成人论坛

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人论坛 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� Travelling Abroad

TX:听 14.05.2024听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

听

听

听

White

Hello.听 It was 20 years ago this month 鈥� no, not a spoof of Sergeant Pepper 鈥� that this company got started.

听

Latif

We take small groups of travellers to selected destinations all over the world and these groups are made up of sighted and blind travellers.听 We basically want blind travellers to have the independence to make decisions of what they want to do and match them up with the sighted travellers who want to do the same things.

听

White

Well, the Traveleyes menu of assisted holidays for visually impaired people is back in business, after a covid created layoff, and its founder is one of the guests on this travel special.听 But if Amar Latif is a renowned traveller, so is another guest today.听 When Hayley Kennedy touched down in Libya, at the end of last year, she had visited every United Nations鈥� country 鈥� all 193 of them.听 Hayley is believed to be the only disabled person, let alone the only visually impaired person, to achieve this, although somebody will probably get in touch now and say they鈥檝e done it too.

听

Hayley, welcome to the programme.听 Did you set out to do this or did it just happen to you?

听

Kennedy

Hi everyone, thanks for having me.听 It just kind of happened.听 I started travelling in my teens.听 One of my first proper trips was to Namibia for five weeks through World Challenge and I just fell in love with travelling and made it my priority.听 When I was 27, I found out鈥� I was diagnosed with Stargardt鈥檚 Disease, which is a form of macular degeneration, where I鈥檝e lost all my focusing cells and that鈥檚 caused me to totally look at my life and what I wanted to do and travel became that priority.听 So, when I got to my 100th country, which was Barundi, I suddenly thought 鈥� I wonder how many countries there are and I was over half way, so kept going and then when I got to about 150-160, I was suddenly like this is possible, I鈥檓 going to do it.听 So, I did.

听

White

And what about actually getting about, I mean what鈥檚 your method of mobility, especially in countries which, perhaps, you know, we complain about the roads here but some of the tracks in foreign countries are pretty difficult to navigate at the best of times?

听

Kennedy

However, I鈥檓 pretty crazy.听 So, I prefer to travel solo.听 My phone has become like my best friend 鈥� I use the camera to magnify 鈥� but in countries where I know logistically it鈥檚 going to be super challenging I do tend to join tour groups where I will explain to people about my visual impairment and areas where I might need help.听 I guess I鈥檝e kind of learnt to be a bit fearless and kind of not afraid of falling over or tripping up or whatever and definitely learnt to laugh at myself.

听

White

So, have all these trips been leisure or have you managed to combine them with work as well?

听

Kennedy

Oh, I definitely love a good business trip where I can tag on a weekend trip at the end or something like that.听 The majority have been leisure but I am very lucky in my job that I do get to travel out to the Middle East and to Asia and the US.

听

White

Right.听 Still, being an experienced visually impaired traveller doesn鈥檛 necessarily protect you from hassles and variable treatment.听 Dawn Hopper, from Northern Ireland, has family in Switzerland and her husband has family in Spain, I think, so they travel quite a lot.听 But she鈥檚 just been through a situation with Ryan Air which caused her a lot of stress and which was only resolved two days before she was due to return from a family wedding in Italy.听

听

Dawn, this is all to do with flying with your guide dog, explain what happened.

听

Hopper

I am a relatively new guide dog owner and I have not let my sight loss stop me doing that travelling.听 It鈥檚 something that I feel very passionate about.听 So, because this family wedding was in Rome, we were all flying out with Ryan Air.听 And myself and my husband booked the tickets as usual and I emailed them, back in January, and explained to them that I have a guide dog and could they put me up the front or else reserve a seat beside me.听 They basically came back and said I couldn鈥檛 sit in the front row because it was an emergency exit.听 They offered me the second row but said I have to pay for an extra seat.听 So, essentially, what they wanted me to do was to pay to bring my guide dog on board.听 And that led on to a barrage of emails back and forth, trying to explain to them that my guide dog is a labrador retriever, it鈥檚 the most common brand of guide dogs, he will not physically sit in the standard seats of Ryan Air鈥檚 flight, it鈥檚 just physically not possible.听 The Ryan Air cost of the ticket was 180 euros.听 It was extremely upsetting for me, as a traveller with a guide dog, and never experiencing this problem before, I just felt that they really were discriminating against me being visually impaired.

听

White

So, at the point where you were about to fly out what was the situation then?

听

Hopper

They still had not changed their point of view on this鈥�

听

White

So, you flew out not knowing whether you鈥檇 be able to fly back with the dog unless you paid for an extra seat?

听

Hopper

And when I emailed them to pay for the seat because I then get nervous their email came back to me saying 鈥� you will be able to fit the dog in your seat, that is what we normally do.听 And I just couldn鈥檛 believe this.听 And, as you say, two days before we were due to fly back from Rome, I received a letter, an email letter, from Ryan Air saying that they had found two seats for me up the front in row two.听 And, ironically, these are the exact seats in the first email that they wanted me to pay for.听 So, until the very last minute, they did not give in.

听

White

Just to go back a little way, did you ever contemplate not taking the dog?

听

Hopper

No.听 The family wedding was a week and that鈥檚 far too long for me to be apart from the dog.听 He has never not gone abroad with me, so I depend on him so much.

听

White

Now, it did end happily and I know you鈥檝e said to us the crew and the assistance you received coming back couldn鈥檛 have been better and you eventually didn鈥檛 pay for the seat, so, why does this still matter, do you think?

听

Hopper

I鈥檓 part of a group called the Belfast See Change Campaigners and it鈥檚 a group of visually impaired people who want to see change happening in our society and this is one of the areas that I really feel it needs to be bigger.听 I feel that the legislation needs to support guide dog owners.听 What we鈥檝e done is we will be engaging with the Equality Commissioner and the Consumer Council as well in a group collaboration with RNIB and Guide Dogs.听 And really all we鈥檙e saying is do what you鈥檙e meant to do for the law but put in place a policy that means if a guide dog owner wants to fly, they do not have to pay for it and they don鈥檛 have to go through the anxiety I did.

听

White

Well, we checked as well to see what the Civil Aviation Authority has to say about this, they鈥檙e the aviation regulator, they say, in their guidance: 鈥淎irlines must accept all assistance dogs for air travel without charge.听 Dogs will normally sit in the space on the floor in front of the seat.听 Many airlines will seat passengers with guide dogs in the front row, if possible, where there鈥檚 usually a little more space.听 If it is not possible for the dog to sit there or the dog is of a larger breed鈥︹�� as Dawn鈥檚 is, they didn鈥檛 say that I did, 鈥溾�� then an airline may charge for a second seat in order for there to be enough floor space for the dog to lie down.鈥澨� So, they do say that charges, as things stand at the moment, can be applied, Dawn.听 Just your final thoughts on that before we move on?

听

Hopper

Yeah and it鈥檚 a really good point, which I was aware of.听 But when the Civil Aviation say 鈥� if the dog is a larger breed 鈥� Micky is a standard sized labrador retriever, a standard sized guide dog, there鈥檚 no Jack Russell guide dogs鈥�

听

White

No, they鈥檇 be a bit snappy anyway, the old Jack Russell.

听

Hopper

Yeah.听 So, I feel that is not considering what breed the dogs are for the purpose that they鈥檙e bred, such as guide dogs.听 I think we need to be more realistic about what guide dogs are, what assistant dogs are and realistically look at the environment we鈥檙e bringing them in.

听

White

Right.听 Ryan Air haven鈥檛 provided a response.

听

Now I know both Amar and Hayley have got lots of experience of flying.听 Amar, let鈥檚 bring you in, what鈥檚 your own experience and presumably you鈥檒l also have noticed a lot of other people鈥檚 treatment as well, given your job and your company, you鈥檙e not always a fan of airports I gather where there鈥檚 often perhaps even more problems than on planes.

听

Latif

Yes, quite often, it depends which airport, some are less helpful than others but often when you鈥檙e booking assistance, it can be quite tricky.听 So, as a blind person, when you鈥檙e arriving at the airport, there鈥檚 always this grey area where how do you get out your taxi and get to the check-in desk, that鈥檚 always a bit of problem and they always say 鈥� Oh, you need to go to the disabled bays, pick up the phone 鈥� and I鈥檓 like 鈥� Okay, I鈥檓 coming in a taxi 鈥� Oh, the driver will know 鈥� and in almost 90% of the times the drivers don鈥檛 know what you鈥檙e talking about.听 Then when you鈥檙e flying around the world and you get special assistance, it鈥檚 great, you know, a blind person can go from A to B no problems but when you鈥檝e got a layover of about six hours in Singapore Airport, you know, they take you to a waiting space and they say 鈥� Sorry, we can鈥檛 take you round the shops and stuff.听 But, you know, trying to always be positive I鈥檝e found that like by being nice to them I鈥檝e found that, you know, I can go and get my duty-free shopping.

听

White

Yeah but I mean you say鈥� you talk about that in Singapore Amar, that can happen in Britain.听 We鈥檙e in Manchester, we鈥檙e broadcasting from there, it鈥檚 certainly happened to me there where they鈥檒l kind of plonk you somewhere and leave you waiting for that assistance without any indication of when it might come.

听

Latif

Yes and I would say from all the airports that I鈥檝e travelled, Peter, I鈥檝e found that Manchester is one of the worst ones for special assistance.听 I don鈥檛 know whether they are always understaffed, I don鈥檛 know what the problem is but they鈥檙e considerably worse than Heathrow and Gatwick.

听

White

Well, we did put these issues to Manchester Airport and they told us: 鈥淲e aim to make sure all our facilities are accessible and recently we were awarded the highest rating from the Civil Aviation Authority for our services for disabled passengers.听 But we are always looking to improve where we can and continually review our practices.听 We鈥檒l use this feedback to make improvements in future.鈥�

听

Let me bring in Hayley because you have an issue about allocated seats, don鈥檛 you?

听

Kennedy

Yeah, well, I have a lot of issues with airports as well to be honest.听 So, I鈥檝e only been back in the UK about 11 weeks, I was living abroad, so I鈥檝e got back and I鈥檓 doing a lot more travelling to Europe now and I鈥檝e travelled with Wizz Air three times and every time it鈥檚 been a fairly horrendous experience.听 So, if you book special assistance, you can only sit in one of 12 seats, which is kind of near the back and generally I鈥檓 given a window seat, which near the back in a window seat is not my preference at all.听 But if you don鈥檛 book special assistance, you can then pay for whatever seat you want but then you don鈥檛 get special assistance.听 So, it doesn鈥檛 really work for me and it doesn鈥檛 really take into account that everyone who has a disability will have different ways of coping or different ways they鈥檝e learnt to adapt but it doesn鈥檛 take into account any personal needs.

听

White

Well, we asked Wizz Air about this, they said: 鈥淪pecial Assistance seats are grouped together for practical and safety reasons, in case of an emergency.听 Passengers with sight difficulties, hearing impairments, intellectual or development disabilities requiring assistance we seat in the first and last rows, so that the crew can access them as quickly as possible in case of any emergency situation.鈥澨� So, lots of issues still about the whole business of flying.

听

Amar, let鈥檚 come on to Traveleyes.听 Many In Touch listeners will know the principles behind Traveleyes and its sort of business model 鈥� cheaper deals for sighted people happy to act as guides, not carers 鈥� I think you emphasise 鈥� but it was that principle which made your company particularly vulnerable to the effects of covid, wasn鈥檛 it and resulted in you having to close for four years.听 So, now that you鈥檙e opening up again, the trips having just started, have you had to put any changes in place?

听

Latif

Peter, yes, you鈥檙e absolutely right because our sighted travellers are not often connected with our VIPs 鈥� our visually impaired travellers 鈥� they鈥檙e all strangers so, yeah, when covid hit, we would be classed as what they used to call super spreaders, you know.听 And after the first few years, when the travel industry got up and running, we were on the last ones that could ever actually get up and running.听 So, I was quite keen to find a way to get Traveleyes back on its feet but to make it even more robust than ever before because it鈥檚 so vital 鈥� being blind myself, being rejected by group tour operators, I know how important it is for a blind person to be able to travel.听 And, let鈥檚 face it, I鈥檓 not getting any younger, Peter, so I just wanted to create a system that would allow Traveleyes to be long running, after I鈥檝e gone.听 And the way that we鈥檙e doing that is we鈥檝e teamed up with a bigger tour operator and we鈥檙e working closely with them.

听

White

I mean is there any danger that that will compromise the extent to which your trips are very much focused on offering adventurous and challenging trips to blind people?听 After all, before, you were entirely the boss and your whole thing was give visually impaired people exciting travel, they may be more nervous about this than you are.

听

Latif

Well, there is an element of they鈥檙e maybe a little bit nervous because it鈥檚 the first time they鈥檙e doing it but I鈥檓 very much in charge, I still own Traveleyes, I鈥檓 still involved but, yeah, so we鈥檙e working with HF Holidays and they do specialise in walking holidays but what we do is we continue offering the vast range of holidays that Traveleyes is known for.听 So, we have activity holidays like, you know, doing things like sailing, walking holidays but we do discovery tours to far flung places, you know, we learn about the different cultures and we have sun holidays as well.听 So, those holidays are still going to continue and help to bring some more interesting walking tours as well.

听

White

A lot of the local sight loss voluntary organisations in this country used to be able to offer trips away but now most of them are saying that they can no longer really afford to do that, they鈥檝e suffered from covid as well, there are all sorts of other issues, getting volunteers, have you considered filling this gap in the market for blind people who can鈥檛 afford the kind of bigger more expensive holidays that you鈥檝e tended to specialise in?

听

Latif

So, our holiday prices do range, so, you know, if somebody is on a lower budget there鈥檒l be some UK trips that you can look into.

听

White

I want to bring Hayley back.听 Given the amount that you鈥檝e travelled I鈥檓 just interested to know, and you can be as provocative as you like, what your take on specialist holidays for visually impaired people is?

听

Kennedy

I鈥檝e actually never been on a specialist holiday.听 I tend to use two tour companies called [indistinct word] Travel and Young Pioneer Tours and I鈥檝e got to know the owners and the guides and explained the support I need and generally they鈥檝e been great.听 There鈥檚 been lots of times where we鈥檝e been late hiking down a mountain and I end up having to hold people鈥檚 hands and they get me down eventually kind of thing.听 I generally say to people, if I look lost, I am lost even if you鈥檙e standing like two metres away from me, so just come and get me, kind of thing.

听

White

Would you book with a company like Traveleyes or鈥�?

听

Kennedy

I鈥檓 going to look into it now because I didn鈥檛 know it existed.

听

White

Yeah, because there are people, I think, who would say 鈥� I don鈥檛 want to spend the whole of my two weeks or one week or whatever it is, with a lot of other visually impaired people 鈥� people do take that attitude, I wonder if that鈥檚 your point or whether it鈥檚 something else that you鈥檝e never actually tried it.

听

Kennedy

One, I didn鈥檛 really know it existed and I do a lot of solo travel, so I鈥檝e just kind of got on with stuff.听 I think it鈥檚 really interesting to understand how different visually impaired people deal with things.听 Like I totally learn to adapt constantly, like everything is always changing and people can have ideas of how to manage things way better than I potentially have thought of.听 So, I always think it鈥檚 a learning exercise where things can be made easier for you by people who have been through it before you.

听

White

Well, we鈥檙e going to have to leave it there for today but marathon travellers all 鈥� Hayley Kennedy, Amar Latif, Dawn Hopper 鈥� thank you very much.

听

We want to hear your reactions to what you鈥檝e heard in the programme, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听

听

From me, Peter White and producer Beth Hemmings, goodbye.

听