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Katie : Hello, and welcome to Adapt The World which is all about learning how we can make the world more accessible and inclusive for disabled people, from content creators that you probably already follow. My name is Katie Thistleton, and I'm a presenter on Radio One's Life Hacks. And I've got my wonderful co host India Sasha with me. 

India: Hello, yes. So I'm India and I am a content creator from Northern Ireland and I predominantly make TikToks and stuff about my disability just to try and you know, normalise it about the social space and be a bit of education out there in a really digestible, funny kind of way. Which is perfect because trying to normalise it, that's exactly kind of what we're trying to discuss a lot of on this podcast. 

Katie: That's exactly what we're doing. We're asking disabled people, if you were to rebuild the world tomorrow, what three things would you change to make life fairer and easier for disabled people?  And in this episode, we're asking Anoushé Husain. Anoushé was born missing her right arm below the elbow, living with multiple health conditions and a cancer survivor. During the day, Anoushé is a civil servant, and she's also a paraclimber in the UK, amongst many other things, and she joins us now. Hello, Anoushé!

Anoushé: Hi

India: That is an impressive, impressive introduction that you've just had there, that is incredible. A power climber… is that just like it's climbing with disability?

Anoushé: Yeah, essentially, yeah, it's climbing, but the para version of it.

Katie: How did you get into that?

Anoushé: So effectively having cancer got me into it. My, I'm missing my right arm below the elbow, and my left arm got impacted post treatment. So one of my best friends sort of went, well come climbing because it will force your left arm to move a lot more and get stronger and things like that, and just helped me my personal independence. And fast forward a few years. It was just basically a hobby and then turned out they had competitions. And I went off and started competing and ranking in the UK. And now I'm an international power climber with a Guinness World Record. So yeah, kind of spiralled and went from something I was going to do every couple of months over lunch with a friend to, I'm sitting in my office with a climbing wall next to me.

Katie: Oh, my goodness, I can see it. I can see it in the mirror there. You've got. I'm so jealous of people who have a climbing wall in their house. Have you ever been climbing India?

India: I have tried it, I have. And I did like it. I did. But I hate heights.

Katie: Oh, okay

India: So it's like, I like the whole thing of being able to do it. And it's like, I like the kind of pattern that you get into do you know where it's kind of like problem solving as you're going up. And you feel incredible, like whenever you're climbing, but then you get so high. And it's just so scary.

Katie: You could do bouldering, where you just stay at like one height and go along, couldn't you so I've like done a little bit of climbing literally like you know gone to a couple of climbing centres. And every time I've done it, I've been like, this is so fun, I really want to get into it. And then obviously, like all of my hobbies, I just end up not doing it again. But it just makes you feel so strong and capable, doesn’t it?

Anoushé: Exactly and I’ve found out of all the sports I've done, it's probably the most inclusive, because, I mean, I have really variable health. And at one point in 2020, I was back to being hoisted on the climbing wall, I literally had such a bad degradation. 

And the thing is like there was still something for me to climb, there was still a way to adapt it and so yeah, I mean, I run paraclimbing London, and it's literally we've not yet had somebody who cannot come up with us, regardless of the type of disability, including sort of quite severe learning disabilities as well. So we've not had any issues with that. 

The only thing I'd say, if you're scared of heights go sideways. 

Katie: Yeah! (laughs) 

India: I'll give that a go next time, the climbing wall. So tell us more about you and what it is that you do.

Anoushé: Yeah, so I'm, I'm a civil servant by day, climber by night and everything else by any other spare time I have. So I'm an advocate, mainly a disability advocate but I'm a diversity and inclusion professional as well. That's my day job. But I'm also a massive, massive advocate for all people basically experiencing stigma, not because of who they choose to be, but because of who they are. So the whole thing is, you can't choose the colour of your skin, who you're born to, where you're born, what background you're born to, what your sexual orientation is, how you identify from a gender perspective, what disability you might have either started with or have acquired through life. And yet we have people, all of these amazing people with such amazing potential who just can't get to their potential simply because of barriers experienced by society. Either because people don't believe they can do what they can or they've not even given a chance to try and therefore not given a chance to learn, fail and develop.

India: Well, that's kind of like a really good kind of lead on to your questions about what you would do to change and make the world more inclusive for people with disabilities. So what would be your first thing that you would change tomorrow if you could?

Anoushé: The thing I really change is making the world accessible by default. I'm sick of seeing things that are just like this could have been done so much better if somebody thought about it from the first, from the get go. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not even talking about just physical accessibility. It could be like sensory accessibility. The whole lot. I mean, why don't we have Braille on every single item that exists by default? Like, so that means that people who have visual impairments who are relying on Braille have that? Why aren't we all learning sign language in schools? Or at least gestures in schools? Yeah, the whole lot accessible by default

Katie: It’s a really good point, isn't it, you see a lot of changes happening in the world all the time, you know, in a positive way, which is great. And perhaps these changes aren't happening enough or fast enough. But here's an example, you know, obviously, we've been talking a lot about it on on Life Hacks about the environment and you know, I've even noticed just over the past couple of weeks, you know, they've made the, like the fizzy pop bottles, they've made the lids, so that they don't come off. And it's like, you know, that these things can be implemented, and you're seeing sort of like, all these kinds of things come in now that things are more biodegradable, and things are changing to make the world a greener place, which is amazing, and we need it. But surely those things can be done to make the world more accessible for disabled people to like you say, with the Braille, like, it sounds massive to put Braille on everything. But surely each company can just sort of start doing that and that is something that we can just start implementing from now on.

Anoushé: Yeah, and you have the same thing with say, we all started working from home during the pandemic, and suddenly everybody's like, Oh, my God, there’s hybrid working, I was hybrid working before the pandemic, but it's such a hard right for so many disabled people to have gotten that before the pandemic. How did we as a whole society shift? Like within two weeks?

Katie: We did, you're right. If there's one thing that pandemic showed us, it's how adaptable we are?

Anoushé: And how how, why is it that suddenly because everybody needed it, it was okay to do. Closed captions on TikTok, and YouTube and all of them were made because people didn't want to listen to their phones on loud on public transport, not because disabled people actually needed to read the captions.

Katie: Because the masses all of a sudden needed it. So actually, when we're forced to adapt like this, we can do like these things are absolutely possible, which is why we need people like you shouting about it Anoushé. Let's get to the second thing that you would change about the world.

Anoushé: So the second thing I’d change is about what we do to each other in the world, which is called ‘otherring’. So you often find disabled people are seen as maybe less human or other people compared to the normal humanity that we experience. And therefore, we just get treated a bit worse. I have this as a classic example of I have two wheelchairs, so my main active wheelchair, which I used to go out and about on my own, but if I'm in my sort of backup chair, when mine is in repair, and I go out with my husband, nobody speaks to me, they speak to him, even if I'm the one paying the bill. They just don't, they just assume that I can't speak. I was in an airport last week, and people asked my husband about what I whether I could walk down the stairs in front of me. So it's just you know, it's not okay. I can speak, people can ask me if I can speak. And if I can't speak and people asked me though, it'll become really clear really quickly. And that's the thing, it's othering.

Katie: And it's probably something that half the time we don't even realise we do, these people probably aren't even realising they're doing it because it's so unconscious.

India: Yeah like, I definitely think it's like a societal thing in the way that we were brought up to see disability, or maybe not see disability and how we don't ever be exposed to different types of people. So we just, it's almost like we completely extract them from our heads from being equal to us. It's kind of just brushed off as a person. And it's just completely overlooked.

Katie: But it's all learnt, isn't it? You know when you see these videos about like babies, like they don't care what you know, race somebody is, if they’ve got a disability, what gender they are, like, they will just treat everyone the same. And then, you know, give it a few years and we start to learn like, oh, that person's different to me. And then we put up a bit of a barrier.

India: Yeah, so it's like a learned type of attitude. 

Katie: Yeah definitely. And maybe just a bit of a fear, maybe just a bit of a fear that we don't know, how to speak to somebody, we think that they're not the same as us. So you know, will they understand what I'm saying? And will I offend them? You Know

Anoushé: And often it's Yeah, it’s fear of offence. But that causes, unfortunately that just causes inauthentic conversations as well which just, which is just just such a shame really. 

Katie: Yeah. What's the third thing that you would change about the world Anoushé?

Anoushé: So it follows on from the othering, which is basically let people try and let people fail. The whole thing is often disabled people aren't even allowed to try things and therefore they aren't. We don't get to see what potential they have. Because we don't allow them to learn and to fail at that point. We just say no, this isn't for you. Because you know, we've never seen another disabled person try it. Like paraclimber wearing a headscarf going out and climbing internationally. Definitely isn't, isn't a common occurrence. But it's helped so many other people start climbing as a consequence, because they've seen somebody do it. Right. So I just think we need to be doing that. Even if it doesn't work out. Just give it a shot. Let people try.

India: Yeah, see that kind of I have a sort of experience that sort of relates to what you just said. Whenever I was in school, I wanted to play hockey and I was I was playing hockey kind of casually with everybody that was in my year, during PE and stuff, and a lot of people on the team, the actual hockey team that were in my year, were saying to me kind of like, you're actually good at this, you should come on, and you should actually compete against other schools and stuff. And I'm very competitive so this kind of like made me light up and I was thinking, Oh, here's something that I could maybe try and be really excited for. And for some reason, they just wouldn't let me and my mum rang the school and she asked them, she was like, what is it? Why can’t my daughter not be allowed to play hockey and why is she not allowed to try out for the team and stuff. And the PE teacher literally said to my mother, who gave birth to me and raised me for at the time, 13 or 14 years? Did you know your daughter has no hand? So that was kind of like, like, it was the most ridiculous…

Katie: Oh I didn’t know, I didn't know notice that! What?!

India: I know, I did this whole thing about it on TikTok because it is one of those things you don't realise. Like this was maybe when I was 13, or 14, it's not that long ago, it’s about eight years ago. And it was a really big thing 

Katie: How bizarre…

India: And yeah, we complained and stuff. 

Katie: And did you manage to play hockey in the end? Did you get through that?

India: Nope, I was just that upset, this is before I came out of my shell, because see how learning to be comfortable with your disability, sometimes, you're not even comfortable with it yourself, to have to be able to fight for your rights to be able to fight to be in a place that everybody else gets a chance to do. Like you just have to come out. And you've got an extra thing to come out of yourself for and an extra thing to build yourself up to face.

Katie: That can set you back, those kind of things can really set you back. Surely.

Anoushé: It can and the thing is if the world was accessible by default, and we didn't other people, and we let people try and fail. You wouldn't have had that setback in the first place. It's like me, I went to a funfair when I was 17. I wanted to try the bows and arrows game. I wasn't allowed to because the guy was like, Well, I don't want to take your money because you'll lose. 

Katie: How patronising…

Anoushé: I don’t care If I’m going to lose, I just want to have a try. And he was like, you can't do it, I was like, Yes, I can, I did archery this summer.

Katie: I’m sure he was happy taking everyone else's money who lost? That's how he makes his money, isn't it?

Anoushé:  Feeling sorry for me, rather than actually just letting me try and have some fun. I was so upset. And at that age, you don't, you know, whatever age you are, you shouldn't have to be self advocating for who you are and what you want to do. If you're clearly showing potential, then why don't they let you try and fail and learn?

Katie: Yeah, yeah. And I think when I think about everybody, I know who has a disability,  you guys have such an attitude of I can do everything and I'm going to try I'm going to try and do this thing, possibly more than people who don't have disabilities who can maybe sometimes be we can all be a bit like, oh, no, I find any old excuse not to do things, and I can't do that. Do you think? Do you guys feel like you have that attitude that can do, I'm gonna give it a go attitude because you feel like maybe the world has told you no. So you're like, No, I'm gonna prove them wrong.

India: Yeah, definitely think so I think it's something that you're kind of just, even how do you find that? Like, do you find that you yourself are often trying to force yourself to allow yourself to accept help? Because I know that's something that I really struggle with?

Katie: Oh, really?

India: I'm so like, 

Katie: You’re like No, I can do it. 

India: Yeah, exactly. Like, I almost become too against myself. And refusing help that I want to try it myself.

Anoushé: I have, there are pictures of me trying to carry three loads of laundry, including like three complete dry loads of laundry to take it to another room, balancing one load on one half an arm and another load on the other half an arm. And I believe I balanced top load between my head and what was the top of the two loads. I refuse to ask for help. So many times, I just carry far too many things. And especially since I became an ambulant wheelchair user, where I do genuinely have mobility problems that are like, I can't compensate for any more. It's so much harder saying, hey, I need help. Or relying on that help. Because say I can't open a door somewhere because I don’t know, the door is in a really inaccessible place or something. It's just, it's really hard because for me, it's reinforcing that sort of sense of people going well, she can't, but I can. I just don't want to cause an accident doing it, I guess. Maybe but yeah, no I really struggle asking for help.

India : Yeah, maybe that's something that we could probably work on a bit more just kind of, like literally letting ourselves not have to be so, it's really hard to unlearn that because you've had to learn to rely upon yourself like growing up. And it does, I've left myself sometimes where I'm doing so much with the one arm that it's been shaken for a couple of days after. And it's not good at the same time, we should be looking after ourselves

Katie : Everyone's got their limits, and you will have a limit as well and sometimes you do need that help, but I totally get why your attitude would be no, I can do this. 

India: Oh, yeah, Independent woman.

Katie: And on top of it you’re both women as well and I think even just as a woman, I'm like that I'm like, no, I can do it.

India: Oh, yeah.

Katie: You know, so you've got all those things adding up haven’t you, and you’re like I can do this, leave me alone.

India: There's nothing more motivating than being told you can't do something. 

Katie: Well Anoushé thank you so much for your time. And thank you to you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed our chat in this episode. And hopefully you feel like you've learned something new. We've got loads of chats with amazing people just like Anoushé available right now on the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Sounds App, just search Adapt the World.