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27th May 2022bbc.co.uk/accessallAccess All – episode 5
Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey
NIKKI- Hello Ems, we’re back again. 
EMMA- We’re back again!
NIKKI- We’ve been allowed.
EMMA- Episode 5.
NIKKI- Stop it.
EMMA- Not that I’m counting. 
NIKKI- How are you? Have you had a good week?
EMMA- I have. My sister’s been here and she’s been teaching me Joe Wicks’ exercises, so that’s been funny. She’s been teaching me mountain climbers, which I can tell you Nikki is the closest I’m ever going to get to a mountain. 
NIKKI- Safer as well for all concerned, not just you because you’re blind. 
EMMA- No, everybody should stay away from mountains.
NIKKI- Well, that sounds nice.
EMMA- Anyway. How about yourself, what have you been doing this week?
NIKKI- It’s been a busy one, Ems. But we had a lovely, lovely day yesterday. I was lucky enough to take my mum to the Chelsea Flower Show.
EMMA- Oh lovely.
NIKKI- We were asked to film a really nice little VT about, well, my mum really. She is a magnificent gardener and it’s helped her through a lot of things, so that was lovely. And it was just so nice because mum and I, well me and mum, my sister and my dad we’re a very tight-knit close, small family really. And it was just so lovely to see my mum shine in that kind of arena really. She really is quite a phenomenal woman. I mean, she’s bonkers. 
EMMA- So’s mine!
NIKKI- You think I’m bonkers, but my mum is on another level.
EMMA- And your mum’s not disabled, am I right, she’s not got the same impairment as you? 
NIKKI- No, mum and dad not at all. With muscular dystrophy, me and my sister has both got it, and apparently it was like everyone has a good gene and a bad gene and my mum and dad happened to match and that was why one in millions. I mean, they told us this when we were younger. I don’t know much else to be honest, but yeah.
EMMA- That’s a perfect little description of genetics.
NIKKI- Is it?
EMMA- You could put that on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Bitesize or something. 
NIKKI- There’s a good gene and a bad gene.
MUSIC- Theme music.
NIKKI- This is Access All. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London. 
EMMA- And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh. 
NIKKI- This is our weekly podcast about disability and mental health from the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳. And we’re reaching out to listeners in the UK and from around the world, so I’m very global. Please subscribe, share and tell your friends and colleagues about us.
FLORENCE- Mr Speaker, last week the government drop the enquiry’s recommendation that a personal evacuation plan should be in place for disabled residents, claiming basic safety would be too expensive. Grenfell United showed that cutting costs is more important than the value of human life. So, will the Prime Minister urgently reverse this deeply inhumane decision and not break another promise to this house. 
NIKKI- Now, if you tuned in to Prime Minister’s Questions on Wednesday to get the latest on Partygate you may have been struck by an entirely unrelated question which popped up. The MP for Vauxhall, Florence Eshalomi, asked Boris Johnson to reverse the government’s decision not to implement personal emergency evacuation plans, or PEEPs as they’re commonly known, for residents in high rise blocks who might need support escaping in the event of a fire. It was a recommendation made by the Grenfell Fire Enquiry, and the fact the government has decided not to take it on board has outraged disability groups.  Now, let’s go back a bit, Emma. I’ve been asked to fill out my fair share of PEEPs, but can you explain to our listeners what they are?
EMMA- Yeah, so have I actually, so they’re not just for wheelchair users. I think a lot of people think that they’re for wheelchair users only.
NIKKI- Yeah, I did actually.
EMMA- A PEEP is an official plan to help a disabled person escape a building in case of fire. So, it’s a bit of a formal plan put together. And it starts off with a conversation between the disabled person and what they call the responsible person in the building, so the person responsible for fire safety. The plan shouldn’t necessarily need the fire service to work, so you should be able to get out of the building without intervention from those services. So, I’ll tell you a bit about generally what’s in plans. What’s in your plan, Nikki, actually? 
NIKKI- It’s like go to a certain point with a certain elevator that will work in the event of a fire. And something about an e-vac chair, which I’ve managed to avoid successfully for most of my life, but I know it’s a chair if the lift didn’t work that I’d have to sit on and two people would have to carry me down the steps. Am I right, Emma? Do I get an A?
EMMA- Yeah, you’ve done really well there. 
NIKKI- Who gets a PEEP?
EMMA- Anybody who needs a PEEP. So, in workplaces and public facing places, care homes etc. you have to have one for any disabled person or guest in the building by law under the Equality Act. But this doesn’t actually extend to our homes. 
NIKKI- Emma, why were PEEPs discussed at the Grenfell Enquiry?
EMMA- So, the Grenfell Enquiry came out of a huge fire that happened in a tower block in London on 14th June 2017. The policy at the time was stay put unless smoke affects you, the smell or the heat etc. And the building is supposed to keep you safe, so fire is supposed to stay contained wherever it started. The cladding on the building, which we now know, acted like fuel and the fire spread and it wasn’t contained. So, stay put was eventually abandoned. But people who needed help escaping didn’t have evacuation plans, because it was very unlikely that they were ever going to need to escape, right. So, with all that in mind Grenfell had 37 disabled residents; 72 people died in the fire and 15 of those were disabled. So, that's around 40% of disabled residents of Grenfell died in the fire. Now, there were lots and lots of really harrowing stories from that night. Shahrokh Aghlani told our sister podcast, the Grenfell Enquiry, that a PEEP would have helped his mum. 
SHAHROKH- On that night when a neighbour knocked on her door telling her that she has to evacuate, she has to leave, she pointed at her knees and tried to tell her that she can’t move, she physically could not manage the staircases down. So, yes I think she would have been alive if that recommendation was in place in 2017.
EMMA- The recommendation he mentions there is around the personal emergency evacuation plans being drawn up for everybody in tower blocks who’s disabled and needs one.  In a debate about Grenfell on 30th October 2019 Boris Johnson’s government pledged to take on the recommendations of the enquiry, led by Sir Martin Moore-Bick.
NIKKI- So, Emma what reason has the government given for not implementing the recommendations? 
EMMA- They are concerned that if there were PEEPs for disabled people in all the buildings each building would have to have a staff member and there would be a significant cost in that. Also the safety, they're concerned that if someone was using an e-vac chair with two people helping them that would slow other people down. Joe and Liz live in a third-floor flat in west London. Eight years ago Joe had a bleed on the brain and he got a complex brain injury. Their building always had a stay put policy, so stay put unless the smoke affects you. But following Grenfell there were some assessments on their building, and now all the safety notices say, if in doubt, get out. So, Joe can’t do the stairs without significant help, but after two years of Liz fighting and working with the building’s management etc his PEEP is still not in place. There isn’t one in place for him and he doesn’t have the equipment he needs. They told me their thoughts about what’s happening for them. 
JOE- I find it mind boggling that we’re having a conversation about getting disabled people out of a burning building. It just feels wrong. If there’s a fire there’s no plan of getting me out of the building. The fear of being cremated alive it’s just horrendous. It just shouldn’t be happening. 
EMMA- Gosh, they’re very strong words aren’t they, Nikki?
NIKKI- Yeah. Well, one group unhappy with last week’s decision is Claddag. Now, they’re a collection of disabled leaseholders fighting for a number of changes, including making these PEEPs mandatory. Co-founder Sarah Rennie is with us now. Hello Sarah. 
SARAH- Hi, thanks for having me. 
NIKKI- Let’s start off with your reaction. What is your reaction to the government’s decision not to mandate PEEPs for disabled residents on upper floors?
SARAH- Well, we were horrified because this has gone on now for five years. It’s five years since Grenfell and what lessons have been learnt? We had very clear recommendations from the Grenfell Tower Enquiry that building owners needed to have plans for evacuations in their blocks, and personalised plans for disabled people. We’ve had consultation after consultation. The government has faced legal challenge. And yet it’s doubled down and said no, and for the most absurd reasons. And you just feel when you hear the Fire Safety Minister say, you might get in the way of others who need to evacuate, oh it just makes you feel sick. 
NIKKI- I know you’re a wheelchair user, aren’t you Sarah, and you and other people have lived in tower blocks without these official escape plans. And I’m just wondering how that feels. Do you worry about this a lot?
SARAH- I did until I was in the very fortunate position of having an evacuation plan. And I fought tooth and nail to get one with my, thankfully I’ve got the support of all my neighbours and our board of residents. And I have an ex-demo evacuation chair which my neighbours funded with me. I’ve got a team of personal assistants with me around the clock, so they operate it. but most people are getting flat no, you can’t have one.
NIKKI- Yeah, and I wonder how those people feel about the situation, because you must be in contact with these people. How do they feel? 
SARAH- Frightened, like their lives are of less value, struggling to sleep at night. And many people are afraid of talking about it for fear of being told, oh you shouldn’t really be living there; and what might those consequences be: a care home, being moved out of your community where you’ve got a good support network. 
EMMA- PEEPs don’t have to be a big thing, do they Sarah? It could be a conversation and a little bit more than that, but it doesn’t have to be a massive, complicated plan, does it?
SARAH- No. In most cases this is about having a conversation and what would happen, what barriers might you come up against as you go to evacuate, and how could we mitigate them. It might be as simple as making sure that your deaf neighbour heard the alarm. How much is it reasonable to spend as we protect the taxpayer from cost? In a lot of cases it’s nothing. The plan might be for a few neighbours to knock on your door and say, can I give you an arm down the stairs. In most case there is no cost. In my case it was a few hundred because it was second hand. 
NIKKI- Sarah, just stay with us for a second. Because I wanted to ask you, Emma, what are the next steps on this?
EMMA- Well, the government is consulting on an alternative proposal. It’s called Emergency Evacuation Information Sharing. It’ll apply only to buildings that are considered high risk. And it will involve a fire risk assessment for disabled people who have been identified as needing support. That’s what they’re consulting on now and that finishes in a few weeks’ time. 
NIKKI- Okay. What are your thoughts on that, Sarah?
SARAH- We’re not happy. It’s not evacuation; it’s going to be rescue. By waiting for the fire service, which can take 20 minutes, half an hour before they can get up in a high rise building, your chance of survival drops significantly. So, the responsibility is being passed to the fire service. I’m sure they’ve got something to say about that. And information about me is going to be shared on some kind of IT system; well I want to know about data security for a start because it’s sensitive information. But also what’s the point? Okay, what if it explains about my osteoporosis and how I can be lifted and my head support and risk of fractures? The fire service and rescue is frankly not going to care because they’re going to try and save my life. So, I could have life-changing injuries, when I could have quite safely 25 minutes before started to evacuate comfortably. It’s frankly a nonsense.
NIKKI- What would you like to see happen to resolve this whole issue? Are we just sticking with PEEPs?
SARAH- The government needs to implement the Grenfell Tower Enquiry recommendations. Disabled people need evacuation plans. If there are any costs they need to be funded centrally. 
NIKKI- Well, a Home Office spokesperson told us, ‘Our fire reforms will go further than ever before to protect vulnerable people. The Emergency Evacuation Information Sharing package we are consulting on would require those responsible for fire safety in higher risk buildings to properly assess the needs of the most vulnerable and take steps to mitigate any risks’. Does that help, Sarah?
SARAH- No. 
NIKKI- No. Thank you so much for coming on and explaining it so beautifully. We’ll definitely keep across this story for sure. And we’ll have you back on again and we’ll let you know the results of the government’s latest consultation when they’re released.  Now, if you’ve got any stories about PEEPs or housing, good or bad, we’d love to hear from you. So, email us accessall@bbc.co.uk.   Now, if you got in touch with us after last week’s podcast thank you, thank you, thank you. We really do love hearing from you wherever you are. Now, Marjorie in Leeds got in touch with us, Em. She heard about Access All on our sister podcast, Newscast, which is great.
EMMA- Absolutely brilliant. Sharing the love, I love it. 
NIKKI- She says, ‘I like the range of items you’re covering’. Oh hello, ‘And Nikki and Emma’s presenting style’. 
EMMA- Oh Marjorie.
NIKKI- She likes our presenting style, go us Em, high five. Oh hang on, she did also say – she gives with one hand, she takes with the other – she did also say she didn’t think we were giving contributors quite enough time. Oh, but apparently we did nail it with Frank and Adie last week. Thank goodness for that. Phew.
EMMA- Oh, do you know it is really hard to give contributors…
NIKKI- It is hard. I agree with you actually, Marjorie.
EMMA- Yeah. I had a long chat with Joe and Liz Kimber and learned lots and lots of things, but it’s sometimes just the way and the shape of the piece and how it works out. It’s always a really difficult decision. 
NIKKI- Yeah. Well, we’ve had other emails, Emma, suggesting ideas for future programmes which are helpful, so keep those coming in as well. And we had a great response to Frank Gardner’s Heathrow Airport story where he was left alone for an hour on a plane because there weren’t the staff to deliver his wheelchair back to him. Now, Richard in London wrote to us with the longest list of plane access issues I’ve seen in a very long time. But we were only covering that, weren’t we, wheelchairs back to plane doors; but we do know, we are very aware that there are a whole raft of issues when it comes to flying when you’ve got a disability. Now, Richard told us he agrees with Frank. He said, ‘There is a serious management hole in providing the seamless service promised. Airlines and airports must do better. And it really can be resolved easily, which could save the airline and the airport money, as well as the poor passenger having to pay premium waiting time fees’. Does he mean for like taxis and stuff? 
EMMA- Yeah, and actually that’s the bit that got me when Frank said that because that’s the thing that often affects me if I’m waiting on a plane for someone to come and get me is that I’ve booked all these things ahead of it, in hope I suppose. And one of them is the taxi, and you do end up paying a lot more than you would. It’s just another extra cost of being disabled. [Cash register sound]. Tick.
NIKKI- Another extra cost. Now, this is a bit different Emma. On a happy note, Dennis got in touch, Dennis had two major hip operations recently and says he’s registered disabled. He said en-route from Switzerland he had help from Birmingham Airport and also at Amsterdam to get connected to Basle, and from Basle Airport to the waiting coach. He says he was taken to the taxi rank and was shown nothing but kindness and respect, even though he had to wait to de-plane – that’s a good way of saying it – the cabin and flight crew were really nice. He says, it’s not all bad if you have good people to talk with.  Now, we’ve also got an update on our story from two weeks ago, Emma, about tactile paving which warns blind passengers where the edge of the train platform is. 
ARTUR- I was on my way to work and my guide dog was guiding me along the platform and I didn’t realise how close I was to the edge because there was no tactile paving on the edge, and I slipped from the edge, fell down into the track. 
NIKKI- That was Artur, whose story we featured. Now, the Lib Dems did a freedom of information request recently and have been in touch with us here at Access All. They asked Network Rail to publish a list of all passenger platforms which currently don’t have tactile strips along the whole length. Now, they listed 1,710 of them. Now, that’s the actual platforms, not the stations. And that’s including some big stations in Britain like London Waterloo, Nottingham, Birmingham International and Plymouth; the list goes on and on. Now, we’re going to follow this story to see if that 1,710 number of platforms goes down in the next year. 
EMMA- I wonder how long it takes them to put a strip on, and how they’re deciding what the next platforms are. I know they say it’s like footfall and stuff but it would be interesting to tick them off. 
NIKKI- Remember you can email us with all of your thoughts and stories on accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or alternatively get on WhatsApp, send us a text or a voice note. Our number is 0330 123 9480. [Music] Now, Chelsea, Chelsea Flower Show, Ems.
EMMA- Tell me all about Chelsea Flower Show. I know there are blind gardeners, but flowers and I have not got a very strong relationship. What were you doing there? What was it like? Who were you with? How was it?
NIKKI- Oh that was great. Well, my mum is a very talented gardener, and you know that I’m dating a gardener as well, so it’s like flowers are in my life. But my mum she’s always been a brilliant gardener. When we could afford our first house after about seven years of us being born, well me being born in 1980, my mum was like, this is what I want to do, I want to create a beautiful space for my daughters. Because we were growing up in the ‘80s, mum had two disabled kids, and my dad was off working his little socks off as a builder. And I didn’t realise it, because like I say my mum is a very optimistic, happy person, but actually my mum felt really quite isolated during that time. And for her the garden and gardening was a way that she could just forget how she felt. On those days where she felt a bit blue she’d get in the garden and she’d create something beautiful. And she’s beautiful and she likes creating; her surroundings are always beautiful, her houses are always decorated beautifully, often from second-hand places. She’s brilliant at it. 
EMMA- And it meant that she didn’t have to take you guys to inaccessible places. She was making her own castle beautiful and accessible and lovely for you. 
NIKKI- Yeah. And I never knew this but she told me the day before we went to Chelsea that actually, my sister and I both went to mainstream schools, now I had a fine time at mainstream school, I had a lot of friends that are still my friends now, but actually mum said she felt very isolated because we weren’t actually invited to the parties with the other kids. Which I don’t massively remember, but this is when we were a bit younger. She was saying it wasn’t that anyone was horrible or nasty or anything like that, it’s just they didn’t know how to react to probably the mum with two kids who are disabled; they just didn’t know. So, actually when I think back mum wasn’t really part of that school gang thing, you know. 
EMMA- Because the playground thing is really difficult for mums actually. You’re trying to make friends for your kids and it can be a tricky one. I’m lucky, I’ve got really, really nice mums in the playground that I go to, but it’s not easy.
NIKKI- Well, mum did really struggle over COVID. She got very anxious. She’s prone to anxiety. My sister just said to her, ‘Why don’t you document your garden transformation?’ Because she had to get her head down in the garden to make herself feel better. She said, ‘Why don’t you just put all your lovely pictures on Instagram?’ Well, in a year, Emma, she’s become Insta famous. I pop up on the One Show every so often, I’ve got like four followers, I don’t know, maybe 3,000 I think. Mum in one year nearly 40,000. She’s Insta famous. 
EMMA- Wow, that’s huge!
NIKKI- Honestly, I know. 
EMMA- Could she share our podcast?
NIKKI- I’m on it like a bonnet, trust me. But she was brilliant yesterday. I think we’ve got a little clip of her. I’m so proud. 
MUM- When I decided to do the back garden properly after COVID we sat in the back garden and I thought, I’m going to have to do this garden. Because I’d never had time for it. And I did the garden and my other daughter, Rachel, said, ‘Why don’t you put a picture on your Instagram account?’ which I did. And within a few weeks gardeners started contacting and sending little messages and saying, that’s great. And it’s just grown from that. And there’s this wonderful gardening Insta community; they’re the best people. 
NIKKI- I was so proud of mum. And it was just so lovely to see her shine. 
EMMA- What a lovely thing to get to do with your mum. 
NIKKI- Yeah, really special. Real, real lovely memory. And she’s buzzing. And she met Monty Don, so hello. 
Music- Access All with Nikki Fox.
NIKKI- Well, I am very excited about special guest today. I have stalked her within an inch of her life. Her name is Lucy and she is a wonder. I’m kind of looking at her, I can see your wonderful red hair. But let’s have a listen to what she sounds like on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio One. 
LUCY- Put your hands up for Radio One. Hey, hey, hey, huns welcome back to Radio One anthems, with your girl Lucy Edwards, and of course gorgeous guide dog, Olga. We have amazing 2011 tracks for you on the way, some banging tunes, bit of…
NIKKI- That’s it, I want to go out. Who’s with me? We’re going out, out. Lucy, that was amazing!
LUCY- Thank you honey. It’s so lovely to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
NIKKI- Oh no, honestly, the pleasure is all ours. Thank you so much. Now, if you didn’t catch the presenter’s name it was the lovely Lucy Edwards, who was Radio One’s first ever blind presenter. Does that clip take you back? How does it feel listening to that?
LUCY- A bit surreal still, even to this day. It does take me back quite a long time because, oh my gosh, I remember feeling so much pressure to push the sliders. Because I had Blu-Tack on the sliders. 
NIKKI- Did you?
LUCY- Yeah, literally. And the producers were so sweet. They’d never worked with a blind person before. So, yeah we were DIY’ing it a little bit. But also it was just such an immense feeling to be live between Christmas, I think they call it Betwixmas, between Boxing Day and the New Year. I was in the studio with my guide dog. It was so cute. 
NIKKI- And logistically, you mentioned there about the Blu-Tack, were there any other kind of logistics that you had to deal with?
LUCY- Yes, I did drive the desk, and basically I got tapped by the producer. You have like a bed fader, so obviously the music that you hear underneath me on that clip there. So, yeah really cool from a blind perspective as well. 
NIKKI- But you’re not just a pioneering radio presenter, you are also a massive name on TikTok. Now, you have got nearly 2 million followers. I need to tap you up for some advice because I’m diabolical on social media. But how did you get into that?
LUCY- At the start I kind of had all of these headlines almost on my phone of all different things that I wanted to chat about. And because it was during the pandemic all eyes were on social media back then and everyone was in the house. And I thought how can I educate, like I’m not a dancer, but how could I educate and put the New Learn on TikTok hashtag was kind of trending. And my sister-in-law who’s a lot younger than me, Phoebe said to me, Luce you need to get on this. 
NIKKI- Is that where the whole ‘how does a blind girl?’ the hashtag start?
LUCY- Yeah. So, I started every video with ‘How does a blind girl?’ and people were like, I have no idea how you do things. Even my closest friends who I’d known for ten, 12 years they were like, ‘We don’t live with you so we don’t know how you do some things’. They were even like, it’s so cool.
NIKKI- They’re kind of the questions, aren’t they, that people want to ask; they want to ask but they don’t ask. And talking of how does a blind girl, ‘how does a blind girl know what’s in a jar?’, that got nearly 16 million views. And it had lots of funky remixes too. Here’s a clip:
CLIP- How does a blind girl know what’s in a jar? I have magnetic PenFriend labels that I just place on top of a jar. But what is a PenFriend? It’s a device that allows me to record audio labels. 
LUCY- I love it.
NIKKI- Okay, that’s a bit of funky technology.
LUCY- It is really cool. It’s a PenFriend from the RNIB. It’s so cool. I’ve had it for years. What happened to that is because I said, well apparently, ‘How does a blind girl know what’s in a jar?’ really melodically, this other guy called Max kind of stitched my video and then he was dancing to it, and everyone in the comments was like, ‘That’s so offensive, you can’t dance to someone’s video like that who’s blind, I’m sure she’s watching this and it’s horrendous’. And I was like no, it’s funny. And my fiancé actually remixed that and it got to 16 in the dance charts!
NIKKI- It did not?
LUCY- Yeah, it did. 
CLIP- How does a blind girl know what’s in a jar?
NIKKI- Oh my goodness. 
LUCY- When I say that it’s still insane. I love it. 
NIKKI- Well, you’ve touched on your lovely fiancé Ollie, who I know all about now because I’ve stalked you, like I say. How much do you decide to reveal, what to reveal and what not to reveal?
LUCY- It’s hard, yeah. You want to keep some things private. And I think you’re always treading the line when you’re on social media as how much to share. I think ultimately it’s what you feel comfortable with at the time. Again, you’re very conscious if you click publish it’s out there forever. So, my main goal with this and it always has been it’s always I want to help people, I want to spread a message, I want to educate. But there is a line in that if I have kids I don’t want to necessarily show their faces; I want to show my experience and mine only. But Ollie’s fine. Ollie comes on and he’s very sweet, bless him. 
NIKKI- One thing you did touch on in one of your TikToks you were talking about how you and the boyfriend were considering having a baby together. 
LUCY- Yes. Yay!
NIKKI- Are there lots of things you have to consider, being a blind mum?
LUCY- Oh my gosh, yes. I mean, I don’t even know where to start. I will be looking to Mumsnet. I know there are amazing Facebook groups and Emma herself. 
EMMA- I’ll help you.
LUCY- Yes, I was just about to say, I was literally next thing, Emma is here and is much more experienced than me. 
EMMA- I can see all the TikToks now: ‘How does a blind girl catch their child in the playground? How does a blind girl give their child medicine?’ I can talk about this forever, so if you have one question right now what would it be, do you think? 
LUCY- I think breastfeeding is really quite daunting for me. I don’t know why. I think like latching and everything. I keep looking at videos of different people doing it and I’m like, oh what do I do.
EMMA- Oh, don’t start me on breastfeeding, I’ll be here all day. It’s hard for everybody but it’s absolutely all by touch. You’re best off sort of really trusting your instincts and using your touch in every way you can, and knowing your body and knowing your baby’s body and letting your baby do what it needs to do. I know that sounds really hippy-dippy and there are loads of other things to consider. But I think it’s easy to think that a blind girl can’t breastfeed because you hear people talk about how you look at the baby’s mouth and how open it is and you look at where it is in relation to you, but actually it’s absolutely and utterly fine to do it by touch. It’s perfectly doable, and it’s actually in some ways more natural and better not to be trying to do the visuals all the time. 
NIKKI- How many kids have you got, Emma?
EMMA- Two, so they’re four and nearly seven. And I can’t catch them in a playground. The pregnancy thing will be interesting too. Sometimes on the Tube I didn’t get a seat when I was very pregnant because people I think would look at me and they’d say, she’s blind, she’s pregnant, uh, that’s too much, I can’t process it therefore I can’t get my words out in time to offer her a seat. It felt a bit like that. 
LUCY- Yeah. This is the thing I think again, opening up on social media as well, Emma, what you’re saying there, I guess people’s perceptions is another hurdle. I’ve already kind of come to terms with people asking me questions. However, questions about me, my body, my baby that is another kind of mental hurdle to get over I guess. It’s interesting that you say that you had would you say stereotypes, people kind of judging you? 
EMMA- Do you know what, I had a lot less judgement than I thought. It took me a long time to make the decision to have kids, and I worried what people would think. But everyone was universally positive. I think they were just, how are you going to manage and how do you manage; but not in a why are you doing this way, more in a, I literally can’t figure that out myself. Like you I’ve always been asked how I manage, so it’s just another thing. So, no I’ve had a lot of positivity. But again, like the gym thing, it’s a lot in my head before I went for it. 
NIKKI- What big plans have you got coming up this year? 
LUCY- Wedding eventually. Oh my gosh. I’m actually getting married next year. I was going to get married in 2020, but anyway, that’ll be lovely. 
NIKKI- We know what happened. 
LUCY- Yeah. Work wise I became a Pantene ambassador, and work wise I always look at accessible tactile packaging and trying to change the way that we think and feel about products that we consume as visually impaired customers. But not only that, in a universal way: so how can we incorporate universal design into everything that we touch. Going forward I’m definitely in the beauty industry and that is a massive part of my plans next year to launch a few bits, and just tell my story more with my words. 
NIKKI- Lucy, you are an absolute superstar. And one thing I want to ask all of our big guests that come on the podcast: as a disabled person, or me I’m physically disabled, but I have a lot of funny stories. Lots of things have happened in my life, Lucy. Like for example I went for an interview once, I was very nervous, my handbag got trapped on my accelerator of my scooter, I went flying through the door and straight under a table. 
LUCY- Oh no!
NIKKI- And I actually got the gig as well. I’ve got many more but some too risky to talk about on the podcast. But have you got something in your life that’s happened because you’re blind that is hilariously funny?
LUCY- Several things. It’s always that moment where I was between Olga and then my new guide dog, Molly, both of them live with me, but I was doing my cane training. And oh my gosh, I don’t mind my cane, it gets me from A to B, but I don’t know whether you say this Emma, but having a cane you don’t necessarily always go for a casual walk with your cane. It’s definitely you are going somewhere. I was walking to the shop and I just, it’s just this moment where I was like, oh I’ve just rolled over something, I was like oh smell, it’s obviously dog pooh. And so you have to turn back round, and it’s one of those moments where you’re like oh my life, I need to have wipes in my bag. So, ever since now I’m like this girl with Dettol wipes in my bag.  
NIKKI- Okay, and on that note, Lucy it has been so lovely to chat to you. Honestly, thank you so much for coming on. And I’m going to look forward to keeping up with all your social media and your presenting and your adverts. I’m even going to get myself on TikTok just for you. So, thank you so much Lucy.
LUCY- Love it. It’s been so lovely to chat to you and you too Emma. And I’ll speak to you both soon, ladies. 
NIKKI- Bye lovely. Thank you so much for listening again. Now, don’t forget you can email us, accessall@bbc.co.uk. We’d love to hear from you. We’re going to be taking a little break next week because it’s the Queen’s Jubilee celebrations. So, we’re going to be back in two weeks and we will see you then. 
EMMA- Bye.
NIKKI- Bye.