成人论坛

6 February 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 90

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hi, I鈥檓 Emma Tracey. This is Access All, the weekly podcast where disability and mental health is always top of the agenda. This week, in the disability world at least, there is one big story, the government has released the Disability Action Plan, and that鈥檚 what we鈥檙e going to talk about today. Let鈥檚 go.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Theme music

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 On Monday the government published its Disability Action Plan. In Parliament, Mims Davies the new Disability Minister, introduced it like this.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Clip from Parliament]

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听 I am delighted to deliver on the government鈥檚 commitment to transform the everyday lives of disabled people across the country for the better. We as a government are working to make this country the most accessible place in the world for disabled people to live, work and thrive.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 She described it as one pillar in what the government are doing for disabled people. Today we鈥檒l be digging into what鈥檚 in the plan and how we got here. Interesting. With me I鈥檝e got James Taylor, Head of Policy and Strategy at disability charity Scope. Hi, James.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Hi there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got Rachel Charlton-Dailey, who鈥檚 a disability rights campaigner and journalist who writes for various publications including the Mirror and The Big Issue. Hello, Rachel.

RACHEL-听听听听听 Hello.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And we鈥檝e got the 成人论坛鈥檚 Disability Correspondent, the one and only Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 That was very official, it鈥檚 very unlike us.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 We鈥檒l stick with you first, Nikki. What is the Disability Action Plan?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 a big question there, Emma. The Disability Action Plan, as you said, is 32 actions that the government has put together to, in their words, transform the lives of disabled people. The context around this, as we know very well, Em, because we鈥檝e covered this on the podcast in the past, we had the Disability Strategy in 2021, and that was also billed, like the Action Plan, as transforming the lives of disabled people. But we know happened, obviously there was some legal action and it was all around the consultation process. Doug Paulley and others took the government to court saying that they didn鈥檛 consult properly, and if you don鈥檛 consult properly how can you come up with a big strategy to improve the lives of disabled people? They were successful, but then that was overruled by the Court of Appeal and found in the government鈥檚 favour. That was in July 2023, so there was a few years where nothing was being done because of the legal shenanigans.

That鈥檚 kind of how the Action Plan has come about really, it鈥檚 come about because of what happened to the strategy and what went on, and it was billed again as a plan to transform the lives of disabled people. The Minister for Disabled People, Mims Davies, has said she wants Britain to be the best place for disabled people to live, work and thrive. There鈥檚 some strong words behind this Action Plan.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 A mini short-term strategy?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 A mini short-term strategy. I mean they鈥檝e been bolder than I thought considering. At one point I thought okay, this is going to be the new strategy, but it鈥檚 not the new strategy. I鈥檝e spoken to the Minister鈥檚 people and the strategy as we know is still to come: the strategy part two, so this is kind of like an interim. But they have put some strong words behind it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So, what is in it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 some stuff that I know disabled people wouldn鈥檛 knock. I went to an accessible playground in Barnet, north London, which was delightful, best filming day, and there is some measures in the strategy to not put money into creating more accessible playgrounds, but to make it easier for councils to go about what they have to go about to get accessible playgrounds off the ground. But the parents that I met actually had to fundraise as well as get some money off the local authority, so money is always an issue.

We鈥檝e got stuff in here, the most controversial point actually, about the rights of assistance dog users if you鈥檙e blind and you need a guide dog, you go to a shop or whatever and you鈥檙e refused entry. That is illegal. But they have mentioned in here that they want to streamline the reporting process for access refusals.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And that鈥檚 for other assistance dogs as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 right, Emma, for other assistance dogs.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Not all about blind people unfortunately.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Are you sure?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So I鈥檓 told, Nikki.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 It is in my world. There is also a new fund to support disabled people who want to be politicians get into elected office, which I鈥檝e met quite a few wannabe disabled politicians, and I don鈥檛 think anyone would knock that either.

BSL interpretation, that鈥檚 British Sign Language interpretation, that鈥檚 to be at all major press conferences and briefings. That鈥檚 going to happen from Spring 2024. And we know that there were a whole hoo-ha, rightly, about the lack of BSL interpretation at the big government briefings during the lockdown.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You did a piece on the news on Monday night about the plan. Did people get in touch with you afterwards? What was the reaction like from disabled people? Briefly.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we had a lot of reaction actually. In the piece I was particularly keen on hearing from the voices of the people that I hear from all the time anyway. We know that right now there is a cost of living crisis and that鈥檚 impacting disabled people in many ways. We鈥檝e done it before on the podcast, energy prices, people that need to charge equipment, all of that kind of stuff. We know that employment鈥檚 been an issue that鈥檚 been going on for years, more disabled people want to work and the difficulties around that. We know that there鈥檚 a care crisis, a lot of people can鈥檛 find carers. We know that people with learning disabilities are sometimes inappropriately housed in these awful assessment treatment units. There are really big, big issues that are impacting a lot of disabled people, and I wanted to get that into our report as best we could in the time that we had.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Off the back of the report I notice straightaway, and I know you guys have too, Katie Pennick tweeted 鈥渘othing on transport, nothing on housing, nothing on social care, nothing on PIP, nothing on hate crime, nothing on urban planning, nothing on healthcare, nothing, nothing, nothing鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What you鈥檙e saying is a lot of the feedback, Nikki, was about what wasn鈥檛 isn鈥檛 it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 James, you鈥檙e from disability charity Scope, what鈥檚 Scope鈥檚 reaction been?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 There are some things in it. Whether they鈥檙e the right things, completely debateable. I think if the government鈥檚 goal is to make the UK the most accessible place in the whole world, which is a really laudable aim and I don鈥檛 think anyone would deny that鈥檚 a good goal. However, the actions in the plan don鈥檛 stack up to creating the most accessible country in the whole world. It feels very piecemeal, there鈥檚 no funding behind anything. There are some commitments to do things, but some of them are quite far off in the future. There鈥檚 a really good thing about funding for people who want to seek elected office, that鈥檚 a fund that was scrapped a couple of years ago and is coming back. But it鈥檚 not coming back until next year, after the General Election.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Interesting.

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Then a couple of actions which are more about the Minister will have discussions with people, which don鈥檛 really feel like actions and feel like something the Minister should be doing as part of their day-to-day business anyway. So I think it鈥檚 disappointing. I think the goal is good, but I think what鈥檚 underneath it, and I think if we鈥檙e calling it a pillar I鈥檓 worried that it鈥檚 going to fall down, the action does very little to address the concerns that Nikki鈥檚 talked about from disabled people up and down the UK.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Rachel, let鈥檚 come to you now. You鈥檝e been listening to Nikki and James there, what鈥檚 your reaction as a disability rights campaigner to the plan?

RACHEL-听听听听听 Yeah, pretty much agreeing with what everybody鈥檚 said. The plan in pieces is good and there is some small pieces that are good from it, but from the whole it really just lacks tangible actions that go beyond highlighting or speaking to. Like James says, those are things that should already be happening. In a government that鈥檚 been in power, even though it鈥檚 different forms of government for 14 years, they should already know these things. They can brag all they want about wanting to make it the most accessible place for disabled people, but what鈥檚 that going to count for when disabled people can鈥檛 even survive the winter when they鈥檙e not being given the support to actually be able to get a job or to just live their life on a daily basis?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Because there was something, Emma, in there, about the cost of living, but it was improving understanding of the cost of living for disabled people. It鈥檚 exactly what your guests have just mentioned there, it was the talking not the actual action. Like a social energy tariff, that was going to be a thing and it鈥檚 not a thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And a lot of people are saying, aren鈥檛 they, that there has been enough they feel research on the cost of living.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And when Mims Davies, Disability Minister, announced it in Parliament, not all MPs were impressed with the plan. Here鈥檚 Marion Fellows from the SNP.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Clip from Parliament]

MARION-听听听听听 This Disability Action Plan isn鈥檛 a plan, it鈥檚 a mishmash of short-term policies. Some of the proposals are welcomed and should have been sorted out long ago, others are unclear and simply don鈥檛 address the most pressing concerns of disabled people.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 not happy, Nikki. The government says that it鈥檚 a pillar, it鈥檚 one of the things that they鈥檙e doing for disabled people, and it鈥檚 a short-term plan and it鈥檚 very specific areas. How would you describe the plan?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Well, the Disability Strategy, which I thought may have gone away but it hasn鈥檛, and that is still going to be a thing, we鈥檙e not sure what鈥檚 going to happen with that. I have no dates or anything to give you unfortunately but I am on it like a bonnet, Emma, but I don鈥檛 know. But it is to work alongside that and many other initiatives. It鈥檚 difficult because there was a lot kind of riding on the Action Plan for a lot of disabled people. One of the things that I thought really got people exorcised was the online article which was talking about the rights of assistance dog users, which you鈥檒l know about Ems as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Dogs always get lots of reaction.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Why not?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 People love dogs.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 People are saying it is illegal for any service provider to deny entry to someone with a disability and needs a guide dog anyway. They felt like the plan was kind of making these points, and actually what鈥檚 needed is enforcement. Does that make sense?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah. A lot of the things in the plan are actually about more understanding, and they鈥檙e things that are either around or have been talked about for a long time anyway. Could it be described as a talking shop, James?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 I think there are some tangible things in there. I think the cross-governmental approach is a welcome one. However, I think like we鈥檝e said, there鈥檚 not really much substance. At Scope, and I know lots of other disability charities and disabled people organisations, will push government to go further, and I think we really want to hold them to account on firstly making sure these things happen. But secondly, there鈥檚 now a bit of a confusing situation where we鈥檝e got an Action Plan, a National Disability Strategy bubbling away somewhere, as Nikki said, and we鈥檝e got a White Paper on Disability Benefits, we鈥檝e got a Back to Work Plan, there鈥檚 a Social Care Plan, all impacts on the disabled, but it鈥檚 not really clear how these things link up and join up. And they have to if we鈥檙e going to create the most accessible country in the world. We can鈥檛 have lots of separate pillars, we have to have one really strong foundation.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So, how will they do that then?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Well, I think sort of bringing it back together really and being really clear what is it that government are trying to do, when it is trying to do it by, and what does success look like? I think that鈥檚 what鈥檚 missing from yesterday, some great actions but not much clarity on when it鈥檚 going to happen, and what will it feel like and look like for disabled people?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And Rachel, what do you think they鈥檙e doing? Maybe there鈥檚 some of the cynical people that have been reading it are saying that they鈥檙e putting in this short-term plan just to get votes at the General Election.

RACHEL-听听听听听 That鈥檚 definitely what it feels like, to be honest with you. Because whilst they鈥檙e saying they鈥檙e going to be having all of these talks and they鈥檙e going to be having these discussions and raising awareness, they鈥檙e also at the same time making disabled people the enemy again. They鈥檙e doing things such as in the press and in other policies such as the Back to Work Policy, they鈥檙e making it seem like we don鈥檛 want to work or we are all lazy or lounging on benefits and all of that stuff. So they鈥檙e putting all of the hatred back onto disabled people and then with the other hand going we鈥檙e going to help them, we actually really are doing lots for disabled people. And it鈥檚 like you can鈥檛 say you鈥檙e doing both when disabled people are suffering so much. It鈥檚 you, you鈥檙e the reason that we鈥檙e struggling, you鈥檙e the reason that we don鈥檛 have the support and that hate crime is rising more and more. It鈥檚 not directly because of the government, but when all of these ideologies are coming out it鈥檚 going to affect the way society views us as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 I get so many emails, Emma, from disabled people saying to me I want to work, I want to be able to get up in the morning and live my life, do my thing, whatever it is. That鈥檚 I think more what many people were hoping the Action Plan would do, would improve those parts of their life. We know that people are struggling to find carers. We know the disability employment gap has remained around 30% for as long as I鈥檝e been in the job, well over 10 years. We know the care costs/charges are really difficult for a lot of people. We know that disabled people are struggling with finances at the moment. They鈥檙e the kind of big issues that many disabled people tell me they want to see tackled.

No-one鈥檚 knocking the fact that there may be more accessible playgrounds, that鈥檚 great. The playground I went to they were lovely, it was joyful, it was great. No-one鈥檚 knocking certain things. But especially now there are really huge issues that are really impacting disabled people, and they can鈥檛 do anything about it, it鈥檚 out of a lot of people鈥檚 control, and that鈥檚 what they need to see. And there is no money in this plan.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 interesting, you鈥檙e saying that there is no money in this plan, it鈥檚 all plans to do things after more consultation.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But the government is doing something about the cost of living, isn鈥檛 it? The government is doing something about getting disabled people back to work. There were Private Members鈥� bills but they did bring through the Down Syndrome Act and the BSL Act as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, they did. There are things that they have done. This is what people tell me, there are things that the government have done that are helpful.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Clip from Parliament]

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听 When it comes to wider interventions around energy, for example, tomorrow we鈥檒l see another cost of living payment, there鈥檒l be more support through the Household Support Fund. So I would say to anybody who was worried about their energy costs, if they鈥檙e disabled or indeed have other needs, there is other support out there for them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 James, the 拢1.6 billion allocated for disability stuff is tied up in the Disability Strategy, which the government has told us they will give us more details of in due course. But we don鈥檛 really know a lot about it, do we?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 No. And remember, that figure which was announced with the Strategy a couple of years ago, at the time not new money. It wasn鈥檛 new money then, it鈥檚 not new money now. So I think it鈥檚 really important to be clear that that鈥檚 tied up in programmes, projects, pieces of work that are already ongoing or exist, it鈥檚 not new funding, and I think this is the real challenge. We鈥檝e talked about playgrounds, really great. I think the crux of where this is falling down, in the response to the survey which had 1,300 responses, which is brilliant, 93% of respondents said they think there should be a legal requirement to make new playgrounds or playgrounds that are going under renovations, accessible by law. 93% of the public agreed with that. It was even trailed in the consultation. Government in the plan yesterday said we鈥檙e not going to do that, despite nearly everybody responding saying that鈥檚 a great thing to do. I think that鈥檚 just a real good example of probably how many disabled people and charities like Scope, feel.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 They鈥檙e going to set up an online portal for councils, and they鈥檙e going to have best practice, aren鈥檛 they. But the strategy, the progress of that, we don鈥檛 know about that do we James?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 No, we don鈥檛. We鈥檙e not clear where that鈥檚 gone, and I think at Scope we鈥檙e going to push the Minister on trying to get an update on where that is and how that actually links to the short-term actions that have been announced this week.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And will it happen before the election do you think?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檇 like to think so.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 none the wiser either I鈥檒l be honest, and it鈥檚 my job. It鈥檚 so hard to get the information.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What do you think, Rachel?

RACHEL-听听听听听 I haven鈥檛 got a clue about any of this information.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Rachel, what was your favourite thing in the Action Plan? What was the thing that you saw that you thought actually that鈥檚 a really good thing?

RACHEL-听听听听听 The one good thing that I thought was that they鈥檙e going to put more funding into researching domestic abuse and the reasons behind domestic abuse for disabled people, because that is something that really we are missing. There鈥檚 the stats but they鈥檙e old stats and we need more understanding of that. That was one good thing, but more than anything there was a lot around disabled kids, like the playgrounds and the SEN stuff. But we鈥檝e got to remember that disabled kids hopefully will turn into disabled adults, and there wasn鈥檛 enough for disabled adults and helping them thrive to get to that stage.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Interesting. There鈥檚 a lot about consultation. The appeal about the strategy was that it wasn鈥檛 consulted on properly. This plan mentions consultation, user panels, working groups, consultation, a lot. Do you think the government has taken something from Doug Paulley鈥檚 legal action and the appeal?

RACHEL-听听听听听 I think more than anything they want to appear like they鈥檝e taken something from it, and they want it to look like they鈥檙e trying to listen to disabled people as much as possible. But whether they actually do listen to disabled people is a complete different matter, because we鈥檝e been shouting about these things for so long. It鈥檚 great that the BSL stuff鈥檚 coming, but that鈥檚 taken four years of people shouting about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Nikki, what do you think? The government seems to be going in hard on the fact that they have consulted disabled people and their families and are continuing to do so by setting up the user experience panels and the working groups to bring actions forward.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 I did look out for that when the Action Plan came through on email yesterday, and I think it鈥檚 one of the first things that you read in the foreword or something where they clearly spell out that they consulted with more than 1,300 disabled people, their families and disability groups. They鈥檝e got to because that was the big problem. Legal shenanigans aside, that was an issue last time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What are your final thoughts then, Nikki, on the plan?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 just interesting for me as a journalist to look out for the reaction when something like this is announced, and social media鈥檚 been a fascinating place for me actually. I think if I was to summarise, and I think your guests Rachel and James have done this brilliantly as well, no-one鈥檚 knocking the good parts, and there are some good parts in the plan from what disabled people tell me. I just have had that overwhelming feeling on social media and people that have contacted me, that it鈥檚 just not enough, that right now is a tricky time to be disabled. It can be difficult for everyone at all times, but right now disabled people have got a lot going on, and the focus on the really big issues that many tell me that does need money. Local authorities are stretched, some of these problems it鈥檚 going to be difficult to find a solution. That鈥檚 what a lot of disabled people wanted to see with this plan and didn鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 They wanted to see more money in solutions.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. As James said, Mims Davies the Minister, was very much saying that she wants it to have a real transformational impact on the lives of disabled people, and she wants the UK to be the best place to live, worth and thrive if you鈥檙e disabled. That鈥檚 great and that鈥檚 great that that鈥檚 there on top of their agenda, but the plan really needs to make a difference to the lives of many disabled people who are struggling at the moment.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 James, what are your final thoughts?

JAMES-听听听听听听听听 Echo everything Nikki has said. I think it鈥檚 some good things, some things that need to go much further. Thinking way back to the last election, there was a big commitment to tackle the employment gap, watered down from the National Disability Strategy, that was then watered down into the Disability Action Plan. So we鈥檙e still left with these huge societal issues that I don鈥檛 think government have really got a grip of. And it鈥檚 a shame, because if they do we will unlock so much potential of the 60 million people in this country, bring so much more money into the economy, and make society a much better place for everyone, and I think that鈥檚 the bit that鈥檚 missing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Rachel, unlocking potential?

RACHEL-听听听听听 Yeah. I mean there鈥檚 a lot of potential that could be unlocked, but more than anything we just need to be given the tools and to be given the support that means we鈥檙e going to be able to survive, and beyond survive, actually thriving. Because it鈥檚 great that we have got this employability and this economic pull, but if we can鈥檛 literally be allowed to just live our lives and be given the support to be able to live and to be able to work and thrive, then what鈥檚 the point?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 I would add very quickly that I was listening to Mims Davies, the Minister鈥檚 interview, because she did a quick interview for us for the piece, and I was listening to it back today, and she did mention in her interview about wanting disabled people to live and work and thrive and all of those kind of things, but she was clear to also say and to support people who can鈥檛. Now she did use that awful 鈥渧鈥� word which we won鈥檛 go... I wish they鈥檇 stop with the 鈥渧鈥� word.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The vulnerable word.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Sorry, I said it. Yes, I said it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 You said it and you promised me you鈥檇 never do that.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Clip]

MIMS-听听听听听听听听听听 A huge body of work which will make sure this country is the best place to be a disabled person, whether you鈥檙e an entrepreneur like the Lilac Review that we announced just last week, or indeed if you want to get into work, or you鈥檙e most vulnerable and you need to be protected. I鈥檓 absolutely determined whatever situation or need you have, this country will be the right place for you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 I know she did mention that word, but she did make a point of saying that. I always look out for that because I鈥檓 kind of mindful, because again I get messages and I speak to people who are like, 鈥淎hh鈥�. It鈥檚 kind of a scary place to be when you can鈥檛 do the things that the government wants you to do like work. It鈥檚 hard. Some people can鈥檛, and they need to be supported, and she did make a point of that in her interview.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And can鈥檛 articulate that they can鈥檛, can鈥檛 say that they can鈥檛, can鈥檛 tell the government I cannot work.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Exactly. And if they don鈥檛 have the support around them to articulate that for them either. These people need to be thought of really very much so at the forefront of whoever is running the shop鈥檚 mind. But she did mention that in the interview. Didn鈥檛 make it on the old box but she did mention that in the interview, which I always look out for that, I鈥檓 particularly mindful of that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Everybody, thank you so much Rachel Charlton-Dailey, James Taylor, and thank you to our Disability Correspondent, Nikki Fox. And Nikki, you鈥檙e going to keep coming back onto the podcast, aren鈥檛 you, when big disability stories arise.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听 Emma Tracey, you cannot keep me away from you, I will be back.

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EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You can get in contact with us, you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can go onto X, formerly known as Twitter, and we鈥檙e @bbcaccessall there. See you next week, bye.

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