成人论坛

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11th December 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 82

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, we鈥檝e been on air for about 18 months now, and we鈥檙e about to move on to the fourth disability minister in that time. We heard the news last week that Tom Pursglove, who we鈥檝e interviewed on this show, well he has moved position in government after Robert Jenrick resigned. So, now Tom is the minister for legal immigration. And presently there is an opening for another disability minister.

SOPHIE-听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e joking! Not another one!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, let鈥檚 have a little look back as to how many disability ministers there have been in the last seven years when Theresa May was Prime Minister. Go for it, love:

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e just waved goodbye to Tom Pursglove from August 2022 to just about last week some time. Then we鈥檝e got Claire Coutinho for a couple of weeks.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We never met her.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Chloe Smith from 2021 to 2022. Justin Tomlinson from 2019 to 2021.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Twice. Two separate occasions he was disability minister.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sarah Newton, 2017 to 2019. And Penny Mordaunt, 2016 to 2017. Sophie Morgan has posted on this, has she?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, she posted a story. And I thought she kind of summed up the frustrations that when you have to deal with ministers a lot, trying to push for change. So, she has been talking and meeting with Tom and the team quite a lot recently, and she said, 鈥淚 felt like I was making headway and now he鈥檚 gone who do we pick up with?鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, you鈥檝e got to go right back to the beginning.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 All that momentum completely lost. And I think that is the frustration from disabled people and campaigners that have to write, they have to speak to these departments; when there鈥檚 a roundabout of ministers it鈥檚 kind of difficult for them to have the consistency that they need to push forward the important points that impact disabled people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, the DWP say that they haven鈥檛 filled the position yet, so we鈥檒l keep you updated.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. No news so far.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 Access All, the 成人论坛鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox, and as always I鈥檓 in London.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Em, when it comes to looking good 鈥� which you always do by the way, always, always 鈥� but looking good and accessibility, you know, being able to move around and wear stuff that鈥檚 kind of hassle free, what are your top tips? I know you鈥檙e going to give me the lowdown later so don鈥檛 answer that question now.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay [laughs]. Plus we鈥檝e got Raymond Antrobus, international award-winning poet joining us in a bit. As well as catching us all up on his news he鈥檒l be performing a poem for us. We did do this interview a few weeks ago, and the poem is about bedtime stories with his father when he was a deaf child. I can tell you it鈥檚 absolutely fantastic.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it really is. It鈥檚 such a treat, so do stay tuned for that. And coming up in a second we鈥檒l be communicating with some far-flung islands in the Pacific Ocean. I love this. But serious point, we鈥檙e hearing directly from disabled people experiencing the effects of climate change. A very interesting subject that one.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 There is a transcript of this podcast every single week. Follow us on X and we will post a link every time. We鈥檙e @成人论坛AccessAll. And you can also hear us by saying, Alexa ask 成人论坛 Sounds for Access All.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 COP28, the annual UN summit where the world gets together to try and solve the climate crisis, well it鈥檚 just coming to an end. It said that disabled people are some of the worst affected groups when it comes to climate change. Here in the UK, so far at least, we鈥檝e been relatively cushioned from the growing environmental changes that are happening.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, COP this year has been in Dubai and was billed as the most inclusive COP so far. Earlier I spoke to Gordon Ratray from The European Disability Forum who was there. And he鈥檚 a wheelchair user, so the obvious question for Gordon was if that included disabled people too.

GORDON-听听听听听听 There hasn鈥檛 been a great difference in accessibility at COP28 compared with previous COPs in my experience; especially when it comes to access to information. For example, things like sign interpretation, captioning, information presented or provided in advance in easy to read or plain language format just doesn鈥檛 exist. The electronic information available is also quite limited. That鈥檚 talking about the information regarding negotiations and a possibility to input to the documents and the discussions going into the final outcome documents. Getting around, the place is huge, and there are some provisions, there are some accessibility buggies which are there to help people get around, but for some people who use wheelchairs who need some support it鈥檚 still challenging.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 The bar is still quite low regarding the most accessible and inclusive COP ever.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And in terms of disabled people being given an opportunity, do they have more of a chance to speak now?

GORDON-听听听听听听 It is getting better, but even when you go to events that are around human rights you see that disability isn鈥檛 mentioned by the presenters. So, I鈥檓 talking here about so-called mainstream events.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檇 imagine the activists are kind of getting better and better at raising their hands and knowing how to get their voices heard?

GORDON-听听听听听听 That鈥檚 for sure. This is definitely the COP which has had the most representation of disabled people that I have seen. We have daily meetings for what we call the disability group, and every day there have been more people attending those meetings. We鈥檝e been meeting more people with disabilities, more disabled people here that weren鈥檛 aware that we are active as a group. We鈥檝e got people from Latin America, people from Africa, people from Asia, people from Europe; the strength of the movement is improving.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That was Gordon Ratray from The European Disability Forum speaking from COP in Dubai.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, on the line we鈥檝e got two disabled people who live in the more affected areas of the world. In the Pacific island of Samoa we have got Ari. Hello Ari, how are you?

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Ari, I鈥檓 very well thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for joining us. And in the Solomon Islands we鈥檝e got Melvina on the line. Hello Melvina.

MELVINA-听听听听听 Hello. Good evening from Solomon Islands everyone.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 so lovely to have you on. We know we鈥檝e got a bit of a dodgy internet connection. We should just get stuck into the main topic, which is the environment. And I鈥檓 going to start first of all, Melvina, I don鈥檛 think you鈥檒l mind me saying you鈥檝e got mobility difficulties and that causes you problems in the heat. So, could you tell me a little bit about that?

MELVINA-听听听听听 Yeah, actually the heat here is not normal compared to before when I was little and up to this time, it鈥檚 like it really increased. And we cannot work under the sun for a very long time because it鈥檚 really hot. We can get headache or fever or even sunburn. My movement is so slow, and so when working in the sun or trying to do activities in the hot sun, yeah, it鈥檚 really affecting.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And the sea levels are rising, aren鈥檛 they? And that can contaminate the fresh water in the wells. And I just wondered what solution your government has come up with. Am I right in thinking there are also access difficulties with getting water as well?

MELVINA-听听听听听 [Line breaks up]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e having quite bad technical difficulties, Melvina, but I think what you were saying, and I know what you鈥檝e been saying to us beforehand, is that the water tanks aren鈥檛 particularly accessible because the taps are too high for many wheelchair users. Which would be really difficult because obviously you鈥檙e a lot lower down when you鈥檙e in a wheelchair, and if you can鈥檛 reach them you can鈥檛 reach them. I think that鈥檚 quite a big problem for you.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 just going to bring in here Jodie Santos who鈥檚 been waiting very patiently on the line. We鈥檙e going to come to Ari as well, so stay there, Ari. But Jodie works for, well you head up The Disability Justice Project, don鈥檛 you? And you gave smartphones so that people could document what鈥檚 going on, well disabled people could document what鈥檚 going on when it comes to climate related issues. And Jodie, you鈥檙e quite familiar with Melvina, aren鈥檛 you, and a few of the issues that she faces where she is?

JODIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, that鈥檚 correct. So, I鈥檓 the executive director of The Disability Justice Project, and we train disabled human rights defenders in the global south in documentary storytelling. And this summer we went to the Pacific Islands and we trained five fellows, and Ari and Melvina were among those fellows. The way that we trained them how to make documentaries is with the iPhone, which is more accessible, particularly for blind and low vision users.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know Melvina was also telling us before 鈥� and I鈥檓 sorry I鈥檓 having to talk for you here, Melvina; it鈥檚 just because of a dodgy line because you are so far away 鈥� but you were talking about how people grow food on the land because the markets are often too expensive, but it鈥檚 getting harder because when flooded the water heats up and the vegetables get cooked in the ground; which is an extraordinary thought. I hadn鈥檛 even thought about that. Were you aware of that, Jodie?

JODIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I wasn鈥檛 aware of that. I do know that obviously climate change is affecting the growing season so it鈥檚 taking longer to grow vegetables. For a lot of people with disabilities in the Pacific Islands access to formal employment is harder, and so a lot of them do rely on sustainable livelihoods, including gardening and fishing. And those have been severely impacted by climate change, which is affecting food security, water security, some of those issues that Melvina touched on.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And Melvina when she was with us she was also talking about the rising heat and the rising temperature. And Ari, we were talking about that before we started recording, weren鈥檛 we, and you were saying it鈥檚 getting a lot hotter where you are?

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. Here in Samoa the highest degrees that we go up to is 31. However, we have 31 degrees almost throughout the year now and it鈥檚 quite hot. Imagine having 31 degrees; we don鈥檛 even have seasons like winter or summer or spring. So, imagine living with that heat for most of the time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ari, I鈥檓 told that in Samoa you鈥檙e working on making emergency information more accessible, and you鈥檝e been quite a big part of that, haven鈥檛 you?

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. This particular project was done in collaboration with our Ministry of the Environment and Natural Resources, where they provided booklets that had info for preparedness and post-disaster preparedness and response. Disasters like floods, earthquakes, fires, landslides, you name it. So, at the Samoa Blind Person鈥檚 Association we were tasked to produce 200 copies into braille.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 something that we are very proud of.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sign language, that鈥檚 also become available in Samoa too?

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sign language of course we have started to produce, say for example, disaster preparedness adverts on TV. However, this is inconsistent and needs to be followed up and improved upon. And perhaps a government budgetary allocation would help with that because most of these projects are funded by aid overseas, but since Samoa has ratified the UN CRPD in 2016 it鈥檚 now about time for our government to take ownership. The floods came at a time when they were not expecting it, because our flood period usually starts in what we call the cyclone period usually starts from November to April. However, the floods occurred in the middle of June. And this wheelchair user in particular was quite terrified and shocked that the flooding came and affected his village on one of the big islands called Savai驶i. His furniture was ruined.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, he wasn鈥檛 prepared?

ARI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, he wasn鈥檛 prepared. And that鈥檚 the thing, the weather patterns have changed. So, this must be due to the greenhouse effect or whatever decisions that big countries make, and then this has an adverse impact on us.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hey Jodie, I鈥檝e just been told in my ear that you鈥檝e got a story about someone using mattresses for safety. Is that right?

JODIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. So, one of the places that we visited over the summer was Fiji, and we went to what鈥檚 called an informal settlement. Which means that people basically live there not legally, so they build their houses, they don鈥檛 own the land. And again, a high percentage of persons with disabilities. So, one of the places that we visited we talked to the woman who鈥檚 the disability liaison, and she was basically talking about how many evacuation centres in Fiji aren鈥檛 accessible, and so people would rather stay at home and take the risks that come with that than go to one of these evacuation centres. So, in the settlement where she lives what families would do, particularly for wheelchair users, is they would stack mattresses as high as they could and they would put the family member on top of the mattress and then they would climb up, and they would wait out the flooding until it was over. And this woman was saying that when you鈥檙e around standing water for a long period of time it can lead to an increase in diseases. But again, these families would rather do that than endure the indignities associated with inaccessible evacuation centres.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檝e heard of all of these stories, and I鈥檝e just heard more now from Ari and Melvina, and it makes me think is there enough emphasis put on disability when we鈥檙e talking about climate change. Where do we fit in that conversation? What needs to be done? Because it doesn鈥檛 seem like there鈥檚 a great deal of anything going on.

JODIE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I think that鈥檚 true. So, by international law countries are obligated to include and consider persons with disabilities in their climate response plans. But there was a study, I think it was in 2022, that of the 192 parties to the Paris Accord for instance, only 35 had actually mentioned persons with disabilities in their climate pledges. It鈥檚 one of the most affected populations and the governments are not including them, both in the planning process, having a seat at the table, and also in their response plans in general.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This won鈥檛 be the last time we speak about this by any stretch. But thank you so much for that fascinating chat. Thank you to Jodie. Thank you so much Ari, from Samoa, and also Melvina from the Solomon Islands. Thank you for joining us.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, Ems, you know how we鈥檙e getting closer to Christmas and New Year?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Uh-huh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And lots of have got more social events in the calendar, haven鈥檛 we?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Some of us do [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 dreading it all to be honest. I鈥檝e literally taken so many out, Ems. But I have got one quite important one and I鈥檓 already thinking, well I have been thinking for the last month, what am I going to wear. I can鈥檛 find anything, Ems. I鈥檝e lost my style.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because honestly there鈥檚 times when you do look in your wardrobe, or feel in your wardrobe if you鈥檙e going to be really specific about it 鈥� because I鈥檓 blind, you know.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No way!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, yes I am.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 sorry, what?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughter] I am so sorry for keeping this from you. But you do, you just try on all your stuff and nothing feels right at all, does it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And there can be added problems, can鈥檛 there, of clothes not fitting as well you鈥檇 like them to, like if you鈥檙e me you sit on your tush all day. Jeans are often quite uncomfortable and a bit bulgy in the places that you don鈥檛 want them to bulge, you know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to talk about jeans in a minute.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are we?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We are. But remember Betty? Betty worked with us for a little while; she wasn鈥檛 on air but she was behind the scenes beavering away.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And she got really interested in disability fashion and fashion hacks, so how you can take the clothes that don鈥檛 fit that well and get them to suit you or find another way around it. And she was really interested about it because she can鈥檛 feel her legs so well, and she forgets to keep them warm and then they get really, really cold and numb. So, she adds big furry legwarmers to her look. And she鈥檚 a very young, cool person so she can obviously pull it off.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hey listen, I鈥檓 all for the legwarmers; my boyfriend鈥檚 got me into them. We call them the fluffies and they鈥檙e amazing; they go over the knees. I鈥檝e actually got a work wear version on now.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, you鈥檝e got legwarmers on right now?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do they feel like?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just lovely and fluffy and warm.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Is it like a scarf for your legs? Like a snood for your legs?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I鈥檝e got the ones with the feet, but you can have them with the cutouts so they鈥檙e just literally legwarmers.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Are they not just socks then?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. Well, they鈥檙e over the knee socks, an over the knee sock version. But I have got the legwarmer versions as well. When I keep my legs warm they don鈥檛 ache as much. Yeah, the grandma likes the legwarmers.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 really good. And it鈥檚 not just grandma. What else do you do? What other fashion workarounds do you put in place then?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I buy everything, if I can, in a tall version, which is hilarious because I am not much more than 5ft.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, why do you buy tall?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e told you this before, it鈥檚 very boring, but I wear big biker boots and then underneath those biker boots I have to wear very big, bulbous splints.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Right.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love the biker boots, but the splints kind of misshape the boots quite a lot, so it makes them look a little鈥�you know. When you鈥檙e wearing a glam dress and you鈥檝e got these hoofers on your feet and a pair of legwarmers it鈥檚 a very difficult look to pull off.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 To pull off [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I tend to wear dresses that completely cover. So, literally will cover, they鈥檒l go right over the toes of my boots. And then it just looks like a seamless line. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it鈥檚 good that you don鈥檛 have to walk in them then, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because they鈥檙e over the toe of your boots so you鈥檇 stand on it, wouldn鈥檛 you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh I see what you鈥檙e saying, Ems. I do apologise. Well, no, I do walk actually in them; I just have to hoik it up.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you always talk about stretch as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Always. Always a minimum 2% to 3% elastane in anything I buy. And I鈥檝e tried it without. I saw a lovely silk dress the other day and I was like, that鈥檒l be perfect for the One Show, they鈥檒l really like that. Had no stretch in it and I was like, why did I do it, I should have known, because it just all pulls in the wrong place. I鈥檝e got a little bit, I鈥檝e got something that resembles a waist, but there鈥檚 something there. Whereas if you鈥檝e got no stretch it kind of just hangs in all the wrong places and it just makes you look a bit boxy. And also not very comfortable, and also rises up quite high so it doesn鈥檛 cover your boots. If you鈥檝e got the stretch then it follows the shape of your body and goes over your feet. This is what I鈥檝e learnt over time. So, I online shop all the time; I never, ever go to鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you look at the ingredients?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, and I look at the ingredients. I鈥檓 like, they鈥檒l do me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because elastane makes it stretch basically.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. What do you do, Em?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, it鈥檚 very much about being comfortable. So, if I have a piece of clothing on and I鈥檓 not quite sure how it sits 鈥� and you鈥檝e seen me during the podcast sometimes if I have a wrap top that I鈥檓 not sure about, or a top that goes down a bit low or has a bit of a funny shoulder thing going on 鈥� because I can鈥檛 see myself I鈥檓 never actually quite sure whether I have it right or not. And even if I鈥檝e had it right before maybe I won鈥檛 remember what way to pop the shoulder. So, I鈥檓 very keen on having something very straightforward and comfortable; which sounds pretty boring.

I also wear a crossbody bag so I can have my hands free, with lots of pockets, because it鈥檚 very hard to find a bin when you can鈥檛 see so it鈥檚 usually full of rubbish. But also you want to have everything on you so you don鈥檛 have to go and find it or ask someone for it, or get it out of a machine if it鈥檚 a tampon or something like that. And also I鈥檝e come to wearing comfortable shoes, because I know I鈥檓 getting older, I鈥檓 in my 40s now, and that is a thing. And also high heels aren鈥檛 as important as they were years ago. But honestly, I need to be able to walk.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Especially if I鈥檓 being guided by someone I don鈥檛 know as well, or I鈥檓 in a new place, I have to be really honest with myself and say look, I just need to be able to get from A to B without piling more attention on myself.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 These are the things we have to think about was we get older, isn鈥檛 it, just decisions.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 They鈥檙e decisions based on comfort and safety.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, the lovely Betty, who you mentioned, who worked with us, she searched social media for other fashion hacks. And one innovative wheelchair user apparently tapes coins to the inside of the bottom of her dress to stop it from lifting up in the wind. Genius that!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I think we could all do that actually.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Also YouTuber Gem Hubbard she has got a bit of a clever workaround. Have a listen to this, Emma Tracey:

GEM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My biggest tip for wheelchair users would be to choose maternity jeans or maternity trousers. This is because they are so much more affordable than adaptive trousers, but they鈥檙e really comfortable around the waist. Also when you鈥檙e moving about, like transferring in and out of your wheelchair, they don鈥檛 ride down, showing anyone a flash of anything they shouldn鈥檛 see.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 so right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You were really agreeing with that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, 100%. I used to wear jeans all the time, Ems. And you know when I sit on the scooter, I鈥檝e got a little window on the back where you can see my bum-bum.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e no idea. I mean, you can鈥檛 see anything if you鈥檙e dressed properly, but for years I used to go round with my jeans, and I used to wear thongs, and every time I sat down the jeans slid right down.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I completely, Gem鈥檚 right, maternity all the way.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 very Bridget Jones, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 For many reasons [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Sticking with trousers, apparently get big loops sewn into either side of your trousers, so if you have trouble pulling them up and down they give you a bit more purchase and you can just yank them up and down. Would that be useful?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. Jean loops are my best friend. For years when I used to walk that鈥檚 how I used to walk, I used to hook my thumbs in my jean loops around the waist.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Right. So, the bigger the loops the better?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The bigger the loops the better. We also had video creator, Blind Tobes, sent us this:

TOBES-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so a couple of fashion hacks that I have as a blind man. Number one is when I鈥檝e got two items of clothes that feel exactly the same, it might be two t-shirts from the same brand but they might be in different colours, I鈥檒l put something called a bump-on on a hanger so that I can feel which hanger has, say, the white t-shirt and the hanger without the bump-on is the black t-shirt. And I鈥檒l keep that the same throughout the whole time that they鈥檙e in my wardrobe.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then the second hack is meticulously organising things. So, my wardrobe will always go in order of t-shirts, jumpers, jackets, coats, just so that I don鈥檛 have to waste time feeling around the whole wardrobe to find what I need; I can jump straight to what I want.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, Tobes, amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 the dream.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you as organised as Tobes?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No I am not. And the only way I would ever be is if I had literally a wardrobe cleaner who came in every week and arranged my wardrobes, because that is never going to happen for me. I just shove things in. I鈥檓 always in a hurry. I pull things out, throw them on the bed. I just am not capable I think.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But you have got a lot going on though. You鈥檝e got kiddywinks and all that, and a husband and a career.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Before I had any of that going on鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh okay, you鈥檙e just not.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�I had a floordrobe.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Brilliant ideas, Blind Tobes, but unfortunately I鈥檓 just not going to be able to achieve them.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We love hearing all of these so please do carry on getting in touch with us. You can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, or we鈥檙e @成人论坛AccessAll on the socials.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Our next guest, Raymond Antrobus, is a hugely successful poet and writer who was named Sunday Times Young Writer of the Year in 2019, and he鈥檚 also won the Ted Hughes Award. Now, some of his poems have even been included in the GCSE syllabus, which must be so unbelievably cool. Raymond, it is so lovely to meet you.

RAYMOND-听听听 Thank you for having me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 To top it all off, Raymond, who is deaf, published his debut children鈥檚 book, Can Bears Ski? 鈥� it鈥檚 such a good title 鈥� in 2020, which has now been turned into a theatre production. Raymond, you have got so much going on.

RAYMOND-听听听 I do.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 When he came into听 the studio, Emma, I was like, 鈥淎re you tired?鈥� [Laughter] How is the theatre show going?

RAYMOND-听听听 It鈥檚 been very emotional to see even from afar. I haven鈥檛 actually seen the play in person yet. My aim is to take my son, who鈥檚 two and a half, to go and see it. I want to see how he responds to it, because the book Can Bears Ski? is on his bookshelf, and every now and again he gets it down. He has no idea that I鈥檝e written it, so it鈥檚 always such a proud moment for me when he picks it. He picks his own books.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh amazing.

RAYMOND-听听听 Oh, you鈥檙e picking Can Bears Ski? Okay. I want to reveal to him almost when we go to see the theatre, it鈥檚 daddy鈥檚 book, you know [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, tell us about the book and how it all came about.

RAYMOND-听听听 I鈥檇 written a poem called Happy Birthday Moon, which was based on a children鈥檚 picture book that my dad used to read to me. It鈥檚 one of my earliest memories being read this story about this bear that lives out in the woods, and it鈥檚 this bear鈥檚 birthday and he looks up at the moon at night and says, it鈥檚 my birthday. And the bear鈥檚 voice echoes through the valley, and as he hears the echo he thinks that it鈥檚 the moon speaking to him. I just loved that book as a child, and I loved the way that my dad read it and performed it me as well. He kind of put me on his chest and had the book out in front of him. And he didn鈥檛 know that I was deaf at the time. So, my dad had a very kind of deep voice, I could feel the vibration of the story. I read that poem at the Bradford Literature Festival and in the audience were some people who work in children鈥檚 publishing and they said, 鈥淲e really love your work. Have you ever considered writing for children?鈥� And I said, 鈥淣o, I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 my forte鈥�. So, I at first declined writing for children.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was a brave thing.

RAYMOND-听听听 I just didn鈥檛 feel like it really aligned. But then the following week I happened to be starting a residency in a deaf school, and I went into their library and I didn鈥檛 see any books with deaf protagonists. And I鈥檓 not saying there aren鈥檛 any; I鈥檓 saying in this particular library鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You didn鈥檛 see any.

RAYMOND-听听听 鈥�I didn鈥檛 see any. And it just kind of made me think here鈥檚 a place on a shelf I would love to be. So, I actually emailed, got back to the children鈥檚 publishers, her name鈥檚 Maria and she was like, 鈥淕reat come on board鈥� and I wrote the story.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi Maria, yeah it鈥檚 Raymond, I鈥檝e changed my mind.

RAYMOND-听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know the title, Can Bears Ski? your dad didn鈥檛 know you were deaf.

RAYMOND-听听听 No.听听听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You didn鈥檛 know you were deaf.

RAYMOND-听听听 No.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And so what鈥檚 that got to do with the title? Has that got anything to do with the title?

RAYMOND-听听听 So, Can Bear鈥檚 Ski? there鈥檚 a reveal, there鈥檚 a reason for the title. And the reveal is鈥�[laughs] I don鈥檛 know if I want to reveal.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] oh, he鈥檚 playing it coy.

RAYMOND-听听听 There鈥檚 a world, and I do this with poetry as well, there鈥檚 a world in which I鈥檓 trying to create a kind of deaf logic and I鈥檓 trying to honour that experience so that it doesn鈥檛 become this thing that鈥檚 like you鈥檙e living in a wrong way or you鈥檙e living in a mistake. Can Bears Ski? [laughs] also visually offers a lot.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, it offers a lot.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But in terms of someone who鈥檚 not visual reading the book it鈥檚 very emotive and it鈥檚 very illustrative of the life of a deaf kid who doesn鈥檛 know he鈥檚 deaf, the vibrations that he recognises. Does that relate to your own time as a deaf small child?

RAYMOND-听听听 I hope so. I think the book ultimately and me as a child ultimately, and many of us, we鈥檙e looking for ways to be understood. That is the main atmosphere that I鈥檓 trying to convey. So, the deafness and the condition of deafness is almost coincidental. Because I get so many emails and messages through Instagram about this book, from a range of people with different disabilities and conditions and ways of being. And I also get a lot of messages from grandparents.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh okay.

RAYMOND-听听听 So, some of them who are recently deafened, and they say that the book has helped them communicate with their grandchild about their own deafness. It鈥檚 great.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 interesting because there are a lot of older deaf people who are newly deaf who are very misunderstood, aren鈥檛 they?

RAYMOND-听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 People start to think that they鈥檙e maybe less able or that the memory is starting to go or something like that.

RAYMOND-听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 really misunderstood. Is that something that you鈥檝e seen?

RAYMOND-听听听 It is. It鈥檚 that whole thing of like it鈥檚 not us who are disabled; it鈥檚 society itself that disables us.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

RAYMOND-听听听 And this kind of idea that there is one way to be, you鈥檙e either abled or disabled, and it is kind of that that binary is false.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What was it like when you did get a diagnosis?

RAYMOND-听听听 I was six when I was first told; I was seven when I got all the equipment, all the therapy. And in some ways I feel like I鈥檓 living with survivor鈥檚 guilt, because the kind of support I got, I got two top of the range hearing aids; radio mics; I got speech therapy; I got even a hearing therapy where I learnt about sound and how it moves, like having your own personal sound physicist; I went to a deaf school, that was also part of a mainstream school. I鈥檝e had support that 99.9% of deaf people now do not get.听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But Raymond, you can鈥檛 feel guilty about that. You were just lucky like that.

RAYMOND-听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 How did you manage to get that result? Was your mum a big part of you getting that support?

RAYMOND-听听听 Yes. There are three people specifically who championed me: my mother is one of them; and the other two are teachers of the deaf, Penny and Renata, who kind of took me on and made sure that I got support while I was in Hackney, and then when I went to a school in Islington.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And look what happened when you were able to reach your potential: you became a world famous poet. I鈥檇 love to know how has being deaf shaped your poetry? Because Nikki and I were just talking before you came along saying, oh we find so much poetry so inaccessible; whereas yours is just wonderful, brilliant, easy to catch.

RAYMOND-听听听 I appreciate that, because that has also been a criticism of my poetry that it鈥檚 too 鈥渁ccessible鈥�.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why?

RAYMOND-听听听 Well, there鈥檚 an idea that poetry ought to be coded. But this is something that I really have honed and curated in terms of my style, I think, as a poet, in the sense that I have gone through most of my life struggling to be understood, and so clarity is really important to me. I want to be in conversation with people who are open and curious and can relate in those ways.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You can do this even more now, because we mentioned this in the introduction, didn鈥檛 we, that some of your work has been included in the GCSE syllabus. Which I was saying to Emma as well, that you鈥檝e got to be like, oh job done, I can retire with a pina colada now, happy days.

RAYMOND-听听听 [Laughs] not quite.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No?

RAYMOND-听听听 It doesn鈥檛 really pay. But it is an honour, it is a privilege, and it is honestly something that I never dreamed of happening [laughs]. It鈥檚 funny.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing.

RAYMOND-听听听 It makes me laugh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we鈥檝e spoken about your work so much now, and I鈥檓 sure there are listeners that have heard and absolutely love you, but for those that haven鈥檛 do you want to read a little bit for us?

RAYMOND-听听听 Sure.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That would be wonderful.

RAYMOND-听听听 I think I鈥檒l read Happy Birthday Moon, which is the poem that I mentioned.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah!

RAYMOND-听听听 And I should say that when I write poems titles in poems can be very difficult. So, when I wrote this first draft I wanted to ground myself in the reason I was writing a poem, so I wrote a question at the top of the page. And that question was: where does my language begin? And so I wanted the poem to answer that question. So, as I read this I would like to invite every listener into that question: where does your language begin? Who do you have to thank for that language?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Nice.

RAYMOND-听听听 And what are you doing with that language now?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Swearing too much in my case.

RAYMOND-听听听 Yeah, you鈥檝e got to moderate, adjust. Okay, Happy birthday, Moon:

Dad reads aloud. I follow his finger across the page. sometimes his finger moves past words, tracing white space. He makes the Moon say something new every night to his deaf son who slurs his speech. Sometimes his finger moves past words, tracing white space. Tonight he gives the Moon my name, but I can't say it, his deaf son who slurs his speech. Dad taps the page, says, try again. Tonight he gives the Moon my name, but I can't say it. I say Rain-an Akabok. He laughs. Dad taps the page, says, try again, but I like making him laugh. I say my mistake again. I say Rain-an Akabok. He laughs, says, Raymond you're something else. I like making him laugh. I say my mistake again. Rain-an Akabok. What else will help us? He says, Raymond you're something else. I'd like to be the Moon, the bear, even the rain. Rain-an Akabok, what else will help us hear each other, really hear each other? I'd like to be the Moon, the bear, even the rain. Dad makes the Moon say something new every night and we hear each other, really hear each other. As Dad reads aloud, I follow his finger across the page.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I just love that. I really love that.

RAYMOND-听听听 Thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 not a huge poetry consumer.

RAYMOND-听听听 Thank you so much.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Your parents must be so proud?

RAYMOND-听听听 My mum is an English woman so she compliments me in the way that English people do: it鈥檚 always a very backhanded way. It鈥檚 like, 鈥淲ell done, now what else are you going to do鈥�? It鈥檚 like there鈥檚 always something else [laughter].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Keep moving forward.

RAYMOND-听听听 Yeah [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Honestly, thank you so much for coming in, Raymond, today. It鈥檚 been an absolute pleasure. Can Bears Ski? has been adapted for the stage by Definitely Theatre and the Pied Piper Theatre Company and will be playing in theatres across the country until next February. Where can people find out more, lovely?

RAYMOND-听听听 People can follow Definitely Theatre on Instagram. People can follow me on Instagram Raymond_Antrobus. I really want this to get out there so please do come along.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love it. Raymond, you鈥檝e been an absolute treat.

RAYMOND-听听听 Thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That was the wonderful Raymond Antrobus everyone. It really was something quite special sitting next to him, especially while he read that beautiful poem. It really was lovely.

Of course thinking of poetry and poets, also on the minds of so many people this week the revolutionary groundbreaking poet, Benjamin Zephaniah, who sadly died a few days ago at the age of 65. I always loved watching him on TV. I thought he was just magical actually. Like me he was also dyslexic, so I thought I鈥檇 share a few words with you about his take on being dyslexic. He wrote, 鈥業n many ways being dyslexic is a natural way to be. If you look at a pictorial language like Chinese you can see the word for a woman because the character looks like a woman, the word for a house looks like a house; early languages were like that. It is a strange step to go from that to a squiggle that represents a sound, which is how we read and write here鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 so beautiful.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I wouldn鈥檛 have known that about Chinese symbols. It鈥檚 so, so interesting. We鈥檙e back next week, and it鈥檚 the show before Christmas. And for Christmas week itself we鈥檒l be here with a very special episode with the best of Access All from 2023.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Like, subscribe, leave us a comment, double like us if you can. I mean, how you double like I don鈥檛 know, but give it a bash. We鈥檙e on 成人论坛 Sounds and wherever you get your podcasts. Just look for Access All. Spread the Christmas word if you can, people. And until next time, goodbye.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Goodbye.

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