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Jim,
I think the sum realised for Goodwillie is entirely due to Stephen Thomson and his firm stand sets an example that all Scottish clubs would do well to follow.
He announced the minimum price and would not be deflected from this and, as a result has cleared a large chunk of Utd.'s bank debt.

Rangers have for some years appeared to think that their name / reputation alone will result in Scottish clubs being forced to sell to them at a price favourable to Rangers.
As you say, there is a difference between achieving a good deal and making insulting offers.
This may well backfire on them as surely no club will consider the first offer from
Rangers to be any where near their final bid.

Could well be a turning point, all it needs is clubs to develop some backbone.

Spot on Jim. The clubs don't seem desperate to sell any more. Dundee United and Hibs in particular are taking tough decisions to cut their cloth in difficult times, and as a result they can hold out for the right price.

There's an insight into Rangers' negotiation technique

Correct Jim. These are difficult times for Rangers. They have bid low on a number of players and have lost the lot. Having the sheriff chap on the door over an alleged tax debt will not help.

#s 1 and 2. Agree entirely. Every club approached by Rangers have seen the light. Offer fairly or no deal seems to be order of the day.

As an aside Blackburn have got excellent potential on the cheap. If he can settle down Goodwillie is a good prospect. Arsenal have paid £12m to Southampton for a 17 year old.

This may be what are troubled by Mr. Moderator

#4

Best part of that article is the second last paragraph. The Rangers spokesman likes his irony for sure - how many bids were made for Goodwillie via the media? Five, six, seven? For years this club have conducted potential transfer deals via a compliant media (Boyd, Naismith etc).

Regarding one of the main themes of the article, I find it interesting that some journalists were peddling the line that it would be good for Scottish football for Goodwillie to go to Ibrox instead of down south. How that exactly works, getting a lesser fee for a star player, I'm unsure.

My take on it is that this is a great piece of business by Utd: they've got as much top dollar as they're going to get in the short term (although more Dorrans/Fletchers heading south may change that), whilst also adding a hefty clause for future transfer. A hefty transfer in a year or so might see Utd clear their debt, allowing them to start retaining more players or buy new ones, which is always good for optimism amongst fans.

Had Rangers bought Goodwillie there was always a chance, however small or otherwise, that the pending 'big' tax case would abruptly end payment instalments, or that add-on clauses would never be triggered (Michael Ball anyone?), all to the detriment of Dundee Utd FC. How that uncertainty benefits anyone up here, I don't know.

Off topic:
Pretty much as good a result re the FIFA ranking as one might hope for in a friendly (it was worth 537 points, had we beaten Spain in a friendly, we'd have got 600). This will bump our coeff marginally, but with three eminently winnable ties coming up, I suspect a major climb before the turn of the year (top 40 is a possibility).

Some slick passing again tonight in poor conditions - looking good.

A good night :-)

The process of buying players is a two way street. St Johnstone, Hibs, Dundee Utd etc generally need to use players as a source of revenue and have little to gain by pricing themselves out of the market for largely unproven players. Murray Davidson has 'potential' but as yet untested at any meaningful level. It also seems to me that a number of teams (my own motherwell) are stymied at the moment in that only two new arrivals so far and doubtless waiting to see what happens with Murphy before any further movement can happen. In the last two weeks we have had Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Inverness all lose players they signalled were on their way.

I believe Rangers may have under-bid but not by the margins implied here - and to be frank, Celtic have also lost players after multiple bids or bids deemed risible by selling teams.

After all the discussion we have had about the lack of money in the game, the inability to attract paying punters it seems sensible to me that the purchasing strategy ought to be aligned to the business plans. Fans will always call for top players at any price but their lack of investment denies them the right to get on their high horse.

Scottish football has nothing to gain by starting a 90s style 'arms race' around these largely unproven players.

#7

Scottish Football has everything to gain by ensuring that these largely unproven players are sold on (or at least sold out of Scottish football) at the highest premium.

The OF will never be able to do another 90s style arms race.

#7

I don't think starting an "arms race" was the implication in Jims Blog.

It's up to each club to determine the value of their players if approached by another and this doesn't mean placing unrealistic values on players, it means having the ability to set a price and sticking to it.
Obviously clubs should do this taking their own circumstances into account but St.Johnstone weren't founded to supply other clubs "on the cheap" and I would presume that they don't want to sell Davidson at all, which is their right given that they are trying to stay in SPL and improve.
If Rangers or any other club offer silly money, unlikely in the case of Rangers, then I'm sure Saints would take it.
After all Inter are selling Samuel E'to and Arsenal are selling Nasri for twice what they paid.

There is also the matter of tribunals which decide on a compensation value for young players based upon their time at the club.

Scottish football clubs will never improve if they sell off their assets cheaply and unless there is a compelling need to have a fire sale neither should they.

Rangers bids for Goodwillie were amateurish as were there insinuations that Thompson sold Goodwillie for less money to Blackburn. Thompson inherited the club as a family asset (or liability given our debts!) and would never accept less money for a player just to spite another team . . . even if that team was Rangers. There's also no chance Rangers could match the £20k a week on offer for Goodwillie at Blackburn.

Agree that McCoist has been badly let down by the negotiating carried out by Rangers. Unclear who that is but they've been very happy to continue blundering on bidding anonymously as far as the media are concerned.

Rangers (and Celtic) should take note of the wider situation at United where Goodwillie, Russell, Allan, Armstrong, Watson and Kenneth emerged from the youth set up, and Conway, Scott Robertson, Dixon and Swanson developed at the club from a young age. The Old Firm used to watch other SPL clubs develop these players and then pinch them for derisory sums. Now the Championship and to a lesser extent Premier League have seen the value and talent in young Scots and their money dwarves the Old Firm's so that avenue is closing down.

The Old Firm need to now focus on their own academies and the reasons for the lack of first team players they produce, as their finances are now on a par with English League One money. As for the rest of the SPL, it's very good news there is now more competition for young Scottish players as the talent is clearly there.

Jim Spence,

I enjoyed your interview with Neil Lennon and Billy Connolly after the Aberdeen match and hope that bird missed you.
What is it ? I haven't heard it mentioned before.

morbhoy, that made me laugh too. A brief return to form for the Big Yin. I think it's a hawk or kestrel or something they keep at the ground to scare off those crazy Doric seagulls. Tam Cowan and Stuart Cosgrove were talking about that - and an owl at McDiarmid Park, I think - on their programme the other week.

Neither of the OF have the finances at this point for the domestic or European transfer market. Celtic need to shed more players and current rumours suggest McCourt may be next in line. Rangers were left a busted flush by the financial genius of SDM. The current tax case though should properly be labelled HMRC1: the liabilities hidden in the books identified by Whyte for which there was alleged to be a £3m contingency fund. Clearly Rangers object to the 50% fine above that, which other businesses have to pay. Oh dear. But HMRC2 and the bigger tax case (alleged to be £24m) is still out there waiting. Fire sale at Ibrox?

# 13,

Like your labelling. HMRC2 may rise up. It has been alleged as high as £40m. Will it be pursued ? I sincerely hope not. It cannot be in the interests of Scottish Football to see Rangers do a Dundee FC ?

#6, Off topic.

I want to get my head around this co-efficient stuff. Is there a site that explains ? I'm with you. Getting itchy over the next qualifiers.

#12 markrp

Thanks for the info.
I don't know whether it's a relatively new addition to the Aberdeen staff but I've never heard it mentioned before.
Wonder what the owl is for, have they got mice at McDiarmid Park ?

Good to hear managers/reporters and celebs having a laugh though,just fancy Jim Spence gets paid for that, wonder if there's any vacancies?

#14

HMRC2 is still being pursued by the tax authorities. If Rangers have been avoiding paying tax through their special fund fund then they should pay up or enter administration simple as that. Only a handful of British clubs went down this route: many of the big English teams didn't touch it at all. It will be a disaster for Scottish football no doubt about it, but then all down to the genius of SDM 'chasing moonbeams' with money he didn't have.

Can't see where they will have a contingency fund big enough to cover it if the bill is £20m+. It may all be unfair on McCoist but he guided the team losing to Malmo: a loss which might prove very costly for them in more ways than one. This may have been the one time where they really couln't afford not to get to the CL groups.

#17,

Very hard to comment further. I was an Excise Officer for twenty years in what seems a previous life. Pre-dates HMRC thankfully.

Will it be pursued ? I am sorry to repeat myself. Politically, the notion of Rangers going to the wall may be untenable. You may find that a settlement of your HMRC1, allied with a 'slap on the wrist' financially will be the outcome.

The Civil Service are experts at 'real politik' . None more so when the political masters indicate their thinking.

United had every right to reject Rangers bid even if they did offer the required price. No-one wants to see their star players being sold to a rival and coming back to score against them in future matches. Teams should be prepared to pay more for star players of other clubs in the same league as them.

For more Scottish related posts please visit:

#18
Take your point but HMRC2 must be the real worry. I think Arsenal also used this type of fund at one time and had to pay up.

Regarding HMRC1 - the use of sheriff officers in a very public way at ibrox surely means that this is a serious pursuit and that they want a wider audience to know it. Surprised if Rangers didn't have the money to pay this. Its the '50% Fine' part they are objecting too.

And still very little criticism EVER in most of the media of SDM's financial management at ibrox. Blinded by the cups!

#18/#20

When this scheme first came to notice and the media were wondering which clubs would use it to attract big name players I recall Brian Quinn, then Celtic Chairman and a former big chief at Bank of England stating that Celtic would never pursue this tactic.
At the time I thought that perhaps it was too good to be true and there must be doubts about the legality of such a scheme if he was against it, looks like Mr. Quinn was a wise man.

HMRC uses baillifs in England and Sheriff's Officers in Scotland to collect outstanding debts but first of all they have to visit premises to ascertain if there are sufficient assets to cover the debt which is probably why they were at Ibrox the other day.
This is normal procedure and Rangers are no different and should be treated no differently to any other business in debt to the taxpayer.
The fact that this is in the public domain should prevent any favourable treatment from HMRC, no football club is too big to go into administration when you look at some of the companies that have been forced down that route.

I agree that it's surprising that they didn't pay the outstanding tax if they are objecting to the fine.
Strange times at Ibrox.

#14

Not as far as I'm aware. It's not as difficult to work out your current ranking points as people would have you believe, although it is very time consuming (you have to check each opponents ranking at the time you played them).

I'm in the process of making a web-site dedicated to this (much like the excellent Uefa co-eff one provided by Bert Kassies), but it is somewhat time-consuming as international results are never all reported on one site (e.g. ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ often miss a Vanatua v Cook Islands or similar).

You can find a pretty decent explanation of the FIFA ranking calculations on wiki

#20

Did you know that when you overeat, some of your senses are dulled temporarily?

I think hearing and sight are most affected, due to increased levels of blood sugar firing around eyeballs and the increased blood pressure in your ears.

I think an overindulgence in succulent lamb and fine wines may have created an almost permanent state of hear no evil, see no evil.

I guess the speak no evil part (follow) follows thereafter.

Good blog Jim. Remember though your not allowed to be openly critical of the old firm. You cannot use the phrases "new chairman" "taxman" "skint" "amateurish behaviour" and "what warchest?" in the same article. Ask Chick Young - he'll remind you of the club rules

The old firm seem to be quite slow on the uptake that things in Scotland have changed.
Gone are the days when all it took was a nod and a wink to a promising young players agent to get him to put in a transfer request and then for which ever club it was to swoop in with a derisory offer. The subsequent media headlines of "being held prisoner" and "denied his boyhood dream" pressuring the club to sell at a cut-price rate.
A couple of seasons ago Hamilton rejected a widely reported offer of £700,000 for James McCarthy from a Premiership team; a week later celtic offered £300,000.
There is a huge market in England now where these players can go and earn much more than the old firm can pay - the only way forward for celtic and rangers now is to stop robbing Scottish clubs and to pay fair price for these players.

#25

As far I can recall, there was never any mention (from a source) regarding the value of Celtic's bid, it was always reported thus: 'is understood to be in the region of...', 'thought to be...', 'according to sources close to the club...', etc.

Portsmouth offered marginally under £500k a week before the Celtic bid (according to sources)

first bit in brackets should have read 'from a stated source'

#25

As I posted previously it's up to those clubs outwith OF to have the courage to stick to their valuation unless they are really desperate for the money.

I would like to know how the OF actually forced other clubs to sell to them, how is that possible?

#28

I suspect they have not. If an Old Firm club have offered x amount to another club, it is up to that club to decide on whether to accept or reject such a bid. In making a bid (public, as they invariably are) it also alerts others to the availability of the player. This being the case there is an immediate market for the player.

That nobody else has ever outbid the Old Firm for a player signed (Note: the importance of the word 'signed') by the Old Firm for such a derisory sum as stated above somewhat suggests that what others view as being derisory was, in full fact, the players actual market value.

This is obviously different from the OF being ultimately outbid for a player, having offered a 'derisory' sum.

What people often forget is that the sums offered, by any club, is normally that club's undervaluation of a player; an opening gambit if you will. Who that club is and where they play has a massive effect on what such a valuation would be. Eg. for a club playing in the EPL, with a guaranteed non-footballing income stream of c£25m each season, McCarthy was probably 'undervalued' at the value posted revaccies; Celtic's undervalued amount is based on their circumstances, ie. their guaranteed non-footballing income is about £10m per year. Essentially, clubs really do have to factor in 'what is this player actually worth to us'.

Interestingly, I recall that some Hamilton fans rated McCarthy at about £3-4m. This is a fair rating of a player, but is it a fair valuation? Was McCarthy worth £3-4m to Accies, or was he worth perhaps £3-4m to some other team in another league?

A very curious and complex concept is the value of a football player.

The PCW report of this week shows that St Johnstone far from needing to sell Murray Davidson have more money in the bank than any of the other SPL teams, so Rangers offer was never going to succeed. I have been speaking to a Wolves fan on another forum as they are also interested in Davidson and he had assumed Saints were looking for 2 to 3 million. When I said I thought they could get him for 500K he was very surprised as Premiership teams now pay that for reserves.
The old firm as certainly being priced out of the market which in a way may not be too bad a thing for the rest of the league. While they can pay wages way in excess of anyone else but with no star names and clubs in the championship getting players they want they should not be able to roll the other teams over as often and may try and develop their own talent.

# 20 & 21,

Very valid points. The visit was very public, which in itself is curious to say the least. Was something leaked to the press ? If so from whom ? Would not have been the CS in my day. In any case I cannot see the taxman, representing the Government ( UK in this case), bringing Rangers to a crisis.

# 22,

Thank you. Will explore further.

Good article, but I don't see how the Goodwillie transfer sets a precedent. Hearts held out for a deal worth £9m when they sold Craig Gordon to Sunderland, well beyond the initial offers that were made. How many other Scottish clubs would have turned down £5m for a goalie?

30 The Old Firm can just about compete with the better Championship sides in terms of transfer fees / wages, but come nowhere near what the Premiership clubs can offer.

Goodwillie will find it hard to score in a real league ..... Boyd and Milller were both failures in the Championship !

Strachan brought down plenty of OF players and they could cope with the Championship which is a higher standard than the poor SPL

Bet Goodwillie scores only five or six this season in a real league.Playing Inverness CT and St Johnstone 4 times a season is easy no wonder Scottish football is at an all time low

yawn, I see the Interwebs answer to valium is back on^^

zzzzzzzzzz

Scottish mid-table First Division player Graham Dorrans seems to be doing alright in the EPL these days.

could it not also be that the players are playing their part in not going on the cheap to rangers/celtic. Whereas before they may have jumped at the chance to play for the old firm that they would have played hardball with their chairmen and rangers/celtic knew this and would be able to negotiate better.

Now that the SPL isnt such an attractive place to play it's stale, boring and whatever players would much rather try their luck in bigger leagues than just continue to play in the SPL albeit with a different club.

If Rangers want to be able to attract players they are gonna have to be part of the solution to make the SPL a much more attractive product as paying better wages than the rest of the SPL clubs isnt cutting it any more.

#23

Though spare a thought for poor Chic Young who must be suffering from infant-like separation-anxiety now that the near demi-god financial whizz genius of SDM has left the building...leaving a 'great footballing institution' hocked up to the eyeballs moaning about how they should have to pay the tax to Her Majexty that all other business employees are subject to..perhaps they think its like Tesco's and they should get a loyalty discount, or just like Her Majesty they should be exempt from tax..

#31

You'll like the papers this morning about Rangers considering legal action against HM's finest! I wonder if their defence of the bigger tax action will be: that they personally didn't do it, a big boy did it and then ran away when everyone turned their backs and left 1p in the till; that it was the fault of mysterious rogue directors (sporting Chelsea tops possibly and coming back from an away match in Europe) who unbeknown to the financial genius of SDM managed to infiltrate the books and set up this fund; and that the fund was initiated on the basis of the best independent accountancy advice and had nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of a sad lonely desparado buying success at any price.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#35 and #39

I alternate between just completely ignoring the Slabber or actually having a right good laugh at such a transparent, and to be frank, not very clever attempt to wind people up. Probably the highlight of his week...

So lets give it the attention it deserves and at least chuckle at what a complete waste of time all the daft and pointless drivel is.

We all know that the self -deprecating Scots are harder on themselves that Slabber could ever be - its like being savaged by a gumsy dog!

St Johnstone v Dunfirmerline ..... attracted 3,600, no wonder any decent player worth his salt wants to leave this wee diddy SPL

Even Inverness CT v Rangers attracted only 6,000

What crowd will St Johnestone v Dunfirmerline fixture attract (2000?)

League 2 teams and even Blue Sqaure teams attract bigger crowds

# 35 and 39 ..... How many goals will Goodwillie score in the big boys league ?.I have predicted 5 or 6!

The last decent forward from Scotland was Brian McClair 20 years ago!

The Czech Republic,Lithuania and Liechenstien will again frustrate Scotland.Enjoy watching 2012 from home again

@41.At 11:39 14th Aug 2011, tomslaford wrote:
St Johnstone v Dunfirmerline ..... attracted 3,600
Even Inverness CT v Rangers attracted only 6,000
....................................................................................
Given the England has a population more than ten times of Scotland , that would be the the equalivant of 36,000 and 60,000 in your country , only Liverpool and Newcastle yesterday had an attendences that was in that region .
17,000 at Wigan must be good considering its a rugby town ...

41. At 11:39 14th Aug 2011, tomslaford wrote:
St Johnstone v Dunfirmerline ..... attracted 3,600
...
What crowd will St Johnestone v Dunfirmerline fixture attract (2000?)
-------------------------------------------------------

I genuinely think you need to head to your local adult learning centre.

#43 I stand corrected .....what a silly billy I am !

#42 Population has nothing to do with success .... Uruguay have won the World Cup twice and have won the South America more times than Brazil!..Albania are ranked higher than Scotland!.

Half of Scotland support one of the OF,that is why the other teams in the SPL attract only meagre crowds.That is also why the non OF can only attract poor standard players due to dwindling resources.

The OF are giants of a poor national league,and when they play in Europe they lose to Swedish,Portuguse,Dutch ...teams who are now classed as second rate leagues

1998 is a long time ago ...... did Baldyhibby have hair then ?

For once you have hit the nail on the head with the problem of those who live miles from either old firm ground but for some reason decide that thats the team for them. Well in most cases their level of support consists of buying a replica top to wear for 365 days of the year and watching games on the TV.

As to your second rate leagues, you could have picked better examples. I will leave it to you to find out which one of your choices was the highest points scorer in the whole of Europe on the official UEFA coefficients for season 2010/11.

If population has 'nothing to do with success' are we to believe that the Faroe Islands have as good a chance as China at winning a WCup? Population (or to be more precise, the demographic split) is a proxy for resources and what pool you have available. Basic point really.

In Tom's fantasy world Uraguay are like Brazil on the international stage.

In the modern age small countries tend not to win big international tournaments and in the list of WC winners Uraguay are the clear exception to the rule (but both won between 1930 and 1950 when not a lot competed in the event).

Tom - who can't quite understand that the exception to the rule doesn't rewrite the rule.

Shockingly poor level of education. Did he even attend school?

#43 & 46,

You must be very careful when challenging tomslaver. Our esteemed moderator removed my riposte, however ( hopefully ) humourous. My #39 was up for three days, but was subsequently removed.

Perhaps the moderator has plooks and I touched a raw nerve ? I have no idea why it was removed otherwise. There is little point in blogs such as these if one is unable to respond to utter rubbish.

#46 Don't rise to the bait. Clearly the self reference to 'silly billy' is a euphemism.

Clearly has an IQ that would make Rab C look like a genius by comparison.

At the same time Aberdeen continue to let any decent players go for a song! Chris Maquire being a good example - same age as Goodwillie more International under 21 caps and more goals at that level and Aberdeen get 400k as opposed to 2.8m for Goodwillie. Little wonder the Dons will continue to go down the drain while Stuart Milne has control of the club!

Spot on Dave Gordon! Aberdeen are a hobby Milne is now tired of, but he won't leave the club until he has made money from Pittodrie. His "management" of the club is a disgrace. What is the point of having a new stadium if you have no product. What is the point of developing youth talent if it is to be sold at the first bidding at bargain basement prices

As a Rangers supporter, I'm not particularly bothered about the failure to sign Goodwillie, BUT, if Rangers buy from a foreign club instead, that's money gone from the Scottish game, to counterbalance the money coming in from "abroad".

Further, if it is agreed that Goodwillie is a talented player, it escapes me how so many can see his departure as good for the Scottish game.
Is the SPL not (even) poorer for his departure?

See past your anti-Old-Firm agendas, for goodness' sake, they are counter-productive.

#47/48

Agreed and its the same mindless repetitive rubbish time after time. There are issues there that need more professional attention!

#49
Good point on McGuire though he was coming to the end of his contract. It might have been more useful to AFC if they had got him to sign a contract extension and then he might have gone for a better price. That said, the player might have wanted away asap because the club have been shambolic on and off the park in recent years. I agree with you in principle though: Aberdeen have been very poorly managed from the top during Milne's tenure. And unless Pa Broon can stop the rot..

The gulf in class between Hearts and Spurs tonight is on Grand Canyon proportions. I'm afraid Scottish football is amateurish in comparison to the Premiership.

Beeb, you are of course correct, but there are two major points that need to be remembered. 1 Scottish football in total has less money than most top English sides, so investment in players is limited. No Van der Vaart's here !
2. Scottish football is plagued by the old boys club of merry-go-round coaches where there are no new ideas or approaches and tonight you can witness the type of player that makes it as a professional in the SPL - battlers who have poor technique and poor movement. Spurs are a big physical side with pace AND technical ability. Hearts have less pace, poorer physique and so there lack of technical ability is exposed to the max. Dire. Apart from the OF, no other Scottish club would have done much better. The majority of the SPL is at the standard of League 1 or 2 in England.

#53

People need a bit of a reality check.

If Hearts could comfortably invest around £150m in their playing squad (or even a tenth of it) as Spurs did over a 16 month period just to 2010 then I'm sure there would be a more competitive game here. Begs a question about what you were expecting to happen.

#55

Rob - I agree, this is fundamentally about money. Some of the previous blogs about population, size of the country etc are mis-guided. Given the amount of foreign talent bought in simply flies in the face of any demographic analysis. Even here in Scotland there has been a number of imported players despite the dire financial straits.

Last night at Tynecastle was all about the gulf in financial muscle. As for the old firm looked like a familiar tale.

Ah well - off to check the SPL table again (while it lasts!!)

Yes Uriah a familiar tale with Celtic: not sharp enough against determined opposition; either no or poor distribution into two physically weak forwards who are strangers to themselves and each other far too much of the time, neither of whom like to play in the box; and then the tactical desparation replacing big forwards with the usual midgets and hoping this would work.

Its got to the stage when I'm more astonished when Samaras has an average game. Abjectly woeful player who should have stuck to his day job as an extra in the Zombie movie being shot in Glasgow.

They only need a score draw to go through but a shocking performance. If this Swiss side can actually score a goal first though, Celtic will be in trouble.

@57.At 10:34 19th Aug 2011, Rob04 wrote:
..................................................................
Not sure Celtic will be in trouble Rob04 , even if they lose . Sion have a transfer imbargo on them and three players last night were not given UEFA clearance to play , so it looks basically like Celtic will be put through no matter what the out come .

Sorry stand corrected ( on the bbc website ) 4 players .

"Sion ignored warnings from Fifa not to field players they consider ineligible.
Jose Goncalves, Pascal Feindouno, Mario Mutsch and Gabri all took part against the governing body's wishes."

Take your point Murray but irrespective of any FIFA involvement the performance was very poor and that was really the substance of my point.

And FIFA may well take the view that they can re-impose the embargo after the case before the court of arbitration and take no retrospective action. The problem is that no one knows what FIFA will do. So best to win the tie in my view.

#60,

Spot on Rob, Celtic should concentrate on winning the tie although I think FIFA may actually mean it this time, but as you say, who knows ?

It is all very depressing. Perhaps Celtic just had an off-night, it happens, and will be OK after the second leg. Similarily Rangers at a rocking Ibrox should get through although playing a new centre half just off the plane must worry Gers fans. Looks a good signing though.

To see a good Hearts side dismantled by a team playing their first competitive game starkly highlights the vast resource gulf as others have said. It could have been worse for Scottish football. Had it been my lot, playing as we did at Rugby Park, against that Tottenham side it would have been 10 !

Still, Euro quailfiers in the the offing. Two Scotland wins anyone ?

I agree that Celtic need to concentrate on winning the tie and I think they will be capable of scoring in the return leg as Sion have to be a bit more adventurous.
They came for a draw and achieved their aim but the worrying aspect was Lennons tactics.

Samaras has had better games but what is he supposed to do when his co-striker, Stokes, is playing( presumably to orders) wide on the left of right. Who picks up the knock ons ?

Celtic were actually more dangerous when Maloney came on despite the boos when Stokes departed.

Poor performance with a few exceptions but not the end of the world, yet !!

Yawn...... excuses and excuses ..... the SPL is a VERY poor standard

It is no suprise that SPL teams are so poor in Europe.The fishbowl that the OF dominate is for all to see and the results bear this out

The SPL = League 1 Standard for ALL teams,except the OF who are at best Championsip standard

Braga , Utrecht and Malmo have less financial resources than Celtic yet they dumped them out of Europe last year and last year this year !

Answers on a postcard ????

Ho-hum.

#63 Suggest you go buy a good Stanley Baxter DVD - awrightyadonut naehoosefuradiiddy so awayanbileyurheid

To be honest, Hearts are a mess at the moment anyway. They've got a couple of decent players, but far too many journeymen, and that's the entire problem with the SPL - too many average journeymen. Whenever a new player features for a team, it's always the same old names. They seem to get released from one SPL team, and immediately sign up to another.

We were told that the lack of money would see clubs forced to develop youngsters, and yet there's very little evidence of that. What tends to happen is that clubs sign players released by league 1 and 2 sides, or get players in on loan, and that is worrying. It suggests that the talent isn't there to make it, or (and I suspect that this might be the case) that clubs aren't prepared to put in the effort to develop talent. Scottish players are a match for most sides in Europe up until about the ages of 18 or 19, and then we just fall away. I suspect that this is the age that raw talent can sustain you until. To progress after that you need specialist coaching to develop any further, and we just don't have the coaches that are capable of doing this (despite the fact that the SFA bang on about Largs being the best coaching set up in the world)..... which may explain why brute stength is valued over skill in our league. Watch what managers say when they sign a new player - It's always 'He's a big lad, has a great engine, get's up and down the pitch etc.etc'. You'll very rarely hear them refer to the actual technical ability of the player.

It's been said so many times now that it's almost become a cliche, but Messi would never have made it in Scotland. He'd have been dismissed at age 13 or 14 for being too small.

There are glimmers that this might change. Craig Levein's announcement when he was Dundee United boss about dedicated coaching to develop technique with players was welcome, and the fact that he is now in charge of Scotland and has a lot of input into the development of grass roots football is good news. The fact that we've appointed that dutch guy (who's name escapes me at the moment) is also good news. The fact that there's so many managers who ARE trying to change the way that their teams play, to keep the ball on the ground first and foremost is good news, although given that any team who tries to pass the ball are lauded as being something freakishly unexpected should tell you all you need to know about the context that they're judged in. Also, for all the pass and move that Killie and St Mirren try to pul

Oops! I'll try and finish it this time!

Also, for all the pass and move that Killie and St Mirren try to play, it's still a very, very watered down version of tika-taka, like a kid dressing up in his dad's police uniform!

For all that, I hope that the changes being touted at the moment are instigated, and 5 years from now, we have scouts flocking from all the top leagues to try and sign up our youngsters. Somehow, though, I suspect that we'll still have a situation with the same old faces, same old loanees, the same old people saying that it can't go on and we need to change, and the same old commentators yelping with surprise when a player passes the ball on the deck to one of his own team less than 10 yards away, rather than hoofing it aimlessly up the park towards the technically-bereft-but-has-a-great-engine centre forward....