TRANSCRIPT
William Hague - leader of the Conservative Party -
and John Humphrys
John Humphrys
William Hague has only a few months at best to persuade the nation that he's a Prime Minister in waiting. That's quite a task, that is, that you believe the election is going to be held in the Spring, and assuming that you believe the opinion polls which say that Mr Hague has about as much chance of winning as he does of sprouting wings. Apart from one brief blip last year, the polls show that his party has such little support there would be another landslide. His own personal ratings are even worse. And it doesn't seem to matter what misfortunes befall the Government, the polls don't budge, and if they do they budge in the wrong direction - downwards. But Mr Hague seems undaunted and his big idea seems to be to promise lower taxes under a Conservative government than a Labour one. More cuts are being promised today, including a tax break for some married couples. The Government unsurprisingly is not impressed. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury is Andrew Smith.
Andrew Smith
Today's measures would be of absolutely no benefit to 80 per cent of married couples and they're unfair because the Tories are penalising children in certain families. Six million out of the seven and a half families with children, wouldn't benefit at all.
John Humphrys
Well, William Hague is on the line, good morning Mr Hague.
William Hague:
Good morning.
John Humphrys
That's true isn't it?
William Hague
No, not at all. This is a very clear proposal. Married Couples Allowance, which would allow people to transfer their tax allowance when one of them is at home looking after children under 11 or an elderly relative, obviously that would be of help to a huge number of people. Obviously it doesn't help everyone who is married but it helps those at the time when they most need help and when their budget is particularly tight. It is giving those people some of their money back which was taken from them by Labour stealth taxes.
John Humphrys
What makes you think that money is particularly tight when kids are under 11? That doesn't stop it being tight when they reach 12, 13, 14, 15. It gets more tight in a way. They need to spend more on trainers and things.
William Hague
Well, that is when people have a lot of expenses when they have young children. Everybody knows that. It's not a new thought. There are other parts of our tax and social security system which help people with young children and that is quite right.
John Humphrys
Yep, but it isn't what you promised is it? Let me read you an email that came in this morning from one of our listeners, a Mr Bradshaw from Banbury. He says "we lost our Married Couples Allowance, worth about £500 a year, because my birthday fell a few days after Gordon Brown's cut off date". Here's the important bit: "I got a letter from Michael Portillo, a sympathetic letter dated 6 November 2000" last year "stating without qualification" and he puts this in quotes "" the Conservative Party will have a manifesto commitment to re-introduce a Married Couples Allowance for all"". What happened to that?
William Hague
Well, we are re-introducing a Married Couples Allowance but …
John Humphrys
But not for all, a very small proportion …
William Hague
But our tax proposals have to be clearly costed and we have to be clearly able to pay for them. We've set out eight billion changes in government spending and we've already announced how we'd cut taxes for people with savings, for pensioners, and one million pensioners will be taken out of taxation altogether. So we've already made those announcements. But they must be affordable. And we think that the right way to use the money we have available to help married couples is in this way, when they do have a lot of expenses, when they are trying to bring up children and where there is often pressure - the woman may feel under pressure - the woman may feel under pressure - it can be the man at times - to go out to work when they would rather me at home looking after their …
John Humphrys
So you've reneged on the promise to have a Married Couples Allowance for all.
William Hague
No, we're saying here what our priorities are. How to use eight billion pounds of tax reductions.
John Humphrys
Which you may or may not get of course. No one believes that you can get eight billion pounds of reductions on the basis you've spelled out.
William Hague
I think they do actually. I think …
John Humphrys
The IFS doesn't …
William Hague
Many commentators do. The Government spends £12,000 every second. And are they credibly saying to us that none of that money can ever be saved. No money can ever be given back to all the people who've had to pay so much more for their petrol, their pension, their marriage, their mortgage, and other taxes under this Government. The truth is that some of it can be given back to them and these are effective ways of doing it.
John Humphrys
Well not according to people like the Institute of Fiscal Studies, who look at these things very carefully, who are not parti pris, they are just as critical of the Labour Party as they are of your lot and they say it can't be done. A lot of the things you say you promise simply cannot be delivered.
William Hague
They clearly can be delivered. When we say that we will run Whitehall and the whole machinery of government for £1.8bn less - we were doing it three years ago - you don't have to look into a crystal ball - you can read the book. Things don't change. Are people receiving a better service from Government departments today than three and a half years ago? No of course they're not, but there are thousands of more civil servants and the cost has gone up by nearly £2bn.
John Humphrys
I tell you what does change and that's your policies. I don't know whether you're going to change this latest one because just looking down the list this morning of all the things you've done U-turns on, your pensions policy, minimum wage, drugs policy, Bank of England, tax guarantees, an awfully long list. How long is this one going to last?
William Hague
We're now setting out our policies for the Election. They're very clear. I know other parties don't like them but that's because people across the country do like them. These are the policies which will be in our Election Manifesto. They will help people with savings. They will help people with pensions, they will help married couples bringing up children. These are all people who have been clobbered under the Labour Party and it's time they had some help.
John Humphrys
You can understand why some people might say "will they stick". Your pensions policy is the latest one to change. That's only a week or so ago. You changed your mind on the minimum wage, you changed your mind on the Bank of England, your tax guarantees, you can understand why some people are saying "what's going on with the Tory Party?".
William Hague
Many of these things remember have changed over the last four years. Bank of England independence has been introduced. The minimum wage has been introduced …
John Humphrys
… which you opposed …
William Hague
Parties do have to update their policies …
John Humphrys
That's one way of putting it.
William Hague
If parties aren't allowed to change their policies when events happen in government, then Tony Blair would never be allowed to open his mouth about any policy at all.
John Humphrys
But you've changed policies which you yourself as leader introduced within the last year or so.
William Hague
No, we have developed those policies, we have expanded those policies.
John Humphrys
Come on, developed, changed …
William Hague
We said we would reduce taxes, we are now spelling out how we'd reduce taxes. We haven't changed the direction of our policy at all. We believe that people in this country are paying too much in tax, that it is possible to save money and under Labour they're going to get higher and higher taxes. Under a Conservative Government you get lower taxes and in these specific ways.
John Humphrys
Even if this sticks and even if the other policies stick, and even if you make your £8bn of cuts, it's all pretty timid stuff isn't it. I mean £8bn even if it goes through in the way you describe it is what two per cent of government spending. What you have effectively done in opposition is this, you've looked at this Government and seen how popular and indeed how successful it is in terms of managing the economy and you've said "we can't do it very much different so we'll tinker at the edges", because you don't have an ideology any longer.
William Hague
You can't have it both ways. You can't say these changes in government spending and taxation are so radical that they're not attainable …
John Humphrys
I wouldn't say that.
William Hague
What's the thrust of your question?
John Humphrys
People doubt where you could save that money.
William Hague
That's another question that's it's so timid, it's a tiny amount. The truth is that it's a realistic amount. The truth is that the Government are increasing government spending, spending tax payers' money faster than the growth in our national economy, that is unsustainable in the long term. We would plot a course for government spending that is within the growth of our economy as a whole. Our £8bn of changes allow us to do that. And it is a different direction of policy because …
John Humphrys
Ah, well but it isn't, that's the point. It isn't really a different direction.
William Hague
It is entirely a direction of policy. Taxes will go up under Labour, taxes will come down under the Conservatives. You can't have a clearer difference in direction than that.
John Humphrys
If you were a truly radical Conservative Party still with a clearer ideology, which you haven't. Michael Portillo said so on the programme the other day, that you're not an ideological party any longer. If you were you'd say "Government spending is too high, give people their money back" - that's what parties like yours used to say.
William Hague
We're not claiming to have an ideology. But we are saying to the Government that government spending, that the course of government spending is unsustainable and that we do want to give people their money back. We do that because we're entirely practical about the best way for this country to succeed in the world. America is reducing taxes, Germany is reducing taxes, the French are reducing their taxes and in Britain we have the Labour Government swimming against that tide, increasing taxes, which damages this country's ability to compete in the long term as well as absolutely clobbering a lot of families hard working families and savers across the country who need that money.
John Humphrys
When did you lose your ideology, because Mrs Thatcher had one and you were a great fan of Mrs Thatcher.
William Hague
Well, that's for other people to comment on. The Conservative Party is not based on ideology …
John Humphrys
Why not?
William Hague
… it is based on doing what is best for millions of people in this country, for encouraging independence, for encouraging people who work hard and save hard and believe in their country. And you may want to call that an ideology or not but I call it straightforward, practical, good commonsense and that's what our latest tax proposals are as well.
John Humphrys
Yes, but the reason I return to the word is because you used to be very proud, the Conservative Party, used to be very proud of its ideology and what it said constantly was "we believe government takes too much from the people, we want to give them some of it back". Now you're proposing to cut spending by £8bn, a figure which many believe is not credible anyway, but it is two per cent, two per cent, even if you achieve it of total government spend, if that isn't timid, heaven knows what is.
William Hague
Well, thank you for illustrating how practical this proposal is …
John Humphrys
(laughs) so that you accept that it's timid?
William Hague
… everybody knows that you can spend a future government budget and as I say critics of this cannot have it both ways and we've been very prudent, we've set out a clear programme. All the £8bn of changes are clearly costed and set out and £8bn is a huge amount of money with which to help people who've been clobbered and it's to help people who've been hit hardest by Labour stealth taxes.
John Humphrys
But your timidity is re-inforced by this proposal today isn't it. It is not a Married Couples Allowance for all, it is a Married Couples Allowance for a very, very small number of people who qualify.
William Hague
No, it's to help people who have responsibilities, who take responsibility for themselves and their families, utterly ignored, and abandoned and penalised by the Labour Party and in line with our proposals to help savers, to help pensioners, people who have responsibilities, who've tried to save, to do the best for their families, those people should be helped and supported by the state, not stamped upon all the time.
John Humphrys
William Hague, thank you very much.
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Please Note:
This transcript was typed from an on-air broadcast and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ cannot vouch for its accuracy.
