³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

You wouldn't be targeting the language in this way if you were a Cornish speaker.

Graham, with the amount of waste that goes on at the Council, the amount of my and your money that goes to the language is miniscule. I think you'll find support for the language is quite high in Cornwall, even if not everyone chooses to learn it. It's a part of our culture and heritage and the support we give it is not the reason you can't buy a third or fourth car.

Stop doing the usual lowest-common-denominator journalist thing and fishing for neat little soundbites, and take a look at the wider picture of waste at Lys Kernow. Your "about this blog" section says you hope to provide "fresh insights". Well, let's see them.

By the way I would have written that message in Cornish if it wouldn't get deleted by the moderators.

A living indigenous native language of the British Isles censored by the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Shurely shome mishtake...

It's not 1984 is it?

Your point is?

This game could kill hours of down time:

Cornwall Council CEO salary package £239,000

Amount Cornwall Council is spending this year on the Cornish Language Partnership: £20,000.
"As the Council hosts the Partnership, there is an additional in-kind contribution which
is not identified in the budgets." - Cornish Language Partnership business plan 2009 -11

Is he worth 10 times more?

AccurateChronometer: I wrote a post in Cornish....it was censored....so I wrote another in 8-9th century Anglo-Saxon (Old English), this too was censored.......the house rules clearly state all comments must be in English......³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ English it appears.

That seems more than a little linguistically anglo-imperialist on the part of the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳, Rialobran - particularly given the topic of Mr Smith's post! How are we to know that money is being well spent if people are prevented from sharing the cultural joy arising from expressing themselves in their native language, the enjoyment of which may have been nurtured or supported in some way through the work of the Cornish Language Partnership? Surely the British (NOT English) Broadcasting Corporation should have the imagination to regard responses in Cornish - an indigenous British language - to Mr Smith's post here as being utterly 'on topic'?
Apparently , as recently as the 1950s, children who dared to speak in their native tongue or in dialect in Welsh schools were put in the classroom corner with a dunce's cap on their head.
Could this be the on-line equivalent?
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose?

This seems a no-brainer to me. Transfer the £20k from the Cornish Language Partnership to the speech therapists.

People should pay for their own hobbies!

Up our way,at the other end of the celtic diaspora,speech therapists are employed by the NHS,not local govenment,so if the money(which wouldn't buy half a speech therapist,at today's wage rates) isn't going there then where?...

I fully agree with backofanenvelope, a no-brainer. Nice find Graham

When all is said and done it's all taxpayers money which is being spent.

Ask the Cornish Taxpayer what they would rather the money be spent on, a half time speech therapist for the county, or to support the hobby of a few individuals, and I think you'll find the former woudl be chose over the latter by a huge magnitude.

Grahams playing games, budgets are not allocated via word association, whilst the 20k is a clear misuse of money; I feel no need to link it with a depressing cut. This is the kinds of cuts we expected whilst the Council keeps wasting money on cultural minority activities which benefit a hand full of people, all so they can march on London claiming Cornish is an official language.

I agree with the greater story, stop wasting money whilst cutting important services

No offence Graham, just cutting to the chase

So here Graham we have an example of one of your choices that would suggest you are an English cultural nationalist in Cornwall and have little time for the indigenous Cornish culture.

What do I mean? Well in your article above you use the classic populist tactic that is to compare two expenditures of radically different natures and totally out of their original contexts. You do this in order to attack the indigenous Cornish language that you care little for. This being because you are English, from England and consider that Cornwall and the the Cornish are no different, or at least shouldn't be any different.

Lets see if I can use this rather transparent populism but in a different direction.

Why doesn't the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ invest more time in promoting the Cornish language, and therefore human cultural diversity, rather than waste time, money and manpower on a blog of such low quality? Lets go for the big one shall we. Instead of Trident why not the cultures/languages of the UK's national minorities? You see, it's easy isn't it. Lets give those choice to the Cornish and British public.

BTW the majority of tax payers in the Duchy support the funding of Cornish.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"BTW the majority of tax payers in the Duchy support the funding of Cornish"

Remind me when we were asked?

I really don't appreciate the tone of this your latest opinion column Graham, I note you have not singled out the money paid by the council for the promotion of Gypsy and Irish Traveler heritage, or the minority language provision for Lithuanian or Polish or Vietnamese but yet again you have singled out the Cornish language. I suppose in these hard times it is always the weakest and the poorest that lose out.

I am not arguing that speech therapy should a poor second to Cornish but why save 20 thousand pounds on Cornish. Why not say stop the French or German or Spanish provision in Cornish schools, lets see dozens of secondary schools all employing two or three teachers each all probably on twenty to thirty grand a year how many speech therapists would that afford?

I sincerely believe that Cornish should take its place amongst these other languages on the curriculum and that we should embrace not only our own language but others too. I just question why you have to keep singling out Cornish when the amount of money it receieves is pitiful in comparison to other languages. For example, you wrote another opinion peice titled How Many People Speak Cornish questioning funding for Kernowek, well how's about this: how many people speak German of French or Polish or Vietnamese or Lithuanian? How much money do they get?

Is anyone stopping anyone learning any language?

If people wish to revive and invent extinct languages, as this is not what Dolly spoke, they should fund it themselves



It is not going to get anyone work like the other languages
It is not going to break down languages barriers like the other languages
Nobody speaks it natively

It’s a political tool akin to Devonwall

The simple answer to you Rob, is that the council shouldn't be funding Gypsy or Irish traveller heritage. The teaching of language in state schools is governed by the central government and I am surprised to hear that it includes Lithuanian, Polish and Vietnamese. Is that correct?

Although I am not Cornish I would be happy to see Cornish history taught in our schools; as long as it was vetted to keep out the Western-Ghettoists.

I take your point Peter but in my life I have learnt French and German and Cornish Welsh. None of them have helped me find work.

My dear life Cornish is a barrier, to what?

Nobody speaks Cornish natively, prove it. If I have children and only speak to them in Cornish is that not native? Languages are fluid my friend just because one generation doesn't speak a language as a native tongue does not mean the next generation won't.

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Rob nobody is knocking the language and your passion is highly praiseworthy.

I just feel we have more vital things to spend money on in a very limited pot

The Cornish language is being used as a political tool to spread separation. Something I will always oppose so long as my heart beats. I accept it could just be because people like Mike and Co have started using it, but that is not what I want to happen to my forefathers legacy.

In my opinion Cornish is not user friendly and one would have to be a fool to try and argue against the success of English as a language, we are lucky to speak a language many work hard to learn, a language that is uniting the world, perhaps one day Chinese will rule, some how I think not. Enjoy Cornish but lets not impose it on anyone and lets use critical funds for the most needy

Smoke and mirrors indeed, there are already hundreds of Cornish classes that are taught throughout Cornwall largely by unpaid volunteers. From what I hear schools across Cornwall are looking to start Cornish lessons but do not have the funding to pay for teachers. Unlike the 300 or so languages taught in the UK there is no provision for paying teachers to teach Cornish. My point is that the Cornish is already in this sad state why pick apart the meagre funding more.

If you want to look for money to be saved from the council what about this?

Casual Trampoline Coach
Directorate: Communities
Location: Wadebridge
Salary: G6, £11.15 - £11.15, per hour* Hours: As and when required
Working Pattern: PartTime
Contract Type: Permanent Closing Date: 26/11/2010
Reference: 2688

Estimates put the number of fluent speakers of Cornish at around three or four hundred people. (www.cornish-language.org/english/faq.asp)

That's £650.00 a head we're subbing them

Rob I think you are comparing Apples with Pears, the health benefits of any form of sporting activity does not compare to learning an extinct language which is viewed as hobby akin to stamp collecting and train spotting. I should also point out Trampoline is mainly used by under 8 as it one of the view activities they can do whilst busy parents do other activities in sports centres.

I agree with Andrew nobody is saying we do not respect those learning the language but feel the money can be better used, which I feel is the point majority are making.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"Estimates put the number of fluent speakers of Cornish at around three or four hundred people. (www.cornish-language.org/english/faq.asp)
That's £650.00 a head we're subbing them"
Where are you getting your figures from?
Graham quotes £20,000, plus "an additional in-kind contribution", which I would imagine to be the use of office facilities etc. You quote an estimated figure of 3 to 4 hundred fluent speakers, what about all those who are learning who are not yet classed as "fluent"?
Even if we only use the figures that are known, £20,000, and the lowest figure you quote for fluency, 300, allowing the in kind contribution to cancel out the learners, then it would mean that each fluent speaker is "subbed" a mere £66·67.

If we now look at the £10,000 that the Council are proposing to reduce the Speech therapy budget by, we are left with a number of questions.

1/ What is the current requirement for speech therapy, and how does that compare with the requirements of previous years?

2/ Have there been any advances made in the field of speech therapy, that enables 1 therapist to be more successful, and more productive?

3/ How much does a speech therapist earn?
"The typical starting salary for speech and language therapists in the National Health Service (see NHS Careers ) is around £20,225. This can rise quickly to £24,103 - £32,653 (salary data collected Jan 09). Other employers, such as charities and local education authorities, offer comparable pay." from here:-

4/ How many speech therapists do the Council employ?, or do they "hire in"?

5/ Is this "saving" envisaged to be made by the reduction in employment (just under half a speech therapist), improved efficiency, or by the renegotiation of outside contracts?

6/ Has there been an indication of "waste" in the speech therapy system, that improvements in would account for the £10,000 reduction?

What Graham has done is to take two completely different things, and attempt to draw a comparison between them, he is attempting to compare Chalk with Welsh Rarebit.

There are many things that we have come to expect our Council to provide. Some of them, most of us agree with, whilst some of them very few of us agree with. Some of those things are required by law, and some of them have come about through public petitioning. None of us will ever agree with everything the Council provides, and we will always be able to point at one thing and say that it is more or less deserving than something else, usually, we are ignorant of many of the reasons why the Council provide such a service in the first place. So before we jump in with both feet, and make ourselves look silly, should we not find out the full story first.
Come on Graham, I always thought you did your best to be impartial, how about finding the answers to the questions I posed above?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Rob says: "there are already hundreds of Cornish classes that are taught throughout Cornwall largely by unpaid volunteers. From what I hear schools across Cornwall are looking to start Cornish lessons but do not have the funding to pay for teachers. Unlike the 300 or so languages taught in the UK there is no provision for paying teachers to teach Cornish."

I have no idea if 300 languages are taught in the state school system but I am willing to bet that most state schools that teach a foreign language teach one of four major European languages.

Those who propose the teaching of Cornish in state schools should tell us what they would drop to make room. My grandchildren seem to have pretty full days as it is. They should also tell us where the money is coming from - increases in council tax perhaps? In any event, about 50% of school children in our schools are NOT Cornish.

I might add that I am not in favour of trampoline coaches either.

What we are seeing now is the County Council cutting out the frills. £212k a year on the Cornish language project would be something I would redirect.

Graham said - I would nevertheless be interested to hear from the parent of a child who is deaf, autistic, in need of post-surgery therapy or who has some other difficulty in learning to speak - in any language.

Here is a silent abused minority Graham is rightly giving a voice to, brilliant comment. I would give them the entire £212k, comments about Cornish in schools pale into insignificance, these are Cornish people with real needs and it would seem one Cornish job.

Makes you wonder how the rest of the budget is being spent when they can hand out £212k for minority hobbies

Graham Smith wrote:-
"The cut was achieved by not filling a vacant post"
Then I would say that considering the going rate for a speech therapist starts at around ££20,225, then the position was for a very short weekly period, or a very short period of time, as once employers contributions for NI, pension, and the actual expenses that such a position would occur, office costs, traveling expenses etc, then there would not be that much money left to pay an employee out of a mere £10,000.
The point I was making was that there are many other services that the Council provide that could equally be picked on for a comparison, some of them equally contentious in certain quarters.
If you were to ask me to choose between helping a child to talk or helping the Cornish language, then I would obviously choose the child. But, it is not a question of either/or.
How about looking at the amount of money spent on advertising the Tourist "industry", a private industry that should have to fund it's own advertising, just like other industries, is that more important than a child?
These cuts are being made necessary by the Government providing Councils across the UK less money than in previous years, yet they still wage 2 highly expensive, and questionable wars, is the pursuit of these more important than a child?
Or what about the staff that our esteemed PM has just taken on, a personal photographer?
It is easy to pick on one service and compare it with another, especially when one is emotive, and the other could be considered contentious, but all such comparisons do is to inflame an already touchy subject.

Brilliant comment Graham, only a few members of an fantasy oppressed minority would ever be so uncouth as to try and stand against such a waste of money. Talk about robbing disabled Peter to pay spoilt Paul, it honestly makes me sick

The spin that some people try to put on things here is unbelievable.

Even if the Council stopped their support on the Cornish Language Partnership, does anyone actually think that the £20,000 (+ additional in-kind contribution) would go to the speech therapy budget?

To attempt to portray this as an either/or situation smacks of gutter politics. Unfortunately, gutter politics is what we have come to expect from the Kernowphobes here.

That's all very well, Mr Smith, now coming over as the clear headed Mr Reasonable but, in the first instance and for the purposes of your attention seeking low grade anti-Cornish-aspiration 'blog' infested with curiously obsessive and peculiar fellow travellers, isn't it the case that you just latched on to the 'speech' connection for cheapskate media tart effect? Is that not the truth of the matter?

curiously obsessive and peculiar fellow travellers.......lol
And agreed too Mr Trembath

Thinking about it, if the vested interest which I quoted state that there are "three hundred fluent in Cornish", (of course they have no way of substantiating their claim,) then my guess is we'd be looking at 30-40 fluent people at best.

Graham Smith wrote:-
"I would agree with P_Trembath (31) that the choice facing Cornwall councillors as they contemplate their 30th November budget is not necessarily between support for the Cornish language and speech therapy."
Thank you Graham, I hope that your "street cred" amongst the Kernowphobic has not been unduly compromised.

Graham Smith wrote:-
"But there are choices to be made and perhaps the elected politicians could ask more questions about what the various options are. Indeed, the speech therapy budget was cut without even reference to a Star Chamber."
Is that not always the problem, our elected representatives seem, in many ways, to be treated with similar contempt as the general public when it comes to being given the required information, and opportunity, to make an informed decision. It is also true to say that many of them do not put themselves out in an attempt to glean such information.

A synonym for nationalist is separatist and that is summed up perfectly in the following quote

"amongst the Kernowphobic"

When will you learn until to compromise you are on hiding to nothing, Graham is neither Judge nor jury, just taking pity. For a start nobody has a clue what Kernowphobic is or cares, my opinions remain rock solid in that nats are wasting money giving themselves an ego boast whilst needy people suffer and if you check the comments above, it was me who first pointed out Graham was playing games comment 11 not you trembath, this was your incorrect first comment

"fluent speaker is "subbed" a mere £66.67."

Sorry to deflate your ego back down to earth with a bump, no offence Graham seems someone needs a cup of java

Andrew Jacks wrote:-
"A synonym for nationalist is separatist..."
Only to those who have no knowledge of the subject.

Andrew Jacks wrote:-
"this was your incorrect first comment
"fluent speaker is "subbed" a mere £66.67.""
It really does help if you try to keep up.
The topic of this thread is, in part, the amount that Cornwall Council contribute to the Cornish Language Partnership, therefore, my comment is correct.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I had no idea we were playing one upmanship, and quite frankly I left such games behind when I left school.

The only people who think they are fighting a war is you and AC, my comment was pointing out the error in doing so. Don’t bother answering I fail to see what value you bring, I will leave it to Dick Cole to judge the antics of this pair

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Andrew Jacks wrote:-
"The only people who think they are fighting a war is you and AC, my comment was pointing out the error in doing so. Don’t bother answering I fail to see what value you bring, I will leave it to Dick Cole to judge the antics of this pair"

The only one mentioning a war, is you.
The only thing that I "fight" is the insult and abuse that the Kernowphobic seem to think passes as debate.
I would have thought that you would have realised that I do not give in to bullying by now.

As Manager of the Cornish Language Partnership I find a discussion of this kind, setting up a simplistic opposition without the full background for either, questionable. Challenging expenditure is right and proper, but only from the full facts. To that end, here are a few facts about the provision for Cornish language.

1. The £20,000 investment from the Council has allowed us to lever funding of around £150,000 a year from outside Cornwall – from central government, Europe and other sources. This is money which would not have been available to Cornwall in any other way and is therefore not diverted by the Council from any other area of expenditure. In addition the Partnership is now beginning to earn income itself and has already exceeded its target in the current year.



2. The additional in-kind support refers to the access to advice, officer time and some services (accounting, human resources, IT support etc) available to us through being hosted by the council. The Partnership pays the Council for the provision of office premises, equipment and other services.



3. The investment has resulted directly in the creation of 2 full and 2 part time jobs in Cornwall and indirectly has supported other businesses and providers in Cornwall through the commissioning of resources, payment to freelance workers, purchase of supplies and services. The investment levered in remains in Cornwall and thus contributes directly to the economy.



4. Contrary to the assumption on the blog, people do ‘pay for their hobbies’. Those wishing to learn Cornish in evening classes pay for their classes, which are run by volunteers. Our involvement is in helping to support and train those volunteers, and ensuring that tutors are properly checked and work in accessible premises so that classes are available to all. We also promote the classes through our website.



5. We currently work directly with over 20 primary schools and several secondary schools and have delivered taster activities to many more. We work with youth groups and projects, with statutory bodies, with tourism and with businesses wishing to use Cornish to underline the distinctive origin of their goods. The demand from schools and other groups has grown considerably over the past few years and use of our translation service has also doubled.

Our work takes us also into the wider cultural sphere. In schools our staff and volunteers deliver enrichment activites which in teaching about Cornish educate and enthuse the children about the place in which they live, and in which we hope our young people will want to stay, and about the rich diversity of languages and cultures in Britain and Europe today – something which is particularly important in the multi-cultural society within we which we live. We work closely with other language communities across Europe and promote Cornwall internationally.



6. We are dependent on the wide range of volunteers with whom we work. In supporting them and arranging training activities for them we are also adding to their transferable skills.



7. We are entirely non-political. We cannot prevent political activists of any persuasion from using Cornish or indeed any other aspect of life in Cornwall to support their campaigns, but it is not of our choosing. Learning Cornish is something which is available to everyone in Cornwall whether they were born and bred here or whether they have chosen to make Cornwall their home and our aim is to make it accessible to all. Quite a few of those who are learning or have learnt Cornish have moved here from elsewhere and have been warmly welcomed. They see the language as a part of the rich culture of Cornwall which attracted them in the first place and something of which to be proud. Those who use our translation service and want to use the language for specific purposes also see a value in it, even though they may not necessarily wish to learn to speak it themselves.



Certainly in the current climate we should all be looking to make the most of our resources and seek efficiencies where possible, but perhaps we should also focus more on celebrating our assets and successes – in every sphere – and less on setting up false and divisive oppositions?

Graham, is there anyway you could set up a 'Like'/ 'Dislike' setting on here, so a comment doesn't necessarily have to be left to show support?
Anyway well said Jenefer Lowe.

Thanks, I'd tick it now if there was one :)

Care to share with us how you earn out of this Jenefer Lowe?

It’s funny but without any knowledge of Cornish I can easily converse with you which is the whole concept of languages. Shame we can not use this money to give the ability to autistic children.

It’s a complete waste of tax payer’s money, let the hobbyists pay for it, if they want clunk around in kilts, waiving flags and building borders at the Tamar.

Time for my run

Care to share with us how MUCH you earn out of this Jenefer Lowe?

Tell you what Saltashgaz, how about your lot get rid of all it's traditions that mean bu**er all these days, lets start with the monarchy and work down to May poles, I am sure much more money could be saved.......

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Care to share with us how MUCH you earn out of this Jenefer Lowe?

It’s a complete waste of tax payer’s money, let the hobbyists pay for it, if they want clunk around in kilts, waiving flags and building borders at the Tamar.


I'd guess she earns less than any one of the German hangers on within the monarchy, less than any civil servant who worked on the Lord Mayors Parade, I could go on like you do, but I wont, Cornish is a language older than England, and like any endangered species needs protecting from Hunters, fools with nothing better to do.