成人论坛

ISRAEL/GAZA ANALYSIS

Diplomatic talk aside, Israel's overall strategy appears to be to topple Hamas and further divide Palestine. The rocketting has annoyed/provoked Israel (2 dozen Arab/Jewish Israeli deaths in 8 years), and no doubt it's been Hamas' intention to solicit international sympathy for their position (the blockage by Israel is itself possibly being an act of war if not a war crime) and antipathy towards Israel. Iran and other supporters of Hamas can not act and risk the wrath of the USA, and the USA/UK governments fear alienating Jews because of the important role they play in their financial services and wider economies.

Conclusion: Hamas/Gaza is martying itself.

Am I alone in regarding Jeremy Paxman's performance when interviewing George Osborne last night as being rather puerile?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

bookhimdano (#3) "no mention of the use of cluster bombs in the uk media?"

Graphicaly depicted (but described as necessary 'airburst shells') on 成人论坛 News. One is left to surmise that all those subsequent explosions on the ground are indeed 'secondary explosions'...

Although some say that these are , the brght descending materials being burning felt to lay down a smoke-screen.

Were these followed by ground bursts?

WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? (#2)

Puerile wins awards and 成人论坛 approval.

barrie (#6) Do you really think that the Conservative tax break for saving pensioners is any more substantial than New Labour's 2.5% VAT 'fiscal stimulus'? I thought Paxman made some good, challenging, points about their disingenuous opportunistic theatrics, which is all that any of these proposals really amount to I suggest. Their masters are retailers and other business-people.

Whatever 'it' is, it is no longer news (at least of any value) to me.

Shame.

A pro-Israeli spokesman on Newsnight last night recommended that viewers looked into what David Trimble had said with respect to the IRA-Hamas comparison. Fair enough, but a brief look through the comments of should make one a little sceptical. See the second comment.

The major problem, I suggest, is that the Israelis and their supporters simply do not come across as either just or credible, and what's most worrying about this is that either they are blindly unaware of this, or they simply don't care so long as they believe that they have the support of the USA/UK.

jollyjimmieg,

If you compare how Marr 'interviewed' Brown on Sunday with Paxman's attempts to shout down Osbourne last night which side the 成人论坛 favours is plain.

On Gaza:

Mark Urban as a military historian should be able to tell us how many other countries have had thousands of rockets fired at their territory and not taken military action.

9. At 2:57pm on 06 Jan 2009, JadedJean

On balance, I would tend to be dubious about the value from 'a' comment in reply to 'an' article in the Guardian CiF, but OK...

You mean this one...:?

Hamas no longer attacks Israeli forces or sends Qassam rockets into Israel.

No point asking the 成人论坛 as this would probably from part of their 'from our man on the ground' eye-witness testimony, but might I enquire if any one else can confirm if this is the case?

It didn't seem to be so quite recently...

More than 50 rockets have been fired from the Gaza Strip since Hamas ended a six-month ceasefire last week.



And possibly later still...

Meanwhile militants fired at least one rocket into Israel striking the town of Netivot without causing injuries.



There are already too many casualties in this latest war, but I do wonder how many might have been, and indeed be avoided now and in the future if the media of today didn't view truth as something that needs 'editing' by choosing what we see, who we hear and carefully selected parts of what gets said to try and arrange an 'emerging truth' set by a rather small minority who seem to think they 'know better'.

I am no 'supporter' of anyone in this mess, but I do fear that when it comes to credibility, what I am served here from many sources that should know and could do better is sadly compromised.

And if I don't know what's going on, I'll tend to matain a wacthing brief until I feel I do.

Now, whose interests does such a delay through my lack of trust in the quality of reporting serve?

Not the children dying, I'd suggest. So maybe they would benefit from not having the 'support' of the current level of 'defenders' they are dubiously 'enjoying'.

TheFirstRalph (#10) "Mark Urban as a military historian should be able to tell us how many other countries have had thousands of rockets fired at their territory and not taken military action."

Are you not the least intrigued by the fact that these Hamas 'rockets' have caused so little loss of life (is it ~24) in eight years? Are Hamas THAT incompetent, or are just unlucky do you think....?

As to the aggressive interviewing, perhaps they just know how to recognise empty rhetoric (we're drowing in this and hyperbole, just listen to most over-made up female reporters waxing lyrical at almost every opportunity rather than just reporting the facts (whichis probably deemed too dull?)) and feel obligated to cut through some of it? So long as they don't, I reckon it will just get worse and worse.

Fresh back from the festive break perhaps my 鈥渟hopping list鈥� of 2008 issues rolling into 2009 may (re-)stimulate a few ideas for the Newsnight team?

1. Blair declared one of the benefits of going to war in Iraq was the Middle East 鈥減eace dividend鈥� 鈥� how is that going? I gather Mark Urban is over there right now. So are we reaping a huge dividend? Gordon will celebrate his saving of the world economy and Tony can deliver Middle East peace at the same celebration party?

2. Georgia 鈥� origins of war and the OCSE pull out. Has there been a Nato response to the question of satellite imagery showing Georgians were right or that they lied about the Russians movements prior to the conflict? Did Russia try to prevent the crisis via diplomatic channels to the US and if so what was the US response? Ukraine and the gas is a potential related flash point.

3. The VAT stimulus 鈥� has it indeed failed and will we have funds for future stimuli 鈥� or will there be a day set aside by New Labour for G.B. worship? Is it clear that the crash is going to last a lot longer than one to two years?

4. If we are going to have to make real cutbacks in the face of a looming national debt is one fruitful area of consideration the number of Quangos? They are often seemingly expensive ways to firewall the government of the day from political risk whilst allowing political credit. Do the voters get a good deal? I don鈥檛 see how they can cut back on defence etc.

5. Everybody agrees that we hit the economic storm pretty much blind. Nobody saw it coming. Is there any credible move to make sure that this cannot happen in the future? Will we always be at the mercy of Credit Default Swaps or is there another way? Will the IMF and World Bank be reformed or will there be a new global economic watchdog?

6. Imran Khan, Tariq Ali, Pakistani High Commissioner and an Obama transition representative could perhaps discuss how best to handle the tribal areas of Western Pakistan with regard to Afghanistan and al Qaeda? I gather some tribesmen shot up al Qaeda the other day 鈥� a local issue or a new trend?

7. Obama 鈥� GM and biofuels policy shifts would affect existing US eating habits (votes?) and energy policy so what鈥檚 the score about impacts and timescales? Will Obama permit labelling of GM food stuffs supplied to Europe 鈥� i.e. I believe we are already eating GM over here even if we don鈥檛 want to (sweetcorn, peppers, beef)?

8. Mumbai 鈥� why haven鈥檛 they identified the terrorists transport ships and where they came from? Satellite coverage must have been on the region surely. Curious.

9. Supply routes into Afghanistan via Pakistan 鈥� important or not 鈥� if not then aren鈥檛 the allies supplying the terrorists? Will the recent Pakistani efforts remove the threat or are they a gesture? I appreciate there must have been real loss of life by their troops to achieve what they have achieved.

10. Guantanamo shutdown 鈥� do we have the resources to 鈥渨atch鈥� accepted inmates who are risks? Our government does not seem to understand the word 鈥渙vercommitted鈥�.

11. On the 60鈥檚 series - Rimmington versus Mangold (plus Rusbridger?), with regard to were there conspiracies, smears and disinformation against Wilson?

12. The 2006 UK airplane terrorists 鈥� will there be a re-trial on the failed charges? Should society consider instructing that there be an intelligence shift on risk taking i.e. should they have waited longer to be able to prove they were indeed going to target airplanes and pick up additional intelligence. Instead they have quite limited sentences. But there is a greater risk of course that the terrorists are not intercepted and carry out an outrage. I suppose that would have to be consistent with US policy as in this case the risk was probably, but not definitely, with them and Bush couldn鈥檛 afford it.

13. I believe that the US has long wanted the UK to tighten up on money laundering via 鈥渙ffshore鈥� outlets like the Channel Islands. Given the rejection of democracy by Sark (consistent with EU treaty law?) is it time for changes so that they are either centrally controlled to allow this or expelled from our control? Goose stepper heaven?

14. Are we sleepwalking into the break up of the UK via Scottish devolution? Perhaps it鈥檚 a good thing and perhaps not.

#2

Agreed, I was hoping for some questions about the decline in savings in this country and it's implications, sadly we got words to the effect, your not in power so this is meaningless, then references to horse manure collection. Very bizarre !

Here's some figures for anyone wanting to know the state of personal savings in this country.

The per cent of income a typical British household saves -

*1997 10%
*2005 5.5%
**2008 Q3 1.8%

Implication -

This decrease in savings in banks must have contributed to some of our banks recent woes.

Longer term problem - if people are not saving for their futures, what will happen when they retire ?

Consistency -
The Conservatives have been raising this issue since 2004 and promising to encourage people to save more when or if they get elected.

*1997 and 2005 OECD figures
** 2008 figures quoted from the UK national statistics web site.

welcome back Jeremy and an excellent performance last night and your seeming disgust when interviewing an Israeli war criminal when try to defend his country's abysmal position over the massacre of women and children. We are told that Hamas deliberately put women and children in the line of fire, I do not believe it, but what if it were true, what so called 'civilised country' would then proceed to fire rockets into a compound and slaughter innocent women and children. The Israeli government cannot call itself decent whilst this tragedy goes on, any decency went out of the window when the decent people within Israel allowed the hawks for political reasons and the exit of the tyrant Bush realised that this was their last chance to re-assert their bankrupt agenda and to force an unpopular war on their citizens. A death toll of four against five hundred is so laughable a comparison that it is tragic in the extreme.

#1 JadedJean

"the USA/UK governments fear alienating Jews because of the important role they play in their financial services and wider economies.".

Whereas you are objectivity itself on the matter?

You don't deny or affirm the holocaust but you cite statistics about Jewish survival rates from the 1930's that are meaningless. You like planned economies thirties style. You don't like liberal democracy. You want to stand up against "cultural Marxism" and anti-fascism. You like big government. You like to relate IQ to race - despite credible mainstream science rejecting your views.

That may help readers put your views and those of some other posters (or logins perhaps) into context.

12. At 3:48pm on 06 Jan 2009, JadedJean

Are you not the least intrigued by the fact that these Hamas 'rockets' have caused so little loss of life (is it ~24) in eight years? Are Hamas THAT incompetent, or are just unlucky do you think....?

I have become rather concerned at the way some odd debates have spun off in this matter.

The issue of 'proportionality' flared briefly a while ago and I hoped it had been dealt with as deserved to be. The only logical outcome I could see to what many commentators seemed to be demanding to satisfy some odd notions of equivalence, was that more Israeli kids needed to be killed to satisfy the box tickers. It is of course a similar mindset to that which gave us Ms. Shoesmith, and her many intellectual defenders, not so long ago.

It seems Hamas are quite content to do their bit by blindly and deliberately targeting innocent civilians over the last eight years and to this point, so perhaps it is thought incumbent on Israeli parents and/or their military defenders to drive their kids up from the bunkers to the rooftops to make easier targets? Being better prepared for defence seems an odd thing to attack someone for, especially when under continual, life-threatening, assault.

Hence to answer your question I'm erring on Hamas being pretty inept militarily but psychotically dangerous politically and in almost every other way to anyone they go near, especially their own.

If a nutter walks my streets lashing out wildly with a hatchet, even if they only connect rarely I'd be keen on them being dealt with pronto lest my kids were unlucky enough to fall victim. Not so sure I'd be trying to 'understand their motivations', assuming they have any, for almost a decade.

Steve-London (#14) "Longer term problem - if people are not saving for their futures, what will happen when they retire ?"

Exactly, but as I keep pointing out, we have an engineered dysgenic fertility. How does one make grown up children less impulsive adults? Answer:- one can't as it's largely genetic.

This suits those who see people as cash-cows (consumers), and that's precisely what governments of any colour have been encouraging (in the name of 'freedom, and choice) since the late 1970s. Why would such people want people to save, better just to relax the fractional reserve by deregulation as they just want peole to spend spend spend. It was sold as a dream and it was just that.

Liberal-democracy is self-destructive, and in time, within an international money market, parasites can and do move on.

Does this not fit the facts?

Apologies to thegangofone's sensibilities/chutzpah - but see Russian Oligarchs, see Wall Street. Some ugly statements about self-interested groups of people are true (and very ugly). See what the Russian Duma , and think of anti-Statist (at home and abroad) Thatcher as just a puppet for anarchists like Joseph.

JunkMale (#17) "It seems Hamas are quite content to do their bit by blindly and deliberately targeting innocent civilians over the last eight years and to this point, so perhaps it is thought incumbent on Israeli parents and/or their military defenders to drive their kids up from the bunkers to the rooftops to make easier targets?"

There are less salient/obvious acts of aggression/oppression by Israel (and the West) which Palestinians are responding to, just as there have been socio-economic sanctions against N Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe, and every other regime which the USA (in particular) does not approve of - these invariably resist free-market liberal-democratic capitalism. This, I suggest, is why we don't have a viable Old Labour party in the UK. Will Obama make any difference in a couple of weeks time? I doubt it given the composition of his campaign team and how his staff is shaping up.

There is a small nepotistic elite within the ruling elite - it shows up in the statistics whether one likes to acknowledge this or not. It is cleverly done. Is it democratic? Or is it at root Fascist/racist?

I guess that if the breaking news of a US State Department call for an immediate
ceasfire in Gaza and the distressing but
as yet unconfirmed reports that the IDF
hit a United Nations school on Monday
night are confirmed, you may need to
extend the Palestine coverage on the
Tuesday edition of Newsnight. But the
Ukraine gas cutoff story has of course
got a potential Gaza angle: there is a
very large gas field off the Gaza coast.

This (December 2008) report from The
Daily Telegraph gives the background:

t-need-aid-it-has-a-andpound2bn-gas-field.html

12: No state would allow its territory to have thousands of rockets (effective or otherwise) fired at it without a military response. The question is then why do so many people think Israel should?

As for Paxman, I'm all in favour of tough interviews as long as they are fair. That one wasn't.

JunkkMale (#11) If you read the exchange over UN Resolution 242 you'll see just how 'cleverly' this egregious game is played. Over the last 50 years this has insidiously infected so much of our culture that now almost 'anything goes', however venal, so long as it can be defended legally. The problem, however, is that the language of the law is not, sadly, truth-functional and proficiency in natural language and law is not the same as proficiency with truth (see Quine on this). There is alos a group/brain-gender sex difference here, and it's going to turn out to be a very costly one unless we come to grips with it far better than we have to date, I fear. The rudiments of it show up in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but it has been manifest and documented for centuries.

TheFirstRalph (#21) As I said in #21, Natural Languages are not truth-functional. People will go round and round in intensional circles as a consequence. Try to define 'military response' in this context. The Israelis are killing more civilians than militants and they come out with statements at they are looking after their children better than the Palestinians are. There's little rationl in this game.

How many Israelis have been killed since this started? Many are being suckered into their game and they're experts at spin. How do we even know that ALL of those rockets are fired by Hamas?

Even reading a Wikipedia article on should suffice to make some look further than the Israeli/USA/EU propaganda, but it won't.

Jeremy was priceless last night :o)

As for Israel - they have every right to defend themselves against the terrorist organisation called Hamas. If Hamas hadn't started firing rockets into Israel then this wouldn't have happened.

And for those that don't know - Hamas wants to kill every Jewish person and wipe Israel off the map.

And for the moaners who are bleating on about civilian casualties in Gaza - where were you when the Palistinians were killing Israelis with rockets and suicide bombers and Israeli children were getting killed?

Mistress76uk (#24) "And for those that don't know - Hamas wants to kill every Jewish person and wipe Israel off the map."

Where have they said that? Iran and Hamas do not recognise the STATE of Israel. Something which they do not recognise as a legitimate state should not in their view be depicted on a map. China does not recognise Nationalist China (Taiwan).

Are you or are you just intent on demonstrating that you have difficulty reading and controlling your emotions? You are just reinforcing/promulgating propaganda.

#2 Jolliejimmieg

"Am I alone in regarding Jeremy Paxman's performance when interviewing George Osborne last night as being rather puerile?"

I caught only part of it. I thought it was a re-showing of the puerile interview in December. It seemed much the same. I commented then but the mods blocked it. It reminded me of the Howard interview. Pathetic.

So no, you are not alone.

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13thMan (26) What Paxman did in the 90s Howard interview (if that's the one you mean) was good because he cut through the hypocrisy of 'Agencies' (then the Prison Service) being free from government OPERATIONAL interference. He did much the same thing last night's challenge albeit in a different way.

paxman was fair in his interview of osborne, the man is so incompetant he just let it show and he was so easy Jeremy ended up laughing at him. It's the worst kept secret in Tory central office that he's a gonner, he'll be a front man for M&S any day

"25. At 7:08pm on 06 Jan 2009, JadedJean wrote:

"Where have they said that?"

The Hamas charter makes it abundantly clear what they think of the state of Israel and of Jews in particular.

Freddie_Mercury (#30) So what? It doesn't say THAT does it? Hamas and Iran simply state that it should never have been put in Palestine, and Iran says it should have been put somewhere else if Europe felt so bad about the aftermath of WWII. Marshall warned Truman it would end in tears, and it has and looks like it will contrinue to do so. There are still more Jews living outside Israel, and that looks like it will persist too. The bulk live in the USA, and that's causing no end of trouble too. Learn to recognise colonisation and the battle for hegemony which goes with it.

The way this has worked is that over many generations, assortive endogamy in conjunction with an idiosyncratic shift in brain gender towards higher verbal for males, along with a feminisation of liberal-democratic society through promotion of equality and mass immigration of lower cognitive ability peoples has given them a cognitive advantage disporportionate to their absolute demographic representation given the way the Gaussian distribution of ability 'levels' at the upper tail. Alas, with this comes more spin and other costs.

JadedJean

Where do you consider it acceptable for Jews to live?

#31, "simply state?" Surely you're not falling for that? That's the sort of spin-doctoring that would make even Tony Blair blush.

The Hamas founding charter states:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
Whether or not you believe Israel should exist as a state, surely this sort of inflammatory and grossly anti-semitic rhetoric goes against what we, as reasonable, sane-minded, liberal-thinking people stand for?

Not to mention the fact that Hamas' charter claims that Zionists were behind the French and Russian revolutions, as well as World Wars I and II, though Zionism wasn't conceived until about a century after the French revolution, which clearly shows the lack of intelligence on the part of Hamas. That and their constance references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an antisemitic piece of fakery.

Yes, Israel has done plenty of wrong in its time (possibly an understatement), but how anybody in their right mind could defend Hamas to such an extreme is quite frankly startling.

This blog is becoming increasingly offensive.

What the international community has witnessed over the past 11 days or so is just a clear instantiation of something which has been and continues to be done elsewhere except far too many are too afraid to point it out because of fear and ignorance sustained by carefully contrived political correctness imposed upon others in order to secure affirmative action/hegemony.

Freddie_Mercury (#34) "how anybody in their right mind could defend Hamas to such an extreme is quite frankly startling."

It does not surprise me that you are startled. There appears to be something missing in large numbers of people who support the behaviour of Israel and her supporters abroad.

The disconnect between their words and the actual facts of the matter are well known. What is controversial is the explanation. I have given mine. I've suggsted that it is the consequence of a brain-gender anomally which is a little more prevalent in this group than in others. Cognitively, verbal is higher than spatial, a distinctly female profile. It has its costs, and sadly, in terms of la-la land, advantages.

The arrogance of Israel鈥檚 spokesmen Mr Shitreet and Mr Reger is truly shocking.
They showed their complete disregard for the life of Palestinian civilians.
Three different UN schools were hit in one day and so many civilians were killed but there is no apology, no regret. It seems that Israelis consider themselves above International Law and the Geneva convention doesn鈥檛 apply to them.

Israelis are justifying the attack on Gaza by saying that Hamaz are firing rockets at South Israel.
How many children were killed by Hamaz鈥檚 home-made rockets in Israel?
-NONE
How many children were killed by Israeli war planes in Gaza since 27 December?
- Over 100

The truth is there is NO JUSTIFICATION for KILLING INNOCENT and DEFENCELESS women and children!
Whatever Israelis say - it鈥檚 a barbaric act!

:o) Thank you Fliegel & Freddie!

doctormisswest (#35) "This blog is becoming increasingly offensive."

I quite agree. Are you going to stop now?

SCOTOMA

Mistress76uk (#39) You clearly instantiate how other's hostility/resentment/criticism is generated and reinforced. Truth does not lie in consensus.

37. At 11:08pm on 06 Jan 2009, JadedJean wrote:

"It does not surprise me that you are startled. There appears to be something missing in large numbers of people who support the behaviour of Israel and her supporters abroad.

The disconnect between their words and the actual facts of the matter are well known. What is controversial is the explanation. I have given mine. I've suggsted that it is the consequence of a brain-gender anomally which is a little more prevalent in this group than in others. Cognitively, verbal is higher than spatial, a distinctly female profile. It has its costs, and sadly, in terms of la-la land, advantages."

Your suggestion is not a fact, it's a theory.

Fair enough, you don't support the actions of Israel. Then why support the actions of Hamas, who are no better, and, if one bothers to read up on them, are many magnitudes worse (with respect to the rights of women, homosexuals, non-Muslims). Even their lack of concern for their own civilians is at least as reprehensible as Israel's lack of concern for Palestinian civilians. When food and medicine seem to be in short supply, there appears to be no shortage in the number of rockets and weaponry in the Gaza Strip. Funny, that.
Unless of course, though you dislike Israel, you don't support Hamas at all, in which case I apologise profusely.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#44 Please release me....it will be OK you know, it's testable and therefore legitimate.

The thrust of these (surprisingly to me) binned posts was a reference to a book by

Those interested will, I'm sure, be able to find it on the web and the cognoscenti will be able to connect up the dots as the relevant issues are now widely researched.

Dear Newsnight,
I was dismayed last night (08 Jan 2009), when your lead story was the reduction in the UK bank rate! and not the butchery that's taking place in the Gaza Strip! Even your item on Gaza by the respected Alan Johnston (and I personally respect him a great deal), was too truncated to lift your programme above the level of 'pathetic'. I would prefer to use other adjectives here but they would not be broadcastable. Suffice it to say that I immediately switched to Aljazeera English. Also, why is it that Newsnight presenters continually assert that the Israelis are not allowing international reporters into Gaza when you know quite well (through your monitoring), that Aljazeera have at least two teams in Gaza headed by the intrepid Sherine Tadros and Ayman Mohyeldin, who are risking their lives to bring the truth of Gaza to the world!
Yours disappointedly.