成人论坛

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Christmas Episode

20th December 2021

bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

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Presented by Emma Tracey

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Emma -听听

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Hello and welcome to this festive special episode of the 成人论坛 Ouch podcast, It鈥檚 a Disability Thing and it鈥檚 [in chorus] Christmas!

I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and as you can hear I鈥檝e got Beth Rose and Keiligh Baker with me. Hello.

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Beth -

Hello.

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Keiligh -

Hi.

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Emma -听听

It鈥檚 been a strange old year, hasn鈥檛 it? So, we here at 成人论坛 Ouch thought we鈥檇 look back at some of our favourite podcast episodes from 2021. Some were sad, some were happy, but all were, we think, insightful. So, let鈥檚 start by talking about our year, our 2021. Beth, what was your year like?

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Beth -

Well, it was a year of two halves really actually. Obviously the first part we were at home. I was in London doing all my Ouch recordings from my flat. And then latterly I got to go home and visit my family, so that was a big thing for me. Obviously the 成人论坛 Ouch team has been behind me and my park running career. You鈥檝e enjoyed my weekly updates on how slowly I can manage that. But also big news: today me and Keiligh have met for the very first time in real life. We鈥檙e actually in a studio, sat next to each other, with 2m between us. But yeah, it鈥檚 the first time we鈥檝e seen each other in the flesh and not on a Zoom call, so that is very exciting.

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Emma -听听

I鈥檓 pretty jealous, it has to be said.

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Beth -

I know. You鈥檙e up in Scotland, aren鈥檛 you, and we are missing you.

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Keiligh -

We are.

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Emma -听听

I miss you all a lot. Actually at this stage I鈥檓 really keen to get back and see you all and work collaboratively 鈥� that great word. But I am in Scotland making podcasts from my garage. I鈥檝e managed to get home to Ireland a couple of times, which has been just a real winner for me. It鈥檚 fed my soul. I鈥檝e got to see my family and it鈥檚 been absolutely lovely. We鈥檝e had a lot of building work done on our house, which I talk about quite a lot in our daily meetings. And working from home with builders coming in and out all the time has been interesting I would say. So, yeah that鈥檚 my year in a nutshell. What about you, Keiligh?

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Keiligh -

Yeah, it鈥檚 been a weird one. I鈥檇 kind of forgotten actually that I was still shielding at the beginning of the year. I only thought about it earlier when I looked over at Beth and I was like, this is the first time we鈥檝e met, we鈥檙e in a studio, and from April I was recording everything from my bedroom at my parent鈥檚 house in Wales. So, this seems really strange because it doesn鈥檛 feel strange anymore, seeing people in real life.

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Beth -

Well, the funny thing for me, so the last time I was in the office was I think March 19th 2020 and it was to record the very first cabin fever.

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Keiligh -

Wow.

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Beth -

Which I think it鈥檚 gone vintage now, right? I鈥檝e not listened back. I bet it鈥檚 a bit of a terrifying listen because we had no idea what was coming around the corner.

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Keiligh -

Well, actually when you were talking as well about getting home you didn鈥檛 have your Christmas until when?

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Beth -

No.

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Keiligh -

When did you have your Christmas?

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Beth -

I think we had it in end of May this year. So, all the presents had been wrapped ready for Christmas under the tree, and then by the time we actually got round to having our Christmas day and opening them no one could remember what was in the wrapping paper. All the tags were really cryptic. And also it鈥檚 made this year鈥檚 Christmas shopping much harder because we only had six months to think of new ideas.

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Emma -听听

Some of the biggest news stories of the year: COVID, climate change, the space race, we鈥檝e covered them all with our unique and disabled outlook on the world. Let鈥檚 start with one of our most recent episodes. Beth, what was your biggest highlight of this year, or one of them anyone?

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Beth -

So, one of my favourite podcasts this year was meeting two of the ambassadors from Mission AstroAccess. And that鈥檚 a brand new space firm, a bit like SpaceX and all of those that we hear about. But it鈥檚 all about making the space industry and space travel both inclusive and accessible. So, at the moment we know about NASA astronauts and they鈥檙e kind of the cream of the crop. There鈥檚 the famous saying they鈥檝e got the right stuff, which basically means they are brilliant at everything, they are impeccable when it comes to physicality and intellect and ideas. But actually do you know what, that doesn鈥檛 really help us going forward into space travel because the human race is entirely different, good at all sorts of different things and have different needs. So, Mission AstroAccess is making space travel inclusive. And just a few weeks ago in October they took their first crew of 12 ambassadors who are all disabled and all brilliant scientists, and they went on their first parabolic flight; which you might have heard be called the vomit comet. So, basically it鈥檚 an aeroplane, it鈥檚 a Boeing 727, it鈥檚 not kitted out like your regular aeroplane though. And they fly very high up into the sky and they do these arc shapes. And as they tip over the top of the arc so gravity disappears and they experience weightlessness like they鈥檙e in space. And so I spoke to Sina Bahram and Mary Cooper, both from America, who had just come off this flight.

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[Interview extract] What was it like that very first moment when you experienced zero gravity?

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SINA-

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Magical. And I don鈥檛 really use that word to describe things, but magical, absolutely joyous.

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Beth -

Is there any way to describe it? Is it like being in a swimming pool or is it just completely different?

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SINA-

No. Mary, I'd like your thoughts on this, but it鈥檚 not. That's what everybody says, it's like swimming. No. It's not that you're floating up, it's that you're no longer getting pulled down.

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MARY-

But a lot of people have that sensation because it is one of the closest things you can describe it as. I think someone on our team described it really well: as a child you used to pick dandelions and you would blow them and the white flakes would go off and you make you a wish. It felt like that, like being one of those flakes just in the wind, and you have really no sense of where you're actually going.

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SINA-

Every assumption that you have. For example, being blind I'm very aware of my environment. I have to be, I can't just rely on looking over, 'Oh, the coffee table's over there', you're paying a lot of attention to your body, to am I brushing up against something? And for all of the things that have remained invariant in your life, which is to say gravity, down is down, up is up, for that to be released, for that constraint to be redefined, you know you could look at it as kind of scary. That's not the emotion though. It was just sheer joy. You're sitting on the ground; you push up so much as with on finger and you're floating. This is what you see in Mary Poppins, it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I think for all of us, at least for many of us, we've been dreaming about this our entire life. In some of the pictures I like 100% have my eyes closed, and it's not because they shouldn't be open because I can't see much from them or anything. It's because I just wanted to concentrate on that sensation of just bliss that came over during the experience.

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Beth -

I just loved hearing the wonder in their voices. These are important scientists, so Mary is at Stanford University and Sina is a whizz at computer science. But taking that aeroplane I think has just changed everything for them. And they weren鈥檛 there just for fun; they did some experiments. So, Sina, as he mentioned is blind, and so his experiment was to use audio beacons to navigate, so sounds to be played and he would know where he was in the cabin. But they didn鈥檛 work. They did not hear a single audio beacon go off, because basically the environment is so loud that it didn鈥檛 cut through the noise. But, and this is amazing, when they yelled 鈥榝eet down鈥� which is basically signalling it鈥檚 the end of weightlessness, come down and find your seat, the body and mind remembered where they had to go back to.

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Emma -听听

That鈥檚 so interesting.

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Beth -

And it wasn鈥檛 just Sina that experienced this; it was all the blind crew and those with low vision. Their bodies somehow knew, which they weren鈥檛 expecting, which is amazing.

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Emma -听听

I reckon I鈥檇 be the one person that wouldn鈥檛 know. I reckon I鈥檇 be the one person still upside down when everyone else is鈥�you know like musical chairs when you鈥檙e still dancing. Oh my gosh, so many questions. But they were just like kids; they were so excited and so happy and it was just a real joy to listen to their experience, and a real advert for more of this I think.

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Keiligh -

My big question though is, when you were talking to them, did it make you want to do it?

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Beth -

You know what afterwards I googled how much it would cost: $5,000.

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Keiligh -

Oh, I thought it would be worse.

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Beth -

Which I think is actually almost worthwhile saving that money and doing it, because how incredible would that be.

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Keiligh -

I would do that if I had the money. I don鈥檛. I work for the 成人论坛! [Laughs]

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Beth -

Well, it somehow seems like an almost seamless Segway into our next podcast, which is about climate change, because of course 2021 big year for climate change. And Keiligh was onto it.

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Keiligh -

I was. Well, I mean obviously it鈥檚 just been one of the big topics of the year, hasn鈥檛 it? I think every other conversation begins with a C word: it鈥檚 either COVID or it鈥檚 climate change. But yeah, it鈥檚 been a really interesting year in terms of developments and stuff. But we wanted to focus on how climate change is impacting on disabled people. So, to mark COP26 taking place in our very own Glasgow, not far from you Emma, we decided to look into that. I knew nothing about how climate change was impacting on disabled people. And when I started looking into it, I don鈥檛 want to scare people, but I was horrified. Disabled people make up a really massive part of the population, there鈥檚 one billion of us on the planet, and a lot of the time we are poorer or perhaps we have less access to services and stuff. So, as part of this research I ended up speaking to some very interesting experts in their fields. So, I spoke to Dr S茅bastien Jodoin, and he told us this really interesting story. It鈥檚 shocking but I think it really sums up the situation quite well.

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Sebastien -

[Interview extract] July 2018 in my home town, I鈥檓 from Montreal, there was a heatwave that killed 61 people. And of these victims a quarter had schizophrenia, which is about 500 times their share of the population. And so the question is why would people who live with schizophrenia die at such high numbers in a heatwave. So, there is an element to the fact that they will often be using medication that makes you less tolerant to heat. Antipsychotic drugs make you less tolerant to heat basically, so they have this underlying effect. There are many other medications that have this type of effect as well. So, many people who are also on certain medications or many people who have chronic illnesses, such as mine, it's a very common symptom to be more sensitive to heat as well. But for the most part it鈥檚 really tied to their underlying levels of poverty that they experience disconnect from social networks and family. And obviously the city did not have a plan to think about, oh okay, this group might be more at risk; we鈥檇 better have something in place to we reach them and ensure that they鈥檙e safe. So, ultimately we see these kinds of stories all over the world, whether it鈥檚 when there are bushfires and there isn鈥檛 a plan to evacuate people who are wheelchair users or who may need to move in medical equipment; whether it鈥檚 the context of hurricanes where shelters don鈥檛 have ramps. So, we see this story time and time again.

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Keiligh -

I just find it really sobering. I鈥檇 never thought about having schizophrenia and how mental health could actually lead to that kind of situation happening.

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Emma -听听

Yeah. And I think often we talk about disabled people and how disabled people can be more friendly to the environment and we can pull our weight and what we can do to live more sustainably. But actually the more important thing is that we鈥檙e remembered when a climate emergency, that we had no hand in, actually takes place. I remember reading a lot on social media when there were big power outages in California, and people with ventilators and other equipment really, really struggling. And a big social media surge within the disability community to help each other. That was a really interesting thing to follow on social media at the time. And I think we get forgotten sometimes, don鈥檛 we?

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Keiligh -

A 100%. And also it鈥檚 something that keeps happening. The strangest thing is the authorities and the people that are in charge don鈥檛 seem to be learning from these massive incidents. Going back to Katrina, and that was a while ago now, there was a real issue then with evacuation buses coming along and they didn鈥檛 have wheelchair access. So, people that use wheelchairs were quite literally being left behind when they were evacuating. Another issue they had during Katrina was there weren鈥檛 any sign language interpreters on the news talking about the updates and everything, so again people were being left behind across the board.听

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Emma -听听

Yeah.

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Beth -

I think the interesting thing, and also a bit of a scary thing, because these are really shocking facts and situations, especially the schizophrenia and ventilation ones. But I did a piece fairly recently about an artist called Carrie Schmitt who in her 30s discovered she鈥檚 allergic to heat and the sun. That鈥檚 not a result of climate change, that鈥檚 just her body reacting to it, but she moved from Ohio to Seattle because it鈥檚 much cooler. But now with climate change sometimes Seattle is too hot for her. And if she gets too hot she goes into anaphylactic shock. So, she now has to find hotel rooms with certain air conditioning, or actually relocate to islands which are much cooler. So, I just think we鈥檙e going to see this more and more as a natural occurrence with all the stories we cover.

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Keiligh -

The things we鈥檙e talking about on this particular podcast and with Beth鈥檚 story as well they do sound really scary, and to be honest they are scary. But that doesn鈥檛 mean that we shouldn鈥檛 know about them. If anything it means that we have to know about them in order to tackle them. Whilst it鈥檚 scary knowing these things we also have to know these things. It is a matter of survival.

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Emma -听听

[Music] Speaking of being part of the conversation, back in January I interviewed Katie Price and Harvey, her son who is disabled. I think it鈥檚 one of my favourites from this year A, because obviously they鈥檙e celebs, that鈥檚 fun; but also I鈥檝e seen Harvey on lots and lots of interviews and lots of things, and it was my opportunity to speak to Harvey himself and to have a conversation with Harvey. So, we had a lovely chat about trains and frogs and all the things that he鈥檚 really, really interested in. And then we were then able to lead from there into speaking to him about his life and about his school and where he lives. And then I talked to Katie and Harvey about change and transition, because that鈥檚 a huge, huge thing for disabled people, the transition from school into adulthood and what services you go to and where you live. This clip that we鈥檙e about to hear is all about that and about how Harvey handles change.

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[Interview extract] The filming, you did lots of visits, it was in a pandemic, what was that process like, you and Harvey getting to the college, getting round the college?

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Katie-

It was difficult with Harvey, because when you say residential, he loves where he goes now so he鈥檚 got used to that, so when I say we鈥檙e looking at another one he鈥檚 quite confused. When I said, "You鈥檙e going to go there in a year," because he doesn鈥檛 understand why he has to leave the other one. So there were a few challenges, you鈥檒l see it in the documentary, there were a few challenges. And then once we were there at one of them he didn鈥檛 want to get out of the car. So you鈥檒l see him having a little meltdown, but then once he鈥檚 there and he鈥檚 happy then he鈥檚 fine. Because I said, "All right, we鈥檙e not staying here, we鈥檙e going home after. You鈥檙e just looking." So it鈥檚 how you communicate with him and how you talk to him. But he loved National Star. But he had them round his finger there as well, he has a tendency to do that.

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Emma -听听

Oh my goodness, he鈥檚 so charming?

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Katie-

Yeah, he does. I don鈥檛 know how he does it but he does.

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Emma -听听

How have you found is the best way to prepare Harvey for change?

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Katie-

Well, I鈥檝e got him a little place now to help transition him. So he鈥檚 got a house, although it鈥檚 just opposite me, so we鈥檙e there all the time. We鈥檝e got cameras in it, so鈥� He鈥檚 got carers here, he鈥檚 got his own kitchen, bath. It鈥檚 three bedrooms basically, so it gets him used to his own environment and his own space. And he loves it, absolutely loves it. He Facetimes me. We speak to him through the cameras and he looks at the camera. And it鈥檚 safe because there鈥檚 nothing he likes鈥�When he鈥檚 at home, like I say, in the night he鈥檒l raid the cupboards, because he鈥檚 got his Prader Willi鈥檚, and that鈥檚 not healthy for him either, whereas here there鈥檚 nothing he can get out of the cupboards, because I don鈥檛 leave anything in it that he can get and eat. Obviously he鈥檚 got tins of food and stuff like that, but he鈥檚 not interested in eating that. And he knows it鈥檚 his space, so he feels like a man. If I say, "You鈥檙e a boy," what do you say, Harve? Are you a boy, Harve?

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Harvey-

No.

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Katie-

What are you?

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Harvey-

A man.

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Katie-

Yes, you鈥檙e a man now. That鈥檚 why you鈥檝e got your man house, haven鈥檛 you?

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Harvey-

I know, mum.

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Katie-

So, it鈥檚 getting him ready for residential. When you go to college, Harve, this is what it鈥檚 going to be like at college, isn鈥檛 it?

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Harvey-

Oh yeah!

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Katie-

Your kitchen, your bathroom.

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Harvey-

Yes mum.

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Katie-

You love it. And when he brushes his teeth and stuff he likes to video it and show me, because he likes the praise. So, I think it鈥檚 doing him really good coming here, helping him transition. Not everyone鈥檚 lucky enough to do that.

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Emma -听听

Yeah.

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Katie-

But I just want it so right for him.

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Beth -

I just love the fact that Harvey鈥檚 got his own three-bedroom house, at 18, isn鈥檛 that amazing? But on a more serious note the documentary, and Emma your interview, it was just so refreshing to hear Katie Price and Harvey鈥檚 story away from the noise of all the celebrity stuff and the background stories that are always going on around them, and actually see them as a mother and son and a mother trying her utmost to get the right care for her son. And the amount of things she had to go through, all the visits they had to do, it was during the pandemic. She herself was in a wheelchair as a result of an accident. And just making sure that Harvey was happy and understood what was going on.

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Emma -听听

I know. And even all the media attention that they鈥檝e had later in the year and all that noise around them, I love having that memory of that great chat, and the love that comes across and how Katie wants the absolute best for him. And even the documentary in the pandemic it sounded like it was really hard. He couldn鈥檛 go to school, that was a big thing, he couldn鈥檛 go back to his residential school because of the first lockdown there was no school available. And that was really tough going for them as well. So, it really was a highlight. It just felt like a really good conversation and that I got to know Harvey a bit better than I鈥檇 managed to get to know him from YouTube or Instagram or any other chats that I鈥檝e seen on TV.

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Beth -

I do remember when we recorded the interview. So, Emma was obviously leading it and I was sitting in with her, and there was a press woman, as there always is in these kinds of high-profile interviews, and then there was Katie and Harvey was with Katie that day. And it was on Zoom, so really regular, so we all jumped onto Zoom. And the camera opened, as it were, we could see everyone, and Katie was an absolute glamour puss. The rest of us were just wearing no makeup, because lockdown happened, makeups gone, a top, whatever. I imagine Emma looks quite glamorous as well. But Katie Price was full on Katie Price.

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Emma -听听

Well, I love the way you say I鈥檇 imagine, I鈥檇 imagine Emma looked glamorous, because Emma didn鈥檛 have her camera on. I had no idea that everybody else had their cameras on. Katie never saw me and I was never in vision and we never got in picture because I couldn鈥檛 get my camera to work. So, it鈥檚 a massive missed opportunity and a pure blindy blunder there where I had no idea that everybody else was in one situation and I was in another.

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[Music] We鈥檝e done quite a lot of reality TV related stuff this year; more than we would usually do I think, haven鈥檛 we?

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Keiligh -

Yeah, we also did a podcast about Love Island because this year was the first year ever they鈥檝e had a physically disabled contestant on. But actually when we look back and we think about the history of Love Island perhaps not the first disabled contestant if we include mental health and things like that. But anyone the headline was First Ever Physically Disabled Contestant. It was Hugo Hammond. He was a 24-year-old PE teacher and he was born with a club foot. He said that you could only really tell when he was wearing no shoes because then he鈥檇 have a slight limp. Beth, do you watch Love Island?

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Beth -

No. So, actually I watched it on your behalf, Keiligh, because I knew we wanted to do something about how do you make Love Island accessible, and I was shocked.

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Keiligh -

Yeah.

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Beth -

So, I鈥檓 in my 30s and I was like yeah, I鈥檓 cool, it鈥檚 fine, I know what goes on in these reality shows. Love Island is like a totally different brand. I just don鈥檛 understand how they get away with a lot of the stuff.

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Keiligh -

Yeah, I鈥檝e always been a Love Island fan. I鈥檝e watched all the series, to my pride and shame simultaneously. But we got Kamran Mallick, the CEO of Disability Rights UK to come on and talk to us about what it would cost to adapt the villa.

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[Interview extract] Very, very generously you watched an episode, [laughs] as research for this podcast. From what you could see of the villa what would need to be done to make it accessible?

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Kamran-

Yes, so I thought before coming on here I should at least watch one episode, so I did. We mustn鈥檛 forget that impairment is not just about the physical mobility aspect, there are kind of cognitive impairments, visual impairments. But before you kind of get into all of that I think almost your starting point is to say you almost want to get an actual access type audit done, someone professional who would come in and say, 鈥淵es, these are the physical environment changes we want to make. These are some of the softer things that you should be doing, like creating quiet spaces.鈥�

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Keiligh -

Can you put a price on that? Do you have a rough idea of how much it would cost to put those adaptations in place?

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Kamran-

Huge variance. So, for example, allocating a space, that鈥檚 a quiet space, really there鈥檚 no cost to that, it鈥檚 just identifying a part of the villa where you accept that that鈥檚 going to be a quiet space for anybody, and so that there鈥檚 some no cost, very low and no cost options like that. To make contrast change on steps or if there鈥檚 glass, putting strips across to identify that there鈥檚 glass and a barrier there, again, these are very low cost. I think when you get into the higher end it鈥檚 always difficult to put prices on these because it depends on the physical building itself. But if you鈥檙e looking at lifts, you know, it could be between 拢10,000 to 拢30,000, but that鈥檚 a very rough ballpark kind of figure of what it might take. And that 拢10,000 to 拢30,000 is the cost that would be for a typical home in the UK. It鈥檚 always going to be more expensive if you鈥檙e retrofitting adaptations in, making adjustments.

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Keiligh -

Yeah. I鈥檝e heard that a lot, it does seem to be just so much easier and cheaper in the long run to just ensure buildings are made accessible from the start.

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Kamran-

Yeah, absolutely. And if you just think about the advertising revenue they must be getting from it, its popularity, it鈥檚 in series seven so it鈥檚 clearly incredibly popular, and therefore the levels of income that are probably being generated through it must be, you know, more money than I can imagine.

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Keiligh -

Also, quite famously in some of the earlier seasons people were really desperate to find places to have sex, so imagine how much fun they could have in a giant wet room? I think they went in an airing cupboard one year. Think how much more room there鈥檇 be in a wet room.

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Kamran-

Absolutely. And you always hear don鈥檛 you, accessible toilets are much bigger.

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Keiligh -

Yes. Yes, exactly. More manoeuvrability. [Laughs]

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Kamran-

Absolutely. You鈥檙e looking at between 拢5,000 and 拢15,000, depending on the size and kind of facilities.

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Keiligh -

I really appreciate that he gave us the price for the wet room for fun.

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Beth -

Exactly, just that clarification, just to bring it back.

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Emma -听听

I also really love that you got the CEO of a fairly major disability organisation to watch Love Island and then speak at length about it. I think that was quite a coup.

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Keiligh -

Kamran had done a lot of research and was an incredibly charming man, and I would love to talk to him about Love Island again in the future one day. I think maybe he鈥檇 watched more than one episode.

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Beth -

I think so. I was quite surprised though at how reasonably priced it would be to make the villa accessible.

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Keiligh -

Well, yeah because whether or not you鈥檙e a Love Island fan you can imagine a tropical villa on the Spanish coast. And obviously there are a lot of steps and a lot of patioed areas, there鈥檚 a pool and all that sort of stuff. And although Kamran a lot of the time was saying about how much those adaptions would cost in the UK, I think it is pretty comparable. Also we have aged out of it now, you realise that?

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Beth -

Have we?

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Keiligh -

We鈥檝e aged out, yeah.

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Beth -

What鈥檚 been the top age?

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Keiligh -

I think the top age was 31.

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Beth -

I have a contender.

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Keiligh -

You do have a contender. Seamless.

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Beth -

For Ouch listeners who have been with us for a while you will of course be familiar with the fabulous Simon Minty, who鈥檚 a very handsome man. He is now part of the Gogglebox team on Channel 4, so he is on primetime TV every Friday night talking about TV. I saw him last week and I put it to him, 鈥淪imon is the next step in reality TV Love Island?鈥� He didn鈥檛 say no straightaway.

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Keiligh -

Well, if he didn鈥檛 say no鈥�

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Beth -

I think he would be great on it. He would be brilliant, he鈥檇 be funny, he鈥檇 be witty, they鈥檇 all love him. Yeah, so watch this space.

听

Keiligh -

That would be a better TV show I think.

听

Beth -

[Music] So, my dad asked me last night what carols he wanted me to print off so as a family we could play over Christmas, so me on the violin, my dad on the guitar and my mum may or may not be on the harp, she took up as she retired.

听

Keiligh -

I love harps.

听

Beth -

And I was going for the classics, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Three Kings, Good King Wenceslas, the ones that don鈥檛 seem to get sung as much.

听

Keiligh -

Can I give you a really embarrassing Christmas confession?

听

Beth -

Please.

听

Keiligh -

As t鈥檌s the season. I only found out two years ago that it wasn鈥檛 Good King Wenslas. For 30 years I thought it was Good King Wenslas. And someone was like, no it鈥檚 Wenceslas. And I was like, what are you on about, Wenceslas.

听

Beth -

What did you think everyone was doing with the last bit?

听

Keiligh -

I thought it said鈥�

Beth -

听

Good King Wenslas last looked out.

Keiligh -

听

Yes exactly!

听

Beth -

Ah.

听

Keiligh -

Thank you Emma that was not alone. I felt so stupid. Wenceslas last looked out, yeah.

听

Beth -

What were they thinking?

听

Emma -听听

I just like taking the big deep breath and going, [sings] Glo-ria, Gloria, hosanna in excelsis. When I鈥檓 in choirs or if I鈥檝e been in choirs it鈥檚 always been an achievement if I鈥檝e done that without breathing.

听

Keiligh -

That is an achievement.

听

Beth -

I was playing some Christmas music the other day and I realised 鈥� do you know the song, Gaudete?

听

Emma -听听

Yeah.

听

Beth -

Is it Latin, Emma?

听

Emma -听听

Yeah.

听

Beth -

So, I can sing the full song in Latin.

听

Keiligh -

Go on then.

听

Beth -

I鈥檓 not going to do it. But I was like that鈥檚 a good handy thing to do.

听

Emma -听听

Easy-peas dot com.

听

Keiligh -

Yeah, could you give us a bit.

听

Beth -

[Singing] Gaudete, gaudete! Christus est natus, ex Maria virgine, Gaudete.

听

Keiligh -

Maybe I do know that actually.

听

Emma -听听

Did you say sex and virgin in that?

听

Beth -

Gaudete, gaudete! Christus est natus, ex Maria virgine, Gaudete.

听

Emma -听听

Oh, right it was the鈥�

听

[Music] So, we鈥檝e talked about reality TV and we鈥檝e talked about a lot of the fun stuff that鈥檚 happened this year, but it鈥檚 been a tough year for a lot of people. And back near the beginning of the year as well we recorded an episode of mentally interesting where one of our presenters, Mark Brown, spoke about the death of his sister Alison from COVID-19. It鈥檚 an incredibly powerful episode and difficult to listen to at the time and difficult to edit, but really relatable and we had a lot of feedback from it. I suppose the reason being that COVID has disproportionately affected disabled people and lots of us have lost people over the last year or two. And Mark has just put into words what some of that felt like, and that鈥檚 what we鈥檙e going to hear now.

听

Mark-

[Interview extract] One of the really weird things about losing someone and about grief is it鈥檚 really not like it is in the films. Like, you don鈥檛 put on your black dress and your black veil and walk around with a sour face all of the time, just kind of shaking your head and sighing. Although to be honest, I鈥檝e been doing quite a lot of shaking.

听

Seaneen-

That鈥檚 the way you live normally anyway, so鈥�

听

Mark-

I鈥檓 full of grief and sadness, sighing.

听

Seaneen-

Sad face.

听

Mark-

Just like slowly deflating one of those inflatable men that, you know, waves their arms around in front of car dealerships.

听

Seaneen-

But you did want to talk about it. So why? Why did you want to explore it on this episode?

听

Mark-

Well, I think one of the things that鈥檚 very difficult for us to talk about right now is how much this pandemic period, this cabin fever period, this lockdown period, about how much the last year has been haunted for a lot of us by the spectre of death, the fear of illness and the fear of loss. But we never really think that it鈥檒l happen to us, like, you always think that things will turn out all right and, you know, in the final reel of the film you all get together for that big party that鈥檚 been put off for all that time and then everything will be all right and you鈥檒l get to see all the people you wanted to see and you鈥檒l get to pick up all the threads that you wanted to pick up. And unfortunately that鈥檚 not the case with me and my sister. So the last time I saw my sister was on her birthday in February, just before lockdown started. And being very good, very conscientious people we observed all the lockdown rules, you know, kept ourselves safe and stuff, so we didn鈥檛 see each other all year.

听

She fell ill just before Christmas and had to go into hospital for a medical procedure and she was really, really ill. I couldn鈥檛 go and see her. I was standing in the field outside of the hospital in the dark waving a torch up at the windows in the hope that she would see it, because that was as close as we could kind of get. Then she was moved to a care home for kind of rehabilitation and whilst she was there she contracted COVID and it wasn鈥檛 sounding very good but, you know, it鈥檚 all right, she鈥檚 young, she鈥檚 healthy so she鈥檒l be fine. She was 39.

听

Then at kind of four o鈥檆lock in the morning I got a phone call from the nursing home saying unfortunately your sister鈥檚 died. I鈥檓 a month, a month and a bit, nearly two months into the kind of process of getting used to being a person that doesn鈥檛 have a sister anymore. Yeah, so I thought it was really important for me to talk about it because it鈥檚 something very real that鈥檚 happened. We can wang on about mental health stuff and talk about stuff in the abstract, but for me this was the kind of experience of all of the headlines coming home.

听

Seaneen-

Yeah.

听

Mark-

And almost, you know, like echoes from the future resounding back through the past, like all the things that I鈥檇 been worried about for other people happened to my sister, and kind of happened to me and her partner and my family and all of her friends.

听

Seaneen-

Because of the pandemic, I mean, you can鈥檛 grieve in the way that you probably would like to, or that, you know, people have done for years in order to say goodbye. I mean, what鈥檚 life been like since Alison died?

听

Mark-

Life since Alison died has been a kind of mixture of feeling the good stuff and also feeling the loss. It kind of takes a long time to even begin to, like, reset your internal settings. So I remember I went out for a walk and I was thinking about Alison鈥檚 partner who鈥檚 on their own now, and I was thinking, God, you know, they must be absolutely knackered. And I was thinking, you know, all this emotion and all this feeling and all these feelings of sadness, I鈥檓 really knackered. And then my mind just ran on and I just thought, God, and Alison must be absolutely done in from, like, all of these people saying that they miss her.

听

And it was like I hadn鈥檛 reset my thinking to stop worrying about how she was feeling, like, I was concerned about how her death was affecting her. And that鈥檚 that kind of, you know, that鈥檚 what you feel for your sibling, that you鈥檙e always thinking, you know, this is happening to me but how do they feel about it.

听

Beth -

That was such a powerful episode and clip. I think Mark just describes things so beautifully. Often you鈥檙e going through these experiences, we鈥檝e all been in a similar position to Mark鈥檚, but the way he can actually articulate it I think really hits home to a lot of people. And a lot of people have obviously been impacted by grief over the last nearly two years.

听

Keiligh -

And of course what we should say is, if it is a bit of a difficult time for you at the moment, and lots of people have been through lots of grief and challenges, you can always get in touch with 成人论坛 Action Line for any support and advice, or there are various organisations as well such as MIND or Rethink.

听

Beth -

[Music] It has been tough. There has been a lot of grief. But also there has been a lot of happiness, and some of that happiness has come to the extended Ouch team. If you鈥檝e been with us right from the beginning of Cabin Fever then you鈥檒l be very familiar with Kate and Holly who presented the Isolation Diaries. They are a couple. They are married. When they joined them they had a daughter called Scout, a toddler, and very recently, earlier this year they also adopted another little girl called Gracie. And we鈥檙e going to hear when that became official.

听

Kate-

[Extract] Okay, I just had a call. It was from the court and they said everything went through on Gracie鈥檚 adoption order and she is now a Monaghan!

听

Holly-

Yay!

听

Scout-

Gracie Monaghan.

听

Holly-

Gracie Monaghan, yay!

听

Scout-

Gracie Monaghan is a pomaban.

听

Holly-

Ow!

听

Kate-

Scout, too tight hugs.

听

Holly-

Too much cuddle, too much cuddle.

听

Kate-

Too much love. Yay, so we can take her out of the country. Oh wait, COVID. But that鈥檚 great news.

听

Holly-

You鈥檙e official, Grace.

听

Kate-

Official.

听

Holly-

You鈥檙e officially part of the family. Is that good news, Scout?

听

Scout-

Yes it is.

听

Kate-

Right, for anyone who couldn鈥檛 really hear us in the bath with screaming children, yeah we found out from the courts today that Gracie is now officially part of our family. So, when you adopt a child, for anyone who doesn鈥檛 know, when you bring them home that鈥檚 not the end of it. You share custody for at least ten weeks with the local authority, which is to make sure that everything is good on their side and it鈥檚 good on our side and the match is right and all of this stuff, and that the child is happy and safe and loved and all of this stuff. And then after ten weeks of the child being with you you鈥檙e allowed to apply for the adoption order through the courts, which is a paperwork kind of thing that she鈥檚 yours. And that鈥檚 what we did. And then there鈥檚 lots of kind of waiting around, even more than normal because the courts are backlogged in all their stuff. It feels like we鈥檝e been waiting ages. You have an official hearing to make sure everybody鈥檚 happy with the match. And then you get another date, and then it鈥檚 at that second date that it all goes through.

听

Holly-

It's also to allow birth parents to contest as well. They can try and try and try again, just to try and prove that they are鈥�

听

Kate-

Have changed.

听

Holly-

Yeah. So, sometimes it might work in their favour. Luckily for us鈥� Can you go and wipe mama鈥檚 face?

听

Kate-

Oh, that鈥檚 got a load of snot on it. And Gracie is now officially ours, so that means no more social worker visits, no more looked after care review.

听

Holly-

It鈥檚 a funny feeling because it鈥檚 amazing, but also there鈥檚 obviously a hint of sadness that nobody did contest her. But I think luckily we know that her birth parents are happy where she is, don鈥檛 they?

听

Kate-

Yeah. They understand that she鈥檚 in a good place anyway.

听

Holly-

And that鈥檚 really important for when she鈥檚 older and we can explain to her that her birth parents did want her but they couldn鈥檛 care for her.

听

Kate-

Yeah. Good girl, you鈥檙e building a tower. And that even though they weren鈥檛 able to care for her we wanted her more than anything in the world, and we were lucky to have her.

听

Holly-

Yeah.

听

Beth -

Can you imagine how chaotic that household鈥檚 going to be this Christmas?

听

Keiligh -

Very chaotic and very cute.

听

Emma -听听

Cuteness.

听

Keiligh -

Oh, the little snuffly noises Gracie makes, and when they were like 鈥渢oo much love, Scout, too much love鈥� when she was celebrating.

听

Beth -

Just lovely.

听

Emma -听听

It鈥檚 just beautiful. And the idea that we followed Kate and Holly through such a difficult time for them where they were shielding, because Holly鈥檚 immunocompromised, for that to be the outcome, the ending. And also a disabled female couple adopting is just all the feels.

听

Keiligh -

Just so lovely. And also just for a bit of a weird time context I produced our Christmas podcast last year, and while we were recording Kate suddenly started crying. And Simon Minty was like, 鈥淜ate, what鈥檚 wrong?鈥� and she鈥檇 just got the text from Holly saying that Holly was finally getting her first jab. And that was a year ago.

听

Emma -听听

Big moments. And Kate and Simon presented the Ouch podcast for many years, the Ouch talk show, and they鈥檝e been in our lives for a long time and we鈥檙e very fond of them and we鈥檙e very keen to follow their journeys in life, as you can tell.

听

Keiligh -

Definitely. Oh, and also a nice thing that I couldn鈥檛 include in the clip was that then Kate and Holly were explaining they鈥檝e got a booklet to give to Gracie when she鈥檚 older that marks her entire journey. So, there are pictures of her with her foster parents, stuff about her birth parents, about how Holly and Kate found her and all these lovely things. It鈥檚 really nice. And when she鈥檚 old enough they鈥檙e going to present her with it and then she鈥檒l have a little life story, a bit of a 鈥� what was that programme back in the day?

听

Beth -

This is Your Life.

听

Keiligh -

This is Your Life little Gracie. I think that鈥檚 ending on a high note right there, isn鈥檛 it?

听

Beth -

It is. And it鈥檚 interesting hearing about the court process, the adoption process, because it鈥檚 always, not shrouded in mystery, but unless you鈥檙e going through it you鈥檙e not sure. So, they鈥檙e going to have a great end to the year. And actually there was loads of brilliant Ouch stuff that we didn鈥檛 include. Obviously the summer was the summer of the Tokyo Paralympics; didn鈥檛 go as鈥�well it went smoothly, but not in the normal way we expect. And also what a year it鈥檚 been for loads of disabled celebrities. We鈥檝e had Strictly with Rose Ayling-Ellis wowing everyone with her dancing. Rosie Jones is appearing on everything right now. Casualty, my personal favourite.

听

Emma -听听

I saw here on The Wheel; that was quite good.

听

Beth -

Yeah.

听

Keiligh -

And obviously she also appeared on an Ouch podcast not that long ago as well. Another of our鈥� can we claim Rosie Jones?

听

Beth -

Yeah, definitely.

听

Keiligh -

Fantastic. I鈥檇 love that.

听

Beth -

What about Tim Rencow? He had a new series of Jerk out, he鈥檚 been with Ouch many times.

听

Emma -听听

Yeah, we鈥檝e had him a few times on. Absolutely. Lots of highs, lots of lows, and lots of stuff in the middle as well. But I think the Kate, Holly, Scout, Gracie clip is the high to end all highs.

听

[Music] It鈥檚 been quite the 成人论坛 Ouch year, I think you鈥檒l agree. And all the episodes we鈥檝e taken the clips from for this one are available on the 成人论坛 Ouch podcast on 成人论坛 Sounds. And you can subscribe to us there too; please do that. And you can get in touch with us as well. We鈥檇 love to hear from you. We are @bbcouch on Twitter. And you can search for 成人论坛 Ouch on Facebook and Instagram as well. So, all that鈥檚 left for us to say on this episode is:

听

All-

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

听

Keiligh -

Sing us home with a Latin song Beth.

听

Beth -

[Singing] Gaudete, gaudete! Christus est natus, ex Maria virgine, Gaudete.

听