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You and Yours聽- Transcript 成人论坛 Radio 4 |
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TX: 08.02.05 - Legacies PRESENTER: JOHN WAITE |
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Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人论坛 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. WAITE Last week we reported on the story of Clare Lee, who was very unhappy with the way that the Royal National Institute of the Blind pursued a legacy in her aunt's will. The old lady, Mrs Marion Fisher, left 拢20,000 to the RNIB, but Clare, as lay executor, couldn't hand over the charity money until she'd sold off her aunt's home. Now that proved a problem, as two sales fell through. Six months after Mrs Fisher's death the RNIB, along with a number of other beneficiaries, wrote to Clare offering condolences and to let her know that they would be expecting a cheque in due course. But then, five months later, the Royal Institute sent another letter to Clare. LEE "Unfortunately the executor's year will expire on the 15th January 2005, at which point statutory interest will become payable on this legacy. The rate that statutory interest is charged at currently stands at 4% per annum. I am sure you will appreciate that as a charity we will have no alternative but to request payment of this additional sum." I went into work the next day, and I work for some solicitors, and I asked whether that was true, that if they could do it, and they said yes they could do it but it was discretionary and I felt that maybe they needn't charge it, if they didn't want to. WAITE Yes, they were threatening to charge her interest for not paying up and not surprisingly perhaps Clare was upset, as were many of you, when you heard what happened. Some of you said you'd refuse to donate money to the RNIB until the organisation renounced this policy, which was something its chief executive, Lesley-Anne Alexander, refused to do last week. ALEXANDER Mrs Lee has only read to you one paragraph of the letter and the rest of the letter really is much more gentle, it points out to Mrs Lee the obligation that as a charity we are entitled to charge. I think what's missing in all of this is the fact that Mrs Fisher left this money to RNIB in order that we can carry out her wishes. She clearly was a long time supporter of RNIB, she supported us during her life, as well as in her will. It wouldn't be possible for us to carry out the vital work that we do for blind and partially sighted people without the money that we're given or left. WAITE Lesley-Anne Alexander, chief executive of the Royal National Institute of the Blind. Well following our report the two major organisations which train and represent staff working in charity legacy departments have announced that they're urgently changing their codes of conduct and training to improve their dealings with lay executors like Clare Lee. Collette Hume reported this story last week and she's with me. Collette, just remind us how do charities get to know that they're expecting a legacy? HUME This was a question lots of people asked and the simple answer is that once a will goes through probate it's published and anyone can read it. Think of the really good example, when Princess Diana died we could all read the contents of her will. Now there are charities who make it their job to read wills and to let charities know if they've been mentioned. The biggest company says it reads 5,000 wills every week. Now it's worth pointing out that of course the RNIB was legally entitled to charge the interest from the first anniversary of Mrs Fisher's death. That comes from a 1925 Administration of Estates Act and it says that beneficiaries can charge 4% per annum, they are legally entitled to do that. And in the last year the RNIB says it's written to executors about statutory interest on six occasions. WAITE But what looked to many of our listeners certainly like a heavy-handed approach here has backfired hasn't it. HUME Well last week the RNIB's press office told me that future bequests, to the value of 拢250,000 had already been withdrawn because of this story. Now since then we have asked them for an update on the current situation but we're still awaiting their response. However, we have found that lots of people have been affected, even the actor Simon Callow, who you'll remember from Four Weddings and a Funeral, he's found himself at the sharp end of charity legacy managers. Now sadly John he wasn't able to come in to tell his story himself because he's writing a new book and he's got a deadline but when I spoke to him on the phone he said that when his elderly aunt died he became the executor of her will. Three animal charities were involved and they wouldn't allow her house to be sold to the person she wanted to sell it to because the charities thought they could get even more for it on the open market. Seventeen months after his aunt's death the house is still on the market and he's told me he's absolutely furious about the whole thing. WAITE Now of course legacies are very important to all charities. HUME Absolutely, they're worth an incredible amount of money, we're talking between 拢1.2 and 拢1.3 billion every year. What's also clear though is that it's such an incredibly competitive marketplace out there and charities are really under enormous pressure to bring in as much revenue as they can and as quickly as they can. WAITE Thanks Collette. Well as I said earlier the Institute of Fundraising, which represents charity fundraisers, says it'll be issuing a guide to best practice in dealing with lay executors, while the Institute of Legacy Management is reviewing both its training courses and its qualifications. And I'm delighted to say Crispin Ellison from the institute is with us. Mr Ellison, you had a meeting of legacy managers following our coverage of this story last week, what was said? ELLISON Well good morning John. We've decided to review all the courses that we run for charity legacy officers, that's whether it's short day courses or right through to our six month distance learning course. So we are working very quickly now to make sure that within those courses we stress the balance that needs to be gained between the legal obligations that there are on the charity and the discretion that we may be able to use. WAITE And what does your organisation make of the approach taken by the RNIB in striking this balance, it clearly wasn't the right balance for Clare Lee? ELLISON It wasn't the right balance for Clare Lee and clearly she's extremely upset and I've been reading this morning some of the other feedback from listeners who have also been very upset. I have to say that we do need to get this balance right, clearly charities are not - from the feedback that I've read. But I would also say that these are isolated cases out of the many, many thousands of estates from which we are happy and very grateful to benefit. WAITE Yeah but as you know, because we did show you the e-mails, I mean they're almost unanimously from individual listeners, we got a few from legacy managers, but from individual listeners contacted the programme to tell us about their experiences at the hands of charity legacy departments and many had very bad experiences. Do you think your organisation will be able to get the message across, you know, that people do feel roughly treated, in some cases - cases where they're handing out large sums of money to charities? ELLISON Absolutely. As I said not only are we modifying all the courses that we put on throughout the year, we have an annual meeting, for instance, in May and the main focus of that is now going to be this very subject. WAITE Now I know the money is crucial to the work of charities but take the case there of Simon Callow - and I won't ask you to comment on that case - but his aunt wanted to leave that house to somebody and she wasn't allowed to, or at least the charities that were going to benefit from the sale wouldn't allow it to be sold to that person. Seventeen months later the house is unsold, he's furious, the attitude basically that comes over often is almost grasping and that's an odd sort of an attitude for a charity. ELLISON Yes I don't think that - well I'm sorry if it does come across as grasping and certainly that particular matter, that particular case is extremely regrettable. We are in a difficult position, as charity legacy officers we do have to balance the legal obligations that are on us as charities. We are in a different though from private individuals, we can't simply disclaim things in the way that private individuals, for instance, could. In the matter of where there are assets in an estate where a charity receives a share of the residue then the charity is - has a requirement on it to check that those assets are being sold for full value. Now of course I can't comment, I don't know in fact the particular circumstances of that case, but it is appropriate for charities as residuary beneficiaries or indeed any residuary beneficiary to say well is that property, is that item - that painting, whatever it is - being sold for its proper value? WAITE There we'll have to leave it, Crispin Ellison from the Institute of Legacy Management, thank you very much indeed. Back to the You and Yours homepage The 成人论坛 is not responsible for external websites |
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