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6th November 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 77

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re a lot earlier in the week this week, Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, I know. It felt a bit illegal not battling the traffic on a Thursday morning, looking like I’d been dragged through a hedge backwards because I’ve had no time to get ready.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, did you not have to battle the traffic this morning?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I did, it’s exactly the same. Just earlier on in the week [laughter].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, you’re not feeling as drained, as burnt out as you do on a Thursday because you’ve already done a week of work.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s true, yeah, get it done at the beginning of the week. Eh, we’ve got some exciting news though, don’t we, this week?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, we do.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because our super-secret mission, a bit like it was our very own Challenge Anneka, wasn’t it? Well, it’s been completed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes it has.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Explain more, Emma Tracey.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, last time we had a really, really lovely chat with Strictly Come Dancing’s first live audio describer, Georgina Rose. And we set her a sneaky task to get a word, a special word in on the Saturday night show.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and because I’m an egomaniac I suggested the word Foxy, of course I did.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was so excited to hear it.

[Clip]ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý

GEORGINA-ÌýÌýÌý Nigel and Katya slightly foot kicking but still foxy foxtrot.

[End of clip]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Foxy, she did it!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hurrah!

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳’s weekly podcast which, alongside all the personal chat from me and Em, is all about disability and mental health. I’m Nikki Fox, and I’m in our London studio as always.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And in Edinburgh I’m Emma Tracey.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, in case you’ve not come across us before, we are both disabled. We do like to talk about that a lot; well obviously Emma way more than me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oi!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m blind, I’m blind. What’s on the podcast this week, Em?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now that we know that railway ticket offices won’t be closing we’ll be looking at the challenges around fighting for more accessible transport with the laws that we have at our disposal at the moment.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can hear the latest edition of our show by saying, oi Alexa, ask for ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Access All – don’t say oi. Or you can whip out your phone, go to ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Sounds and subscribe to Access All.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of the big stories we’ve been following on the podcast is the proposal from railway operating companies to close hundreds of ticket offices around the country. Well, last week the government announced it had asked the companies to withdraw their proposal after 750,000 people responded to the consultation. A source told the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ that railway companies were furious because they claim the Department for Transport had already approved the plans.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One group who will not be furious about this is Transport4All who campaign for more accessible transport. And they really led the way with their campaign to ask disabled people to get involved with the consultation and to respond. Policy manager Emma Vogelman sent us this voice note:

EMMA V-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The government’s U-turn is certainly a bittersweet victory I think for all disabled campaigners. We’re of course thrilled that ticket offices won’t be closed in train stations. But ultimately this consultation shouldn’t have happened. We recognise the severe impacts that this time has had on disabled people. It’s caused a huge amount of anxiety and worry. It’s important to remember that there are still legal challenges in process, including a judicial review claim on the accessibility of this consultation.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I was interested in the decision because 750,000 people replying to a consultation, Em, is a huge number, isn’t it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, I’ve never heard of such a number replying to a consultation.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s a whopper. The transport secretary said that the industry proposals had not met the high threshold set by ministers. Now, access to transport is something we hear a lot about, don’t we, Em? Transport is not straightforward when you’re disabled and problems happen, and when they do we hear about it. So, why do the same things keep happening again and again? And a question for you Emma Tracey: wasn’t access to transport supposed to have been supported out by the Equality Act 2010?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was the idea. In October the transport committee of MPs met with a panel of experts to discuss this very thing. Some of whom suggested that regulators should be a greater part of the solution. And the committee asked whether there were any countries doing this better than the UK at the moment. And one of the expert panellists, professor Anna Lawson, explained the Canada has an accessibility commissioner, and that’s to get organisations to meet their legal obligations. So, that commissioner can inspect companies and they can enforce their legal obligations, and that’s so that individual disabled people don’t have to take the companies to court on individual personal discrimination cases. And that’s what has to be done in the UK.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’ve only got that very same professor, Anna Lawson, on the line with us now. Anna is a professor of law at the University of Leeds. And it’s so lovely to have you on, Anna.

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you. It’s a real treat for me to be here.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, we’ve also got Tim McSharry who volunteers with Access Use-Ability Group, and went through the difficult process of trying to enforce access duties around plans to change the taxi rank at Leeds station. Hello Tim.

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did I pronounce the surname right, Tim?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Perfect.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah. We’re going to be coming to you in a little bit Tim, because we know Anna can’t be with us for too long today, she’s got to get off. So, I’m going to start with you, Anna. First off could you help us understand this subject a bit more? Like how straightforward is it to get something done when it comes to transport?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s very fragmented. The Equality Act does cover it, so technically we do have rights. But enforcing those rights is very, very difficult. Well, it’s hard to find people to give legal advice, but even if you find them then there are financial risks. It’s not an easy process. Transport, as we know, it covers so many different types of transport and there are often different regulators for each one, who have slightly different types of obligation, so it’s a quagmire.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Any change that happens is that entirely down to an individual having the time, the energy, the resilience to take a case?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lot of it is. There’s the Equality and Human Rights Commission; its role is to take some of that pressure off us. But its resources have been cut back and cut back and cut back and cut back. And to be honest accessibility it sits alongside their other duties around equality, which apply to everybody on grounds of gender, race etc.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s a small, small part of what they do?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a very small technical part of what they do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And can organisations not take cases?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They can do, but they have to have a good case. They can’t do it independently, so they have to have somebody who’s been discriminated against, who’s gone through the system and experienced the disadvantage. So, you still need that person to go through all the trauma.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s still down to the individual?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s still down to the individual.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I hear about the Equality Act a lot and how it’s difficult for many people to use it, for many of the reasons that you’ve discussed. But would you say that it is the protection that disabled people need? Is it good enough?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it could be strengthened, it could be simplified, it could be made much easier for us all to understand. One of my main concerns at the moment is about the lack of proactive embedding of equality obligations, including around accessibility. And that’s I think something that we can look to what’s happening in other countries, for example of things that are going well, like in Canada. But we can also look to some examples of what’s being done in this country. So, we have the public websites and mobile apps direct regulations which came into force a couple of years ago, and those actually do take a much more proactive approach to embedding basic equality obligations into what public bodies do when they’re putting their websites together. It puts an obligation on a government department to do checks, to monitor. It creates a much easier way for us as individuals to make complaints, which then get looked at. And that’s actually proving very effective, but we only have that in small, fragmented areas like that. That sort of approach needs to be much more mainstreamed.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When companies are looking at access they should be scared that if they don’t do it they will get in trouble. To me it’s quite simple.

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Why aren’t they scared enough?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a really good question. I think even if you do go to court the amount of damages you get are actually quite small. So, the penalty that the transport provider has to pay is really very small, so it’s almost a price worth paying to continue the bad practice. In Canada I was looking and I think the penalty is something like $250,000 for breach.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What is it here?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A tenner!

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I’m not entirely sure but I think in the region of £5,000 to £10,000.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know you’ve got to go and be a professor and all of that?

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got to go and teach.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you Anna.

ANNA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tim, are you all right? You’ve been listening to all of that, haven’t you?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that is an absolutely exemplary thumbnail of all the key issues, and certainly based on my experience so, so true.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, let’s tell people about your experience. What happened to you, Tim?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This was going back to before COVID hit the fan. It was January 2020 when we first found out that an absolutely excellent level access taxi rank outside the main concourse of Leeds station was going to be removed and placed on a different level. When we found that out we clearly said, ‘Have you considered the fact that it’s lovely level access now, so there’s no stairs, no lifts?’ And what they were introducing were lifts and stairs, which we pointed out was a bit of a nightmare for all sorts of reasons.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As we heard from Anna, it is a risky business taking this kind of action.

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. We believed that by taking the smalls claims route and making it under a certain amount we ended up saying it’s not about any money, it’s about the actual outcome, so we believed we’d crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s, that we’d protected liabilities, that we could take this to court. But horrifically and to our shock the local authority engaged the leading QC then from London, they engaged two leading transport barristers from London, and once they got involved, obviously they were good at their job, the inequity of legal knowledge…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Of your team and their team: they went in all guns blazing and you were volunteers.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s like a film, isn’t it?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it was – I’ve got to say, I still have flashbacks – it was absolutely horrific.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, your team lost in that instance and the taxi rank is due to go ahead?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. The absolute horror within that is their barrister then asked the judge to award costs. We thought we were safe from costs.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You had to pay money?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You almost had to pay costs as well, but you didn’t pay it in the end?

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, of the two barristers and QC or KC that were involved. It would not have been cheap; I think more than £50 I believe [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 50 grand?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just a little bit. No, a bit more than 50 quid.

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m glad to say, and we will be forever thankful to the judge, the judge said, ‘I am not minded to award costs in this case’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, thank goodness.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It really does highlight how difficult and how risky. It’s a risky business, isn’t it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We do have a statement from a Leeds City Council spokesperson. They said:

COUNCIL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The proposals will make New Station Street pedestrian friendly, safer and traffic free. As part of this LCC, WYCA and Network Rail developed proposals and LCC gained planning permission to relocate the taxi rank to Bishopsgate Street. The proposed move means that people will no longer have to cross a busy road to access the taxi rank. And with the number of people using Leeds station expected to rise significantly over the coming years it will also make it easier for people to travel to and from the station using what is already a very busy street.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for joining us today, Tim.

TIM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tim McSharry and you volunteer, don’t you, with Access Use-ability Group in Leeds.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This year’s Disability Power 100 list is out, and the top ten names are going to be announced in a very glitzy ceremony this week. The aim of this list is to shine a light on brilliant disabled people to create role models from every sector of society, and to just basically celebrate lots of incredibly talented people. I don’t know if you know this Em, but we both know somebody that was on the list. She was number one for a year.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, Rosie Jones.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now you’re just taking the mick. It was me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know it was you [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know it was you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was number one for a year. I didn’t feel particularly powerful that year, but it was a real honour. Something must have gone wrong I think. And now we’re lucky enough to be joined by one of the young people who have been named as a rising star of the year: 17 year-old Ava Joliffe is a deafblind disabled artist and designer from Lancashire, and with her today is her mum, Laura, who’s going to be interpreting for her.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, nice to hear from you guys.

AVA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m a little bit nervous.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s a little bit nervous unfortunately, and it’s all a bit kind of ooh, so.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ava, do not be nervous. Honestly, we’re all right. Well, congratulations Ava. This is so exciting. How chuffed are you to be on the list?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s she saying is she’s very excited and proud to be on the list. It’s a real privilege to be included. We’ve got some amazing disabled peers. She’s worked really hard to show that as a deafblind person that she’s a contributor, and that actually opportunity often is her biggest problem rather than her disability. And she’s very proud because obviously the award is in the name of Clare Gray, and so that makes it very special to her.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve been doing this lovely bright and colourful art for a few years now. Can you just describe it for us?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s she saying is she’s always loved to draw and do art. But when she became ill when she was three years old at that point she lost her hearing, she lost a large portion of her vision and her speech, and also became wheelchair enabled as well, so it was her only way of communicating. As she’s got older obviously she’s learnt BSL and that’s been brilliant; but the art and her are now sort of inextricably combined together. She uses it as well to bridge that division because she uses very bright digital art, it’s very pronounced, and that’s to help engage everyone but especially people with visual impairments like her who need that bright colour.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really beautiful hearing that. It’s not just art though, is it? As we said at the start you are also a designer, and you’ve worked with a couple of brands to create clothing for disabled children and adults. And I’m just interested to understand what you add or take away from clothes that are specifically for disabled people?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s had so many problems herself when she’s been looking for clothes on the high street, finding clothes that are suitable. They make a lot of clothes who are petite, people who are short, people who are tall; but they actually don’t consider disability.

AVA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And fashionable.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, fashionable, exactly. That’s what she’s saying, as a disabled person she wants to look fashionable, but they’ve also got to be practical and comfortable. So, it’s important to understand everyone’s complexities, whether it’s somebody with limb loss, somebody with difficulties with their tactile needs or toileting or feeding, all these complexities are not being addressed at the moment. And so she feels quite passionate she wants to make that change.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, what is next for Ava?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Coming up she’s got a new art exhibition called Paper View, which is portraiture. So, basically she’s taking images of people and transferring them into portraits. And you will not know from the picture who’s disabled and who’s not disabled, but there are a mixture of people with different kinds of disabilities in there, physical, mental health and what have you. And she just wants people to see the art and not to make assumptions.

She’s been working on books as well which has been an ongoing process. She’s been doing a children’s book for parents and children who have got a visual impairment. So, she’s always struggled to find books that have been appropriate for her for her age, that a parent with visual impairment can read to a child or a child with visual impairment can help read back with a parent. But it is quite a long process because Ava’s doing the animation and doing the writing. We have our artistic differences, shall we say, from time to time [laughter].

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve also been working on doing some more design work with an adaptive company.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Laura, you're Ava’s mum, you’re interpreting today. You must be so proud of Ava?

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, you know what, this girl blows me away. She’s absolutely amazing. Disabilities aside this girl would always be amazing. She just thrives on her ambition and doing what she wants to do. But it’s just so lovely that the way that she’s got it focused and pointed means that other people benefit as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s worth mentioning as well, just so our listeners know, Ava didn’t mind us asking you that question obviously. But before we finish Ava did mention the incredible, brilliant, funny, beautiful Clare Gray, who sadly passed away last month. Now, Clare was a force. She worked tirelessly on the power list. She was so passionate about it. She just believed so intensely about the power of role models. So, this one I know this year is going to be dedicated to Clare. Thank you Clare for everything, and I know you are really missed.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you guys.

LAURA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for having us. It’s really lovely that again with the difficulties that we have, complexities we have here, sometimes we feel like we get excluded because obviously it’s a lot to ask someone to cope with the whole range of complexities that we have and that we have to deal with on a daily basis. And so Ava gets isolated from a lot of things, so to be included is lovely, so thank you.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, if you went to a residential sixth form college and got up to half the shenanigans the characters in new ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Three show, Kirkmoore, do, well then you’ve got a very fruity past let’s say. The one-off comedy drama is set in a specialist college which claims to focus on independence and intellect. But the students have got other things on their mind, and that is nooky, people. We’re going to explain that one later. But produced by the guys behind the Inbetweeners, Kirkmoore is written by and stars top disabled talent. The writer, Andrew Bogle, and one of the shows actors, Keron Day, are here to tell us more. I’m very excited. All right, Bogle?

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You all right?

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And so lovely to meet you, Keron. It’s a first.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We watched it, it’s really good. Are you proud of it?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m so proud of it. It’s amazing to have a show with a disabled cast and disabled talent behind the screen as well. It’s so important.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For people who haven’t seen it yet we’re going to play a little clip. Let’s have a little listen to this bit. This is Keron’s character David, when he finds out Francesca Mills, who plays Chloe, is abandoned by a date:

[Clip]

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Where’s your date?

CHLOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I’m just waiting for her to get back from the loo. She’s been in there 90 minutes.

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hadn’t we better check she’s okay?

CHLOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý David, she bailed on me. Might have even climbed out the window, I was that unattractive. I should have listened to you and stayed in and written my essay.

[End of Clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Aw, I know.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Poor Chloe.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But it was internet dating. It always go horrendously wrong no matter what you do or who you are. For people that don’t know, Bogle, a specialist sixth form is for disabled people who can’t get the right support with their A-levels in mainstream school. And some are residential and take students from all over the country. That’s kind of a little backgrounder for people that don’t know. But what can people expect when they watch Kirkmoore? Because I don’t think it’s what people would expect.

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The main priority was to make people real, people who are flawed, normal teenage life, disabled teenagers who want to get laid like any other teenager.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, are you saying hat Kirkmoore is funny, but it’s also about people wanting to get laid? Because there is sex in it, talking about being stuck in a sexual position.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was good [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s porn, there’s dating, there’s clubbing. It’s just a den or debauchery really.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you went to residential, didn’t you, Bogle? Was it based on that experience?

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I needed to tone it down for the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You had to tone it down for the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh wowzers. Why didn’t I go to a residential sixth form?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. I bet you, Keron, you’re sad you didn’t go to a sixth form. Because you went to mainstream, didn’t you?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The mainstream massive.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d imagine though that there are still elements of Kirkmoore that you can relate to as a young nearly 22 year-old?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely. I could tell straightaway as soon as I read the script that it was written by a disabled person because there are nuances in it that I think that only we as disabled people can get. The scene that jumped out for me to start with was the one on the toilet.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý With Colin, the not so useful carer. And I knew straightaway that I’d hopefully get the part just so I could do that scene.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that. To explain for people that haven’t seen it yet, this is brilliant, because people that have PAs or carers or whatever language you use will get this immediately [laughter]. Sometimes when you employ people, some are better than others. And there’s this dude who’s the PA in the college, isn’t he?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And he kind of wants to do it because he wants to say he’s doing it, but he doesn’t actually want to do what you want him to do.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He jumps over all kinds of barriers whilst I’m on the toilet. But I can totally relate to that because I think we’ve all, anyone who has a supporter anyway, knows what those people are like.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the struggles with support, because you had your own struggles with support recently, didn’t you?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, as the adult social care system is really difficult to navigate. I think each one of those words adult social care is kind of misleading. You’re not really treated like an adult; you’re patronised and dehumanised. It’s very antisocial. It’s very invasive, it’s unnecessarily invasive. And finally care, they don’t seem to care.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But for you and Andrew, in the field you’re in as an actor and a writer, Andrew, you need a bit of flexibility.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a big issue. They tried to cut overnight care, which meant I would have had to have been in bed by 10 o’clock. Well, if there’s a scene down an alleyway because Andrew wants me to have a wee down some alleyway or whatever Andrew gets me to do, I know I can’t get back. And it’s crazy that we have to fight for so much.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Bogle, how did you get the process of getting this comedy out of your head and onto paper? What was the whole experience like?

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We had a little bit of time in development, about 18 months to get it how we wanted to get.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. And are you proud, Andrew?

ANDREW-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I really am. The acting talent is amazing. I’m ashamed that we don’t get more programmes that show disabled people as real people.

[Clip]

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my god, if I don’t lose my virginity soon I’ll explode.

CHLOE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s really not all that, mate.

[End of Clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Basically Bogle’s campaign is to show disabled people as total idiots. I love that. And Keron, you’re not just in Kirkmoore, you’ve been in Sex Education as well.

[Clip]

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wish people understood that our problems come from barriers in society, not from our disabilities.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who is that?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not sure. I’ve never seen him before.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t think he goes here.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m just very passionate.

[Clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What a big show to be in. That must have been quite cool.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it was slightly unreal. It was all very quick as well because of the way the show worked and production wise, I found out a week before and then I was on the set a week later.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then the week after that I was with Andrew. It was quite a quick turnaround in between shooting one and shooting the other.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just very quickly, what does happen to you in the show, in Sex Education?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The clip you just heard was my scene. It was a protest about disability rights and about accessibility. And that’s where I kind of pop up and make a Mean Girls reference.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hey!

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s how I got introduced to that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What was the Mean Girls reference?

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There’s a scene in Mean Girls where a student or past student turns up and all the other students aren’t sure who she was, and says the lines that I say in the show. So, it was kind of a direct reference from that film.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A small but perfectly formed part, I would say.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been so nice chatting to you both. Andrew, it’s so nice to see you again. And Keron, it’s so lovely to meet you.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I just finish on one point?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Go on, Keron.

KERON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I hope the industry starts to understand that diversity without disability is not diversity.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a very good point to make. Thank you for ending on that, Keron.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks Andrew Bogle.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you Andrew Bogle, Bogle, Bogle. Kirkmoore is on iPlayer now so definitely go and have a watch.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it’s full of disabled actors. We talked about two of them but there are many.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. Now, last week we were talking about how some card payment devices are inaccessible to visually impaired people because they don’t have actual buttons, it’s all that flat touchscreen shenanigans, isn’t it, Ems?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hmm.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sam from Essex mailed us to tell us she’s had problems recently because of these card readers, and she even had to give her PIN out at the dentist. I’ve had to do that at a petrol station. Now, she says that going to get cash isn’t possible for her either because the cash machines near her are also not accessible. But she thinks all this could be easily resolved. We’ve got a little clip:

SAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All the providers need to give to the merchants is some kind of overlay, maybe a bit of plastic with markers to indicate where the numbers are, especially with a dot on the number five as we all readily know about. I realise that some shops may not have this or may lose it, but this is surely a really simple solution. It’s unfair that as a blind person I’m being deprived of the option to use my account.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý An overlay, Ems. Would that help?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, it would. Actually it comes with most of the machines but they tend to get thrown out with the box because people don’t know what they’re for. And Katie also got in touch. She was saying that a good way to get past this is to take someone’s order like you would take it online, so you send a payment link and the person can pay for something in the privacy of their device without having to shout out all of their details in the shop. So, if it’s an inaccessible machine the shop can send a link and the disabled person can buy it over their device. It happens. It’s super handy. It’s happened to me; I’ve had it from small businesses and it did work.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, good workaround. Thank you everyone. Thank you Sam and Katie for getting in touch. We absolutely love to hear from you so do send us an email, it’s accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we’re on WhatsApp +44 – oh, that’s a new one – 330 123 9480. Or you can message us on X, formerly known as Twitter. When are we going to stop saying formerly known as Twitter, eh?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know. We’ll be back with you at the same time next week. Bye.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Same time, same place. Goodbye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

ÌýPRESENTER-Ìý You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

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PRESENTER-ÌýÌý We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER-ÌýÌý We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER-ÌýÌý We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER-ÌýÌý And we talk to the best ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ journalists, asking the most important questions:

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CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t start me, Chris.

PRESENTER-ÌýÌý That’s Newscast from ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

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