成人论坛

NIKKI- Hi everyone, it鈥檚 Nikki and Emma here.聽

EMMA- We are passionate about stories on disability, mental health and wellbeing, and we really want more people to hear them through this pod, Access All.

NIKKI- So if you can, please can you follow and subscribe to Access All on 成人论坛 Sounds, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, it really helps others find this pod, and we really appreciate it.

MUSIC- Music

NIKKI- The enemy of the disabled, the cold.

EMMA- Pretty much haven鈥檛 left my house this week, Nikki. It鈥檚 slippy and it was snowy, and we know that we call snow blind man鈥檚 fog because it kind of coats everything and you can鈥檛 hear properly, all your [sound] shadows are kind of muffled with snow. But then the ice and the slippiness, can鈥檛 see patches of ice, get on them too quickly. Obviously everyone has to go out, and blind people figure out a way round it, but I鈥檝e opted to stay at home. But it鈥檚 cold that bothers you, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI- Snow and ice, really not my friend when I used to walk, Em. But now I use the scooter majoritively it鈥檚 not quite so problematic. But, you know, getting in and out of the car, if I put my feet down anywhere or do any form of standing, yeah ice is just a nightmare. But for me as well it鈥檚 the cold. Obviously when I used to walk, you can keep yourself warm because you鈥檙e using so much energy. But when you sit down you鈥檙e not really moving a great deal, even though I try and swing my arms furiously.

EMMA- Yeah, I was going to say, all the ways of keeping warm are kind of like very sort of muscly.

NIKKI- [Sings] 鈥淭hey are physical, physical鈥�.

EMMA- Yeah, very physical. Because you鈥檙e between a rock and a hard place, aren鈥檛 you, because you can鈥檛 swing your arms around, you鈥檙e sitting down. But also you can鈥檛 wear that many clothes, like you can鈥檛 bundle yourself up in a big coat.

NIKKI- Unless you put like loads of hot water bottles, are the only kind of thing.

EMMA- What is your tip would you say for surviving?

NIKKI- Tip? You鈥檙e asking me for a tip, Ems?

EMMA- A tip, yeah.

NIKKI- Oh blimey.

EMMA- Advice. Expert.

NIKKI- Well, I鈥檓 at the age now where I鈥檓 quite looking forward to an excuse not to leave the house. Stay at home, I鈥檓 all for it. I don鈥檛 get FOMO anymore, fear of missing out, I get JOMO, the joy of missing out.

MUSIC- Theme Music

NIKKI- This is Access All. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox, and I鈥檓 in London.

EMMA- And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and I鈥檓 back in a very, very 鈥渂rrr鈥� chilly Edinburgh.

NIKKI- This is your weekly podcast about disability and mental health from the 成人论坛.

MUSIC- Music

NIKKI- [Sings] 鈥淚t鈥檚 Christmas鈥�.

EMMA- [Sings] 鈥淚t鈥檚 Chrismaaaaaaas鈥�.

NIKKI- I鈥檓 trying to do it in a Noddy Holder kind of way, because I was listening to someone on the radio say that apparently he does that every year to his family.

EMMA- He just says it in his house?

NIKKI- Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes round his whole household and does, [Sings] 鈥淚t鈥檚 Christmaaas鈥� in a Noddy Holder way.

EMMA- I love that.

NIKKI- I know.

EMMA- I love that he doesn鈥檛 hate that with a passion.

NIKKI- No. It鈥檚 brilliant, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA- I do. It鈥檚 great. It鈥檚 brilliant.

NIKKI- My first one in the bungalow, this one.

EMMA- Your first Christmas in the bungalow.

NIKKI- I mean I鈥檓 not going to be there on Christmas Day, obviously I鈥檒l still be with my fam who I love and adore.

EMMA- Yeah. But you will be there during the festive period.

NIKKI- Yeah. In-between Christmas and New Year, Dave and I will spend a couple of days there, along with him being with my family and vice-versa. So yeah, that鈥檚 how it鈥檚 going to work. So we鈥檝e got our very first Christmas tree.

EMMA- Awwh. Have you put a lot of decorations up?

NIKKI- No, we haven鈥檛 actually. Really boring. But with work when we see each other we kind of just want to smooch.

EMMA- Oh my goodness, that鈥檚 so romantic. Have you got a bit of mistletoe then?

NIKKI- It鈥檚 quite romantic and disgusting at the same time. We don鈥檛 need mistletoe, Emma.

EMMA- But it would be cute, wouldn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI- Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah, I guess.

EMMA- I don鈥檛 even know what mistletoe feels like. What is mistletoe?

NIKKI- I think it鈥檚 quite sharp. I wouldn鈥檛 go near it, Ems.

EMMA- Is that not holly?

NIKKI- Oh, maybe.

EMMA- [Laughs]

NIKKI- I don鈥檛 have a clue, Emma Tracey, I don鈥檛 have a clue.

EMMA- My mother put up my decorations because I had to get her over for some emergency childcare a few weeks ago, and I was so overwhelmed with all the Christmassy things that I just didn鈥檛 have the headspace or the time to do it, so she did it for me.

NIKKI- Do you have to feel it all then, like all the decorations, 鈥淥h yeah, that feels all right鈥�, 鈥淭hat鈥檚 like some paper rings my kids knocked up at school鈥�?

EMMA- Do you know what, I just put up everything in the box as quickly as I can in a random order. And then I forget it鈥檚 there until like I bump into a wreath or find a bit of tinsel on the banister or something like that. I like the idea of them being up. We have a couple of wreaths that have like dried fruit, and when the house is warm it smells like Christmas. It鈥檚 not very accessible for you, putting decorations up, is it?

NIKKI- Well this is the thing. I say 鈥渨e鈥�. Dave put them up. I just sat back and was like, 鈥淎 bit more to the left鈥�, 鈥淢ore to the right鈥�, you know, yeah. So that鈥檚 the thing, you know when you鈥檙e not actually actively doing something it doesn鈥檛 feel quite the same, does it? I have to spend my life telling enough people to do something for me, I don鈥檛 really want to add to it as well at Christmas time.

EMMA- You have hit the crux of the thing there. You spend so much time asking people to do things, 鈥淐an you do this?鈥�, 鈥淲ill you do that?鈥�, 鈥淲ould you mind?鈥�, 鈥淚 know it鈥檚 a bit out of your way鈥�. I get over it after a while, and I do just not do some of the Christmassy things because I can鈥檛 bear to ask for another favour. Is that really sad?

NIKKI- No. I hear you, babe. I am with you, sister.

EMMA- Because I get so much help, I actually buy a lot of 鈥榯hank you for helping me鈥� gifts. I have an enormous pile.

NIKKI- Oh god, I don鈥檛 do that. If I had to send 鈥榯hank you for helping me鈥� gifts, I鈥檇 be bankrupt.

EMMA- Well yeah, I think it鈥檚 cost me like over 100 quid all together.

NIKKI- What?

EMMA- Deserve it. They all do good stuff for us.

NIKKI- You鈥檙e so cute. I know I sound awful now I鈥檝e just said that, but the people that I work are lovely. We do go on lots of nice things and get prezzies and stuff, and me and my sister take them out for an evening and stuff.

EMMA- You see, there you go, you do do it.

NIKKI- Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I love that. I鈥檓 always the slowest at opening my presents. Apparently even when I was younger I used to open them painfully slowly. My sister would rip through all of hers. I used to have a little notebook and I used to write down exactly who they were from and what they were.

EMMA- Awwh, that鈥檚 so cute.

NIKKI- I used to enjoy doing that.

EMMA- I thought you opened them slowly because of your impairment.

NIKKI- Here she goes again! I mean for one second I鈥檇 forgotten I was disabled then, Emma, for one second, and you had to remind me, didn鈥檛 you?

EMMA- [Laughs] This is a disability podcast, I鈥檓 just saying.

NIKKI- It鈥檚 not all about disability though, is it, Ems. Or is it?

EMMA- No, we鈥檙e not our impairments. We鈥檙e more than that.

NIKKI- Thank you. Thank you! Remember this?聽

FRANK- Once again I鈥檓 stuck on a plane at Heathrow and it does seem that disabled passengers are a lower or the lowest priority. By the time I got off the plane all the other passengers were gone, already off and out of the terminal. The trouble is that this is now the fourth time that this has happened to me. One time was extreme in 2018 when I was left stranded on a plane for an hour and 40 minutes.

NIKKI- Wow! That was Franky G, aka the 成人论坛鈥檚 Frank Gardner, and he was talking to us on Access All back in May. And that was about the fact that as a wheelchair user he had been left on a plane again. Air travel and assistance, it鈥檚 a topic that we keep hearing more and more about. We鈥檝e covered it here on the podcast, haven鈥檛 we Emma.

EMMA- We have, numerous times. But it just keeps coming back.

NIKKI- It has been a difficult time, and I think everyone recognises it鈥檚 been a difficult time. And this week, the CAA, which is the Civil Aviation Authority, released its report into the UK鈥檚 16 biggest airports which handle over 150,000 passengers a year. In April it had warned them that the experience for disabled passengers was unacceptable. This report charts whether or not the airports did improve from the last time that we were speaking about this, and whether or not they hit the gold standard of providing assistance once a plane has landed to 98% of passengers within 20 minutes, whether they鈥檝e prearranged or not.

EMMA- And how did the airports do, Nikki?

NIKKI- London Luton was rated poor. That was the worst of all, having consistently missed arrival standards and shown very little progress. In many cases this resulted in missed connecting flights, which is awful. In a statement, an airport spokesperson told us, 鈥淲e鈥檙e sorry that we have fallen short on this occasion. We have been working with our service provider, Wilson James, to improve assistance times, the one area in which we missed the CAA target鈥�.

EMMA- And what about some of the other airports like London Heathrow?

NIKKI- London Heathrow, which is the second busiest airport in the world, was on the 鈥榥eeds improvement鈥� list. This is like the naught and nice list, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA- Yeah!

NIKKI- With the average time for assistance being 45 minutes. The CAA said, 鈥淭he very long delays were disappointing鈥�. Although it did say, 鈥淭he number of passengers requesting assistance at Heathrow had increased by up to 30% since 2019鈥�, which I think is something that a lot of the airports are saying, are feeding back.

EMMA- What about the airports at the top of the list?

NIKKI- Oh this is exciting, yeah. On the nice list, those rated as 鈥榲ery good鈥�, include Aberdeen, Belfast International, Edinburgh, Glasgow.

EMMA- Woo.

NIKKI- I know. There you go. And London City. It also included East Midlands, which the CAA was impressed with because it set up a messaging service so those needing assistance could stay in touch with the team while going off and using the airport facilities independently. Which I think is a phenomenal idea.

EMMA- I mean shock horror that you鈥檇 want to go and get something to eat.

NIKKI- Or buy a bit of perfume.

EMMA- Yeah. I don鈥檛 know if I told this story before. I probably did. But once when I was flying from Edinburgh, I鈥檇 had a long day, I was going to have a long evening, I just wanted a bit of quiet time to have something to eat by myself. But they would not leave me. They wouldn鈥檛 leave me. Someone had to stay with me, but they were only allowed to stay with me for 20 minutes while I went and got something. So I had to go quickly buy a burger, scoff it in front of her, so that she could bring me back to a seat to wait for the next person, even though there was about an hour until my flight was boarding.

NIKKI- Well this report is kind of like an annual check-up, Emma, so we will be keeping on top of this on Access All and we鈥檒l be following this during 2023.

MUSIC- Access All

NIKKI- With all this festive chat, we鈥檙e very aware, aren鈥檛 we Em, that this festive period can be an incredibly tough time for so many of you. I always go on about the pressure, the pressure, pressure, pressure, that a lot of people must feel at this time, whether it鈥檚 financial, the pressure to go out and have fun all the time, or to be with family, and if you haven鈥檛 got those things in your life how difficult that might be. This year seems to come with added pressures because it鈥檚 the first, I hate the word normal, but you know it鈥檚 the sort of Christmas as we know it since the pandemic, and of course we鈥檝e got the cost of living crisis which is having a huge impact on so many. But Ems, you鈥檝e got some stats around this time of year, haven鈥檛 you? Tell me about them.

EMMA- I do. A survey from YouGov a couple of years鈥� ago said that a quarter of people said that Christmas makes their mental health worse. While the Mental Health Foundation found that 54% of people worry about the mental health of somebody they know at Christmas. And brace yourself for this one, Nikki. According to YouGov, 51% of women have found Christmas to be stressful, compared to 35% of men. And worryingly, due to the cost of living crisis, mental health charity Mind鈥檚 Infoline has seen a 40% rise in calls relating to money compared to 2021.聽

NIKKI- To help us all get through the next few weeks let鈥檚 say as peacefully as possible, we thought we鈥檇 come up with a little mental elf toolkit. Do you like it? It鈥檚 not my cockney accent, we鈥檙e just saying elf instead of health.

EMMA- So elf health.

NIKKI- Thank you for clarifying, Emma. And we鈥檙e going to do that with the help of mental health writer, broadcaster and charity worker, Seaneen Molloy. She鈥檚 here.

EMMA- Hi, Seaneen.

SEANEEN- Hello. I am here, and I鈥檓 about the size of an elf, so-

NIKKI- Oh me too, Seaneen.

SEANEEN- It鈥檚 a busy time of year for me.

EMMA- But nobody, nobody puts Seaneen on a shelf.

NIKKI- Ha-ha-ha. Seaneen, I know that you鈥檝e lived with mental health difficulties for a long time. Do you mind me asking what your particular mental health difficulties are?

SEANEEN- I have bipolar disorder and anxiety. So, lots of fun.

NIKKI- You鈥檙e going to give us some practical advice on how to look after ourselves over the festive period, which I think is great. But first of all, can I talk about your own personal experience of Christmas. What is the hardest part of Christmas for you?

SEANEEN- It鈥檚 like you said, it鈥檚 just like the sheer pressure to have a good time. Especially the whole making memories thing, like the insta elf on the shelf stuff. There鈥檚 so many things that seem to have popped up in the past couple of years, I鈥檓 like, 鈥極h great, something else I should be doing which I鈥檓 not鈥�. So, you know, I suck as a person and as a parent.

NIKKI- No you do not.

SEANEEN- It makes you feel that way.

EMMA- There鈥檚 no elf on my shelf, Seaneen.

NIKKI- I didn鈥檛 know what elf on a shelf was until last year when I saw two elf legs coming out of a bush near where I lived. I was like, 鈥榃hat鈥檚 that?鈥�. It鈥檚 not quite on a shelf, but what is it?

SEANEEN- You鈥檙e being watched, Nikki, is it?

NIKKI- Yeah, yeah. But in all seriousness, it is exactly like you said, Seaneen, you should be doing all of this stuff, making the cupcakes, having the best time, making memories, doing the photos, having the shots with your friends, being with your family, dressing up your kids. It鈥檚 all very perfect.

SEANEEN- It鈥檚 dark. Everyone鈥檚 skint. It鈥檚 like the month when you really just want to bury yourself in your duvet, and everything is saying you must get up and do things, and be excited at all times, and be happy. It鈥檚 really tough. I think it鈥檚 a really tough time of year.

NIKKI- Yeah. Have you had a particularly hard festive season that you can remember?

SEANEEN- Yeah. When I was younger especially. I had a fairly severe eating disorder and Christmas was just the worst time of the year, because it revolves around food, and there was chocolate everywhere, there was always something to scoff. There was loads of social eating, and you鈥檇 see family you hadn鈥檛 seen in ages. Every year it would always be the same thing, I would either get, 鈥淕od, haven鈥檛 you gained loads of weight鈥�, or, 鈥淥oh, you鈥檝e lost weight, you鈥檙e looking well鈥�, and I don鈥檛 want to hear any of that.

NIKKI- No. I used to get, Seaneen, because I had terrible adult acne, so I always used to get at Christmastime, 鈥淥oh, it鈥檚 not getting anything better, is it?鈥�.

SEANEEN- People just need to not comment on people鈥檚 bodies generally. And it鈥檚 difficult if you struggle with alcohol as well. My dad was an alcoholic, a fairly bad one, and so it was always really difficult at Christmas because he always tried to stay sober. It was very, very tense, we were all just waiting for him to kind of crack and start drinking again. I think because there鈥檚 so much drink around at Christmas, and everyone wants to crack open the Baileys at 11. If you鈥檙e around people who have problems with drinking, or you have problems with drinking yourself, it鈥檚 really hard. Christmas was pretty tough growing up because of the eating disorder and my dad. It鈥檚 tough in different ways now, because my dad died from his alcohol-

NIKKI- Oh, I鈥檓 sorry.

SEANEEN- Thank you. But that makes Christmas hard because you鈥檝e lost at Christmas. And having children makes it nicer, but also all the pressure, all the money, all the weight of expectation and the worry of disappointment. That鈥檚 hard in a different way.

NIKKI- Those tough times that you talk about, what got you through them, Seaneen?

SEANEEN- I鈥檓 lucky, I have four siblings, so basically we all kind of leaned on each other. That can be a bit of a double-edged sword at Christmas, I think, you鈥檙e often brought back together with your family, and if you have really difficult relationships it just amplifies everything about them. And if you鈥檙e alone, then you feel even more alone. So getting through it, my siblings, we all kind of leaned on each other.

EMMA- Seaneen, what advice do you have for people who are struggling with their mental health during the holiday season?

SEANEEN- First of all, to acknowledge that this is a very difficult time, not just because it鈥檚 Christmas but because everything shuts down. So if you have regular appointments, they鈥檙e going to be paused. All those usual places you might go will be closed. The first thing, I just want to emphasise this so very strongly to anyone listening and who takes medication for any reason, but especially for your mental health, please once this has finished and you鈥檝e taken a minute to just listen to our words and absorb them and just think, 鈥榃ow, aren鈥檛 those ladies brilliant鈥�. Once you鈥檝e done that, ring your GP and sort out your repeat prescription. It鈥檚 really important. Do not leave yourself stranded in that period between Christmas and New Year where you don鈥檛 have your medication. It is super-super important to please do this before anything else.

NIKKI- That鈥檚 great advice, Seaneen. I hadn鈥檛 even thought about that.

SEANEEN- People don鈥檛. I forgot too one year and it was a disaster. The other advice I would give is protect your rest at all costs. If you need to rest, if you need to have timeout, take it, you need it. Tell people around you what you need, if you are around people.聽

There鈥檚 a lot of places to get support online. There are some really good online communities. Mind have a peer support community called Side by Side, which is really good. It鈥檚 very safe, very moderated, if you鈥檙e struggling with grief and bereavement, which is basically a lot of us, especially at this time of year. Sue Ryder has an online bereavement community which won鈥檛 make you feel weird or terrible for feeling weird and terrible for not being happy at Christmas. To be honest, if you鈥檙e feeling rubbish then someone else is feeling rubbish too and you鈥檙e not alone with it. And if you don鈥檛 really like online support, you can call the Samaritans and you can also text Shout.聽

NIKKI- Seaneen, have you seen the hashtag that Sarah Millican does as well on Twitter? It鈥檚 #joinin.

SEANEEN- Oh yeah, join in.聽

NIKKI- It鈥檚 really good, isn鈥檛 it?

SEANEEN- Yeah, it鈥檚 lovely. She runs that every Christmas now, doesn鈥檛 she?

NIKKI- Yeah.

SEANEEN- So it鈥檚 like a big kind of festive get-together of people on Twitter, yeah join in and then just chat to each other. There鈥檚 always community out there, there鈥檚 always people out there who are feeling the same way you are.聽

A lot of people living with mental health issues struggle with alcohol. I just say, be careful of the drink over Christmas. We do have to approach drinking differently to people who aren鈥檛 living with mental health problems, it鈥檚 a real flashpoint if you have issues with alcohol. So skip to the end of the bottle, just think about the fight that comes afterwards or how crap you鈥檙e going to feel the next morning.聽

And a crisis is an emergency and it鈥檚 still an emergency at Christmas, so if you can鈥檛 keep yourself safe you do need to go to A&E or call someone. Crisis teams are open at Christmas so ring them, pick up the phone if you can. Or if you can鈥檛, if anyone else can do it on your behalf, get them to do it. You鈥檙e not disturbing anyone, you鈥檙e not wrecking anyone鈥檚 Christmas by struggling.聽

I haven鈥檛 had a manic episode in a while, and that鈥檚 one of the reasons why I have to be so boundaried at Christmas, because it is a time which would exacerbate that kind of pattern of my illness. So for me having manic episodes basically is just being swept along by stuff, having that next drink, going to that next place, doing that next thing. And just the increase in activity sort of hets me up and then I start to get unwell. To protect myself from that I have to be really boring. And it鈥檚 actually really useful as a coping mechanism, and especially over Christmas, to just be like, 鈥楢ctually I need to go to bed鈥�. It does protect me. It protects them as well. Because you talk about how special Christmas is, but it鈥檚 every year, it鈥檚 not that special! It鈥檚 every year and it basically starts in November now. It鈥檚 the seven weeks of Christmas, not the 12 days of Christmas. [Laughter]

NIKKI- Seaneen, we鈥檝e obviously been talking about the hardest parts of Christmas, but is there a best bit for you too, something you look forward to?

SEANEEN- Yes, actually. Apart from the joy on my children鈥檚 faces and all that kind of stuff, I love medieval Christmas cookery programmes. They鈥檙e on 成人论坛.

NIKKI- I did not expect that.

SEANEEN- I love it so much. I like having time off. It is the time I do try to spend it with my family and I try not to work.

NIKKI- Oh Seaneen, you are brilliant to talk to.

EMMA- It鈥檚 a good reminder for me that I don鈥檛 have to do all the things. And just to say that in the show notes for this podcast, so in the bit of text that you find on the 成人论坛 Sounds app or on the 成人论坛 web pages, we will put a link to the 成人论坛 Action Line, which has lot and lots of details for organisations which support people who are struggling with their mental health.聽

NIKKI- Brilliant. Thank you so much, Seaneen.

SEANEEN- Happy Christmas.

MUSIC- Access All

NIKKI- Have you ever heard of the silent twins? June and Jennifer Gibbons were sisters who grew up in Wales but only communicated with each other. As teenagers in the 1980s, they were sent to Broadmoor Hospital after a spree of theft and arson. They鈥檙e the subject of a new film, The Silent Twins, which stars Letitia Wright from Marvel鈥檚 Black Panther series.

MALE- We will move the girls into special education. We will get them to talk yet.

MALE- Guilty or not guilty?

FEMALE- You need to take care.

FEMALE- Please say something.

MALE- How do you plead?

MALE- They shall be institutionalised indefinitely.

MUSIC- Gospel music in the background

FEMALE- If you were telling your story, how would it begin?

EMMA- Hollywood has now come calling. But the first person to tell their story was Marjorie Wallace CBE in the 1986 best selling book, The Silent Twins. Marjorie herself is living a remarkable life. She worked with David Frost on tele in the 60s. Was a big part of the quest for justice for thalidomide survivors in the 1970s. And wrote about mental health in The Times in the 80s, and that鈥檚 how she got to know Jennifer and June. Her mental health work led her to found mental health charity SANE, which is still going strong, and Marjorie remains CEO. And she is here with us.

NIKKI- Let鈥檚 start off with this incredible story. For the people that don鈥檛 know, can you tell us who June and Jennifer were and why did they end up in Broadmoor?

MARJORIE- I was an investigative journalist for The Sunday Times, and I was known for being able to do human stories about thalidomide and about many sort of injustices to people who were disabled and dispossessed. One day one of my colleagues, I was always envious of the war reporters, and this colleague was a war reporter said, 鈥淥h, I鈥檝e got a friend in Wales, an educational psychologist, and he says there are these two black girls, identical twins, who have never spoken to any adults, including their parents and teachers or any other person at school鈥�.聽

So with slightly heavy heart, because he went off to a warzone and I went off to Haverford West in the rain, I went down, and I didn鈥檛 know what I would find. No-one could get them to communicate. They left school having had almost no education that anyone knew about. They then put themselves in their bunk room and they actually educated themselves. They went to the post office, by mail order they got books of Bront毛s, Austen, all the famous literature. They got themselves on creative writing courses. They bought typewriters. They were educating themselves.聽

Then they went off the rails a bit, they felt lonely, they were totally isolated, and they saw these American boys and the girls became obsessed by these boys. The boys sadly had a pretty bad history, introduced them to glue sniffing, vodka and arson. Then the girls went one day and the boys had left. They鈥檇 left. They鈥檇 not told them they were leaving, they鈥檇 gone back to America, and they were absolutely desolate. And they blamed each other. Because they fought a lot together, they both loved and hated each other.

NIKKI- Complex.

MARJORIE- Intensely. They went on a five week spree of vandalism. Frankly, pretty minor, like stole a rubber, half a Polo mint pack from schools. But they did commit three acts of arson. They did check, and I checked only last weekend with the surviving twin, they checked the buildings were empty, but nevertheless it was arson. It was a cry for help, they were desperate.聽

They were then taken to the prison, they went on remand there. The only place in our country that would take the two girls together, because when separated they simply withered away, was Broadmoor, which took women then. Broadmoor, a special hospital used for people like the Krays, the Sutcliffes. And that鈥檚 where they were for 11 years.

NIKKI- And they were two black women. Young women. They grew up in Wales in a majoritively white town. That鈥檚 right, isn鈥檛 it? Was it the bullying that they encountered that kind of led to what happened to them and them going sort of non-verbal except for with each other?

MARJORIE- When I talked to the twins, absolutely not. It seems they鈥檇 taken this pact of silence and that they were drawing each other into it. Mainly I think it was Jennifer, she was holding her sister June in this pact of silence. And from then they discovered it was quite a power base against the world. It got to the point that if one of them ever tried to speak, the other would gag them. I鈥檒l just tell you, when I first met them I went down with the father to the prison, and the two girls came in, they looked like coffins and they鈥檙e sort of literally lying on the shoulders of the warders. They sit down. They do have a cup of tea, but they move in perfect synchrony. They鈥檝e obviously practiced mirror image perfect synchrony. Eyes downcast. They don鈥檛 speak at all.聽

Suddenly 鈥� and this is the crux of the story 鈥� I鈥檇 been given by their father all these bin liners filled with writings that they鈥檇 been trying to do, and even a book they had Vanity publish using their doll money. I had been piecing them together. So I said to June, I said to both of them but June was the one who looked up, I said, 鈥淚鈥檝e read your stuff. I鈥檝e read your writings鈥�, and suddenly she flickered into a smile and she said, 鈥淒i-di-di-did you like them?鈥�, and I said, 鈥淵es, I think you鈥檙e very creative鈥�.聽

And then the next visit she smuggled over to me a wonderful diary, and I鈥檒l show you this, a dense tapestry of words perfectly formed but like four scenes to one line on a prison notebook. Jennifer also gave me her diary, smuggled them over. It was quite extraordinary, I was completely stunned. In their writing there was these everyday minutia they described, with a lot of with and perception, but a lot about each other. It was a sort of battlefield, a psychological battlefield, and they were using words as their artillery. But they always misinterpreted each other, although they thought they were absolutely identical. The extraordinary love that they had for each other, and in fact for their family and for other people, that they couldn鈥檛 express.聽

They couldn鈥檛 free each other to speak, but they chose me 鈥� and I read this in their diaries 鈥� as someone who began to understand them. So together we started to talk about writing a book.

NIKKI- The story took a bit of a dark turn really, didn鈥檛 it? Can you explain what happened?

MARJORIE- Well, before their 11 years in Broadmoor, they managed to keep their love/hate relationship under control. But then came the point where they were actually going to be discharged from Broadmoor into another secure unit that had newly been built in Wales. They didn鈥檛 know which day that was going to happen. I went down to visit them and had my little daughter with me. Broadmoor would never allow this now. They鈥檙e chatting away, and suddenly Jennifer, who was the second born 10 minutes later, turns to me and says, 鈥淢arjorie, Marjorie, I鈥檓 going to die鈥�, and I said, 鈥淏ut Jennifer you鈥檙e 29, you can鈥檛 die鈥�. And I saw June鈥檚 eyes nodding, yes Jennifer was going to die.聽

That was the pact that they鈥檇 made, that Jennifer had to die to truly liberate her twin, June, when they left Broadmoor. Just as they left Broadmoor and the gates closed, in the little mini van Jennifer laid her head on June鈥檚 shoulder and said, 鈥淲e鈥檙e free at last. Don鈥檛 forget the television set I gave you鈥�, and then by six o鈥檆lock she was in a coma. By eight o鈥檆lock I had a call from the psychiatrist that was looking after them saying, 鈥淛ennifer is dead鈥�. I wasn鈥檛 surprised. I knew.

NIKKI- You knew?

MARJORIE- I knew the strength of their pact, and the strength of their willpower. But the cause of death, nobody has ever known. June then left the clinic after a year. She had a little bit of halfway therapy, and she doesn鈥檛 think the therapy did anything for her. I did in myself. She now lives independently. She鈥檚 58. I see her quite often.

NIKKI- Do you?

MARJORIE- Yes. Yes, I went down only last Saturday.

NIKKI- Would they have been treated differently if this had happened now?

MARJORIE- I don鈥檛 think that they would have been put under this top security.

NIKKI- Might they have been sectioned?

MARJORIE- They would have been sectioned. But they were no more troubled and lost than many, many teenagers I鈥檝e known. They just needed help.

NIKKI- Did their story inspire you to set up SANE?

MARJORIE- Well it wasn鈥檛 actually just June and Jennifer, because care in the community was failing desperately. They were shutting down all these hospitals, saving a lot of money actually I have to say that way, but not providing these nice units in the community and the community treatment teams visiting every day. There were so many people came to me and there were so many tragedies, suicides should never have happened. I was going to funerals every month or so. I can鈥檛 tell you the distress that I found all over the country in families.聽

I was given by News International 鈥� I can鈥檛 believe it, Rupert Murdoch and everyone 鈥� six months to prove my case that this was a scandal of the then century, the 20th Century. I came back and I had written these articles. I was given no help, I had to do it alone. I went to back wards of hospitals. I slept on floors. I slept with the homeless. I came back with a series of articles, The Forgotten Illness, and they were printed in The Times. From that, I was allowed to set up half my time as an investigative journalist, half my time setting up a new organisation which I called SANE, s-a-n-e.聽

But of course I was running alongside with June and Jennifer. But I did ask June and Jennifer, I said, 鈥淎re you mentally ill?鈥�, and they said, 鈥淣o, no, no, we鈥檙e not mentally ill鈥�. I said, 鈥淲ell, are you entirely normal?鈥�, whereon they both burst in laughter and they said, 鈥淵ou might call us eccentric鈥�.

NIKKI- Eccentric. I love that. [Laughter]

EMMA- Have you seen the new film, Marjorie?

MARJORIE- Oh yes. I went to Cannes for the opening.

EMMA- Ooh, fancy.

MARJORIE- And had a standing ovation, which was really nice.

NIKKI- Oh, as you should.

MARJORIE- Usually the writer gets completely forgotten.

NIKKI- Have you any ambition that鈥檚 left unfulfilled?

MARJORIE- I still want to be the war reporter, but they鈥檙e not so keen on me going now.

NIKKI- Well more fool them!

MARJORIE- I still feel that I鈥檝e got a lot of battles to fight for myself and my troubled mind, for other people and their troubled minds. I鈥檓 facing growing old and I鈥檒l tell you, I鈥檓 not doing it gracefully.

NIKKI- Thank you so much, Marjorie. It鈥檚 worth mentioning, The Silent Twins, the movie, is in cinemas now so go and watch it.

MUSIC- Music聽

NIKKI- Before we go, we have had some lovely messages from you over the past couple of weeks.

MUSIC- [Christmas music in the background]

EMMA- We had one from Chloe Francois. Hello Chloe.

NIKKI- Ooh, Chloe Francois.

EMMA- Yeah, it鈥檚 a great name, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI- Love that.

EMMA- Chloe started listening to us in October, and our chat about disability allies got her thinking about what an ally really is for her. She says, 鈥淔or me an ally is somebody who listens and tries to empathise. An ally is someone who asks me how do you feel about this, before setting plans in stone鈥�. Good one. 鈥淎nd an ally basically is someone who sees me, the whole me鈥�. 鈥淭hank you so much for this podcast鈥�, Chloe says, 鈥淚鈥檓 so glad I found it鈥�.

NIKKI- Emma, I have a feeling you鈥檙e going to know the answer to this next question that we鈥檝e got in. Eva Rich has got in touch to say 鈥� hello Eva by the way 鈥� Eva says she found us at 4.30am 鈥� I like that 鈥� on 成人论坛 5 Live. Eva says, 鈥淎lthough totally blind, I am an avid fan of Strictly Come Dancing鈥�. Great taste. Eva says, 鈥淚鈥檓 desperate to know how to get audio description on the live programme. Keep up the good work and Happy Christmas. Keep up the good work鈥�.

EMMA- Oh, thanks for your nice words, Eva.

NIKKI- Now give her an answer.

EMMA- Yeah, okay. It鈥檚 not on the live show as it goes out, because audio description needs an extra track which can鈥檛 be put on a live programme. It鈥檚 so that not everybody can hear the audio description, because sometimes who see don鈥檛 like hearing the audio description. But there is an audio described version of each show, it comes out around the sort of Wednesday lunchtime time. It鈥檚 supposed to come out on Friday, but they always upload it early, so thank you very much iPlayer, and you go onto iPlayer and you can watch it there.

NIKKI- Love that. Remember, you can email us over the holidays with all your thoughts and stories. Our email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk Alternatively, why not open up WhatsApp and send us a text or voice note on our number, which is 0330 1239480. We鈥檒l be staying here throughout the festive season, and we鈥檝e got some extra special episodes up our sleeve just for you, so do stay tuned. And thanks for listening.

EMMA- Bye.

NIKKI- Bye.

[TRAILER]

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