成人论坛

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28th September 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 72

Presented by Nikki Fox

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听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was a big day for Foxy yesterday, everyone. I mean, Emma鈥檚 probably lucky she鈥檚 not here because I鈥檇 be chewing her ear off about this for hours. But I finally, at 43 years of age, got a standing frame. Now, I do appreciate that I鈥檝e actually been able to get one, but it has taken me a while. I鈥檝e had to save up quite a lot. As a lot of disabled people will know, they ain鈥檛 cheap. It arrived at the house yesterday. At the moment we鈥檙e trying to work out where to shove it, either in the conservatory or just by the dining table. It鈥檚 on wheels so when I鈥檓 in it Dave can sort of wheel me around and place me in front of the TV or something.

But visually I think a lot of physically disabled people might know what a standing frame looks like, so you transfer into the standing frame, it鈥檚 got its own seat so you鈥檙e in a seated position. You bring these knee pads around in front of your knees; that鈥檚 what stops you from stacking it 鈥� which quite frankly if I stood up without them I would stack it. Then you shove your ankles in. So, basically just imagine you are very, very, very straight in a standing position. Now, when I stand up and I walk 鈥� this is information that I鈥檓 sure no one actually needs to know 鈥� but when I stand up normally I stand up a bit like a duck, so my bum-bum sticks right out and my neck goes back, and that鈥檚 not a good position for you to stand in. So, this puts me in the right position, and it鈥檚 not a position I鈥檝e been in for a very long time. So, as you imagine it鈥檚 given me a really good stretch. And it feels a little painful but it鈥檚 a really nice pain.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Kate, the woman that鈥檚 been supplying these standing frames, she said we have had this big initiative to get office workers standing and not sitting at their desks, and we鈥檙e talking about non-disabled people that can stand and walk as much as they like. Why do we not do the same for disabled people? Why is all of this equipment so out of reach for so many people?

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Access All, the numero uno disability and mental health podcast on 成人论坛 Sounds. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox, and we鈥檝e got a slightly different one for you this week because my partner in disability related crime, my amiga, my right-hand talented blind bird, well she鈥檚 having a break for a week. So, it鈥檚 just, well it鈥檚 just me, me and you listeners. So, what have we got coming up this week? We鈥檝e got some strong language aimed at the government by a big disability organisation. And a disabled Syrian refugee who tells what it means to be more penguin, just like him.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As always you can subscribe to us on 成人论坛 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We鈥檙e on your smart speaker too; you can just ask the 成人论坛 for Access All and we shall just pop up.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what started as a government photo campaign this week has turned into a bit of a furious war of words. Now, the government鈥檚 Ask, Don鈥檛 Assume campaign involves digital photographs in London, the West Midlands and across social media. And it鈥檚 basically encouraging people not to assume anything about a disabled person, but to ask what they might need or want help with. But Disability Rights UK described it on Twitter as a ridiculous attempt to purple wash their murderous ableist policies. Phew! So, there is a lot going on and I need these two people in my life to go through this. We are joined today by campaigner and activist, Dr Amy Kavanagh. Hello Amy.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So lovely to have you in the studio. And our Dan White who we have on the show an awful lot, not with us in the studio today. But Dan is the policy and campaigns officer at Disability Rights UK. Hi Dan, how are you?

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very well. Thank you for having me on today, and it鈥檚 a pleasure to be on with Amy as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Dan this Tweet, what was it all about and what did you mean?

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Obviously I鈥檓 not part of the comms or the social media team, but obviously it was a fast-moving emotional response with obviously sadly inappropriate language. It was deleted obviously because the language was misjudged and it could and should have been worded better. But we have to understand that we all get emotional in this community from time to time. I mean, people working in disabled organisations get very, very emotional. The community gets very, very emotional. And obviously these things slip out in words like that occasionally from time to time, because you can sense the frustration from people when government enact policies or enact campaigns like this that disproportionately have a negative effect upon disabled people. And if we鈥檙e going to build relationships and have dialogues with government and other representatives like that we have to rein in our language.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Going back to the tweet, what did DRUK mean by murderous, just so people can understand?

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, obviously not involved in the disabled community have to take in respect what government policy over the last 13 years the domino effect of that policy has been: benefit stagnation; cutting services, etc. etc; energy companies being able to inflate fuel prices; and the level of support, cost of living payments not even coming anywhere near to that support. So, what we鈥檙e saying is the policy choices made by government are having a domino effect upon disabled people, whereby disabled people have been switching off their heating; disabled people have not been eating; disabled people have not been going to get medication because either prescription charges are too high, fuel is too high; food is too expensive; heating is too expensive. Income isn鈥檛 enough to keep people alive. And we see this over the winter months, the excess deaths. In a roundabout way that鈥檚 what the tweet was trying to say: it鈥檚 the domino effect of policies. But unfortunately it was worded in a way that was rushed and emotive, as I said.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are DRUK going to have to apologise? Are you going to apologise?

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know. That will be for the comms team and the higher management for that. Let鈥檚 look at some positives with this campaign. I know it鈥檚 hard to do it. But firstly it involves disabled people, which is great for a start because usually it鈥檚 we鈥檙e not involved in any of this at all. It鈥檚 usually put out without our consent. The message is seemly a positive one. And anything that can counteract rising disability hate crime, because the figures are rising, has obviously got to be seen as a positive. But unfortunately the campaign is basically saying ask disabled people invasive questions. Disabled people are tired of, however well-intentioned able-bodied people are 鈥� and I always find it strange using that phrase anyway 鈥� but how well-intentioned they are they鈥檙e tired of people coming up and saying, 鈥楬ello, what鈥檚 wrong with you?鈥� It really knocks disabled people to do that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 In fairness to the government when you watch the video they鈥檙e not actually saying go up to a disabled person and ask them everything about their condition, their illness or whatever. It鈥檚 a different ask, isn鈥檛 it? But Amy you made the point, didn鈥檛 you, it was more the shortening of the ask, don鈥檛 assume the hashtag, wasn鈥檛 it?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think the problem with this campaign is that yes, disabled people were involved in it, the minister was at length to tell us that 500 disabled people had been consulted about it. Although I personally would like to see the details of that research. But the challenge is that the campaign is a bit fluffy. When you do go to the website and you look at the content it鈥檚 just disabled people鈥檚 experiences living out their trauma, and then no real guidance or advice or information about how to offer proactive, positive support. And the hashtag Ask, Don鈥檛 Assume, and then the content around it, the marketing, the tone is really confusing and has certainly given the impression to a lot of people online that the purpose of the campaign is to go and ask intrusive questions. Because there isn鈥檛 that substance behind it to actually equip non-disabled people with information, with resources, with that education, with that awareness 鈥� and it鈥檚 a shame that this needs to exist 鈥� about how to, as the minister said, treat disabled people with respect and dignity.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got the posters here: two women and a fella, they鈥檙e wearing t-shirts saying things like, Can鈥檛 Touch This. One鈥檚 saying One of a Kind. And the guy that鈥檚 in the wheelchair he鈥檚 got a t-shirt on saying, Don鈥檛 Push It. We know where they鈥檙e coming from, don鈥檛 push my wheelchair, ask me. For you Dan, is it just a very confused, mix message? Is that the big problem for you?

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think the bigger issue for us though is why are they doing this campaign when the things that they should be campaigning for and addressing are the poverty issues within the disabled community? My policy and campaign work covers the disability and climate change, but also very heavily disability and the cost of living crisis. The cost of living crisis is decimating the community. Disabled adults, children and carers cannot afford medication, they can鈥檛 afford fuel, they can鈥檛 afford food. These are the things that really the government should be campaigning about. We just had the UN report in Geneva where many disabled people went across there, many DPOs went across there to give evidence about the UK government and disabled people. Not one government representative went. And off the back of this we suddenly have this campaign coming up. It鈥檚 almost as if the government鈥檚 saying to the United Nations and the world okay, look we are really on this, we鈥檙e all really great friends really. But they should be really addressing the issues, the real issues. Disabled people are suffering daily because of this. This campaign, and Amy鈥檚 absolutely right, it almost seems like a fluffy PR covering up stuff and issues which they have enacted over the last 13 years.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For me the real kicker is the tagline. Do you want to read out the tagline?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, disability together we can do better.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Together we can do better. That鈥檚 what really irks me about this is frankly the audacity of this government to turn around to disabled people and say, as Dan has pointed out, we鈥檙e not going to fix structural inequality, we鈥檙e still going to potentially close ticket offices, we鈥檙e still cutting care packages, but what will actually fix this is if you disabled people do better by becoming educators for the public; and instead of us making it easier to get on a train or safer to go out at night or make you experience less discrimination when you鈥檙e trying to access care, education, work, instead what you disabled people need to do is answer questions and explain to society why you should be treated fairly.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, we really wanted to get the minister for disabled people, Tom Pursglove in today to talk about this. It鈥檚 the Conservative Party Conference this weekend and so we were told he wasn鈥檛 available to attend today鈥檚 recording. And his team said it wouldn鈥檛 be appropriate for anyone else to comment. So, they鈥檝e sent this statement about the Ask, Don鈥檛 Assume campaign. A government equality hub spokesperson told us:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥楾his pilot campaign will raise awareness of assumptions faced by disabled people, and offer guidance to help build a more inclusive society. Ask, Don鈥檛 Assume was developed in partnership with and informed by disabled people and their representative organisations from across the country. This campaign is just one of many commitments from our National Disability Strategy, and also sits alongside our complementary Disability Action Plan, which is currently being consulted on.鈥�

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just putting it out there, I mean is this a case that the government can鈥檛 do right, do you know what I mean?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For me what is frustrating about that government statement is that it says that there鈥檚 guidance. There is no guidance. That website links you to two resources.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, that鈥檚 your main point, isn鈥檛 it?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. It links you to two resources: one is about setting up your own business, and the other is about being nice to each other on public transport. And for me as a campaigner who鈥檚 spent the last five years with my own campaign, Just Ask, Don鈥檛 Grab, constantly talking about these very issues and putting resources out there, you can search that hashtag online, there are thousands of stories of these kinds of behaviours and incidents, both good and bad. People genuinely getting it right, being helpful, not making assumptions. And the fact that there鈥檚 no resources, there鈥檚 no guidance. Because let鈥檚 face it, as frustrating as it is, some people don鈥檛 know what to do when they encounter a disabled person. It boggles the mind but it does happen.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] yeah.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And do you know what, I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 harm in gently holding some hands and saying, look I know the mere sight of a blind person approaching stairs panics the bejesus out of you, but this is how you could potentially handle it. I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 a problem with that. I do think there鈥檚 a problem with putting all the responsibility and labour of doing that on disabled people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But this is my point though, Amy and Dan, okay, this is my issue with it, this is what I struggle to get my bonce around: is the government, whether you are into this campaign or not 鈥� the government are now calling it a pilot campaign by the way 鈥� so pilot campaigns aside, according to government they worked with other disabled people, they worked with other organisations. DRUK is actually named, isn鈥檛 it Dan, as one of the organisations they worked with? There are disabled people in the video.

DAN-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 From a DRUK perspective we do work with government. Obviously we have to work with government. We have to be politically impartial. We can speak to it now, but I don鈥檛 recall us having any influence in this particular campaign. It鈥檚 almost as if they鈥檝e plucked our name out as someone they鈥檝e worked with on everything else, and just assumed that we鈥檇 give backing for this, if you see what I mean. Where at the end of the day we can鈥檛 see any prime importance to this campaign that betters any of the other issues that we鈥檙e trying to change.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you guys so much for coming in. a fascinating topic this one.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am so excited now because I鈥檓 joined by Mik Scarlett, the legend that is Mik Scarlett.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughing] the leg end.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The leg end. Always looking so wonderfully punk, and I love it.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I keep trying to grow up, I keep trying to mature.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 do it.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it doesn鈥檛 work.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Mik you were across the story that we did last week, weren鈥檛 you, about the proposed care policy in Bristol? And it鈥檚 the suggestion that disabled people may have to live in a kind of care residence or home if the council thinks that living in someone鈥檚 own home supported by care workers is more expensive.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, I was part of the campaign to save the independent living fund. I don鈥檛 benefit from it but I knew so many people who did, and it changed their lives. And part of what we were campaigning about was if you take away a centrally funded pot of money that allows people to provide their own care, so they book their care, they book the support workers that they like, it鈥檚 all them leading it, and hand it over to local councils this is what we were worried about. We were terrified that what would happen is eventually we would go back to what we鈥檇 spent decades fighting to undo where you get put into care, into big hospitals.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we鈥檝e had loads of messages and tweets about this story, Mik.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I bet.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Matthew Smith on Twitter, or X, whatever we鈥檙e calling it now, he said: 鈥榃here are all the care homes they plan to use? There aren鈥檛 lots of care homes ready to take in younger disabled people.鈥�

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I mean, loads of them are being sold off at the minute, so.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Somebody called Carl keeps messaging about this as well actually because he鈥檚 really passionate about it. And thank you Matthew very much for getting in touch. Sarah also tweeted us to say: 鈥榃e currently live in an extra care complex. I鈥檓 in my 40s; almost everyone else is over 80. We find it so hard that there is no one here my age. Luckily they let my husband live with me.鈥� And she said she waited seven years for her placement. Thank you for getting in touch Sarah. But that luckily they let my husband鈥�

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 When I started in TV I did a show for Channel 4 about disability and sex, and we met a young couple that were living in a care home but weren鈥檛 allowed to sleep together because the people that ran it were religious and they weren鈥檛 married. And this is all stuff that鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Still happens now.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. The idea that you鈥檙e in your 20s and you鈥檝e got a girlfriend and ooh, you can鈥檛 sleep together, because an external force is telling you what to do because that鈥檚 where you live. It鈥檚 just wrong. And to be honest it鈥檚 happening at every angle, from every direction, and I genuinely think that we鈥檙e about to see a new explosion of the disability rights movement, just like we had in the 鈥�80s and 鈥�90.s

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you feeding protests?

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Where people are going to go, look 鈥� I mean, without being funny there鈥檚 not that many prisons that can hold us! [Laughter]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 very true. Moving on鈥�

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Moving swiftly on.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I was gutted to have missed the show last week for many reasons, but also they were talking Strictly Come Dancing in audio description. Eva emailed us, she was very excited about this audio description malarkey, and she said: 鈥楢s a totally blind person who has always enjoyed the programme the audio description was definitely the icing and the cherry on the cake鈥�. She loved it. Thank you Eva, and thank you to everyone that gets in touch. We don鈥檛 always get to read them all but yeah, there was a little flavour of last week. We had so many, Mik, it was brilliant. This week, Mik, the 成人论坛 World Service has got a great programme called The Climate Question. Three guesses for what it鈥檚 about?

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hmm, could it be a question about the climate?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think so.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think so.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Correct. Give this man a job. It鈥檚 really well put together and always interesting. Now, this week the brilliant, talented, superstar Emma Tracey is presenting it. And you know she鈥檚 obsessed with disability; well this week she鈥檚 gone and made them all obsessed about it too. Disability and climate, here鈥檚 a sneak peek, Mik Scarlett:

[Clip]

KEMI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Any activity in daily living I need some kind of assistance with, so my care takers were not able to come help me because of the ice. I stayed in bed for that whole week. So, my brother and I kind of fortified my room to stay warm. There really weren鈥檛 accommodations that were better than staying in my own apartment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That happened to Kemi in one of the richest parts of one of the richest countries in the world. So, lack of provision for disabled people and understanding of what we need in these situations that can鈥檛 just be down to money. So, my question now is, if we know the current emergency plans aren鈥檛 working for disabled people and lives are at risk what鈥檚 being done?

[End of clip]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I鈥檓 so proud. But a lot of people have got in contact with me, Mik, over the years saying why are we disabled people not involved in this huge discussion that is our planet and what鈥檚 going to happen to it.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 beyond me. Even the little changes that we鈥檙e making in the UK, things like low traffic neighbourhoods and cycle lanes and bus bypasses and all this sort of stuff, is all not accessible to us. So, even the things we鈥檙e doing to save the planet are making lives harder. Let alone what happens when things go badly wrong. For years I鈥檝e been in a situation, like most wheelchair users, when it snows you kind of stay at home.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, this is so long ago that we didn鈥檛 even have ordering online and shopping delivery, so you kind of just had to hope that you didn鈥檛 run out of baked beans. But you know that鈥檚 coming, and in London it鈥檚 a few days. But in countries where when it snows it snows and it鈥檚 all winter, and all the floods and disasters that are going on, we鈥檙e not considered. I mean, I genuinely picked my flat because it was on the first floor, it has two lifts, one of them鈥檚 a fire lift, so I can get out in case of a fire.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Clever, yeah.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But also because if London ever floods, as the global warming predictions say it might, it ends at the bottom of Camden High Street, and I鈥檓 at the top on the hill.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You actively thought about all of these things?

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, because you know for a fact that when things go wrong we鈥檙e the bottom of the list, we always are. And the last thing you want to be in a flood is in a wheelchair, because all of us are under 5ft. I don鈥檛 have a snorkel so I can鈥檛 just wheel down the street and hope I get somewhere. It sounds silly but the idea that that鈥檚 something you think about is something I did. I think the thing is programmes like this are vital: a disabled person explaining why it matters to us and why we are able to help. We鈥檙e not useless eaters that are just sitting there unable to鈥� We鈥檝e got loads of ideas. And, as with everything, if you design universally with inclusion at its heart you will build a better tomorrow.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And a greener society can also be much more accessible and much more inclusive. At the moment we鈥檙e not seeing that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 very sad to say, Mik Scarlett, that we鈥檙e going to have to leave it there. Because you were so good we鈥檝e actually had to drop a few items.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, what you mean is that I talk so much that the essential eight was the essential three?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. but the points that you were making were just mwah, they were chef鈥檚 kiss, Mik Scarlett, mwah. You鈥檒l have to come in again.

MIK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 it. I will.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I am very excited to speak to Hamzeh Al Hussien, who is touring the UK with his first ever theatre production, it鈥檚 called Penguin. Now, Hamzeh and his brother Waseem moved to the UK in 2018 after fleeing from the war in Syria. Hamzeh and his brother were born with phocomelia, the rare congenital disorder which leads to shortening of the limbs. Hamzeh鈥檚 play takes us all on a personal tour of the places he鈥檚 been in his life, from his village in the Syrian mountains, the Za鈥檃tari refugee camp in Jordan, where he lived for six years 鈥� where I鈥檝e been as well 鈥� and then to Gateshead in the northeast of England where he now lives with his brother. The show is full of music and dancing, and even some marbles. I love marbles! Anyway, it鈥檚 not about me. It鈥檚 all about the joy of being who you are, that鈥檚 what your play is about. And with Hamzeh today is Amy Golding, the director of Penguin, and is also the creative director and joint CEO of Curious Monkey, the theatre company putting on the play. Hello Hamzeh and hello Amy, how are you both?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, I鈥檓 good thank you. Really nice to be here.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 lovely to have you both on. Are you all right, Hamzeh?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes, I鈥檓 good thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, first to say, Hamzeh, congratulations on the show. I mean, wow, what an achievement. Do you want to start by telling me what your show is all about?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes. The whole show is all about me, about my life story, about the village where I used to live, our house it鈥檚 like close to the mountains.

[Clip]

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 This is the sun. the sun is here. Can you see the mountain? The lemon trees, the fig trees, the wheat. The wheat fields are there. [Arabic spoken]

[End of Clip]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, this was your home in Syria?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes, this is my home and the village called [Bariqiyah].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I bet you miss it?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 I miss it a lot, yeah. And then after that the Za鈥檃tari camp in Jordan.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, which we were saying earlier I鈥檝e been to that camp as well. And it is difficult getting around if you struggle to get around, isn鈥檛 it? It鈥檚 very bumpy.

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 It was so difficult to be in it, especially because of the way my feet are, because I walk like on the left side. There was no transport as well. It was just so complicated.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you document this in the play, don鈥檛 you? And then you talk about your experiences of moving to the UK. It鈥檚 a very personal story for you, as you were saying. And I wondered why is it you called it Penguin?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Well, the reason why I called it Penguin there鈥檚 a big story behind it. The first thing when I was a child, like when I was five, six years old people used to call me penguin, as like bullying me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Was it because of the way you walked, Hamzeh, is that why?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes, my feet and the way I walked people used to call me penguin, 鈥極h look we have a penguin here in the school, we have a penguin鈥�. Every time I hear this word I just feel like it鈥檚 kind of like sadness. I spent most of my time crying, like why do people talk to me like this.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh Hamzeh, it鈥檚 so difficult.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The reason that we chose the title in the end was because the word started for Hamzeh as an insult, but then now Hamzeh has kind of reclaimed that word and it鈥檚 become a real positive.

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes. For example now if anyone calls me penguin, okay I鈥檓 proud I鈥檓 a penguin because they are really smart, they are cool, they look after each other. They can鈥檛 fly, that鈥檚 true, but they can swim, and penguins they can dance and they are really smart. Yes! [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hamzeh, when I was younger I used to get described as a duck. I used to waddle. That鈥檚 what people called me. And I was like, yeah I鈥檝e got a big bum, and I waddle a bit like a duck, I鈥檓 going to try and turn it into a compliment, which is all you can do really, can鈥檛 you, to sort of get on. So, this is what your play is about then, it鈥檚 about your life and reclaiming this. I鈥檓 wondering what your experiences have been like since you moved to the UK. Do you find it any different?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Actually to be honest when I came I thought it鈥檚 going to be really like such different things, especially with the teenagers, I thought they would be educated about disabilities and this kind of stuff. But to be honest every single day really they look at me in a different way, sometimes filming me secretly. I feel like I鈥檓 not a human, you know what I mean. But actually for me when they keep filming me I just pretend I鈥檓 a celebrity.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, Hamzeh, yes, strike a pose.

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 sorry to hear that because I would have liked to have thought, obviously you鈥檙e always going to get one or two, but I would have liked to have thought that this wouldn鈥檛 be a regular thing for you in the UK. How did attitudes differ to living in Syria, was it different?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Well, actually it was different, yeah, because when I used to live in Syria I used to hear lots of bullying from the children, from the adults. I feel like in Syria I used to hear it from everyone.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You were obviously in Jordan, like a lot of other Syrians, because you were fleeing from the war. I met so many Syrians who had had to flee. Often they had injuries, disabilities because of the war. Obviously not wanting you to go through something which I imagine is hugely traumatic for you, but what was that experience like? You had to go to Jordan I guess?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yes, to be honest, because the reason when we left the village at the end of 2012, we spent the first few months there like we were putting our lives at risk. Especially when we say goodnight we just keep saying are we going to wake up or not, because of the bombs. And then after that it became really worse and then we had to leave the village.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What you鈥檝e already experienced in your life is more than most. And the fact that you鈥檙e putting this into a play it just sounds quite wonderful. Last question I really want to ask you is what do you want to achieve? What do you hope your show will achieve?

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 I want people to get to know me well. I want people to get wiser, more educated about people who get disabilities. I want people to know that, you know what I mean, the disability is not like in the body.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. We were talking a bit earlier about audiences coming to see it and to go away, I think like the response that we鈥檝e had so far is that people feel so moved and so uplifted. Because I think the thing that Hamzeh carries through all of this is his incredible positive attitude, and his swagger as well. There鈥檚 kind of real swagger to it, and there鈥檚 lots of cheekiness and funny prank stories and all of this. And I think the journey that people go on when they鈥檙e watching it you can see everybody one minute they鈥檙e moved and they鈥檙e in tears, and the next minute they鈥檙e belly laughing, and the next minute they鈥檙e dancing with Hamzeh and celebrating him and his body and the way that it moves. It鈥檚 a real celebration of uniqueness and dance and music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And owning who you are.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And being proud of it.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But yeah, your tagline I think sums it up. His tagline for the show that you came up with: be proud, be who you are, be more penguin.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love that!

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Lots of people after the show they just say hashtag be more penguin.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it, yeah. this is the hashtag, yeah, come on, let鈥檚 get on this. Thank you Amy and thank you so, so much Hamzeh. It was just such a treat speaking to you. And good luck with the rest of the tour. It really has really intrigued me. I鈥檓 fascinated by the whole idea of it. I鈥檇 love to go and see it. And it鈥檚 a great message for us to end the show on really: be proud, be who you are, be more penguin 鈥� or in my case duck maybe. I don鈥檛 know. I love it.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, hopefully we鈥檒l see you there and hopefully we鈥檒l see lots of the listeners there.

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Yeah.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e in London this weekend and then we鈥檙e off round to Leeds and Sheffield and Manchester and Washington.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks so much for coming on guys.

HAMZEH-听听听听听听 Thanks a lot, goodbye.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks so much for having us. It was great to talk.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was a great show. I hope you enjoyed the programme. Obviously not the same without Emma Tracey, but she鈥檚 going to be back again next week, as will I. But in the meantime please tell your friends about us and ask them to subscribe to Access All on 成人论坛 Sounds, and then we鈥檒l just pop up every week. How exciting. And you can also in the meantime find us on X, we鈥檙e @成人论坛AccessAll. You can tell us stuff. Chuck us a gag. Tell us about your day. Anything you want us to look into. We can鈥檛 always read your comments out but we will always read them, and we love hearing from you so please do get in touch. But until then goodbye everyone, see you next week.

[Trailer for The Climate Question]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Emma Tracey here, and I wasn鈥檛 on this week鈥檚 Access All. And that鈥檚 because I was presenting an episode of The Climate Question for the 成人论坛鈥檚 World Service. And it鈥檚 about how disabled people aren鈥檛 being included in government plans around dealing with natural disasters. And we鈥檝e spoken to some amazing people with some incredible and shocking accounts of being basically left out and left to their own devices during serious weather events all over the world. It鈥檚 been fascinating and I really, really hope you enjoy it. It will be on the Access All feed on the 1st October so stay tuned for that. And I鈥檒l be back on Access All next week as normal.