³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

is a British author and former government advisor, who has written widely on the impact of the social web.

This is one of several general 'talking head' interviews that were filmed on September 15th. The interviewer was Series Producer Russell Barnes.

Click here if you want to embed or download this rushes sequence.

CharlesÌýÌýÌý 02.09.22ÌýÌýÌý I think right from the beginning there are kind of two competing views about the web, ah, playing out, which still play out now.Ìý One is that the web is this home for collaboration, for sharing, for allowing information to be free, for
ÌýÌýÌý 02.09.35ÌýÌýÌý people being able to create things together in open platforms and sharing ideas and that's imbedded in the kind of geek/hippy culture of the Homebrew Computer Club, right at the start of all this in the 1970's.Ìý And then there's another, which is the kind of Bill Gates/Microsoft corporate view, which is wait a minute, how do you pay the mortgage?Ìý You know, you're sharing all this stuff for free, but who's putting the groceries on the table?Ìý Someone needs to pay for this stuff.Ìý And
ÌýÌýÌý 02.10.03ÌýÌýÌý that is still not really a question we've worked out, because even now, the newest creations of the web, the most glittering, Twitter, no one knows how it's going to make money - it's fantastic to do, but how do you actually make money out of it?Ìý And so this is this huge dilemma, that we've got this way of creating stuff, collaborative and open, which isn't really viable economically in
ÌýÌýÌý 02.10.25ÌýÌýÌý some ways and we're still trying to work out how we might make our livings out of it.Ìý And that's the way that we now live, in this world where we're caught between these two forces.

IntvrÌýÌýÌý 02.11.07ÌýÌýÌý We saw and I mean you talked about a lot of collaboration but also it's quite a cut throat kind of world out there of, of you know you live for a few years and then your over, is that a useful way to think about the web, rather than the socialist model that erm Kevin Keller's been talking about?

CharlesÌýÌýÌý 02.11.33ÌýÌýÌý Erm, hold on, erm I think the best way to think about the web is that it's a huge unfolding social experiment, in which we are both part of the experiment and conducting it.Ìý And so what's fascinating is that as these tools spread and become more available to more people, new stuff keeps on emerging and old stuff then gets outmoded.Ìý So you see erm, old browsers, old search engines, old social network sites kind of rising and then falling.Ìý So it's like an echo system in a way that it's a kind of constantly evolving thing, and that is what is so important about it.Ìý Because actually, if it
ÌýÌýÌý 02.12.17ÌýÌýÌý owned, was owned by Google, if it was all owned by Microsoft you wouldn't get that kind of explosion of creativity.Ìý The cost is you also get this huge volatility as things come and go, erm and change.Ìý But
ÌýÌýÌý 02.12.30ÌýÌýÌý the underlying logic of it all, is finding new ways to exploit this ability to combine creatively and collaboration.Ìý Those, that's the underlying logic of all this.Ìý Finding new and more creative ways to collaborate.Ìý And the trick, that everyone is trying to pull off is how do you make money out of that so you can create a kind of viable organisation that people can earn they're livings from or invest in.

IntvrÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌý Do you think, I mean its been suggested to us by some people that there has been a levelling, and then hierarchy's necessarily emerge and we talked a bit about that with Wikipedia, but is there a sense in which that the web then where we see that thing going on also re-emergence of bigger boulders within the you know on the level playing field, is that, is the web in some way a mirror society a reflection of simply of human nature, is it that some people are always going to be more weak than others, the web so the web is simply reflecting that back at us?

CharlesÌýÌýÌý 02.13.29ÌýÌýÌý Well I think the web is a reflection of society, its, its the web is pornography, gossip, flirting, erm power plays, people making money.Ìý I mean the web isn't a sort of utopian collective.Ìý Its life reflected on the web.Ìý But the nature of the web, because it allows this ability to create in a very distributed way and for people to connect and collaborate, it makes things possible in ways that they weren't before.Ìý Its now possible to collaborate more effectively than ever before without having a traditional organisation.Ìý It's created a new menu of options for us to get things done together in new ways, that is significantly different.Ìý So in that sense its not
ÌýÌýÌý 02.14.09ÌýÌýÌý simply reflecting how society is, its opening up options for us to behave and be in different ways, and that's what's really significant about it.

IntvrÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌý And lastly the blogosphere, I think the figures are you know actually this is one of these examples of a huge rush of almost like levelling ......... and then perhaps a kind of slight contraction and now you know the aggregation sites like Huffington Post and, and others, erm Tree Hugger, now they're kind of hubs of power, is that, would you think, was that a useful, another way again an example of how power was almost pulverised, in a way publishing power is pulverised but then gradually congeals again around
ÌýÌýÌý 02.14.53ÌýÌýÌý these hubs like Huffington?

CharlesÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌý Yes, I, I think that what you get, I think on the web is this constant process of kind of new things emerging from new sources and then new structure emerging out of it, and so you do find these aggregators like the Huffington post and others which are pulling all these kind of little pebbles together, you tube and what have you.Ìý But the point is, that I suppose is that as long as there still is this explosion, and as long as there's the opportunity then to create new ways
ÌýÌýÌý 02.15.23ÌýÌýÌý of bringing things together and I think there will be new search engines, I don't think Google is the end of that story at all, I think they'll be new news aggregators, I think Huffington Post may come and go in 5 years.Ìý Then you get new possibilities.Ìý The danger is that
ÌýÌýÌý 02.15.37ÌýÌýÌý you'll just get new big boulders.Ìý I mean this metaphor that people use about the web being a cloud, like cloud computing, imagine a world in which there was only one kind of cloud, and it was called Google and it was just floating over you and that was your only option.Ìý You could only have one cloud in your sky and it was Google, that would be an awful world.Ìý Actually, thankfully we have scores of kinds of clouds and that's what you want on the web.Ìý You want a sky full of different kinds of clouds being created by different people.

IntvrÌýÌýÌý ÌýÌýÌý I'd just like to re-cap, it would be nice to encapsulate it.Ìý Can the, should the web be seen as a great levelling?

CharlesÌýÌýÌý 02.16.17ÌýÌýÌý The Web I think is a great levelling, because the means of production to have your voice heard, to find an audience, to join in, have been hugely costly in the past, you've needed recording studios, or television studios or printing presses.Ìý Now someone with an iPhone can post a video, make a pod cast, connect to someone else, anyone with the means of communication erm through a computer can have access,
ÌýÌýÌý 02.16.42ÌýÌýÌý potentially to a vast audience.Ìý In that sense, it has completely blown apart and levelled access to communications and collaboration.Ìý You can have your say and find your audience, find collaborators in ways that were never possible before.