of our listeners tell us they find impossible to use.

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So, a small adaptation Northern Rail is saying.Ìý To try to get a little more clarity on this we’ve turned to Tony Miles of the magazine Modern Railways.

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Tony, what do you make of this – a small adaptation or an indication of direction of travel as far as selling tickets over the counter is concerned?

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Miles

It is quite a concerning story.Ìý I noticed the Secretary of State completely misunderstood the question.Ìý I understand in this specific case it’s a product which may vanish but certainly while it does vanish it seems to contradict the spirit of what ticket offices are supposed to do, if not the rules, they are supposed to provide someone who walks up and says – I need the best value ticket because I’ve very little money – they must sell them the best value ticket available.Ìý Directing people to only being able to buy certain products via touchscreens, which they may be unable to use or find very difficult to use, would, at the very least, require an equality impact assessment and I doubt whether Northern carried one of those out before stopping selling a certain type of ticket.

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White

What do you make of the minister’s sort of vision of helpful ticket staff out on the platforms and concourses rather than in the ticket office giving visually impaired customers sort of lessons in how to use ticket machines and smartphones?

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Miles

If it’s done right, it probably could be – and I’m being very careful how I phrase this – it could be a good thing.Ìý My worry is that somewhere down the line, in a couple of years, this much more available supportive – I’m here for you when you need me – attitude is suddenly seen by the ministers in power at the time as expensive and they say – well, perhaps actually we could just get rid of staff altogether.

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White

And there is the question of actually if you’re blind finding one of these random ticket sellers on the platform.Ìý I mean if they’re in a fixed place maybe but if they’re just sort of wandering about it could be quite tricky for blind people to actually locate them in the first place.

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Miles

I suspect you could come up with a simple solution whereby perhaps by the door on the way in there is an easily identified button to press that says – I’m arriving on your station and I’d like you to come and help me.Ìý So, again, it’s one of those things where we could do it right and we could make it work better but I’m not sure whether the impact assessments and the actually processes will be talked through with the right people.

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White

This does seem to be a key sticking point in the industrial disputes but, you know, with the best will in the world from the union’s point of view this is more about protecting jobs than it is giving a good service to visually impaired people and, you know, the ticket machines, because they’re just screens, they are pretty much impossible to use, aren’t they?

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Miles

They are and at the moment they don’t offer the full range of tickets that the industry is obliged to supply.Ìý So, we also need technology, even for people who can see what the screen’s saying, the screen doesn’t tell them all they need to know.Ìý It doesn’t even do discounts for railway employees who are entitled to a discount as part of their job, so they have to go to the ticket office to buy tickets themselves because they can’t get them off the machines.

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White

But it’s got to be resolved sooner or later, hasn’t it?

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Miles

Yes.Ìý So, first of all, we need clarity what ticket offices, while they exist, should be selling and there are some legal requirements is there, if five minutes is too short time to sell a ticket then make it 10 minutes.Ìý And then if windows are going to be closed and staff are going to be on platforms, there’s a lot of processes that need to be sorted first if they’re going to be selling tickets in any way out on the platform, what if they’re carrying cash.Ìý There’s a lot of steps to take first and we’re running before we’re walking.

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White

Tony Miles, thank you very much indeed.

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And if all that makes you think it might be time to give the bus another try, Wolverhampton might be a good place to start.Ìý They certainly think so.

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Spinks

So, we’re standing in Wolverhampton Bus Station and what’s interesting here is that we’ve got a mix of tactile markings, so these are quite easily discernible tactile markers on the floor that are running at right angles throughout the building to various different departure points.Ìý And then we’ve got these brightly coloured QR codes, called NaviLens codes which are actually placed alongside the tactile lines.

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White

Big transport hubs aren’t the easiest places to navigate your way around in you’re blind.Ìý A lot of ambient sound, lots of setting off points, stands, sometimes irregular distances apart but what you can hear now is Robin using the latest wayfinding technology, along with his smartphone, to figure out where he needs to be to catch his bus.

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Smartphone

Departs at 1536.Ìý Go straight to exit to Castle Street, exit to Castle Street or [indistinct words]…

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Robin

There we are Stand S.Ìý

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Smartphone

…Castle Street, exit to Castle Street.

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White

We’ll be joining him to see how he’s getting on in a moment but, first of all, we’ve been joined by Gary Leek, who’s integrated information system specialist at Transport for West Midlands.Ìý Gary, there’s been quite a lot of technology tried out over the years to make buses more accessible, you know, onboard bus announcements, talking bus stops, what’s different about what you’re offering here in Wolverhampton?

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Leek

The difference we’re offering here is this is almost cutting-edge technology in terms of providing accurate information to passengers, giving passengers the ability to find their way through a transport network.Ìý This initial trial, at Wolverhampton, is just within the Wolverhampton Bus Station building but we have got plans to roll this out as a wider trial.

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White

In the simplest terms, how does it work and do keep it simple, if you can?

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Leek

All you would need is a smartphone, you would need to load the NaviLens app on to that and then at the bus station there are a number of codes, around about 40 codes, that are dotted around the bus station at key points.Ìý Just start walking around and the app will pick up the nearest code it finds and will give you information about exactly where you are and tell you what your options are next, so whether that is navigating to a different place in the bus station or directing you to a bus station stand to catch a bus service or giving you information about the facilities at that station.

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White

The problem with such systems has often been that there’s almost too much information, which you have to scroll through to get what you want, how does the user get NaviLens to target the information that you actually want?

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Leek

The way that we’ve done the trial is to almost fit it into two different sections.Ìý So, you have the codes that tell you where you are at the bus station and where to go next.Ìý And then the different codes actually at the stands to tell you what bus services there are there to catch.Ìý It’s a case of trying to find the right level of information to give to people, obviously you can give them too little as well.Ìý So, we’re trying to find that balance.Ìý And through the feedback that’s the sort of thing we want to do.

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White

Let’s re-join Robin, Robin Spinks of the RNIB, they’ve been collaborating on this project.Ìý So, Robin, how’s it going and you know how has it worked out in a real-life situation?

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Spinks

Well, you know for any of us with lived experience of being blind or partially sighted we want to be as independent as possible, what’s great about this system is that you can turn up, you’re not reliant on assistance, I opened the app as I was approaching the bus station, I couldn’t see the code but my smartphone could and it read the code, told me that I needed to keep going forwards to get into the bus station.Ìý And then it gave me a decision point which asked me where I wanted to go, gave me some options to go to different stands etc., to go to lockers, toilets etc.Ìý So, it’s all about presenting the user with choices and enabling people to be as independent as possible.

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White

We talked about ambient sound and we can hear quite a lot of ambient sound around you.Ìý Does that make it difficult to use though, I mean bus stations are notoriously noisy?

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Spinks

You’re absolutely right and it could make it difficult to use.Ìý I think the thing that’s been helpful for me is to use earbuds that allows you to take in that audio but also to be aware of what’s going on around you.Ìý So, it’s not going to work for every person but, you know, my suggestion would be if you haven’t tried it give it a spin because it’s a great sense of freedom and it’s about exploring all of the solutions that are out there and giving people the chance to try them out.

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White

I mean I can remember Elsie the talking bus stop, we’re going right back to the last century.Ìý How does this compare with other schemes that have already been tried?

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Spinks

I think one of the things that’s attractive about this from an operators’ point of view is that you simply you need to create the codes and then place them in the appropriate areas, so they have to be measured and put into the right spot to be detectable or for the detection to be optimal.Ìý But, you know, you’re not looking at a huge amount of infrastructure, you don’t need to install any beacons or any wires or you don’t have to interact with the wi-fi system.Ìý So, I guess from an operators’ perspective it’s quite an easy way to actually take an environment and transform it into something that uses codes to give people that independence and that choice.Ìý And to use your phone to detect it, once you’ve done that once or twice, it’ll become something that you can just rock up and do without any fuss.

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White

It’s still another thing that depends on your being a fairly confident user of the smartphone.Ìý Some people have taken to this like ducks to water, others haven’t.Ìý What thought is being given to help the group that hasn’t?

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Spinks

I think for us, you know, our technology for life service, that would be a great starting point or indeed pop along to a local group and just give it a try.Ìý It sounds like it’s quite hi-tech, it’s incredibly simple to use once you get started.Ìý And I think the key thing here, Peter, is that it will work on android and IOS, so we’re not channelling people towards necessarily an expensive smartphone option, you could get started with a very simple handset that’s got a two-digit price tag.Ìý Give it a try and let us know what your feedback is.

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White

Just want to go back, finally, to Gary.Ìý What’s the timescale on this?Ìý I mean you’re gathering information at the moment, when might we see this not only in Wolverhampton but in other parts of the West Midlands and therefore, by definition, in other parts of the country?

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Leek

This is a six-month trial at the moment, we’re round about halfway through that.Ìý We are really reliant on that feedback to understand how we take this forward.Ìý Spending public money is quite heavily scrutinised.Ìý But it’s a brilliant system, it works really well, we’ve had some fantastic feedback from users so we are extremely keen to keep it going.

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White

And we’ll be interested to hear any feedback that people have.Ìý Gary Leek, Robin Spinks – thank you very much indeed.

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That’s all for today.Ìý Do continue to share your travel experiences with us.Ìý What you found most helpful and least helpful as well.Ìý Email intouch@bbc.co.uk.Ìý Leave voice messages at 0161 8361338 or go to our website for more information and you can download tonight’s and other editions of the programme from there – bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Fern Lulham and studio managers Sue Stonestreet and Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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