成人论坛

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12th October 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 74

Presented by Nikki Fox

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This weekend I had something happen to me for the very first time. [Sighs] listeners, I experienced what you guys call cramp. I鈥檝e always heard you non-disabled folk talk about this thing and I鈥檓 like, do I not get cramp because I鈥檓 not athletic and I鈥檓 not going for nine-mile runs? Do disabled people not get cramp? What is cramp? I want to know what cramp feels like. Well, I felt it. it felt a bit like pins and needles but so much worse. And you know how I got cramp? From standing in that standing frame. Now, I know I have been boring you all about this standing frame I got; in fact so much so that Frances Ryan, the brilliant journalist from The Guardian, text me the other day and went, 鈥榃ell, you are an athlete now鈥�. I鈥檓 like, yes I am. I am loving it.

But I overdid it slightly. The lady that fitted it for me perfectly, she said 20 minutes at a time, that鈥檚 it. What did Foxy do? She got so overexcited she stood in it for two and a half hours. My boyfriend kept coming up to me saying, 鈥淒o you not want to get out now?鈥� I鈥檓 like, 鈥淣o, I love it!鈥� I watched loads of films. I watched Married At First Sight UK. I stretched out. My shoulders feel great. It was need to eat that got me out of it. So, I pressed my little button, went down, then immediately my leg started feeling this sensation that I鈥檝e never felt before. And I looked at Dave and I went, 鈥淒ave, I think I鈥檝e got cramp. And it鈥檚 really horrible鈥�. So, yeah, that鈥檚 my weekend.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello everyone. Thank you so much for listening. This is Access All, the 成人论坛鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox, the 成人论坛鈥檚 disability news correspondent, and today I鈥檓 flying solo. My partner in crime is on holiday again. Emma Tracey, I miss you, come back. I am very excited though because later on in the podcast we are going to be hearing from Jay. Now, Jay is one of the contestants on the latest series of MAFSUK, that鈥檚 Married At First Sight, which is quickly becoming my favourite thing to watch on telly at the moment. I鈥檓 losing hours of my life to MAFSUK. It was for the podcast, folks; I was researching before that interview, and now I鈥檓 obsessed. And it鈥檚 on every single night. If you haven鈥檛 seen the programme it鈥檚 all about singles looking for love who commit to marrying a stranger 鈥� I mean they don鈥檛 actually get married, married, but they do some commitment service. Now, Emma Tracey will be here for that because we prerecorded it.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But first up we鈥檝e got an interview with someone who is no stranger to the podcast. It鈥檚 the disability minister Tom Pursglove. Well, we are joined now by Tom Pursglove, minister for disabled people work and health.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Health and work.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Health and work, I said it the wrong way round.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 worry.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for joining us today, Tom. First question I want to ask you very quickly, are you a MAFSUK fan?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A MAFSUK fan? Tell me more.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Married At First Sight.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e never seen Married At First Sight I have to say. Am I missing out?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 If you get involved you鈥檒l lose your life.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you are a minister, you鈥檙e very busy, I don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 enough time in the world.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And the difficulty for me at the minute is that there鈥檚 a cricket world cup going, and as a mega cricket fan鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, cricket schmicket!

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�the little bit of time I鈥檝e got spare I try and get the cricket in.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, Married At First Sight.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Maybe this is the next thing to watch.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 a contestant in there call Jay, and we鈥檝e got her on the show today. And she鈥檚 got a limb difference. And she鈥檚 fallen in love with Luke and it鈥檚 just a dreamy relationship.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, very exciting.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 If they split up that鈥檚 me done for love. It鈥檚 very good though.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 not sure I could cope with any of that heartbreak, so actually I think I鈥檒l stick to the cricket for now.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, thank you so much for coming in, Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Pleasure.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because we met last December, wasn鈥檛 it. And you were very new to the job at the time, but you were telling us that you had lots of plans and you wanted to get the job done really, get a lot of jobs done. And I just thought perfect chance now for you to tell me what it is that you鈥檙e proud of so far, what you鈥檙e most proud of so far.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, I think it鈥檚 been a really good year actually in terms of making progress on this really important agenda. And it鈥檚 really terrific to be here talking to you about the work that we鈥檙e doing and to sort of check-in on progress. Because it was very early on in the role that I came and saw you and we did a lengthy interview then. But since then obviously we鈥檝e announced our flagship work and health reforms around the disability benefit system; getting rid of that structural barrier to work, which I think is so important. The amount of conversations I鈥檝e had in my time in this role where people say to me, I鈥檓 a disabled person, I鈥檇 like to try work and would do that with the right support. But that sort of fear factor, that jeopardy in the benefit system of trying a particular role, having identified something that someone would like to do, gets closer to that and then steps back from it because there鈥檚 just that fear factor of it not working out, losing their benefit entitlement and then having to reapply and be reassessed in order to reestablish that support. So, we鈥檙e going to get rid of that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And what is that you鈥檙e getting rid of practically?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, it鈥檚 the way that the benefit system has been structured as a result of decades and decades of welfare reform: there鈥檚 this barrier to work. And the only way we can deal with that properly is to change the law. So, we need to put primary legislation in place, which we鈥檝e committed to doing in the next parliament. But we鈥檙e not wasting any time; there鈥檚 various initiatives we鈥檙e taking forward as well to try and improve people鈥檚 journey through the system, trying to reduce that assessment burden on people, particularly where it isn鈥檛 appropriate or right, where someone鈥檚 disability or health condition is unlikely to improve. So, trying to reduce some of that anxiety and worry. And also just trying to get more decisions right first time.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then we鈥檝e also got things like the National Disability Strategy that we鈥檙e now able to get on and do. And we鈥檝e just finished a consultation on our proposed disability action plan, which is all about what we can get on and deliver over the course of the end of this year and into next year, recognising lots of different areas that people have consistently raised with us in the many conversations and engagements and visits that I and officials do. Because we really want to be proactive and get on the front foot and try and tackle some of those issues head on and improve people鈥檚 lives for the better.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Work is a big thing obviously for your role. And for a lot of people the ability to hold down a job does very much depend on the support that they have at home, and in work as well. And for a lot of disabled people that support is being reduced and they are struggling to keep a job or to get a job. Those two things I think, the support at home really will impact work for many people.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I agree. And I think it鈥檚 about looking at people鈥檚 needs really holistically. Of course as the minister for disabled people I chair the ministerial disability champions. So, in each Whitehall department we鈥檝e got a minister who鈥檇 designated to take the lead in terms of everything that we do when it comes to new policy, when it comes to new initiatives, when it comes to law changes. And we ought to be looking at that through the prism of disability at the outset. And one of the areas where that cooperation is most important is undoubtedly with health, and so we鈥檝e got the joint work and health unit. And we recognise as a government 鈥� I think it鈥檚 common sense this 鈥� but we strongly recognise that for so many people work is a determinant of better health outcomes. And of course where work isn鈥檛 appropriate there must always be that safety net, and any civilised society supports people in those circumstances. But we should focus on wellness wherever we can. And things like our talking therapies offer, we鈥檙e getting to the point where 100% of those services will have employment advice built into it. So, there鈥檚 that recognition about introducing employment related thinking and considerations into the right journey, within that trying to improve someone鈥檚 mental health state and the way that they鈥檙e feeling and their wellbeing. That sort of cooperation and that collaboration across government is really important, and that鈥檚 reflected on the consultation that we鈥檝e got ongoing at the moment around occupational health. There鈥檚 over 90% coverage in large employers. But when you get down to SMEs it鈥檚 much smaller, it鈥檚 17%, 18%, and we need to bridge that gap.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 SMEs?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Small and medium sized enterprises. So, just trying to make sure that more of them have occupational health coverage available.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, because a few weeks ago the government announced changes to the work capability assessment. So, just to get it right, you are thinking of scrapping that, that鈥檚 going to be scrapped isn鈥檛 it long term?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. It remains the absolute intention to get on and scrap the work capability assessment, again reducing that assessment burden on people and having the PIP assessment as being the gateway into the health and disability benefit systems.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But that鈥檚 not merging the work capability, it鈥檚 not merging anything that鈥檚 an out of work benefit with an extra costs benefit, which is what PIP, personal independent payments is?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, it鈥檚 not about bringing those two assessments together in the sense of moving the criteria of the WCA into the PIP assessment. Obviously we鈥檝e got to move forward really carefully to make sure that the PIP assessment is right in the circumstances of that reform, and making sure that it is thorough going and that it does what it needs to do. But I don鈥檛 envisage there being significant reform to the PIP assessment as part of that change.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, no means testing PIP?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I know that鈥檚 what a lot of people were worried about.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, there was a bit of speculation about that, wasn鈥檛 there, a while back?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But I can categorically say that the government has got no plans to means test PIP.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Perfect.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Which I hope provides some reassurance on that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Some reassurance, yeah, because people were kind of feeling that way and were very concerned about that.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 a really important benefit that supports people with a whole host of different costs that they incur as a result of their disability.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Going back to the WCA, work capability assessment, some of it was based on the idea of this kind of acceptance that working from home is a good thing. Starting with mental health, Mind, the charity, came out saying people must take time off if they鈥檙e unwell, regardless of where they work. So, there is some concern around working from home is good for everyone. What would you say to that?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 fair to say that all of us would recognise that the world of work has changed enormously since the start of 2020 with COVID and everything that went with COVID. That undoubtedly changed people鈥檚 working patterns and the way in which so many people carry out work from a day-to-day basis and a day-to-day perspective. So, what we think is that it鈥檚 right to have a look at whether the WCA criteria 鈥� which haven鈥檛 actually been reevaluated since 2011, there鈥檚 been no change to the criteria since then 鈥� ought to have a fresh look at whether flexible working and home working opportunities might open up work opportunities for people who wouldn鈥檛 otherwise be able to access them. This debate sometimes gets dragged off in the direction of getting away from the key principle that we鈥檙e looking at really carefully here, which is the difference between could home working or flexible working facilitate work opportunities for someone who, without that, wouldn鈥檛 be able to access any work opportunities at all.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But of course, to sort of go back to Mind鈥檚 point, if people are unwell it鈥檚 really important that they take the time and the space that they need to get well and to engage with the treatment that鈥檚 available through the health service and through occupational health, for example, within workplaces where that鈥檚 available, and other forms of support, to make sure that they get well and are able to be as productive as they would like to be, but also feel better in themselves.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Of course for some physically disabled people flexibility in the workplace might be right for them; not for everyone but might be perfect for some. But I have heard from disabled people going for jobs at actually quite big companies, some who are disability confident as well, who are not as flexible as they first advertise. They mention flexibility in the workplace, and then, you know, but you鈥檝e got to be in four days a week and there might be some travel. It doesn鈥檛 seem to be working for everyone.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I think this is actually a really interesting area that as part of the sort of occupational health consultation we鈥檙e keen to hear people鈥檚 experiences and their views, and obviously through the work capability assessment consultation as well. I also think there鈥檚 a bit of an opportunity as we review disability confident. It's been a massive vehicle for change and done so much good in terms of over 18,000 employers are now disability confident, and they amount to over 11 million jobs on payrolls. But there鈥檚 a question about where we go from here with disability confidence, because we can now get on and do that review because of the change in position around the national disability strategy and the court鈥檚 ruling that we can make progress on that now. So, we will have that disability confident review.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And meeting the employment goal, getting a million more disable people into work, we met that five years earlier. But that鈥檚 just a start. We鈥檝e got to carry on that progress.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But the thing is though, Tom, when we talk about work it is frustrating because the disability employment gap really hasn鈥檛 changed to anything that you could sort of sing about really. It鈥檚 at 29% now, it鈥檚 hovered around 30% for many years. People with learning disabilities they鈥檙e under 6% employment rate, that hasn鈥檛 changed. And then when you鈥檙e in my position hearing from disabled people who are trying to get jobs at big companies who are disability confident but aren鈥檛 being flexible and actually putting that barrier up. What would you say to companies like that?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we really want to concentrate on the gap, and we鈥檙e thinking about where we go from here in terms of a future employment target. And what I鈥檇 say to employees is look, this isn鈥檛 just morally the right thing to do to be employing disabled people, it makes absolute sense to do it. There are so many people who can offer so much to your workplaces, to think about problems in a different way, the dedication, the commitment, the desire to succeed; it鈥檚 mad not to be utilising on those many strengths and talents that are available. And that鈥檚 why we as a government think that we need to be doing even more to try and help enable those opportunities. And things like Access to Work Plus that we鈥檙e moving forward with are all about working with employers, working with disabled people to craft roles so that from the very outset they鈥檙e right for that person. And I want us to learn from the best employers, the people who are doing this brilliantly.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Access to Work is what you鈥檝e mentioned there and there are still delays and there is still bureaucracy with it. I know you were very keen to streamline that when we last spoke, weren鈥檛 you? You were keen to get stuck in.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. We are making some real progress. Back in June we went live with the online claims portal and what I鈥檓 hearing is is that鈥檚 really helping to smooth some of those claim journeys and getting those paid.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just explain that to us, this online鈥�?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Rather than having to send envelopes and paper through the post in order to be able to unlock your claim, you can now do that through the online claims portal. So, that鈥檚 been quite welcome, and it鈥檚 helping to speed up some of those wait times.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think I can probably say this and get away with it and not get sacked: I use Access to Work obviously because I need support in work, and nobody has told me about this online portal.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I will get some details to you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is the first I鈥檝e heard about it, Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, we will have a look at what more we can do to try and get the message out there about that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we鈥檝e also put considerable more manpower and womanpower onto the claims process to make sure that we鈥檙e trying to work through these wait times, getting the help and support to people. But also some common sense streamlinings that we鈥檝e introduced, so things like travel claims which is a really important part of the support that we provide and actually is a lifeline for a lot of people in terms of facilitating them being able to work, what we鈥檝e done with that is rather than people having to go round and getting three quotes, we鈥檙e now doing benchmarking against local authority taxi and private hire vehicle rates and getting those agreed with people so we can get them paid much more quickly. So, we鈥檙e trying to be quite innovative. And we鈥檝e got a working group as well at the moment. But we want to hear people鈥檚 experiences and their ideas, because it is a flagship scheme, it鈥檚 done a lot in terms of unlocking employment opportunities for people, and we want that to be sustainable for the future.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 fundamentally important for so many people. When you think about aspirations in general, when you think about the difference between disabled people getting on and non-disabled people getting on, there will never be equality between the two. And I鈥檓 talking about disabled people who need support, so someone who needs a PA and might get their funding through the local authority or the NHS or whatever. If a disabled person has 拢22,500 in savings they have to pay for their own care. Now, in part it depends how much you鈥檝e got. Is that fair because that then stops that person reaching massive, massive heights? I鈥檓 not being particularly eloquent. But they want to be the next big things, they want to have a lot of money in their account, they want to set themselves up for the future, they might not be able to work for as long as everyone else for whatever reason, so they want to earn their money. And actually it鈥檚 impossible to do that when every year you have to send three bank statements off to your local authority for them to scrutinise what鈥檚 in your pension, how much savings you鈥檝e got, have you got a house, what do you spend on gas and electric. You鈥檙e always going to be draining your account to pay for the care that you need to work.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 want anybody to be written off from opportunities. And actually everything we鈥檙e doing has that at its heart, that we don鈥檛 want there to be barriers, unnecessary barriers to people getting on and succeeding and achieving the things that they want to achieve. And that鈥檚 why things like the employment support that we鈥檙e putting in place, universal support, as I鈥檝e touched on, things like the work well partnerships that we鈥檙e introducing to try and drive greater wellness and to support people with health conditions to be able to retain their employment, that has got that sort of aspiration at its heart. And there are these cross-government conversations going on about what more we can do to try and overcome those barriers. And I think there are the sorts of issues that we can talk about, particularly as they think about where we go next with social care reform and making sure that those arrangements are fit for purpose, and that people are properly supported to meet some of those really challenging costs.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Obviously the disabled person is paying tax and insurance, the PAs are paying tax and insurance, so it鈥檚 all good. But then you get to that threshold, and often when you鈥檙e in that position you鈥檙e exempt from any grants and this, so you鈥檙e also spending more, you鈥檙e going through more equipment and whatever and you鈥檙e not getting grants for it. Do you think that鈥檚 fundamentally fair?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I would want to pick up on that specific point with colleagues in DHSC, because they have the lead on that. And one of the big advantages of my role is that having that cross-government focus does mean that you can go and have those conversations with colleagues elsewhere and then ask them to have a look in quite some detail about those policies and about whether they鈥檙e fitting neatly with the sort of overarching direction of travel that we are trying to go in. And there鈥檚 a lot of effort, a lot of energy going in behind this agenda. But I鈥檇 be really happy to pick that one up with colleagues elsewhere in government and ask what their take is on that and whether they think there鈥檚 anything more that we can do to make that a bit easier.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 also important for me to mention as well actually, it鈥檚 not just people in work but actually people who can鈥檛 work for whatever reason who are on certain benefits, some people also have to pay for part of their care as well.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you Tom Pursglove. I鈥檝e been told we鈥檙e chatting for too long. It鈥檚 been a chunky one this. Thank you so much.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been good. We鈥檝e covered a lot of ground.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We have. Thank you Tom.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We recorded the following interview last week when Emma was around. Enjoy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The other week, Nikki, I had a blether, as we would say in Scotland, on the show about Married At First Sight.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But you鈥檙e Irish, but never mind, carry on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it all gets very confusing [laughter]. But anyway we were chatting about the show because it鈥檚 back, bigger than ever, as they say. Load of episodes, 36. And it鈥檚 got a disabled contestant which, as you know brings me straight in there. I love a disabled contestant.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We can hear in the background, and yes, that contestant is Jay, and she鈥檚 on the line with us now. And I鈥檓 beyond excited. I can鈥檛 contain myself. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. It鈥檚 so lovely to meet you.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for having me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 going to be one of these moments when I get really excited, and I just come across as a bit strange, to be honest.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 so deep into the series now. And you and Luke, I just fell in love with you straightaway. Absolute favourites. And I鈥檝e said that if anything happens to you guys that鈥檚 it, I鈥檓 finished with love, I鈥檓 finished.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 With love? Not just with the show but with actual love all together?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, with love.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 All together with love.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Love is over. Love is done.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my gosh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I did say the same thing about Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, but.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And look what happened there, oh my gosh.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, look what happened.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 For listeners that haven鈥檛 seen Married At First Sight UK, this new series, tell them how it works.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Basically you go through to the experts. There are a lot of in-depth conversations that are involved and a lot of surveys that you have to take, loads of personality tests. And then basically what happens is you don鈥檛 meet each other, you don鈥檛 know anything about the other person at all, up until first sight. So, when I was walking down the aisle for instance I didn鈥檛 have a clue what I was going to, and he didn鈥檛 have a clue what he was going to turn round and see. So, it is very, very daunting.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Jay you in episode one were one of the first to get married. And we learnt a little bit about you straightaway:

[Clip]

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I was born without my left arm. I used to wear a prosthetic arm, and I used to take it off at school and put it in my backpack, and the hand used to just be sticking out because it was too big. It looked like a thing out of the Addams Family just sticking out the back of my bag.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And you were really fabulously open, weren鈥檛 you, from the start about your limb difference?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I always have been to be honest; it鈥檚 not something that has ever bothered me talking about that openly.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can tell. And the way you and your sis talk about it as well, and then the way you are with your mates and all of that, you鈥檙e totally chilled about it.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But what struck me was when I saw you I just saw this absolute stunner with red hair, banging figure, great tats 鈥� I know I sound a little bit like a pervy teenager.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Great tats. Do you mean tattoos?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tattoos, yeah. And obviously your arm you notice it, but then when you were talking, when it was in the context of finding a man or meeting Luke for the first time, you were really worried about it. And I was like Jay, you鈥檙e a stunner. What has happened in your life to make you like that concerned about how someone is going to react to you?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is purely just like people鈥檚 reactions. Obviously when somebody gets to know me it鈥檚 different. And the amount of like, even Luke has said after the first couple of days, he was like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 even notice it anymore, it鈥檚 just the norm鈥�. But it鈥檚 just initial reactions. I鈥檝e been in situations where I鈥檝e been talking to somebody, like dating scene kind of thing, and then as soon as they鈥檝e noticed it you can just see their face drop. Not all the time, but just like the odd occasion. So, yeah like I said, I stated that in my VT for my backstory, it鈥檚 not something for everyone:

[Clip]

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My arm has had an impact sometimes with dating. Some people get a bit cringed out by it. Obviously it鈥檚 not for everyone, is it? It鈥檚 something that you don鈥檛 see every day. But it鈥檚 hard because you think, why do you not want to know who I am?

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do you mean, it鈥檚 not something for everyone?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, but I know what you're saying there because I said to you, Em, I had this before. And I had a similar thing Jay, when I was growing up, I used to walk most of the time but really badly. So, I鈥檇 be like out with my mates, leaning on the bar having a drink, some dude would come and chat me up and I鈥檇 be like I鈥檓 going to have to walk back to the table now and they鈥檙e going to see me, and they had no idea that I was disabled. And you do notice that there are some fellas, like Luke, really couldn鈥檛 care less. Like in the VO or not to you straightaway but he said you were everything he asked for, like everything.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Do you know watching that back it really did make me smile, because half of the stuff you don鈥檛 know what the other person has said in your little VTs. And it is really nice to watch it back. He was happy, and it just put my mind at ease.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I loved how your sister was giving him the third degree as well, it was brilliant, on the wedding day, wasn鈥檛 she?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you fancy her though, yeah.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 A lot of people think that she was being really harsh with him, but it鈥檚 not that. My sister is very protective and that鈥檚 all it is, and she just wanted to know. Because obviously of my situations that I鈥檝e had in the past and different circumstances that I鈥檝e been in, she just wanted to make sure that he wasn鈥檛 just being polite just for the sake of being polite, and he actually did fancy me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what sorts of situations did you find yourself in in the past?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not all the time, it鈥檚 just like the odd time. Mainly when I was younger, when I was a teenager there wasn鈥檛 much awareness about it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The world was slightly different, wasn鈥檛 it, when you were growing up in the 鈥�90s?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, the world was slightly different, it was very narrow-minded, and basically I didn鈥檛 go on any dates or anything because nobody was interested.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I hear you, sister.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But do you think it might have been 鈥� because I often thought that when I started using a mobility scooter to get around I stopped dating, I was dating like a ninja before that but then I stopped dating when I started using the scooter 鈥� and I kind of thought oh, it鈥檚 the scooter and fellas can鈥檛 get their head around that. I was working quite a lot as well so it wasn鈥檛 just that. But I actually think in hindsight it was probably me, I probably just put a bit of a barrier up because it鈥檚 a way of protecting myself. Do you reckon it could have been partly that with you back in the day?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, definitely. I wouldn鈥檛 necessarily go and approach somebody because I don鈥檛 want to be rejected. It鈥檚 taken me a long time to build my confidence up. But what I can say with this experience I鈥檝e had a major confidence boost. Even though I thought I was confident before I鈥檓 so much more happy within myself and I love myself now fully. I鈥檝e learnt to look at it differently.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love that. One thing I was thinking as well, Jay, because obviously you鈥檝e got limb difference, and we鈥檙e a disability pod, and we said disabled contestant. That was probably a bit presumptuous on our part, because is that a word that you associate with yourself?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, I don鈥檛 look at myself, I am disabled, but I don鈥檛 look at myself as a disabled person, if that makes sense.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I am very independent. The way that my mum鈥檚 brought me up, my mum鈥檚 been my rock and she鈥檚 literally said, listen you can do everything as much as鈥�obviously you won鈥檛 be able to do certain things, which is inevitable, it鈥檚 going not happen, but as long as you try, give it a go. She鈥檚 always pushed me to get the best out of myself rather than just sitting there and wallowing about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing. Obviously you filmed it all ages ago so you鈥檙e watching it as it鈥檚 going out and other people are watching it as it鈥檚 going out. Have you had feedback? Have the viewers got in touch with you?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Do you know what, I鈥檝e had so much love and support, it鈥檚 unreal. It鈥檚 very overwhelming because I wasn鈥檛 expecting that at all, I wasn鈥檛 expecting that response.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What kind of support have you had, what kinds of messages?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just saying how inspirational I am and how confident I am, how it鈥檚 a massive thing. I鈥檝e had people sending me pictures of their children that are like me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Aw.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And just so happy to see somebody on a big dating show, they鈥檙e all saying that I鈥檓 smashing it. And I was like oh so nice.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e quite emotional about all of it, aren鈥檛 you? It has actually had a massive impact on you.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I am a little bit because I wasn鈥檛鈥� I am getting emotional. Oh good, ooh.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No, it鈥檚 lovely though.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 because I just wasn鈥檛 expecting it, do you know what I mean [voice breaks].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e kicked you off now.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Emma Tracey!

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 all right, don鈥檛 worry.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what, I love, when you see these kinds of programmes, I鈥檝e worked in TV on those kinds of shows 鈥� well not those kinds of shows, but that kind of TV before 鈥� and you do worry actually does it do the contestant any good. But to hear you having such a positive experience from that, because you were brave to go on it in the first place, even though if I were you Jay I鈥檇 just be like whatever, I鈥檓 a stunner. But I understand how you felt about yourself and I get it. So, to hear you鈥檝e had such a positive experience.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 One thing I was admiring, for someone who鈥檚 never been brave to do it, your tats on your arm. Was that a conscious decision to put them on the arm that is shorter than the other?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know it was, yeah. I was obsessed with tattoos for a time. This sleeve I鈥檝e had for years now. I鈥檝e not had any recent tattoos to be honest for quite a while now. But the idea of it was in my head if I put a sleeve on my stump, as I call it, people will be more intrigued rather than looking at it and thinking urgh. So, they鈥檇 say wow, look at all these tattoos, rather than looking at if to say oh, she鈥檚 got one arm. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was the initial thinking behind it. But I always wanted a sleeve anyway. And I鈥檓 obsessed with Disney so it is literally just covered in Disney stuff.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I didn鈥檛 know that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do they look like? What do they look like?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I have Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas there.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it!

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got the flower from Alice in Wonderland and the rocking horse. I鈥檝e got Beauty and the Beast.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love it.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Nightmare Before Christmas again, Alice in Wonderland the rabbit. I鈥檝e got Pocohontas at the back here.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 They are amazing tats, Em.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Little Mermaid.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That just sounds like so much pain, so much pain.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 so worth it though.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It sounds amazing, absolutely fantastic.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Can I ask, are we allowed to ask, are you and Luke still together?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You have to keep watching.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, can I ask a question then? How are you getting on since filming finished and what鈥檚 next for you?

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 just keeping it all close to my chest at the minute. What will be will be. And I鈥檓 very grateful for everything that has happened so far.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you stay in touch with us and tell us everything that you do. And then you come in again and I can be all strange around you another time.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Of course, 100%.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We have loved this chat, Jay. Thank you so much for giving us your time. And we鈥檙e going to be glued for the rest of the series.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Everyone鈥檚 got to watch it.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much guys for having me. I really appreciate it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Married At First Sight is on E4. It鈥檚 at 9pm every week and you鈥檝e just got to watch it for Jay.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Every week night.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yes, every week night. I got a bit...

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Monday to Thursday 9pm E4.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a commitment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It is.

JAY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 worth it. Thanks Jay.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was Jay from Married At First Sight. Honestly, she was brilliant. I was a little bit fan girlie. I do apologise, listeners. But I am really rooting for her and Luke. If they鈥檙e not together anymore I don鈥檛 know what I鈥檓 going to do.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, next week, breaking news permitting I must say, Emma and I are going to be on Radio 5 Live on Thursday 19th October. We鈥檙e going to be on the afternoon Drive Time programme where we鈥檙e going to be live from the National Star College in Cheltenham. I鈥檝e been to National Star quite a few times; it鈥檚 a great college. I鈥檓 quite excited about that. We鈥檒l be bringing you highlights from that next week. Plus we鈥檝e got an amazing interview with the most brilliant, smart, savvy, confident 18 year old, you are not going to want to miss. I mean, she鈥檚 brilliant. She鈥檚 everything I would have wanted to have been at 18.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, you can get in contact with us in all the usual ways. We are @成人论坛AccessAll on X, and you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Until next week people, goodbye.

[Trailer for The Today Podcast]

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Amol.

NICK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 Nick, and we鈥檙e launching The Today Podcast from Radio 4.

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听 Come on then, what is it, Nick?

NICK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, every week we鈥檙e going to take a big subject we want to spend more time on. Because, I don鈥檛 know about you, when I present the Today programme I鈥檓 always thinking of things I wish I鈥檇 asked, I wish I鈥檇 heard, and this is going to give us the time to do that: to get more analysis, more insight, sometimes more gossip.

AMOL-听听听听听听听听听听听 Same goes for me. I鈥檓 looking forward to this. Episodes will drop every Thursday. It鈥檚 called The Today Podcast and you can listen now on 成人论坛 Sounds.

听