Should Wikileaks make a difference to your views on the Iraq war?
|
Monday, 10 Oct. 2010
|18:00 - 19:00 GMT
The 'forgotten war' is back on the front pages.
The whistle-blowing website Wikileaks has released 400,000 army documents relating to the conflict in Iraq. The documents reveal details of civilian deaths and prisoner abuse, and suggest that the US ignored evidence of torture by Iraqi authorities.
So much for Western Â'civilised' values writes Stephen Glover,
'The Iraq war was fought in the name of Âcivilised values and Âcommon decency. The British and Americans presented themselves as the good guys, bringing Âdemocracy and the rule of law and Âhumanity to a Âdysfunctional country ruled by a lunatic Âgenocidal tyrant...If this neat contrast between good and evil has already worn pretty thin in the seven-and-a-half years since the invasion of Iraq, it has now finally been blown apart by a massive leak of nearly 400,000 official ÂAmerican military 'field reports' by WikiLeaks.'
For Andrew J. Bacevich the documents have emerged too late to make a difference,
'As far as Americans are concerned, the Iraq war is over, done, finished. We've turned the page, changed the channel, tied up the odd loose end, inserted the last punctuation mark, and moved on.'
The Iraqi media seem equally as disinterested but the conversation is already underway on our Facebook page, where Halima writes,
'Too long have the powers that be thought they could do whatever they wanted with an underlying assumption that they are the "good guys" even when clearly they have not always been. ...I like the idea that behaviour of the most powerful is now answerable to international scrutiny.' Michael in Wisconsin isn't convinced by the reports,
'War is hell, and as far as war goes, Iraq and Afghanistan have been extremely tame, mostly due to the fact that the soldier has one hand tied behind his back and needs to take his lawyer with him to the war zone to avoid any implications of impropriety while trying not to die.'
Jacob Shapiro Assistant Professor of Politics and International Affairs at Princeton University believes that we shouldn't be quick to judge the documents; the database is selective and could be missing a bigger picture.
And the Telegraph finds some empathy for the soldiers on the front line, but little for politicians who sent them there.
'Some of the most painful instances published, indeed, in which Iraqi civilians have been killed at US checkpoints, are also horribly understandable: when frightened soldiers - alert to potential suicide bombers - encounter terrified civilians in a fog of barked commands and misunderstandings, a tragic outcome can become almost inevitable...A very different standard applies, however, to those who sent them there, and drew up the codes by which they were required to operate... If morality is difficult to preserve in war, it was then made significantly more so by the failure of George Bush and Tony Blair to put in place any comprehensive plan for the governance of Iraq after the invasion. That was not a forgivable error, but a fundamental one.'
Robert Grenier a retired, veteran of the CIA's Clandestine Service stands by the troops - this was war.
'There is more than a little irony in the fact that it is precisely those who are most likely to characterize the US military presence in Iraq as an unwanted military occupation, trampling on the sovereign rights of Iraqis, who in this instance suggest that US military personnel should have behaved like colonialists. In dealing with an Iraqi system in which abuses by security forces were rampant at all levels, what were US forces to do, practically speaking? Should they have taken over every suspect police station? Should they have indicted and tried those suspected of prisoner abuse? In whose courts?'
Your comments
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18:53
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Noodlesnrice tweets Italy's People of Freedom party, seem to have a strange definition of 'freedom'
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18:53
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Ladu in Sudan posts on our Facebook page - Italy, you have my blessing ! Go ahead and get rid of this unethical mode of dressing and other countries should also emulate this move!
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18:52
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Jamey in Ohio emailed World Have Your Say - Really, banning mini skirts to curb anti-social behavior? I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. The problem is not the length of my skirt or how much skin is showing. The problem is people acting without respect towards one another.
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18:44
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On air talking about whether an Italian seaside town should ban the miniskirt in order to improve decency.
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18:47
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Agata in Germany emails - I think every war triggers the worst instincts in a human being. Being cynical, nothing should surprise us about what's going on there.
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18:46
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Jesse in Texas emailed World Have Your Say - Wikileaks will change no one's opinion about the war. Those who have always opposed the war will find support for their position. Those who believe that the U.S. coalition acted in good faith given Saddam Hussein's bluff will not have their opinion changed.
Comment sent via Facebook
18:22
113631290
Peter writes on facebook - These are actual records of atrocities committed by US and UK forces, by the perpetrators themselves. Now where is Moreno-Ocampo of the ICC? There are war crimes and crimes against humanity in these pages.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
18:21
113631290
Alex from Canada sent us an email - I think that it really shouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone seems to know that the war was started on questionable terms, however after it started, decisions made and things that happen in real time shouldn't be necessarily judged in hindsight.
Comment sent via Facebook
18:18
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Craig in Jamaica on Facebook - I don't hear anyone questioning the validity of the claims made in these leaks, im not saying they are not true in just say where the proof for this "proof?"
Comment sent via YOURSAY
18:17
113631290
Maaz posts on Have Your Say - It is so easy for some to say "So what! it is the reality of war". I urge people of such opinion, not to be so naive. All civilised countries whether they are developed or developing nations have laws for such situations. If we in the west truly believe that our way of life is superior, then we must prove this time and time again.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
18:14
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Lawrence emailed World Have Your Say - As an American I am glad to see these reports released. Regardless of the picture they paint, as Americans we should be allowed to know about all of this. Good or bad, it makes our military more transparent.
Comment sent via SMS
18:00
108567876
I demand the urgent formation of an international tribunal to try all of those people who’ve been proven to have innocent Iraqi blood on their hands regardless of their nationalities. Enough with the compromises & indifference already! Our victims do deserve justice, & justice has to be served. Lubna
Comment sent via SMS
18:08
108513545
There is so much sleaze, untruth and subterfuge in all dealings in Iraq/Afghanistan, that perhaps the best thing is to shine a glaring spotlight on all of it, and let vision decide where honour is. Banks, amsterdam
Should Wikileaks make a difference to your views on the Iraq war?
| Monday, 10 Oct. 2010 | 18:00 - 19:00 GMT
The 'forgotten war' is back on the front pages.
The whistle-blowing website Wikileaks has released 400,000 army documents relating to the conflict in Iraq. The documents reveal details of civilian deaths and prisoner abuse, and suggest that the US ignored evidence of torture by Iraqi authorities.
So much for Western Â'civilised' values writes Stephen Glover,
'The Iraq war was fought in the name of Âcivilised values and Âcommon decency. The British and Americans presented themselves as the good guys, bringing Âdemocracy and the rule of law and Âhumanity to a Âdysfunctional country ruled by a lunatic Âgenocidal tyrant...If this neat contrast between good and evil has already worn pretty thin in the seven-and-a-half years since the invasion of Iraq, it has now finally been blown apart by a massive leak of nearly 400,000 official ÂAmerican military 'field reports' by WikiLeaks.'
For Andrew J. Bacevich the documents have emerged too late to make a difference,
'As far as Americans are concerned, the Iraq war is over, done, finished. We've turned the page, changed the channel, tied up the odd loose end, inserted the last punctuation mark, and moved on.'
The Iraqi media seem equally as disinterested but the conversation is already underway on our Facebook page, where Halima writes,
'Too long have the powers that be thought they could do whatever they wanted with an underlying assumption that they are the "good guys" even when clearly they have not always been. ...I like the idea that behaviour of the most powerful is now answerable to international scrutiny.' Michael in Wisconsin isn't convinced by the reports,
'War is hell, and as far as war goes, Iraq and Afghanistan have been extremely tame, mostly due to the fact that the soldier has one hand tied behind his back and needs to take his lawyer with him to the war zone to avoid any implications of impropriety while trying not to die.'
Jacob Shapiro Assistant Professor of Politics and International Affairs at Princeton University believes that we shouldn't be quick to judge the documents; the database is selective and could be missing a bigger picture.
And the Telegraph finds some empathy for the soldiers on the front line, but little for politicians who sent them there.
'Some of the most painful instances published, indeed, in which Iraqi civilians have been killed at US checkpoints, are also horribly understandable: when frightened soldiers - alert to potential suicide bombers - encounter terrified civilians in a fog of barked commands and misunderstandings, a tragic outcome can become almost inevitable...A very different standard applies, however, to those who sent them there, and drew up the codes by which they were required to operate... If morality is difficult to preserve in war, it was then made significantly more so by the failure of George Bush and Tony Blair to put in place any comprehensive plan for the governance of Iraq after the invasion. That was not a forgivable error, but a fundamental one.'
Robert Grenier a retired, veteran of the CIA's Clandestine Service stands by the troops - this was war.
'There is more than a little irony in the fact that it is precisely those who are most likely to characterize the US military presence in Iraq as an unwanted military occupation, trampling on the sovereign rights of Iraqis, who in this instance suggest that US military personnel should have behaved like colonialists. In dealing with an Iraqi system in which abuses by security forces were rampant at all levels, what were US forces to do, practically speaking? Should they have taken over every suspect police station? Should they have indicted and tried those suspected of prisoner abuse? In whose courts?'
Your comments
Comment sent via Feed
Noodlesnrice tweets Italy's People of Freedom party, seem to have a strange definition of 'freedom'
Comment sent via Facebook
Ladu in Sudan posts on our Facebook page - Italy, you have my blessing ! Go ahead and get rid of this unethical mode of dressing and other countries should also emulate this move!
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Jamey in Ohio emailed World Have Your Say - Really, banning mini skirts to curb anti-social behavior? I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life. The problem is not the length of my skirt or how much skin is showing. The problem is people acting without respect towards one another.
Comment sent via host
On air talking about whether an Italian seaside town should ban the miniskirt in order to improve decency.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Agata in Germany emails - I think every war triggers the worst instincts in a human being. Being cynical, nothing should surprise us about what's going on there.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Jesse in Texas emailed World Have Your Say - Wikileaks will change no one's opinion about the war. Those who have always opposed the war will find support for their position. Those who believe that the U.S. coalition acted in good faith given Saddam Hussein's bluff will not have their opinion changed.
Comment sent via Facebook
Peter writes on facebook - These are actual records of atrocities committed by US and UK forces, by the perpetrators themselves. Now where is Moreno-Ocampo of the ICC? There are war crimes and crimes against humanity in these pages.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Alex from Canada sent us an email - I think that it really shouldn't make a huge difference. Everyone seems to know that the war was started on questionable terms, however after it started, decisions made and things that happen in real time shouldn't be necessarily judged in hindsight.
Comment sent via Facebook
Craig in Jamaica on Facebook - I don't hear anyone questioning the validity of the claims made in these leaks, im not saying they are not true in just say where the proof for this "proof?"
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Maaz posts on Have Your Say - It is so easy for some to say "So what! it is the reality of war". I urge people of such opinion, not to be so naive. All civilised countries whether they are developed or developing nations have laws for such situations. If we in the west truly believe that our way of life is superior, then we must prove this time and time again.
Comment sent via YOURSAY
Lawrence emailed World Have Your Say - As an American I am glad to see these reports released. Regardless of the picture they paint, as Americans we should be allowed to know about all of this. Good or bad, it makes our military more transparent.
Comment sent via SMS
I demand the urgent formation of an international tribunal to try all of those people who’ve been proven to have innocent Iraqi blood on their hands regardless of their nationalities. Enough with the compromises & indifference already! Our victims do deserve justice, & justice has to be served. Lubna
Comment sent via SMS
There is so much sleaze, untruth and subterfuge in all dealings in Iraq/Afghanistan, that perhaps the best thing is to shine a glaring spotlight on all of it, and let vision decide where honour is. Banks, amsterdam