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In America it is all about marketing. Electricity and the accompaning gadets are like opium was to China 100 years ago. People don't think about the inefficiency of the grid or the toxic waste when the gadets are thrown away so the latest model can be bought. Electricity is a wonderful thing, it is the production, transmission and waste that creates the problems. If you take current populations and expect them to produce their own food, you would run out of land quickly and don't forget about the methane gas produced by cows and contribution to global warming. Millions of people in China and in India are scratching the earth trying to survive and not doing so well, so the romantic view of this lifestyle should be seen in the greater context. We and the rats have become urban creatures.

Justin writes:

"The fact that the Amish are finding it hard to sustain their traditional lifestyles gives a sense of the challenge we all face. The ease of energy-intensive lifestyles is clearly hard to resist."

Do you seriously think "we" should adopt an Amish lifestyle ? And who do you mean when you write "we" ?

Where does he say we must adopt the Amish lifestyle?

He's just saying that it is difficult to avoid convenience now even if it doesn't help long-term.

I wonder what do the Amish use for lighting.

If they use candles or kerosene lamps, it would produce much more carbon dioxide per household than electric lighting. Probably hundreds or thousands times more than someone who uses LED lights.

It seems to me the challenge is to cut greenhouse emissions, not to go back in time.

4. At 9:32pm on 20 Jul 2009, skamble wrote:
It seems to me the challenge is to cut greenhouse emissions, not to go back in time.

I tend to agree.

It was an interesting travel/social piece, but I am unsure if there is much one can take by way of dealing with future world/climate related issues. Even these fine folk seem unable to resist the shiny cameras and boom mikes (where did the crew sleep?) that squirt electrons around; shame they will never get to see this piece about them.

True, these guys are living a relatively self-sustaining agrarian-based lifestyle, but with six brothers it seems little wonder the moppet and her siblings are finding things are constraining. That is kind of what happens as populations expand. Then you end up with millions in cities with high-intensity farming to feed 'em.

And it is hard to resist the human urge to roam (and all its consequences), which is why these fine folk were first to be found in a train. I'd be intrigued to learn (though I'm sure 'No, you're wrong. Period. So stop having opinions' will explain, and within 2mins of posting - is it on shifts?) how the motive power of this vehicle differs from that of a car to render it more acceptable. Is diesel OK but petrol not? Do the Amish carry out a per head Co2 analysis before trips? On the basis of the explanation I think I heard, a chauffeured Hummer seems to be the next option from a pony and trap.

Or cradle to grave on systems or products? Does that plastic bucket in the barn actually impose fewer emissions being made, used and eventually recycled than one made from wood and turned, or from clay and fired?

So I think this piece has served to highlight the dilemmas faced, though in many ways a more interesting aspect is how the 'resistance' to 'temptation' is being eroded by succumbing to desire rather than necessity. The interpretations on the acceptability of transport options seemed 'flexible' at best, much like a person in an eco-town deciding a car is OK because they work in another place (maybe a factory that makes foot-treadle sewing machines for folk who like labour-saving devices without thinking too hard on how they happen to exist) or, as Justin noted, battery packs but not the electricity that is required to charge them.

ps: When you muck out a stable, is it best to do it in a suit that will need dry cleaning, or on clothes that can be simply washed and hung out to dry? I think the Amish may have some things yet to share.

"It seems to me the challenge is to cut greenhouse emissions, not to go back in time."

Uh, you can't.

Before the technology for creating machines to extract aluminium, it was a rare metal. The Queen had some jewellery in aluminium. At the time it was EXPENSIVE to extract.

But technology made it possible to easily extract aluminium and now it's cheap as chips.

Prove that we need to "go back in time" to reduce our CO2 load?

After all, there were no photovoltaics or tidal generation motors in the middle ages. And their CO2 load is minimal, mostly at the creation stage (and then mostly because we still use fossil fuels for power and transport).

Stop with the alarmism.

Reducing our CO2 emissions by 80% doesn't mean we have to go back in time. It merely means we have to stop standing still in time and use some 20th century technology instead of 19th century.

Dear Justin,
Happily watched this video ,without giving any second thought.
Wonderful.lively writing and cleverly covered of this communities day today life,their good economic and social activities.
All are very nice.
Recommended for rural economics,rural sociology and for case study for research students.
In big cities and towns,we may not find that special environment,social co-existence for lovely life.
It shows that,these separate ethnic group acceptes both rural and urban life set up.
Thanks to you and to ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Services networks.

Justin has highlighted one of many contradictions in the 'green' message.

In one hi-tech vision of a 'low-carbon' future all of us will be either designing windmills or designing websites - some of us will be even designing websites about windmills. We will cycle everywhere, and power shortfalls will be managed by a 'smart grid'.

The other low-tech version is a Tolkien-style Middle-Earth where we all cheerfully grow organic tofu and walk happily to vegetarian farmers' markets. Like the Amish but further back in time. We never get ill because of our macrobiotic diet and when we do get ill we use crystals and aromatherapy.

Each of these visions is incoherent tosh - but the big problem is that many greenies are dreaming of both futures at the same time.

Strange to say it but great piece Justin.

Skamble you lighting question is answered in the piece.

as to your assessment of energy used to power a light.
I'm not sure it would pass a scientific test, but maybe.
That LED had to be made in a factory t hat had to be made from other parts in factories. the energy in getting the light bulb to you from said factory (probably in China) would out wiegh the energy used to produce and use a beeswax candle at home from the hives in the garden.(though maybe they have none)
I suspect the electrical light to fitting to hold the LED and the electricity to run it and the power used to go get it add up.
then there is the advertising to get you to buy t heir LED and not another. and then the lifestyles of those that are the [eopel working to make all these goods also come into play.

Yes it is complicated but to suggest they use more than most houses of their allotted CO2 production is probably the same as their fertaliser.

PS they say in the report video link what is used for lighting.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

i haven't been following this blog ever since the ethical man discredited himself with his stupid story about jackalope hunting, but I just happened to notice this article. Are those really Amish people? They look more like Mennonites to me. Amish and Mennonite are NOT synonyms. Anyway, the Amish and Mennonites typically use kerosene for lamps, diesel generators for running fans to keep cattle cool and milk cold, etc. Their lifestyle is different, certainly, but not always environmentally friendly. It depends on the individual.

Testing

#143 prudeboy

er...I think you have left out National Socialism...it's never really been given a fair crack of the whip!

Oh, and #144 make the most of it while you can...whilst it's still yours.

A pennsylvanian friend told me about the great party's of the Amish youngsters.

I did´nt know,they handcraft aluminium backing trays and plastic bowls.

The most don't produce eco-food and reducing the human spirit to a tribal doctrine is as limiting as neo-liberalism.