成人论坛

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I shall try again.

Hamilton did the only thing they could in sacking John McCormack. It was not Jim, a clash of 'parallel universes'.

Is this one to be removed too ?

After just recently leaving school, I know for a fact that people have been put off of signing up for the football team or for most team sports for that matter because of this macho image and this supposed "hairdryer" style of treatment. That may well work to motivate a small percentage of players, but for most it is something that is dreaded...

This man has no place coaching young players - all he and similar coaches will do is drive possible young talent to other sports. We cant allow this to happen especially considering the current situation in Scottish football.

#3

No they didn't: they were required to keep him informed about where his conduct fell short of what was expected. Procedural error! They failed and instead of warning him and then paying him off at the end of the season they messed it up. Dismissal is a legal process and his award was despite Lord Woolman finding him not a 'credible witness'!!

Its a belter of a story though: changing in front of a lassie and making a joke about comparing genitalia among the lads (not of course put this polite way by the 'Cowboy').

Inappropriate sexist behaviour like this would still have been inappropriate in the days of Stein Jim..the difference now is that that females have legal protection from it and we should all welcome that culture clash or not.

成人论坛 article 1st September 2010

"He (the judge) rejected Mr McCormack's suggestion that she fabricated her account of him changing in front of her in the dressing room ."

It is clear then that he DID strip off when she was present .

You can't remove my post on something which the 成人论坛 itself reported .

As an expat living in Switzerland for more than 25 years and supporting England and its way of life I am shocked!!! Hardly anyone sings the National Anthem and hardly anyone has respect for the other country's national anthem..... what is wrong with this world? Am switching off football right now!Respect is a matter of manners...Is everyone now in England brought up so badly?

No5

You are incorrect. A gross misconduct dismissal (deliberately exposing yourself) does not need prior warnings.

The judge (let's drop the lord stuff) has taken it upon himself to rule in favour of Mr McCormack on a miniscule (if at all) technicality.

Further, I have never been informed by an employer that I was not permitted to expose myself to female employees. IT'S OBVIOUS !

No7

You're on the wrong thread . Nothing about England here .

#8

Technicality or not, procedurally Hamilton got it wrong and m'Lord (lets drop the judge stuff!) found against them. Dress it up any way you like but that was the outcome. This outcome wholly merits the term 'fact'!

But since the facts don't always tell the whole story this was all despite m'lord thinking that the cowboy was not a credible witness.

I'm not saying the Cowboy was morally or in any other way going about his business in an appropriate fashion! And I'm neither supporting or defending any aspect of Employment Law but the outcome went badly for the club financially when any decent legal advice would have avoided it. In the same way that Clyde could have avoided paying out dosh to Graham Roberts. Dismissal is a legal process and Directors and HR Personnel should know this better than others..except lawyers!

No10

Your confidence in Scotland's judicial system is breathtaking .

Also, seeing as you personally weren't addressing the judge there would be no need to give him such a title .
The title of 'Lord' is usually given, rarely earned. Whereas, the title of 'Judge' is always earned and never given.

The screaming, bug eyed, foul mouthed ranting accepted at some clubs, would be completely unacceptable in a lawyers office or a even a building site.

Of course it wouldnt be accepted in these places, the pressure is at almost zero compared to a football match. I work in a kitchen and have done for 19 years, asking someone nicely if they, 'wouldn't mind speeding up a little since we have 10 tables on order, and, oh yeah, if you wouldn't mind seasoning the dish correctly before you try to serve it' just does not work.
When you have 100 guests in the restuarant demanding a perfect dish every time, and most at the same time the pressure about as high as there possibly is.
Think how many fans are sat in a stadium demanding you get it right, and not asking nicely either............

No disrespect but as an office worker you arent really qualified to comment I feel.

Not an issue of confidence at all..that's a completely different issue..but if its justice you want then I'm not sure m'lord judge will call in Taggart to establish the exact facts in this case! Or even the Sheriff!

Somebody somewhere needs to teach Hamilton Accies that when they sign contracts for staff they need to honour them. Every year they sign about a dozen players during the close season and release about half of them before Christmas by "mutual consent".

You would also think that people at Hamilton Accies knew a bit about John McCormack's coaching style and personality before they offered him the job and gave him a contract. Is anyone at Accies culpable for employing someone with the wrong outlook and approach, or for not ending the contract in a proper legal manner? If Hamilton were expecting him to change his approach to coaching or how he behaved was any of this spelled out prior to his appointment.

It seems in this case that Hamilton did what they do with players they've given contracts to and then change their minds about... fire them after about 1 game!

The Accies chairman is in the news today talking about how the club are now debt free... hope the judge makes them pay up a decent chunk of Cowboy's outstanding contract.

Here's a few other ex-Accies employees who had contracts which were soon ended by "mutual consent" in the recent past:

Jack Ross after 2 competitive matches
Gary Mason
Marvin Andrews
David Van Zanten
Kenny Deuchar
Stuart Elliot

and possibly around 6 others in the last 15 months!

"Evolve or die" is not part of Darwin's evolutionary theory (the corollary "the survival of the fittest" was a later addition championed by Thomas Huxley). "Whatever survives, survives" would be a better summary.

There are animals and plants that have changed little since the days of the dinosaurs.

Well said Mr Imagine Reason, my argument but with class...

"Does the softly-softly coaching approach work?"

All Scottish teams out of the Europa League already.
Scotland's woeful performance last night.
The diabolically awful standard of play in the SPL.

I think your question is clearly answered.

#5 wrote:
"Its a belter of a story though: changing in front of a lassie and making a joke about comparing genitalia among the lads (not of course put this polite way by the 'Cowboy')."

In my world if some female are in men's changing room then it's absurd from her to complain about anything she sees/hears.

Rob04/piorek

I鈥檓 interested to know if Cormack鈥檚 dismissal resulted in new case law to do with employer/employee relations?

Doesn鈥檛 look that way from the 成人论坛 article.

Hamilton FC would only be entitled to evoke summary dismissal proceedings for gross misconduct, where Cormack鈥檚 behaviour was already listed as an act of gross misconduct in Hamilton鈥檚 grievance and disciplinary procedures.

But football likes to behave as if the law doesn鈥檛 apply to them and the judge may have had no choice in his ruling.

I suspect (but I don鈥檛 really know as I don鈥檛 have the facts) Hamilton either didn鈥檛 clearly address this in their G&D procedure, or they didn鈥檛 follow their own rules for dismissal.

If so then I think it is the correct ruling, even if Cormack鈥檚 behaviour was out of line.

He may have been known as 鈥淐owboy鈥� but we already have enough cowboys in the boardrooms.

Sorry Jim, whilst I agree with your sentiments, welcome to the real world. Shouting swearing and disrespect abounds in the modern world. Look and listen to the TV. Big Brother, documentaries, films and so called dramas if they were bleeped it would be like watching old silent movies. Sadly the english language and our society is now devoid of censorship, it is continually degenerating, and no longer refined.

C'mon Jim. I fondly remember an article you wrote years ago about the various jobs you have done. You recounted a tale while working as a furniture remover. You were helping to cart an old fashioned sofa-bed down a stair when it sprung open pinning you to the stair wall by the throat ! I am pretty sure you're resulting language was somewhat more colourful than an 'Oh dear'.

There is a place for the considered use of strong language. A dressing room or training ground may be one such place. Being trapped by a sofa might be another.

In Cowboy's case I have always thought him a bit of a throwback and probably a boor. However Hamilton were found to have sacked him unfairly. They should have followed their own procedures and they do have 'previous' if you're face does'nt fit. #14 makes a good point.

To be fair to Jim, I don't think this blog is about the court case it's self, simply using it as an example to provoke further discussion on the style of coaching we employ here in Scotland.

It's clear that something is wrong, and most of the time, that stems from grass roots. As far as I can see, not much has changed since my ill fated days in Boys Club Football.

Last night on my way home from Hampden, I had a discussion with my friend about the need to change. He championed the need to turn our players into winners. Install a 'win-at-all costs' mentality into players at a young age. Get rid of the 'everyone's a winner' attitude, and allow the best to flourish and praise them for it.

That IMO is what has been happening for years, and is exactly what we need to turn away from. At an age when young players are still developing physically, there should be no competition. Youths should be encourage to try develop their skills, to take on a player, or try and pass the ball out of defence without the fear of being dropped or shouted at for losing. Competitive football should not rear it's head until at the very least under 17 level. We need to encourage our youngsters to play football first, and learn to win later. And ultimately, what kind of person, needs to learn to win? Surely, which the right attitude, people want to do their best at everything they do?

Failure to change will mean as a nation we continue to produce players molded like Scott Brown, Paul Hartley and Lee McCulloch rather than Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo and others like them.

I am still troubled by you're 'genuine respect' point Jim. I would point to Alex Ferguson. Widely regarded as a top coach but how was this achieved ? There are numerous accounts from former players that paint the man as a monster and a tyrant, much less a bully. On that example it would seem that respect is earned on the basis of fear.

I use Ferguson as he is still working but that are several other accounts of the great managers of the past that strongly hint that 'respect' was a euphemism for terrified.

The world has indeed moved on. Racism, sexism and any other isms are now unacceptable in most workplaces and rightly so.

Football dressing rooms ? I don't know Jim. Ask Fergie ?

Iain Jack

It is impossible for an employer to list in their 'disciplinary procedures' every example of what they consider as gross misconduct.

Hamilton did not need to have 'exposure or incitement to expose' in their disciplinary procedures as both are CRIMINAL offences.

What Hamilton did wrong was minor. Their belief was correct.

The lady employee should pursue criminal charges and file a civil lawsuit too. She may also file a civil lawsuit against the club however that would be unjust.


Rob04

It's not a judges job to find the truth, simply what can be proved.

#25

Good we agree on something..
------------------------------
Jim

Yes SAF honed his man-management skills but I'm sure his reputation goes before him Jim with any new players coming into OF! And he did terrorise Becks in that famous dressing room incident. All coaches will lose the plot now and again Jim: Strachan with McGeady? Its a high stress emotive environment.

baldy hibby

your recollection of jim spence being pinned to a wall by a sofa had me in stitches.
i wonder if the softly softly approach to coaching worked during the scotland game on tuesday night, i thought we were going to get another jim mclean vs john barnes moment when wee chick tried to ask some searching questions after the game, our national manager has previous too, just ask graham hogg, wee chick was brave or just stupid.
is there a right way or wrong way to coach, you live or die with the results on the park and coach's will do anything to win a game. every game will have a different approach, coaching spl team's to win takes every kind of coaching technique from softly softly to setting off the alarms in the hotel where the opposition are staying so they don't have proper sleep,allegedly, a coach will do anything to get players to play for him and run for him, wee bit different for scotland and craig levein though, just getting players to turn up seems difficult sometimes.
when you coach and you win , nobody questions your coaching abilities. when you draw, you'll have some questions to answer. when you loose, you better hope the contact is bullet proof.

Piorek

鈥渋mpossible for an employer to list 鈥︹�︹�︹�︹��. every example鈥�

Of course they can鈥檛. They can however refer to the type of conduct so that everyone knows where the line is drawn. If they are going to sack someone they have to investigate the circumstances and if it is established that it was an act of gross misconduct, then they can discipline them appropriately.

This has to work both ways for example if a female member of staff were to make false accusations.

With no documentation supporting Hamilton鈥檚 decision, the judge overturned it.

It wasn鈥檛 a ruling for or against the coach or the physio.

Hamilton failed to act properly in this. They failed in their obligations to both the coach AND the physio.

鈥淗amilton did not need to have 'exposure or incitement to expose' in their disciplinary procedures as both are CRIMINAL offences鈥�

True, they don鈥檛 need to, but many responsible employers do list criminal offenses, physical assault on a fellow employee being just one.

Hamilton鈥檚 actions displayed a complete disregard for individuals鈥� rights and if this case had not come to light they would have continued to act in this manner to the determent of others.

It was attitudes like this, if not the circumstances, that led to the Bosman ruling.

I鈥檓 more concerned that some may see the judge鈥檚 ruling as confirmation that the type of behaviour in question as being somehow acceptable.

Goodness knows what effect this will have on other coaches behaviour.

One thing's for sure, if they read the wrong things into this ruling then it won't be good for the players.

He should have asked her to leave and THEN dropped his Dacks.
It appears that both of them had a lot of class. Unfortunately none of the class that they have is very high!

#28

Good point ally9. Jim McLean decking John Barnes is one example. Check out youtube and see the bold Chick getting monstered by Walter Smith and Archie Knox. Both very much still in the game.

I would not want to be in the firing line when the likes of Jim Jeffries, Yogi Hughes or Terry Butcher go off on one either.

Jim reckons Sir Alex has mellowed. Rob04 mentions Becks taking a boot in the kisser. Add in other players that were sold as they did not fit the 'Man Utd. ethos' and the continued nonsense not speaking to the English 成人论坛 and I see a man deeply entrenched in his own methods. Yet he is arguably the best club manager ever.

Jim may be letting his good nature overcome his good sense. I think that dressing rooms today are as robust and non-PC as they ever were. ally9 is spot on. The fans don't care if their manager is a monster as long as he is a winning monster.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Hello Moderator, May I ask why I fell foul of the House Rules ? Thank you.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

have yer say but sign yer furkin name! tadger! im furkin beelin at you spence!

have yer say but sign yer furkin name. spence ya tadger ye