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This is the full transcript of Ouch –the cabin fever podcast as broadcast on 22nd January 2021 and presented by Emma Tracey.

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harvey - May we have your attention please? Please do not leave cases or parcels unattended anywhere in this station. Any items are likely to be removed without warning.

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[music]

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EMMA - That voice belongs to the one and only Harvey Price. Harvey is autistic, he’s visually impaired, and he has Prader-Willi Syndrome, along with other learning disabilities and health needs. Harvey’s also the focus of a new ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ One documentary, where he and his celebrity mum, Katie Price, search for a suitable specialist residential college that he can go to when he leaves school later this year.

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[music]

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EMMA - You’re listening to the Ouch podcast. I’m Emma Tracey, and this is my chat with Harvey and Katie. I started off by asking what was going on for them that day.

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KATIE - My house is full of five children. Home schooling. Them making a mess. Getting told off. And now I’m sitting down here with Harve, putting pasta on for him.

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EMMA - Is Harvey having to stay at the moment? He’s not being able to be at school?

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KATIE - Yeah, you see, Harvey’s having to stay at home as well, but I’m trying to, like, keep in contact with the school. I’m just having it with the Social at the minute, because the state, the government, you know, they pay for him to go to school, they’re saying to the school, "Well, we’re not paying for him to go to school, we’d rather pay for people at home to home school him." So while they argue it out Harvey’s at home with me.

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EMMA - And how’s that going?

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KATIE - Just a few holes in the walls and him having a party for one at night; when you wake up he’s eaten all the food.

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harvey - I.

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KATIE - I know you have, Harve. Yeah, and don’t swear.

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HARVEY - All right, don’t panic then.

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KATIE - All right. So it is quite hard work, yeah, because, you know, in the mornings, like, he’s wet the bed and stuff, so I’m having to do the bed, do the others… It is manic, I’m not going to lie, and I’m trying to do the press and all of that for the programme. But it is what it is. [laughs]

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EMMA - Harvey, would you prefer to be at school or are you preferring to be at home?

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HARVEY - Home.

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KATIE - Yeah, he loves being at home. Who with? Me?

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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KATIE - You see, he loves it at home with me. So that’s the trouble as well, he’s loving it and I’m like, oh, give me a break! [laughs]

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emma - Does anybody come in or anything?

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KATIE - We’ve got Kalila who’s been working with him for seven years at school, she comes when she can. It’s between me and her.

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EMMA - Is home Harvey’s happy place do you think? Is that where he’s as much himself and, you know, as comfortable as he can be?

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KATIE - Yes, he absolutely loves being at home. And it’s weird, because when people come to the house they’re like, "How can he be blind?" because he just knows his way around and knows where everything is. And it’s only the moment you step outside you notice that he can’t really see the ground properly and then he becomes vulnerable. But round the home you would never notice what he’s like, he’s just one of the others. It’s more his behaviour and stuff that worries me more, it’s not his eyes, because he doesn’t know any different, and he’s fine with that.

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EMMA - I bet you’ve been asked to make documentaries with Harvey and about Harvey so many times. Why did you and Harvey decide that this might be a good time?

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KATIE - Well, that’s a good question because yes, I’ve always been asked, and obviously Harvey’s grown up with me doing reality shows, but reality shows are different to documentaries. This one, it’s the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳, it’s a respectable channel, and the producer I’ve known for over ten years, Hannah, she’s such a lovely, sensitive woman as well. She’s known Harvey since he was a baby, known me, because she filmed with me years ago.

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And that’s another thing, who you meet on the way up you always meet on the way down, because she was, like, a tea girl then and now she’s, like, the producer, director and stuff. So when they came to me and said, you know, about what they wanted to do I was a bit, like, "Oh, I’m not really sure if I want to expose Harvey in every way." But then we sat down and I thought it was right, because he’s 18, he’s an adult, and it was a good way to show a documentary of him transitioning into college and having an independent life.

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And I want it to be educational to people out there, that it is different when you’ve got a child with complex needs. The paths you take are different, the forms you have to fill out, the… Just everything is so different, it’s so stressful. And it’s hard to do. And just to show, you know, the reasons why it has to be done, because everything has to be in place for him as well. And also, he’s become an adult, not to have to rely on me, not to need me, so he can make choices so he can start a social life and just give him a chance really. Because he’ll be there till he’s 25.

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EMMA - I mean, it feels like an awful long time away, but have you actually started thinking about what might happen after college? My goodness, it’s such a long time away but you’re always thinking about him.

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KATIE - Yeah. Back at home with me. [laughs]

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emma - Will he? Is that what you want?

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KATIE - Oh, I can’t leave him, I hate leaving him now, but he needs to do this and just to learn some life skills and, like, he does like to help around the house. He likes to make orange juice now, he likes to help with cooking, so I think it will do good for him and help him excel in the areas that he’s good at. Like, his books, I want him to bring out books, and he loves music, he likes making music, pictures, and just he’s very creative, just to give him that chance.

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EMMA - To reach his potential.

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KATIE - Yes. And that’s why it’s also hard to find a college, because there’s lots of colleges that you can go to for complex needs, but they specialise in different areas, so with Harvey, because he is so complex, there’s only a handful of colleges that are right for him.

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EMMA - Yeah.

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KATIE - But then when it comes to his behaviour and that they’re put off by it because he does need hands on care 24 hours. So at the school he goes to now he’s one of the most able ones there, but yet his behaviour’s the most complex.

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emma - So have you found a college?

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KATIE - The one I looked at, National Star, is brilliant, it’s got so much there to offer him, and he was happy there, that’s the main thing. He ended up being really happy and I wanted him to kick off, you know, when he has a little meltdown, to see how they would handle him. Because to me, I don’t want him to visit a college where he’s on his best behaviour, because for me, I need to know how they would handle him.

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There were other colleges we saw and he might have started to have a meltdown, they sort of backed off. Do you know what I mean? It’s got to be home from home, because I don’t ever want to see him sectioned because I know a lot of children with autism, or adults, they mistake that for mental health, because it’s not mental health, and they get sectioned. And then once they’re in that it could take five years to get them out. And if they had the right care and the right people who understand that wouldn’t be happening.

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EMMA - Do you feel a lot of pressure to find spaces and people for when you’re not there so that that doesn’t happen to him?

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KATIE - See, this is the thing, this is why I can’t leave Harvey with anybody. Unless you know exactly how to deal with Harvey it would be a danger, not just for himself, but everything around him too. And that’s why I could not believe when I read about this section and the lady I saw in my documentary, how her son is obviously different to Harvey but had got autism, that was arrested and then sectioned, and I couldn’t think of anything worse with Harvey, that if he was locked in a room and they don’t understand him he would kick off, go absolutely nuts.

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And they would sedate him, that’s what they would do to calm him down, when really all you have to do is talk to him, ask him what he wants, and he’d probably just want me. And oh, it’s so upsetting, I can just imagine what some cases and what families are going through. It would be awful. That’s why it’s important to me to find the right college, people who do understand Harvey so it would never get into that situation. Because I know Harvey’s trigger points, I know what triggers him off. And once you know them you know how to talk him out of it.

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EMMA - I noticed some stuff in the documentary like you and Harvey doing scripting, so doing the same sentences back and forward, and having loads of little tools and hacks to sort of keep focus and keep calm and keep moving forward if things get a bit tricky.

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KATIE - Yes.

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EMMA - Can you tell people who don’t know, what are they and how did you learn to do that?

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KATIE - Oh my God, don’t! The amount of times I’ve been on the train or the plane with Harvey in public places, people must think, what on earth are they talking about? He’ll say, "Gary" and I have to say "Barlow". And everyone goes what, Gary Barlow. And it goes back to when he was on the Queen’s Jubilee. I have to finish his sentences. A lot of it I think’s anxiety, and another thing, it’s a comfort thing for him. But everyone who knows Harvey, we all do the same.

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EMMA - Do you just follow Harvey’s lead?

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KATIE - I suppose it’s like anyone, you grow up learning English or you grow up learning a language, I’ve just grown up with Harvey learning his quirky little ways; that’s him. But if someone new comes in then it’s hard because they have to learn it all, and that’s why I can’t just have any carer here, I can’t just have anyone, you have to know Harvey and Harvey’s ways.

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EMMA - Yes, absolutely.

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KATIE - Like, if I walk out the room and there’s someone new in the room, he’ll say to them, "I’m starving," even though he’s not, because he knows I’m not in there and they’ll give him food if he says he’s starving. He knows exactly what he’s doing.

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harvey - What’s Cole said?

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KATIE - "What would you like on your pasta?" Cole said, and Mummy said, "I will do it for you."

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HARVEY - Cheese.

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KATIE - Well, unless you want to go out there and do it with Cole.

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cole - Who do you want to do it, Harvey?

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HARVEY - Mummy’s the best.

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KATIE - Right, well if Mummy’s the best then wait for Mummy.

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emma - Does Harvey want to talk?

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KATIE - I can sit next to him. Yeah? Because he’s getting frustrated because he wants his lunch, but I have the times of things, so we’ll both talk, shall we, Harve?

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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KATIE - Right, and then once we’ve done this you can have your pasta what Mum’s cooked for you.

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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KATIE - Right.

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EMMA - Harvey, I see from the documentary that you like frogs. What’s the best thing about frogs?

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HARVEY - Being a bullfrog.

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EMMA - Oh, right. Tell me about a bullfrog.

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HARVEY - We use tadpoles.

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EMMA - Yeah? And what do bullfrogs say?

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harvey - Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit, ribbit.

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EMMA - My son loves frogs as well, he’s got pictures of frogs and he’s got toy frogs. Have you got toy frogs as well?

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HARVEY - No.

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KATIE - Yes, you have!

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HARVEY - Yes.

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KATIE - You’ve got lots of toy frogs. He’s got the… The thing is with Harve and frogs, he’s got, like, grandpa frog…

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HARVEY - Oh, yeah.

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KATIE - What other frogs?

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HARVEY - A baby.

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KATIE - Baby frogs. What other frogs? Bullfrogs.

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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KATIE - What other ones?

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HARVEY - Squishy frogs.

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KATIE - Squishy frogs. The thing is, he does drawings of all different frogs, like, alien frogs.

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HARVEY - Oh, yeah.

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KATIE - I’d love to get inside his brain sometimes. And he just makes up frogs, different shapes and sizes, and they all have different names. That’s why I want to do the books with him, because he writes stories with them.

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EMMA - He’s got a big imagination.

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KATIE - Yeah, he loves it. And what do frogs sit on?

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HARVEY - Lily pads.

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KATIE - They do, don’t they?

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HARVEY - I know, Mum.

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KATIE - Yeah.

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EMMA - And what do they eat?

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katie - What do they eat?

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HARVEY - Flies.

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KATIE - Yeah. That’s right. That’s what they do. You’re a good boy aren’t you?

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HARVEY - I know, Mum.

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KATIE - Yeah.

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EMMA - And you like trains as well?

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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EMMA - What is the best train and what route does it go on? What journey does it have?

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HARVEY - Gatwick Express.

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EMMA - Ah ha. And is that because it goes to the airport?

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HARVEY - It’s Gatwick Airport.

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KATIE - Where does it start from? Brighton. And then where does it go?

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HARVEY - To Gatwick.

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KATIE - And then after Gatwick where does it go?

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HARVEY - London Victoria.

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KATIE - And what stops?

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HARVEY - I don’t know.

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KATIE - You don’t know today?

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HARVEY - No.

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KATIE - Oh, okay. I said to him earlier, "If I want to go to Reading or Oxford what trains go there?"

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HARVEY - London Paddington, Great Western.

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KATIE - There you go.

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EMMA - Do you watch videos of trains, Harvey?

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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EMMA - What’s your favourite train video?

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HARVEY - Gatwick Express. I am obsessed. Twelve car.

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KATIE - It’s got 12 carriages?

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HARVEY - Yes.

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KATIE - What do you like about the Gatwick Express?

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HARVEY - On the first class.

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EMMA - Everybody loves first class.

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HARVEY - I know. [laughter]

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EMMA - Would you like a job with trains? Is that what you’d like to do when you finish college?

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HARVEY - Yes.

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EMMA - What job would you like to do?

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HARVEY - Sit in a chair and video it.

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EMMA - Well there are people who do that aren’t there?

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HARVEY - I know.

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KATIE - What about, what do you say, the announcement? What do they do for the announcement?

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HARVEY - May we have your attention please? Please do not leave cases or parcels unattended anywhere in this station. Any items are likely to be removed without warning.

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EMMA - That’s a lot of things to remember isn’t it?

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HARVEY - I know, tell me about it.

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KATIE - But he does love trains, he loves frogs and that’s all he draws, don’t you, Harve?

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HARVEY - I know. Mummy.

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KATIE - I know, Harve.

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EMMA - And taking pictures. You love taking pictures?

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HARVEY - Oh, yes.

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KATIE - He’s so good on his iPad, like, you know with an iPad it can come with a pen and you can draw on it, but he likes to do it with his finger and the pictures he draws with his finger on his iPad are amazing. I’m going to print them off, but I keep saying, and everyone says I should put them in a gallery or sell them off for charity because he does such amazing, like… It just makes you wonder what goes through his brain, how he sees things and stuff, it’s like, it’s really different and colourful. You’re very clever, Harve.

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HARVEY - I know, Mum.

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KATIE - I know too.

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EMMA - Did we establish, have you secured National Star, or are you still waiting for people to say yes and funding and all that stuff?

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KATIE - I haven’t secured it, I wanted to see another college in Exeter, but now because of all this COVID, although you could see a video I don’t want to see a video, I feel you have to go there. You have to go there to visit these places and get the feel of it and take Harvey. I still want to look somewhere else to know it’s perfect for him, not just, oh yeah, that will do, because he’s got to be there till he’s 25. Although they do review it I’ve been told after every two years. He might have to start this all again, if he deserves the placement there and all of this.

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EMMA - It’s such a learning process. I mean, all the parents of disabled people I’ve spoken to say that it’s just all the paperwork and the paperwork. Do you get any help with that? Is there any help available?

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KATIE - This is what else I like to explain in the programme as well, is I am not very good at technology, because a lot of things you can fill out online. That is just not me, I’m not a fill out online… To print things out, I’m useless. So there are people you can call who will send you the paperwork and they help you fill it out. If you ask, there are people who can actually help you fill out these forms, make sure you get the right forms. Because you have to get it all right for him. His care plan and all of that has to be spot on.

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EMMA - And that’s a big document, the care plan, isn’t it?

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KATIE - Oh my God, is it? It has to be right because that really does affect where he goes. I’m lucky with Harve as well because all the doctors have always been involved, the school occupational therapist, speech therapist, all things like that, we have all that input, and obviously at home, and the more stuff you give the better it is for him.

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EMMA - The filming, you did lots of visits, it was in a pandemic, what was that process like, you and Harvey getting to the college, getting round the college?

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KATIE - It was difficult with Harvey, because when you say residential, he loves where he goes now so he’s got used to that, so when I say we’re looking at another one he’s quite confused. When I said, "You’re going to go there in a year," because he doesn’t understand why he has to leave the other one. So there were a few challenges, you’ll see it in the documentary, there were a few challenges. And then once we were there at one of them he didn’t want to get out of the car.

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So you’ll see him having a little meltdown, but then once he’s there and he’s happy then he’s fine. Because I said, "All right, we’re not staying here, we’re going home after. You’re just looking." So it’s how you communicate with him and how you talk to him. But he loved National Star. But he them round his finger there as well, he has a tendency to do that.

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EMMA - Oh my goodness, he’s so charming.

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KATIE - Yeah, oh he does. I don’t know how he does it but he does.

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EMMA - How have you found is the best way to prepare Harvey for change?

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KATIE - Well, I’ve got him a little place now to help transition him. So he’s got a house, although it’s just opposite me, so we’re there all the time. We’ve got cameras in it, so… He’s got carers here, he’s got his own kitchen, bath. It’s three bedrooms basically, so it gets him used to his own environment and his own space. And he loves it, absolutely loves it. He Facetimes me. We speak to him through the cameras and he looks at the camera. And it’s safe because there’s nothing he likes…

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When he’s at home, like I say, in the night he’ll raid the cupboards, because he’s got his Prader Willi’s, and that’s not healthy for him, whereas here there’s nothing he can get out of the cupboards, because I don’t leave anything in it that he can get and eat. Obviously he’s got tins of food and stuff like that, but he’s not interested in eating that. And he knows it’s his space, so he feels like a man. If I say, "You’re a boy," what do you say, Harve? Are you a boy, Harve?

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HARVEY - No.

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KATIE - What are you?

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HARVEY - A man.

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KATIE - Yes, you’re a man now, that’s why you’ve got your man house haven’t you?

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HARVEY - I know, Mum.

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KATIE - So it’s getting him ready for, like, residential. When you go to college, Harve, this is like what it’s going to be at college isn’t it?

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HARVEY - Oh, yeah.

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KATIE - Your kitchen, your bathroom.

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HARVEY - Oh yes, Mum.

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KATIE - You love it. And when he brushes his teeth and stuff like that, he likes to video it and show me because he likes the praise. So I think it’s doing him really good coming here, yeah, helping him transition. But not everyone’s lucky enough to do that. But I just, I just want it so right for him.

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EMMA - Say if he was going on holiday next Thursday would you start talking about it?

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KATIE - If I said, "We’re going on holiday next week," that’s all I’ll hear about, he’d be so excited. The only problem is about that is the aeroplane. So if we’re going to Spain or somewhere, an hour’s flight, you don’t get the flatbeds do you? So he’s like, "I want to lie down flatbed, pyjamas." I’m like, "No, Harve, you’re not on a long haul flight," in other words, not business class or first, because as a kid he’s been used to traveling like that. You know, when we go to Spain we go on EasyJet or something and we love it, but he always thinks that every plane he goes on has to be a flatbed. So trying to explain that to him is difficult on the plane.

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We had a bit of trouble on a plane not so long ago where he didn’t even want to come off the plane because he wanted to stay on holiday. Everyone had to come off the other end of the plane. Then he kicked off and then all the armed police came, because they didn’t understand. I said, "It’s fine, he’s got autism, he just doesn’t want to get off the plane." He was trying to smash the phones off the wall in the airport and tunnel. Oh my God, it was a nightmare. That’s because he didn’t want to get off the plane, he wanted to stay on holiday but he didn't understand that you have to get off the plane. So, he does have his moments, but then if I’m going to the shop and he doesn’t want to go he’ll start kicking off.

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So I have to find ways to get him to come to the shop. It’s a long… It’s not like the kids where you say, "Right, put your shoes on, we’re going," with Harvey you have to prepare him. So that’s why I respect that when we’re out and I see other people with kids who are maybe like Harvey or in wheelchairs and stuff like that, or adults, I appreciate what they’ve gone through to get them to the shop, even just to get them out the house. I appreciate it, but until you live it and breathe it a lot of people don’t understand.

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EMMA - I just want to ask about COVID. How have Harvey and you coped with the pandemic? How about masks and things like that? How’s that been?

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KATIE - With Harvey I just don’t let him out unless it’s for a walk or something. But no, I’m so petrified, because he’s one of the extremely vulnerable, that I don’t take him into the shops or anything like that at the moment at all.

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EMMA - He’s all right with that because he likes home.

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KATIE - Yeah, he hasn’t got a problem, he’s at home loving life, whereas me with the kids and all of that, the kids get bored and you can’t really go and do much, but it’s like everyone, you have to deal with it and we just have to get on with it. Stay in and stay safe. You know, I’m quite a rebellious person but when it’s something like this you stick to it because you have to respect other people, and you just want life to try and get back to normal.

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EMMA - Do you like being famous, Harvey?

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HARVEY - Yeah.

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KATIE - Do you know what famous means, Harve?

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HARVEY - What?

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KATIE - He doesn’t. Do you know, Harvey has no idea. Like, when we go out everyone recognises Harve, and they come up to him and ask for a picture, and he loves it because he likes the flash on the cameras because it reminds him of lightning outside. Whenever it’s lightning or thunder outside it he loves it and records it on his iPad. He has no idea. Just like with the trolling, no idea he gets trolled, doesn’t know what it means, and he doesn’t know that everyone knows him either. But it’s humbling, it’s nice for him to be like that.

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EMMA - But he likes the attention though? Does he like the attention?

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KATIE - Yes, he loves the praise, but then any child does. But, like I say as well, he doesn’t know any different, he’s just been brought up this way as well. So, thank you.

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EMMA - Thank you so much, Harvey, thanks for speaking to me as well.

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KATIE - Say thanks, Harve.

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HARVEY - Thank you. Bye.

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[[music]

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EMMA - I really enjoyed that chat with Harvey Price and Katie and there’s so much more I could have asked. UK viewers can watch their documentary, ‘Katie Price: Harvey and Me’, on Monday 25th January at 8.30 pm on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ One and ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ iPlayer. We’d love it if you could subscribe to the Ouch podcast on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Sounds. You can also get in touch with us by emailing Ouch, O-U-C-H, @bbc.co.uk and find us on Facebook and Twitter by searching for ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Ouch. Thanks for listening. Bye.

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