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Is Conformism Killing Music?
I look around me and the Desi music industry is full of sheep...WHY? Where is our Bob Marley, Our Beatles, Our Biggie or Tupac for gods sake!!
What do you think? When I'm in love with my roots and desi culture its the greatest feeling on earth - But other times my roots and culture make me angry - to be exact its the Conformism in desi culture that gets my creative blood boiled.
I meet producers, artists, etc all the time and they name check artists famous for being innovative, looking different, creating new ways of doing music and cite them as hero's....then when I look at their own art I am struck by how conservative it is and how sheep like they are in their own endeavors...it does my head in!!!
One only has to look at 90% of Bollywood to see that desi culture and art is mostly (not exclusively) about following and NOT bucking the trend....Damn most Bhangra producers look up to original artists then come out with an album which sounds like the other 99% of albums out that year (they even rerecord the same songs again!) and make videos without an ounce of creativity......(or worse - videos that look good but were done first in the non-desi world in the early nineties!)..
..What is it??? Is it just us? Do our roots and culture make us conformist sheep??? I am slowly coming to the conclusion that YES it is exactly that....someone help me please I'm having a periodic cynical depressive attack on the very music and people I have dedicated my life to since I was fifteen...(Boo Hoo)
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Post your commentI think your partially right. However, i have a number of friends/associates in the music industry and the notion seems that it's all about making money!! 99% of these "artists" only produce what they think will make them money!! Creative and original music/lyrics take a lower priority than revenue matters.
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Friction: You are not the only one with the same complaints. The same thing happens in US Latin Music. It is the money but we are gradually fighting back. There are now emerging US Latin TV Stations such as America Teve and Mega TV that are bringing raw, new talent in US Latin music instead of the take away music [the artists that have no talent but have the money and connections]. You, Kayper, Nihal, and Pathaan deserve all of the praise from this listener in Miami Florida for spreading original and raw music. Roberto
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Biggup to you, Friction.
There is no point self-flagellating. Its time we just do it man. I don't think it is as much conformism thats the problem as lack of professionalism and lack of attitude needed to perfect the sound. We need more ambition, more chutzpah, more balls - kill it man.
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Friction - one more thing. We need to experiment with different instrumentation. I would love to see bhangra musicians using classical western instruments. Bagpipes and Bhangra would be cool. What would be super would be an Opera-Bhangra mix.
Its time we went beyond the obvious.
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I agree with 'The Poet', I think that with globalization these artists have found new ways to generate money but sooner or later they will find out that it is not going to work longer. They will be forced to innovate and create something fresh. Till then lets dig up some oldies. What you say?
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I feel your pain Bobby!
I have a few friends that have made music, some which have even featured on your show!...but its all derivative of US Hip - Hop and rnB, no real ORIGINAL voice of there own. Sure enough a lot off the music that you and Nihal play on your shows is aimed at a particular market ...RNB pop/bhangra, so you can expect the artist to be mianstream. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt be producing brand new innovative music, that can be popular and fresh at the same time. But it really dawned on me when i asked some off my music producer friends the type of music they had listened too as inspiration...and none of them mentioned the Beatles, The Doors, Marvin Gaye, Prince, Nusrat...Klashnekoff..etc..,infact nothing different from the usual...timbaland...g-UNIT...us led rnb stuff.
It really makes me squirm when i see /listen to Nihal interviewing the likes of Jay Sean and Rish r...bigging them up..when they themselves know...they are truly wack!..i know you have to support the Asian scene...but please have some integrity!
s
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It's not only Bhangra mate. It's huge in Hip Hop as well.
Let me put it like this... It's easier 2 follow a trend that seems to sell, artists are comforted knowing that what they make will sell. Why? Purely because it's a tried and tested format.
Producers in the Bhangra industry are all talk. They are too afraid to be themselves. As Jay-Z once said "Be you, Why be them? How can you be afraid to be you?".
Me, personally when i make music i try to be different but in order to be accepted you have to conform to current trends i.e. commercial appeal. Not everyone is like you Bobby, you are one of a few who are actually open to new things especially when it's comes to new artists and fresh music. It's not even about the beats... It's the lyrical content as well.
I've kinda gone off topic by talking about my music which is Hip hop. Personally have no love for Bhangra anymore and i've felt that way since early 2004. I don't listen to any Bhangra, there are no artists that excite me and make me listen.
Anyways thats about it from me.
Kang
www.faithlessproductions.com
www.myspace.com/faithlessproductions
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I feel u bobby thats y u need to play me more...lol
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unfortunately, this is a tiny scene with tiny heads with tiny visions and a tiny amount of fans and people are too afraid to break out of that 4/4beat indian flute 4bar sample with rapping from the endz...
the most successful 'Asians' were the ones who broke out of that tag and did stuff that wasn't 'Asian'.... eg cornershop. also probably the more talented of asian musicians are in bands but don't make a point of saying they're asian... e.g. foreign beggars (orifice is one of the better rappers in the country), mystery jets, maximo park, boykillboy, cornershop etc etc etc.
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what up bobby? some people do try things that are different. when nihal played one of my tracks on your show, you made a comment about how different the music was. i saw a bunch of people taking the time to remind the reading audience that they are the type of artist who does not fit the stereotypes in the industry and thanks to your most, people have the opportunity to do that.
represent one records (the home of one signata nach), for instance, only makes socially conscious desi hip hop and instead of chasing the buck, it shares all the music for free. that's right, some people don't mind dumping their own money into something that can create change both musically and socio-politically in the desi scene. and my video for "one day remix" is about islamaphobia - not very marketable, but still something that some cats feel like they need to produce, regardless of the variables of costs, profit or fame that is associated with it.
peace, love and change,
-one signata nach
www.representonerecords.com
www.onesignatanach.com
www.myspace.com/onesignatanach
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i feel your frustration, but the truth is it's not just the desi-influenced scene. the "cookie cutter" phenomenon happens in all genres. you and nihal, and subsequently, the asian network have done an excellent job of pushing the boundaries. at least here in the u.s., there is almost no outlet for the music that you, pathaan, and nerm play on a regualr basis. outfits like bandish projekt, tigerstyle, shiva soundsystem, and bombay dub orchestra need to keep it coming. we've got something special, like the latin music scene, and if we are not afraid to keep trying new things and not be too concerned with making records that will sell, we will surely get the warranted props. keep doing your thing
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i feel exactly the same, which is why i hope to be the new age asian artist with a movement ,with a style ,and content of lyrical expertise that no one has ventured into, my track titled hard to be asian looks at these issues in detail and portrays how everyday asians are stuck in the rut of copying others, many artists have influences in the main stream industry ,but copy what they do and then have the nerve to want to be recognised for THIER talent ,the irony kills me however i am an artist who can be that face of a biggy or tupac, without copying their style, but where i need to succeed is through the help of my people, but will the day come where asians can put down thier egos, averex jackets ,and funny hats to the side and actually say respect this guys got a movement, a focus and aim to make asians recognised and accepted as real genuine artists, anyways ive said what i have to and leave you all with something to think about "TALENT MUST BE EARNED BEFORE IT CAN BE RESPECTED" AND ONE MORE THING IM SICK TO DEATH OF THE SAME OLD CONCEPTS ASIAN RAPPERS PUT IN THEIR LYRICS, IM A GANGSTAR I GOT BITCHES A NICE CAR MONEY, HOW THE HELL YOU GOT TIME TO BE A GANGSTAR IF YOUR IN A STUDIO ALL THE TIME, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ,ANYWAYS IM DONE MOANING BYE BYE AND HAVE A NICE DAY .ONE.SHIV
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chill out people....... in the end of the the time .. is all good =)..xx
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chill out people....... in the end of the the time .. is all good =)..xx
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Want something different and non-conformist...
Check this out.
www.myspace.com/mahaviraband
As another post mentioned there's lot of talented Asians out there who don't necessarily make a big deal of mentioning where they're coming from either because it's not important or perhaps deep down they think it might hold them back.
Well, we like to make a song and dance about...literally.
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Bobby if your asking 'wheres our Tupac?' well they are hundreds of Tupac clones dotted up and down the country. I totally agree with you, Asian music in particular bhangra sounds the same. It seems to be the same artists (namely Lehmber Hussainpuri) singing different lyrics over a very familiar sounding tune.
A classic example is DJ Vix album which has Kam Frantic sound about it, as does Dr Zeus's albums.
They is a bigger issue than the sound of Asian music. Its the attitude of the Asian music bosses, who have no passion for music innovation and simply look at the scene as a profit making activity. Until this changes the Asian music will have identical artists, producing identical textbook music.
On the upside artists such as Tigerstyle and PMC have broken away from the big bosses issues, and have set a trend to go independent to have control to allow for more innovation in music, and improving on album sales with real Marketing, PR and Promotions. To help push real talent.
It up to the likes of 1xtra and Radio 1 and Asian Network to stay clear from the mainstream Asian music and support more unsung talent.
My message to those in the UK Asian Music industry 'Stop imitating and innovate!
Alex ;)
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if thats the case...the1shanti has pretty much been the first to address all these conformists and not be scared.
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yeah bobby i total agree. brit asians are underrepresented. we dont have many ppl on mainstream tv. we need role models. im a pop artist in Yorkshire and im probably the only brit asian pop artist. my music is all mainstream. i dont talk about guns, money and bling.
listen to my track ' In Too Deep'
i hope this will cheer u up!!
Love
AlibiAdam
www.myspace.com/alibiadam
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Hi Bobby
In response to your valid comments - I think you know my work - I get very little support from the mainstream Asian scene at my gigs or exhibitions but that's always been the case - audiences also need to check out the more experimental side that is going on - I don't just want a Biggie Tupac etc - I do also want a Derek Bailey / Sun Ra/ Diamanda Galas / Napalm Death and much much more.
I am a Female Asian noise artist and photographer - Poulomi Desai
Check out my gig at Futuresonic Festival 2006.
Feature on Desi DNA 成人论坛2 on the 14th of April 2007
More on my work www.usurp.org.uk
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I feel what yor saying bro, as a desi musician ive always tried to keep my music fresh n original, (obvious) sample free, the lyrics interestin and the videos unique. I aint sayin the greatest, but am original and have my small local following. But then sometime u feel the pressure to conform to what seems to be popular, to increase your own popularity because as u know better than most scraping a living out of the desi music scene aint easy.
Check the latest video i done for desi shh (not just another plug ..valid point.
Its been such a pain tryin to get this up on the major asian networks. Some say its too controversial (lyrics that is) others say the film quality is low (think they're missing the point) and some wanted major $'s (hell no). After doing a number of censored versions i finally managed to get it playlisted on one channel wholl be showing it only after midnight only coz of the use of the word 'shh'. For my next video i think ill remake something outta the 90's.
' Do our roots and culture make us conformist sheep??? " No way, our ancestors were people of creativity and i feel nothing but inspiration when readin about shah jahan, gandhi, tipu sultan, akbar etc etc
Myspace.com/badshaah
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Where is our Bob Marley, Our Beatles, Our Biggie or Tupac for gods sake!!
We had Rafi, Kishore , Mukesh , Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lal Chand Yamla JAtt and many more
Chamkila and Aziz Mian were as controversial as, if not moreso than Biggie/Tupac.
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Ok - as other posts this is going to be comment blended with some shameless self promotion!
I guess my first point is that we have a huge musical tradition and heritage that extends way beyond the same ol' same ol' hip-hop, rn'b stff that you can hear sometimes and that is the backdrop that we stick our bits and pieces of 'Asianness' over (though that's not to say that genuine creativity, talent and originality can't arise from subverting musical styles...). Music on the Indian sub-continent is thousands and thousands or years old and is far older with much deeper roots than alot of stuff we here nowadays - the challenge then is to rediscover some of this stuff and give a context that fits today but still retains that sincerity - yep easier said that done.
I guess the thing I'm leaning towards is fusion (yes a dirty word sometimes that sparks of pictures of dodgy 70s synth keys and musical maturbation) but I think it's about the push to blend, musically, traditions on a more basic level. Where the problem arises is with some stuff - just because you drop in a sample of a sitar or a vocal/ flute, shoot some braggadaggio in punjabi, doesn't necessarily mean that it's musical evolution that's happening, I mean we've been past that stage and novelty years ago.
What we need to do look from where we're coming from but also to where we're heading or want to head...I love and respect my pops but I ain't him at the same time and I'm not going to pretend to be....We've both done and experienced things that the other can't get inside of but our music generation to generation should be our way of expressing that.
So you say - lots of talk but what of an example...can you do any better? Well perhaps I can
www.myspace.com/mahaviraband
Check the first track specifically...
P.S Singers around in London??? - in the ideal world someone who could sing in both English and do the alternative thing but the also sing in Hindhi/ Punjabi/ Marathi etc...and do a classical or folk thing.
Raj
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Something else to look is what does Desi Culture do for other people in terms of social justice. Asian music can be a power for good.
Tony Blair recently said in Prime Minister's Questions (PMQs) in the House of Commons that 'Autism was a very serious issue.' He was asked a question in parliament by Lee Scott MP. The Ilford North MP recently launched one of the most important debates on autism in Westminster Hall.
There are 587,000 people with autism in the UK, Over 113,000 young people under the age of 18 have autism. In London alone they say there are 15,000 people from minority ethnic communities who have autism. Numbers of autistic children are rising within the Asia Community.
How many Asian producers, singers, groups, think about the some of these serious issues? The UK Asian Music industry can do so much to help children with autism in the Asian Community. They can raise awareness of autism through music, raise funds for charities and voluntary sector organisations. Autism is one of the most serious education and health issues facing the Asian Community in the UK.
One of Sri Lanka's greatest singer songwriters, Nimal Mendis who lives in the UK is scheduled to release a song about autism with part proceeds going to charity. So Desi musicians could do so much more - Brit Asians could reach out to those who are struggling with life - Autism is a 24 hour job. Many parents, carers and people with autism from the Asian Community are suffering. Some struggle to access public services for their children.
Autism is very much in the news - to hear Tony Blair talk about autism please see the link:
News article on Lee Scott MP on an Asian website:
UK Autism Campaigners call for a 10 Year Program of Action:
ttp://www.huliq.com/17128/uk-autism-campaigners-call-for-10-year-program
uk autism
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Hi, i can understand where you are coming from, many artists 2day are in for the money and not to make their unique mark on the bhangra music scene! dont get me wrong their are talented music artists out there which are actually making music which is bhangra! but their can be many debates to this as the younger generation may like more rnb hiphop mixture mixed with the bhangra and then you get the raw bhangra fans which just love pure bhangra with lyrix that make sense (lehmber, kaka bhaniawala) and have real bhangra vibe to it. We are underground project who have been going for about 5 years now producing underground mixtapes, basically trying to test music out there and get a feel of what the audience like.
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You're absolutely right Bobby! That's why in our frustration, we down at Kalakaar decided to make music videos which were very different conceptually. We realised though that many South Asian folk just didn't get them or took ages before doing so - it's cos their brains have been numbed by the rubbish out there. Our white mates and our more digilent desi contacts understood our videos straight away. As far as our music's concerned, (and I hope you've heard it 'cos we've sent our releases to you in the past), all our production is our own creativity. As musicians, it would make no sense if we simply nicked other people's stuff as you so rightly criticise.
It was about time someone had raised the issue. Kudos mate.
www.kalakaar.co.uk
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I understand where your coming from Bobby, out of all the artists today, their are only a few that produce music related to out roots and culture. Its true that to some artists its about money making and getting up the ladder quick and fast, but their are some artists out there who want the public to actually love their music and want their music to grow on to people.
This situation you are talking about can be debated as their is the younger generation who want music more westernised because it blends in with modern day life and they want all kinds of cultures to understand the music and not jus asians!
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Bobby Friction telling it how it is...
I love your way with words brother...
I would say its mostly true. Not 99% but more like 90 - 95%
That doesn't really stick up for people much though does it???
Sometimes its scarey to think out of the box incase some people just don't accept it.
It's ashame really because thats exactly what is needed.
See you soon.
Peace
Parm
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Uncomformity exsists in many forms -even if you indulge in the lyrics from Lata/Rafi to present day Bolly or Lolly or whatever "wood" its always been there.
In terms of today or the last 15 years Fun Da Mental on one side and Talvin at the other end of the spectrum with all between have been doing it - the problem has been the Asian media establishment has treaded carefully rather than championing it, which is bizarre because mainstream alternative stations have played it- why is it that Fun Da Mental had 3 sessions with John Peel back in the day yet the Asian Media was cautious and even now-maybe the people that run Asian Media need to relax a bit and know that they can break the rules because everyone else does.
Also Friction show on radio 1 came about 10 years too late and the genaration that was the most anarchic, focused and visioned felt to go back in time was not the in-thing- maybe a show on them times as a series will expose the great uncomformity you are talking about and I can say that those idea are timeless and inspirational even now.
As it happens it all happened before Friction and Nihal were names but that does not mean it never happened. When people say the Beatles- Tupac-Public Enemy etc you can say FDM-Asian Dub Foundation- Charged- hustlers HC- Charged- Nitin- Cornershop, Talvin etc and also the massive influence this movement had on the contemporary music in general.
There are many aspects and complex issues to this subject and in all honesty there is still great bhangra and desi stuff as well as the many other forms of music from Asian sub continent.
It is true and wise to say that a new generation of musicians have not really created a new platform with a unique identity but this is not a monoply to our communities however it would also be wise, if I am allowed to say, is that Asians in Britain, in artistic terms need to be more self indulgent and have a long term vision but also a concept in terms of art to build up to.
Also the Asian Media need to also break loose from the "slave mentality" to the establishment.
If for one moment Asians would think that we come from cultures which are so expressive and uncomforming in many ways that we do an injustice to ourselves that we feel the need to buy into another culture because its more expressive.Why is it to this day we all become all emotional when we listen to Rafi songs,its because they are deep.Clothes, art, dialogue, music,dissenting thoughts are a part of are make up so where is the problem?
Anyway you youngsters better start creating some mad stuff cos Friction will be out of a job and will start writing about the Asian community in the Daily mail!!!!!!!.
Over but not out
aki
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If you listen to alternative/rock you know they have been plagued by the same problem in this decade and mostly look to the "golden 90s" with nirvana, nine inch nails etc.
One of the main problems is economics. It takes alot more dedication and time to master and record with live instruments and nowadays the public is unwilling to patronize that kind of effort with their dollars. Noone is willing to put in the kind of effort required when the know the returns will be paultry. lawmakers need to come up with stricter enforcement and give teeth to agencies responsible for enforcement.
I think i speak for alotta people when I say, that we are tired of the predictable tumbi, dhol(even though I play them as well) and sampled beats ripped off from a hip hop artist etc. Being in the U.S. we are tormented with this nonsense alot more than you folks in Britain courtesy of the U.S. "remix industry".
the problem is that the bhangra artists in U.K. are trying desperately to sound like the punjabi singers in India and the punjabi singers in India are trying desperately to sound like they do their kheti baarhi by the Thames.
Also the formula driven albums by the live bands kill whatever hope their is left for this thing we call Bhangra. I do not appreciate having to skip thru daaru, jatt, and wedding songs. You know the guy puts in those lousy songs just for the wedding afterparties.
The time is ripe for an artist independant of financial concerns to make his mark. I have been playing drums since I was 14 and am now in the process of learning keyboards and guitars. In time, hopefully Ill be that person. A musician only succeeds if he makes music that is ahead of his time. well thought out compositions are a hallmark of good music that the desperately missing in today's lehmberized tracks that all sound alike. Let's use our golden past filled with melodies from bands like Heera, Sahotas, kalapreet, anamika to inspire our new sounds... I firmly believe the best days of Bhangra are yet to come.
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Bhangra Artists - They make me laugh. Most of them seem to churn out the same garbage over and over again. The Hindi brigade aren't any better. They just rip Bollywood off. One of the biggest problems I see and hear is that our young have lost the total command of our own language. I go out and buy a CD and find that only one track is worth listening to and the rest is absolute gobbledygook and gibberish. What’s more the amount of Rapping going on in some of the music is pathetic. Why? We aren’t black; it’s not in our culture. Some of them even have the hard neck to accept MOBO awards. Since when was Bhangra black. Even worse are the existing beautiful songs that have been bastardised and ruined by some of the so called artists. Write your own rubbish before you turn any more classics into rubbish. My advice to some this idiot is to go and learn our language and make better use of it. To be honest, it boils my blood. We seem to have a generation of complete imbeciles. There should be a law against this kind of behaviour. I think each one of them should be sentenced to 50 years on the Indian Railway Programme for just ruining my beautyful language that is Punjabi.
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erm... we do have a very richeous new artist who brings up many of these political issues suchas gun violence and gang mentality...for example "im talking to my youths here, i say dont stop thinking of your future, coz of them cant recruit ya, them others shoot ya" (do good-k-oss)... i think this new up and coming artist should be further ahead than where he is at...i love his music, and believe that this reggae artist withan indian heritage is a good role model for a generation of children, of all races and genders....blessed love
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