成人论坛

05th May 2022
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Access All Pilot 鈥� Episode 2

Presented by Emma Tracey and Nikki Fox

Nikki
Did you see that article about Kim Kardashian? She鈥檚 got her own collection of sort of outerwear, she does a few clothes as well, called SKIMS. She鈥檚 actually doing adaptive underwear.

Emma-
Sorry?

Nikki
Adaptive underwear, Emma. Adaptive. I wouldn鈥檛 have thought Kim Kardashian would have focused on adaptive underwear.

Emma-
Can I just stop you there, love? What is adaptive underwear?

Nikki
Ooh, I know all about adaptive underwear now. It鈥檚 the kind of stuff you put on really easy. I鈥檝e not got to that stage yet in my disability, but I do sit on my tush more than I stand on my legs. And I think to help you get dressed in the morning, rather than have to stand up and pull your pants down basically, you can do them up at the sides. They鈥檝e got like little poppers at the sides.

Emma-
Ah okay.

Nikki
That鈥檚 my understanding of adaptive lingerie. And good around the tum-tum as well, because as a lot of people who sit down a lot know, the tum-tum area can be a little bit problematic.

Emma-
I just wonder what would happen if the poppers popped.

Nikki
Well, that鈥檚 exactly what would happen if it was me. I鈥檝e got a gigantic tush. Those poppers they would pop off as fast as they popped on.

Emma-
It鈥檚 good to have such a high profile person鈥�

Nikki
Yeah, that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 trying to say.

Emma-
鈥�talking about us, and that they鈥檙e quite sexy and they鈥檙e in a particular price range.

Nikki
All good in the hood. You can鈥檛 knock it can you?

Emma-
No.

Nikki
Well done, Kim. We should probably start the podcast, shouldn鈥檛 we

Music-
Featuring clips of people with disabilities.

Nikki
This is Access All. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I鈥檓 in London.

Emma-
And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 all the way up here in Edinburgh.

Nikki
And it鈥檚 so nice to be back. Thank you so much for all the messages. We got some nice ones, didn鈥檛 we, Em?

Emma-
We did, flooding in the day after.

Nikki
They were. I was very pleased and relieved. We got one here, it went like this, 鈥楯ust listened to this episode and loved it. I never thought I could be a bigger fan of yours鈥�. Now, there was me thinking, because I鈥檓 very vain, that that was the old big-headed Fox. No, it wasn鈥檛, it was for Briony. Briony our
guest last week.聽

Emma-
Briony May Williams.

Nikki
That鈥檚 the one, Briony Bakes. It was from Giuseppe Cooks, who was actually the winner of Bake Off, so we had a famous...

Emma-
Famous people tweeting us as well.

Nikki-
I know, yeah. Now, I鈥檓 very excited about this week, Emma Tracey, because it鈥檚 the Eurovision Song Contest next week in Turin in Italy. And I鈥檓 a huge fan of the Eurovision Song Contest. So are you, aren鈥檛 you?

Emma-
Well, being Irish I like to keep a little eye on what鈥檚 going on, seeing it as we鈥檝e won it so many times 鈥� quite a long time ago granted.

Nikki
Who was the guy that used to win it all the time, more recently? My mum really fancied him.

Emma-
Johnny Logan in the 鈥�80s?

Nikki
Johnny Logan.

Emma-
[Singing] Hold me now, don鈥檛 cry, just say you love me.

Nikki
Oh, what a voice.

Nikki
And I know this was part of the half-time show, it wasn鈥檛 an act, but Riverdance, me and my family we still watch that every single year.

Emma-
Riverdance?

Nikki
Yeah.

Emma-
You see, being blind I have no idea what Riverdance is. Everyone was like, oh it鈥檚 amazing, it鈥檚 amazing, it鈥檚 amazing. All I could hear was clatter, clatter, clatter, woo-hoo.

Sound FX - Riverdance footsteps

Nikki-
We have got somebody who is competing for Australia in the Eurovision Song Contest this year. He鈥檚 a musical genius. I listened to one of his tracks and goosebumps, or as an old PA used to say, bump goose, because she was Italian. Bump goose.
He was diagnosed as autistic at six years old and he鈥檚 with us now. It鈥檚 Sheldon Riley. I just want to say hello and I鈥檓 a huge fan. Just get that out.

Sheldon-
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It鈥檚 an honour. Yeah, I was aged six. It鈥檚 not as it is now. I don鈥檛 even believe they call it Asperger鈥檚 anymore; I think it鈥檚 just the spectrum scale. But at the time it was very heavily drilled into me that I have Asperger鈥檚. I was very quiet as a kid and I was unable to speak to a lot of people but I was told I wouldn鈥檛 be able to communicate or talk or find a partner or get a job or function as a normal human, whatever that means. Just being constantly told you鈥檙e not the same from the rest. But fast forward all these years, I鈥檓 very proud to be me. I think it鈥檚 the little bits of me that people wanted to fix for so long that make me super special.

Nikki
I was also reading as well, Sheldon, you were saying that you came out around 14, didn鈥檛 you? And that kind of opened up a whole new world, which I found quite interesting because in my job in disability news I get a lot of people email me, and I do have quite a lot of emails from gay disabled people who feel a little ostracised from that kind of world, for whatever reason, mainly people with physical disabilities. But for you it was a real blessing, wasn鈥檛 it?

Sheldon-
Yeah, I mean in ways yes and no. I think now in today鈥檚 day and age there鈥檚 still a long way to go, but a lot of acceptance for people. But at my time I was too young to be making this choice. I also grew up in a very religious and reserved family, so not only was this something that needed to be psychologically fixed, but something that was crowed over me for a long time as well. I think on the neurodivergent scale and also being in the LGBT community it was a tough one for me, considering I was surrounded by people who didn鈥檛 understand both. I mean, now looking at it I鈥檓 just happy to be me. I love that my brain thinks differently to people. I love that I fixate on little things. It鈥檚 what makes me so strong and what gives me so much attention to detail. And also I love my sexuality; I couldn鈥檛 imagine being straight.

Nikki
It's so boring!

Sheldon-
I mean, at the time it was relieving. I think because for a long time I blamed my sexuality on my mental health, or my mental health on my sexuality. And I think coming out and saying, this is who I am, it kind of gave answers and no more excuses to who I was as a person.

Nikki
And it鈥檚 all got you really I suppose to this point. I mean, I know you鈥檝e been part of many musical competitions, like The Voice, and was it Australia鈥檚 Got Talent that you took part in? And you鈥檝e obviously been a musician for years. But it鈥檚 all led you to this point really: you鈥檙e going to be performing at the Eurovision Song Contest, which for me would be a huge deal. Have you always wanted to sing? Have you always wanted to do something like the Eurovision?

Sheldon-
I kind of say that my life started around 14, 15. I don鈥檛 remember myself beforehand. For me Eurovision was where it all began. I remember seeing Conchita for the first time, this is everything I鈥檓 not allowed to see, this is everything I knew in myself that I was being shielded from all my life. And that was when I was like I want to be everything that this is, not just Conchita but the competition, the aspect, the understanding of a contest that holds so many nations, so many different ethnicities, religions and cultures and sexualities. I just wanted to be a part of this immersive experience that was just so outrageously opposite from what I was allowed to be exposed to as a kid. I鈥檝e wanted to do Eurovision since I can remember.

Nikki
Well, I think we need to hear a clip of your song. Not the Same it鈥檚 called.

Music-
Song clip 鈥� Not the Same.

Nikki
Oh that voice. You wrote that when you were 15. I mean, 15! Kate Bush wrote a song at like 13, 14 so. It鈥檚 such a personal song, isn鈥檛 it?

Sheldon-
Yeah, it is. I didn鈥檛 speak when I was a kid. I was afraid of people. I was afraid of how people would act and respond to me if I said the wrong thing, so I just stayed quiet for a very, very long time. It wasn鈥檛 until around 14, 15 when I came out that I was like, I just don鈥檛 want to be defined by what I can and can鈥檛 do anymore. So, I pushed myself so hard, I had to make mistakes, I had to say the wrong thing, I had to learn to listen. It鈥檚 taken a long time to get to a place now where I can comfortably be myself, but it was hard. I really did find it so hard to speak my mind and to know what was okay and what wasn鈥檛. I was just in this constant fight with my brain and I just couldn鈥檛 figure out how to be normal. It was really tough. So, that was when I wrote this song; I was just like, I鈥檓 so proud of you, you鈥檙e not the same and it鈥檚 okay. You鈥檙e doing what you need to do. For so long you didn鈥檛 speak, you didn鈥檛 even try because it wasn鈥檛 worth it, and now you鈥檙e doing it.

Emma-
And is that where the masking aspect comes in? I produced a podcast with autistic people for quite a long time and there was an awful lot of talk about masking. Can you tell us a bit about your masks?

Sheldon-
The mask is a crystal mask, Swarovski crystal, House of Emmanuele. It鈥檚 my favourite thing. It was introduced to me about four years ago. For me once I decided I didn鈥檛 want to blame my brain for things anymore, unfortunately what that meant is I started to blame other things about myself, maybe people don鈥檛 like me because I don鈥檛 look a certain way, maybe blah, blah, blah. So, I really grew this very unhealthy relationship with myself where I鈥檇 look at myself in the mirror or I鈥檇 have an amazing performance and watch myself back on video or photos and just hated the way that I looked, hated myself. I would look in the mirror and just go, you鈥檙e just the most disgusting person you鈥檝e ever seen.

Nikki
No.

Sheldon-
Because I never wanted to blame what was going on inside my mind, so I was blaming what was happening externally. The mask almost became this beautiful distraction where I could perform and sing and do everything I loved to do, and use the voice I was given, but without people having to see the thing that I hated the most. I don鈥檛 know, maybe it sounds a little bit first world problems, maybe it sounds not even worth mentioning, but for me it was really hard.

Nikki
No, not at all.

Emma-
No, I cried when I listened to your song when you qualified for Eurovision. And a lot of people have seen the videos, it鈥檚 not really a spoiler, but you had a mask on and then you didn鈥檛. And you were so emotional. I was so emotional because I鈥檝e spoken to so many autistic people about how they鈥檝e masked how they really want to behave, and tried to behave differently to fit in and tried to cover things about themselves.

Nikki
Be someone they鈥檙e not.

Emma-
And it was just so emotional.

Sheldon-
Thank you for sharing that. I think for a lot of people disability doesn鈥檛 have to be completely obvious either. Anyone who doesn鈥檛 know me I probably just look like this normal functioning human being with no problems. And what they don鈥檛 realise is that I鈥檝e got such complexity to how my mind works. So, I think for me I put a mask on every day, even before I started wearing masks, because I was like okay, you鈥檙e very blessed, you don鈥檛 look like someone who is but you think like someone who is, and let鈥檚 just stay quiet and shield that from the rest of the world. I think wearing a mask has been a part of my lifestyle for a very, very long time; which is why for Eurovision I wanted nothing more than to take it off because I never want to be an advocate for somebody who feels safer hiding than being brave enough to go, I鈥檓 completely perfect the way that I am.

Nikki
And what a role model to have somebody like you doing that. Billions of people watch the Eurovision; it鈥檚 such a huge moment that. You must feel very proud?

Sheldon-
I am. I mean, it鈥檚 scary every day. I hate taking it off.

Nikki
And you鈥檙e already in Turin actually. You鈥檝e started rehearsals, haven鈥檛 you, Sheldon? How is it all going?

Sheldon-
It鈥檚 going amazing. It鈥檚 very, very fun. It鈥檚 all very exciting. The stage looks amazing. It鈥檚 reflecting perfectly what I wanted the song to reflect. We鈥檝e got a very big staircase, a very big outfit that weighs 50 kilos, ridiculous. But it鈥檚 all going incredibly.

Nikki
And what do you think of our UK entry, Sheldon? [Sings] Up in space, man. There you go.

Sheldon-
I heard him the other day. I don鈥檛 think I鈥檝e met a happier human being in my entire life. He just smiles ear to ear. The most big bundle of joy I鈥檝e ever met in my entire life. What an amazing鈥�honestly. And congrats to the UK, I think you may potentially have a winner on your hands this time.

Emma-
Oh!

Nikki
No one ever votes for us, Sheldon. Honestly, as a nation we are universally hated.

Emma-
Surely not? I mean, being Irish I think we might have always given the UK zero points. But I think the UK has always done the same to us, so.

Nikki
Oh Sheldon, thank you so much for joining us. Now, Sheldon is set to perform at the second semi-final of Eurovision 2022 on Thursday May 12th. Sheldon, you鈥檙e a superstar, honestly. Keep doing it and I wish you so much luck.

Sheldon-
Have a beautiful day.

Nikki
Bye darling.

Emma-
I mean, he is definitely not the first disabled performer by any stretch. [Song clip] Corrina May, she鈥檚 German, she鈥檚 blind, and the song of course is called I Can鈥檛 Live Without Music. [Song clip] Now, this is Electro Velvet, 2015 from the UK, and lovely Bianca is one of the performers and she has cystic fibrosis. [Song clip] Here you go, Nikki, here鈥檚 PKN, 2015 from Finland, and they have learning disabilities. [Song clip] This is Monika Kuszy艅ska from Poland, and she鈥檚 a wheelchair user and she was on in 2015. [Song clip] This is TIX, 2021 was his year and he鈥檚 Norwegian and he has Tourette鈥檚.聽

Nikki
That was disability Pick of the Pops. I like that, Emma. I didn鈥檛 know you were doing a sleek rundown like that.

Emma-
It was a one-take wonder.

Nikki
That was amazing. You need to work in music radio as well. Blimey Emma, I like that.

Emma-
No, I prefer this.

Nikki
There have been a lot of disabled artists at Eurovision. More than I remember, because obviously I remember PKN because we flew to Helsinki with 成人论坛 News to film with them. Aina Mun Pit盲盲 was the song I think. It was very grr.

Emma-
It was punk.

Nikki
Yeah, punk punky. And they were great guys actually, gave lots of very good hugs, and I really enjoyed that. But I didn鈥檛 realise there were quite so many disabled artists. But I guess that鈥檚 what the Eurovision is about.

Emma-
Very inclusive, as Sheldon said.

Nikki
Really inclusive, and that is why I love it.

Music-
Send an email to Nikki, accessall@bbc.co.uk.

Nikki
Have you ever suspected that you're paid less than other people at work because you鈥檙e disabled? Well, the scary thing is you could actually be right. Now, recent figures from the Office of National Statistics revealed that in 2021 disabled employees were paid 13.8% less than their non-disabled peers. 13.8% Em! Did the ONS reveal anything else?

Emma-
They took their figures from the annual population survey and the annual survey of hours and earnings. They found that in 2014 it was 11.7%, so the gap has widened a bit. It actually widened to beyond 14% during the pandemic, but narrowed slightly again. Surprisingly and disappointingly for me Scotland had the widest disability pay gap, and that was 18.5%.

Nikki
Wowzers.

Emma-
Yeah, I know, isn鈥檛 it interesting? And then impairment wise autistic people were paid astonishingly 33.5% less than non-disabled people.

Nikki
Wow. Here to help us understand this thing鈥�

Emma-
Thank goodness.

Nikki
Pressure鈥檚 off, Em, and breathe. Because we have got the wonderful careers coach Mary Doyle with us. Hello Mary.

Mary-
Hi Nikki, hi Emma.

Emma-
Hello.

Nikki
So lovely to meet you, Mary. Emma has been raving about you so I鈥檓 very excited about this.

Mary-
Oh, so sweet, thank you.

Nikki
Now, you鈥檙e a wheelchair user. You鈥檝e worked your way up from computer programmer to leader over 25 years. And you now coach disabled and non-disabled people through life and work situations, and you also help companies themselves become more inclusive. So, you are totally right placed for this segment, aren鈥檛 you? Does the fact that disabled employees are paid 13.5% less does that surprise you?

Mary-
It doesn鈥檛 surprise me, to be fair. I think everyone who is disabled and in the community was aware there was a pay gap basically just based on their own experiences. And the gender pay gap everyone is aware of that now, so the move now is to make people more aware of the disability pay gap and actually take action to address it.

Nikki
And why do you think there is a disability pay gap? What are the reasons?

Mary-
It鈥檚 complicated. Humans complicated processes. I guess bear in mind that we have a disadvantage in the labour market, and we have this long enduring employment gap and pay gap. So, we have the UK law protecting us but we know we still face discrimination. And also bear in mind really in relative terms disabled people as a community we haven鈥檛 been in the labour market for probably more than 50 years. After World War II all the returning injured service personnel they were kind of supported to go into work. And then over time disabled people from a non-military background were kind of given some support and help to basically find work. We鈥檙e still in the relatively early stages. I鈥檓 not giving our employers a card here to just pay us lower, but I think this kind of explains potentially how we got here. But now we are aware of it we have to make informed choices to minimise and reduce it and make sure it doesn鈥檛 happen with every new recruit.

Nikki
I wondered what your top tips would be for me actually if you were coaching me, Mary.

Mary-
People talk about imposter syndrome lots of times. A lot of my coaching is around confidence as disabled people. I just think there鈥檚 a crisis of confidence across the entire population, but it鈥檚 worse for the disabled community. It鈥檚 the repetitive action based behaviours that you do every single day, and over the course of time you will build this muscle of confidence. It鈥檚 highly aligned with resilience, right? And we know as a community we鈥檙e highly resilient, we鈥檝e been through a lot of crap in our lives individually and through COVID and everything else; we鈥檝e pretty much got our gold star in resilience I think most of us. So, working on your confidence is just being mindful of your internal chatter and the messages you鈥檙e telling yourself, and replacing them with things which are actually more neutral and optimistic. So, instead of beating yourself up accept that you dropped a clanger and just say, yeah I鈥檓 not going to speak to myself about that anymore, I鈥檓 going to speak to myself in a better way basically. And recognise that you鈥檝e already got probably massive wins under your belt; it鈥檚 just that when you鈥檙e in a lull it鈥檚 hard to remember them. So, you just need to dig deep and remind yourself of all the good stuff you have achieved so far. It doesn鈥檛 matter what it is, but if you basically wanted it, achieved it and smashed it then that鈥檚 your win. And just remember them and keep them in your pocket for when you鈥檙e feeling a bit crap.聽

Nikki
I鈥檓 hyper self-critical. I鈥檓 annoyingly so. I do try and remember, okay Nikki, you do have to get up three hours before you have to be anywhere, you do have to organise a lot more, you have to do paperwork and run your team of PAs, people that help you. Which for people that know that, go through that, they know that it鈥檚 a lot of work. You do have to be a bit mindful of my strength and my energy. So, I try and give myself a break, but it is hard. And I wonder what other disabled people tell you about those thoughts that go through the head, the negative ones and how they feel. It鈥檚 quite interesting to me.

Mary-
Sure. I guess a lot of it comes from 鈥� people in our work we understand the term ableism, right, which is the discrimination of disabled people 鈥� but we talk a lot about internalised ableism, which is less discussed. And that鈥檚 basically where you鈥檙e applying the ableism to yourself and potentially to other people and your peers. And it鈥檚 massively damaging. So, just recognising that you may be experiencing that is sometimes an eye-opener for a lot of people.

Nikki
I was going to say, Mary, for people that aren鈥檛 familiar with ableism could you give us some examples of maybe that within the workforce?

Mary-
Having an accessible toilet, which sounds like such a basic level, but there are still many places that we can鈥檛 access for that reason. And it鈥檚 attitudes as well regarding: Why do you want to work? Why do you need to work? Can you do the job? Can you keep up? Are you going to be a burden? Are you going to take a lot of time off sick? All these kinds of things are examples of just the kind of messages that we hear on a very regular basis.

Emma-
I think we all have low points in our work or looking for work or what we鈥檙e going to do with our lives. What have you heard from people specific, they鈥檙e in a situation, they鈥檝e come to you, what are they feeling?

Mary-
Sure. So, a lot of people I speak to are just plain exhausted. They鈥檙e working all the hours available to them and they鈥檙e investing everything in their job, so it leaves them nothing to look after themselves when they leave the office. It鈥檚 quite common that people give it their all when they鈥檙e in the office, whether they鈥檙e walking around and it鈥檚 just more challenging for whatever reason, and it鈥檚 just more exhausting. By the time they get home they have to decide between their shower or their dinner, for example. And then they spend their weekend just trying to recuperate so they can do it all again the following week.

Nikki
The exact thing happened to me actually last year. Badly timed, it was during the Paralympics, but I just broke down. I think it was just exhaustion, just sheer exhaustion or just driving here, there and everywhere, getting up so early and really just pushing it. My head exploded, I was like I just can鈥檛. And I did think to myself at the time I really hope that other disabled people who are in the same situation as me have got a boss or a team around them who are as open to listening. It did work in my case having that open chat. It was well needed as well, and I ended up having about two months off in the end.

If you want to tell us about your job, your lack of job, your frustration or if you鈥檝e had good experiences, then record us a voice messages, listeners, on WhatsApp and send it to this number. Now, I need to try and kind of make this a bit jazzy, it鈥檚 0330 123 9480. I said I need to make this jazzy and then I went [boring voice] 0330鈥�

Emma-
Why doesn鈥檛 someone do us a jingle and send it in?

Nikki
So, I鈥檓 going to go [singing] 0330 123 9480.

Emma-
Why don鈥檛 people sing it, rap it, sing it in a funny voice and send it in?

Nikki
Do it what you like. Yes seriously, that would be great. We need to think of something fun and ingenious to say at the end of the show and we need a jingle for our WhatsApp number.

Emma-
Mary has a great sign off. She signs off all her emails in a particular way.

Nikki
Oh what do you do, Mary? Is she still here?

Mary-
Yeah, I鈥檓 still here.

Nikki
Go on Mary, what do you do?

Mary-
I say rock your difference, as in like owning it in a cheesy way.

Nikki
May we have permission to use that just for one 鈥� we鈥檙e not going to steal it from you forever, Mary 鈥� but could we use it for the end of the show today?

Mary-
Just use it all the time because it鈥檚 true. I just want people to be comfortable in their skin.

Nikki
I could talk to you all day. You鈥檝e been brilliant. It鈥檚 been such an interesting chat with you. Thank you so much.

Mary-
Thank you both, I appreciate it.

Music-
Theme music.

Nikki
Our next guest is one of my all-time favourite actors, it鈥檚 the amazing Bafta-nominated Ruth Madeley, who has also just wrapped a film with one of Hollywood鈥檚 biggest stars. I can鈥檛 wait to hear all about that Madeley, I tell you. Hello. How are you?聽

Ruth-
Thank you so much for having me. I鈥檓 so excited.

Nikki
Honestly, you are brilliant. The stuff that you have done: playing single mum in Russell T Davies鈥� Years and Years; you were Bafta nominated for Don鈥檛 Take My Baby; and then you played one of my favourite people, we have to talk about Babs, Barbara Lisicki in Then Barbara Met Alan. Now, how is life after Then Barbara Met Alan? Because that was the most recent on-screen appearance of yours, wasn鈥檛 it?

Ruth-
The response has been incredible. We鈥檙e so, so pleased with it.

Nikki
When it was the anniversary of the Disability Discrimination Act I got to speak to Barbara and I fell in love with her, very much so, mobility scooter riding, chain smoking Barbara Lisicki. I don鈥檛 know whether she still smokes but anyway.聽

Ruth-
I鈥檝e never felt more uncool in my entire life than when I met her.

Nikki
She is as cool as a cucumber. But the thing is Ruth, when I watched it and I saw you, the minute you came on screen I was like Barbara, she鈥檚 got it.

Ruth-
Oh, that鈥檚 the loveliest compliment.

Nikki
Can you just remind our listeners who aren鈥檛 familiar with the act and the DAN network what it鈥檚 all about?

Ruth-
Absolutely. The Direct Action Network were headed up by Barbara Lisicki and Alan Holdsworth. They were two disabled cabaret performers and they used to perform with other disabled people. And they had just this incredible group of friends who all just got to the point where they were like, we need to change how this country sees disabled people, and we need to change history and we need to change the law so that disabled people had rights. That went from employment to accessible housing. The infrastructure was so poor. They wanted to take to the streets to demand their rights and get it made illegal to discriminate against disabled people. And that鈥檚 what led to the passing of the Disability Discrimination Act in 1995 鈥� not that long ago!

Nikki
I know, scary isn鈥檛 it?

Ruth-
Terrifying.

Nikki
I saw a brilliant archive clip of Barbara, and I think it was when they were holding up a bus. And the guy was like, 鈥榳ell I鈥檒l just carry you on鈥�, because there were no ramps to get on buses were there back then.

Ruth-
No.

Nikki
And he was like, 鈥業鈥檒l carry you on鈥� and I think she turned around and was like, 鈥榩iss off!鈥�.

Ruth-
I know. Direct Action Network really prided themselves on protesting and campaigning in their own way. It was their rules.

Nikki
We鈥檝e got a little clip. Let鈥檚 have a listen.

Film clip-
Block Telethon is about reclaiming our pride. It鈥檚 about equality. It鈥檚 about celebrating who we are, coming together as people. No more charity. What we want instead is real rights, real choices.

Nikki
On and off screen it was full of disabled talent, wasn鈥檛 it?

Ruth-
Yeah. I remember I went through so many emotions during the whole process because it really felt revolutionary. And then I got really angry the fact that I was like, why am I crying tears of joy to be surrounded by this many disabled people at work; why have we got to this point without me feeling like this before in my industry. And then you felt really angry as to why. It shouldn鈥檛 have been seen as cutting edge, but it was because of that.

Nikki
Go for you for the first nooky-nook scene in that production.

Ruth-
Honestly in a weird way, in what world are you going to say yes? Having simulated sex on TV was one of my proudest moments. No, it genuinely felt very revolutionary; and again that shouldn鈥檛 have been. I had never seen that on TV, and showing that disabled people do have sex and it can be sad and happy and beautiful and sexy. It felt like a really special moment and one that we all wanted to do justice. And I think we did an okay job.

Nikki
Obviously things have changed but how far do you think that industry has to go?

Ruth-
I鈥檓 very much about okay, this is great, we鈥檙e further than we were last year, but think how further we could be next year.

Nikki
Yeah. In fact you want to see more accessibility coordinators; what are they?

Ruth-
When you're on set your access requirements often fall to different people, and no one鈥檚 quite sure who looks after what. If you had an accessibility coordinator on set to take care of anyone鈥檚 access requirements. Don鈥檛 forget my access requirements are pretty simple because I鈥檓 a wheelchair user and I can list like four things I need. Whereas perhaps people with invisible disabilities don鈥檛 feel that they鈥�for so long people with invisible disabilities have felt that they can鈥檛 say that they have access requirements. So, this isn鈥檛 just for people who are visibly disabled; this is for anyone who has access requirements. If you鈥檝e got an accessibility coordinator that person is responsible for making sure all accessibility is taken care of, so that when you actually get to the point where you start filming that鈥檚 all you have to worry about because everything else is taken care of. And the fact that this hasn鈥檛 been a thing until now is insane to me. Like the second COVID hit, COVID officers and COVID coordinators were put on set instantly. They were trained up like that and they were just on set. So, why couldn鈥檛 the same happen to look after disabled people on set?

Nikki
It would just take the pressure off.

Ruth-
It would. And I think it鈥檚 not just the pressure for the disabled talent, it takes the pressure off the production offices who are often really, really nervous about getting it wrong. It鈥檚 not out of malice; it鈥檚 out of fear of getting it wrong.

Nikki
Now, also 鈥� I鈥檝e got to get to this because I鈥檓 so excited because this is another woman that I love as well Rebel Wilson 鈥� I鈥檝e heard that you鈥檝e just wrapped a film with Rebel Wilson and Meera Syal.聽 What is that? Tell us, tell us.

Ruth-
It's called The Almond and The Seahorse. It鈥檚 an incredible drama. It鈥檚 Rebel鈥檚 first dramatic film role, which was really exciting to be with her on that. It鈥檚 about the aftermath of brain injury. So, The almond and the seahorse are colloquial terms for different parts of the brain that look after memory and then your emotion and personality traits.

Nikki
Oh wow. And what was it like? Because you鈥檙e acting in a story which is about disability but it鈥檚 not about your own disability.

Ruth-
Yeah, it was really interesting.

Nikki
Did it give you perspective?

Ruth-
Yeah, it really did because brain injury is sometimes not something that you recognise straightaway. People have different levels of brain injury. It was like looking at the different sides to it: so how it affects the actual person; how it affects the family; how it affects relationships, because often with brain injury your personality can change drastically. It was just a joy to be part of it really. So, my character she works with Meera Syal at the clinic where they look after people who have experienced brain injury or brain trauma. And we had so much fun. It was really good fun.

Nikki
And are Rebel and Meera as lovely then as I would imagine?

Ruth-
They鈥檙e awful, awful people, never work with them again. No, they were incredible. They were so great. They鈥檙e just an incredible team. I can鈥檛 wait for everyone to see it.

Nikki
When is it coming out?

Ruth-
I don鈥檛 know.

Nikki
Because these things you have to wait for so long, don鈥檛 you?

Ruth-
I know. And we did film it still in quite restricted times. It鈥檚 all of that is still having a bit of a knock-on effect in the industry, so everyone is
still playing catch-up.

Nikki
The business woman in showbiz, what is next for you, Ruth Madeley?

Ruth-
There鈥檚 a lot happening, and I鈥檓 going to say that really small. I鈥檒l refrain just in case and say that ridiculous actor thing where they鈥檙e like, I can鈥檛 say, I just can鈥檛 say what I鈥檓 working on.

Nikki
You can鈥檛.

Ruth-
There鈥檚 stuff coming up. But also I鈥檓 very excited to have gone back to my roots, which is writing. My dad is thrilled that I鈥檓 finally putting my degree to good use. It鈥檚 really great to get back into that and realise that I鈥檓 not as bad as I thought.

Nikki
Madeley, you know you鈥檙e not going to be bad.

Ruth-
Oh my god, no seriously, writing is the most tortuous thing you鈥檒l ever do in your life. Honestly. I remember speaking to Russell T Davies about it, I was like, 鈥極h my god, I鈥檓 so rubbish. What鈥檚 happening, why can鈥檛 I write anything?鈥�. And he just said, 鈥楾he best piece of advice that I would give any writer: some days you鈥檒l write ten pages, other days you鈥檒l write ten words, and both are fine鈥�. And there have been many days where I鈥檝e just written ten words. But then I went through this period of time at the beginning of the year where my writing inspiration was at its peak at 2 or 3 o鈥檆lock in the morning. So, my sleep patterns were completely out of synch. I didn鈥檛 know what was happening. But it鈥檚 been a wonderful challenge, but also very rewarding, and it鈥檚 really exciting to have stuff happening with that, so that鈥檚 great.

Nikki
Now, I could talk with you all day, Ruth Madeley, but we鈥檙e already at the end of this week鈥檚 成人论坛鈥檚 Access All podcast. How did it go by so quickly, Emma?

Emma-
It flew.

Nikki
It flew. Now, listen, if you鈥檝e not seen Ruth in Then Barbara Met Alan and Years and Years they are both still available on iPlayer and I would hugely recommend watching them. Then Barbara Met Alan is just brilliant, isn鈥檛 it?

Emma-
Awesome.

Nikki
Got to catch up on Years and Years. I didn鈥檛 tell her that, but got to do that. Right, well it鈥檚 the end of the show and I鈥檓 going to nick Mary鈥檚 phrase now. This is what we鈥檙e going to use for now: rock your difference, people.

Emma-
Rock your difference.

Nikki
And we will see you next Friday, same time, same place.

Emma-
Bye.