³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

As the evidence strongly suggests that such incentives sent the wrong messsage to the traders, and rewarded their management for taking undue risk, it seems rather strange to repeat the mistake. We would expect that the cowboys in the industry itself would want to get their snouts in the trough once again. On the other hand, have we learned nothing?

The peculiar justification that the banks will lose their best people, when there are literally thousands of replacements already on the dole, is an insult to the rest of us who are already paying heavily for their incompetence!

If British banks remain public companies, it's up to their boards what they pay their staff. Brown has no say in the matter. To have a say would require legislation and a return to centrally planned prices and incomes policy - the very thing which the markets are said to have replaced as the means of determining prices/values. It's all bluster for the naive public is it not?

Nick Clegg is saying utopian, empically ill-founded, things about giving every child an (equal?) chance by reducing class sizes in primary schools. Such talk should, I suggest, be treated with the same derision/censure that other vendors of spin have received in recent times.

Its pretty obvious that the BoE is running interest rate policy purely in the interests of the stock market parasites. Cutting rates further will do nothing to increase the money supply to real business providing real jobs in the real economy. However, it will swell the balance sheets of hedge funds etc, thus justifying huge bonuses for parasitic traders be it in part state owned banks or otherwise.

It is interesting to note that the market has recovered this week since Panda failed to rule out the creation of a " bad bank " to take over " toxic assets " Its pretty obvious that the stock market parasites are dictating the government agenda. The best independent financial brains favor nationalization of the UK banks, but meanwhile the corporate multinational cartel threaten with massive job losses in their constituent companies.

..the brightest and the best?

give me a break. anyone good is working for themselves. there is a glut of people looking for jobs in an ever shrinking sector.

if people knew how the govt and the bankers have wrecked the financial future of a generation [next 20 years] there would be street riots.

never in the field of human finance have so few destroyed the wealth of many for so long in the future.

bonuses in banks that without public money would be bust is a farce.

everyone else is on pay cuts, short time working or sacked. for the govt to stand aside is to yet again promote the failed idea the market is 'efficient at allocating resources. when will the govt take on board the evidence and give up on that fantasy.

the only reason one can conclude is that politicians are looking for later careers for themselves?

there is NO reason to give any bonus to any bank that has taken the public's money.

If we accept the principle of a minimum wage - why not have a maximum wage? It had been demonstrated many times, and more recently with the banking failures that nobody is truly brilliant. Whilst the performance of some may appear to be outstanding, rarely are they able to repeat that performance when the circumstances change.

Take two graduate management trainees with similar qualifications. How can we accept a situation after 15 years where one is paid 30 or 40 more times than the other simply because he/she was marginally better. No one is 30 or 40 times better than a colleague. They might be 10% or 15% better. Yet sometimes the pay differential 1000%!

The principle of a maximum wage should be applied universally. In practice, it's difficult to implement. The simplest way is through the tax system. Tax bands should rise incrementally to a point around the £500,000 where it is effectively 100%.

Hi Paul, Kirsty.
I reproduce my comment to Robert Peston's blog this evening.
Excuse me but does the well anticipated snowfall that has now thawed for the time being in the S.E. have any bearing on the delay in posting respondents' comments to your blog leadership? Surely, the moderators can work from home if necessary.

//Robert,
You posted your blog at 16.12 GMT. The first respondent answered at 16.30 GMT.
As I write, anothermicawber’s contribution has not yet been acknowledged [19.13 GMT ish].

Do the Mods know you’ve publicly expressed an opinion? Do they know that over 100 respondents have also?

I have no comment on topic because I feel that the small beer of bonuses as they now stand will have infinitesimal effect on how we pay our utility bills to energy et al suppliers that may have to continue supply under multi-government guarantee let alone the other interconnected micro and macro contributors to our global economy.

I hope that this financial and economic shock to the world will promote a certain politeness to its citizens, human and otherwise, and to the collective environment.

N.
\\

The brightest and the best are not, believe it or not, motivated exclusively, and maybe not even primarily, by money. If that had been asserted 30 odd years back few would have batted an eye-lid. Much has changed for the worse, and the driver of that lies in effective marketing of Chicago/Austrian School economics 3 decades ago. I was very good PR, but that's all. What we have seen for the last 30 years is the unleashing of economic anarchism as freedom.

Wassup?

It's 20;22 and no posts have appeared since 18;26; have the Moderators of the General Assembly of Sad Posters (Gasp?!) given up on ALL of us?

Banks, by the way, do not need the brightest and best right now; dull, stoic, cautious plodders who can add and subtract are currently required; those who are more than conscious of the billions of taxpayers' cash that have been horsed into their organisations. Gordi may well agree with Obama on limits to wages and bonuses but that doesn't mean he'll do anything about it.

I watched Timms of the Treasury (You rang, Darling?) on C4 News and he was, as Jon Snow put it, decidedly "squidgy" about taking a firm line, other than "we'll shortly have an agreement." Heavens to Betsy, we are the single biggest shareholder; what we say, goes!

If like me, savers are a bit miffed, my advice, not dissimilar to what was proffered on that ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ business programme this week, is; if you have a mortgage, investigate paying off a chunk with your savings; as insurance keep about six months' equivalent net salary in a "rainy day place"; if, like me, you have no mortgage, are self employed and have some dosh, you could do worse than the stock market; there are some real bargains about, if you and/or a good broker know where to look; but stay relatively cautious. And don't just look at the FTSE; the AIM is worth a trawl, too.

I was disappointed by the Iran item last night, a bit shallow I thought. Don't forget that Ahmedinejad is the Iranian equivalent of Dubya, it's just that, unlike in the US, people in Iran need to be extremely careful about voicing their disdain. Iranians deserve better, but they do not need "more concerted pressure" as the Yorkshire Mekon suggested; the regime will then, like Putin, play the nationalist card and the strong sense of Iranian identity will prove a harder nut to crack than even Aghanistan; President Obama is 100% right; diplomacy will win the day, and possibly a far better future for the Iranian people.

Have now opened a book on when posts will appear; 8/1 on - NOW!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It takes a strange form of madness for anyone to defend huge bonuses in the City. No one needs huge sums of money in order to live or feel rewarded especially when it exacerbates general inequalities particularly in the housing market wherein some can buy several houses and distort the market while others cannot afford one.
A small time burglar is treated justifiably with punishment but others cause financial chaos and expect a very large reward.
The only surprise about the present situation is that it took so long. The housing market was clearly ridiculous and there are cruel cases of private rental of what had been subsidised social housing. Public service cuts take place against a background of vast wealth squirrelled away offshore.
Have we developed the wrong brain cells - or any?

Very interesting on Russia. It could be worth a follow up to see whether the corrupt elements are a temporary reality in a passage (like the US Wild west) or an intrinsic element in modern Russia.

So is it power blocks as plate tectonics where hidden business/crime bosses rule Medvedev and Putin? I can't see Medvedev being the type. I could see Putin, perhaps through misguided patriotism, imaging that any slight to Russia is against National Security. Even the US over Guantanomo torture stoops to that level; - but they don't shoot journalists.

On a different note I am so happy Obama is President (he refutes the race realists just by having got there) and I know he has to meet all kinds of unsavoury people - but Blair?

Also I have given thought to the goose steppers and feel that perhaps with the snow they may feel like migrating to a new home!

North Korea!

Outdated political ideas; totalitarian; authoritarian big government; they shoot people (you don't have to be a journalist - but be careful about your race/IQ statistics) at the drop of a hat!

Missiles and threatening world peace!

A brave new world!

Send us a postcard n'all.

Actually don't worry about the card. If you want help with the air fare talk to a decent human being and express your political views and I am sure they will help.

You might get a lottery grant.

Bye!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

LATEST: YORKSHIRE MEKON SMEAR BY 'GASP' MEMBER. (#8)

Great post Kashi - though I have no idea if you are right about anything.
I didn't get the Timms gag, but suspect he might be a good genetic study for JJ; looks as if he might have a nasty cluster in sector ZZZ-alpha.

Keep banging the rocks together.

FOOLS KNAVES VIPERS AND BOSOMS.

NOW, Obama is defined. If I believed in that stuff, I would say: "The Antichrist has come among us".

Weep world.

I watched Newsnight last night and was appalled by the specious arguments used by the hedge fund manager regarding the payment of large bonuses.

For example he claimed that bankers need to be paid more in order to spot frauds like Madoff.

What rubbish! Nicola Horlick and a bevy of fund managers and investment bankers all paid multimillion dollar salaries FAILED to spot Madoff's fraud. Clearly they had a conflict of interest - Madoff was a lucrative business for them since they earned a fee for putting money in. Paying them more would not have helped.

He then cited his justification for this was Harry Markopolous's testimony yesterday (which is well worth reading as an insight to how to fix bad regulation by someone who has strong understanding of the industry). Harry was the guy who tried to blow the whistle on Madoff for about 8 years but kept being ignored by the SEC. He said that one of the problems was the low pay (by finance standards) of the SEC and also their lack of financial understanding. He said THE REGULATORS should be paid more to attract brighter people NOT THE BANKERS. This hedge fund manager turned this statement round and so misrepresented Mr Markopolous.

Indeed, an argument should have been made that we NEED TO PAY THE BANKERS LESS SO THAT WE GET BETTER REGULATORS.

So either this guy (hedge fund manager) failed to understand this or he was spinning. Either way, it does not say much for the hedge fund industry.

thegangofone (#12) "On a different note I am so happy Obama is President (he refutes the race realists just by having got there)"

Please explain how this is the case (in your view).

Go1 #12

"they shoot people"

Whereas you simply want to imprison them for pointing out a few facts. What does that make you?

#14; you need to get out more, barriesingleton, and start finding out about Iran and the Iranians for yourself; because very soon, the meeja will be telling you all sorts of stuff and British politicos will be falling over themselves to show they "understand" Iran in an attempt to curry favour with President Obama.

Saturday, ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ programme at 9pm on Iran should be worth a look; better for you than "gasping".

Apologies to Joe;

London's freezing,

All the buses have stopped,

Trains not running,

Services chopped,

London's freezing,

Mayor's in a fix,

Gritters are nowhere,

Snowploughs are nixed,

London's freezing; London's freezing.

London's thawing,

But the North still has snow,

Don't bother says Alex;

"We can go it alone!"

London's thawing; London's thawing.

And life's returning now to what it was like

Before, before, before, before.....

Sorry!

I didn't watch Newsnight last night; (aka Warknight). Instead I watched Questiontime and grew increasingly concerned about Shami Chakrabarti; she looked pale, had a new, spikier haircut, sat slumped in her chair yet gave a finger pointing, sneering and jeering attack in response to the question about Binyam Mohammed; her attack was in the main on Geoff Hoon; I'm no friend of his, but the nature of her invective was quite off- putting and I think took Dimbleby, the panellists and the audience somewhat aback.

I hope she's not ill. Watch on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ iPlayer and see what you think.

Maybe Her Eugenic Highness has a view; she has on everything else.

THE LONGEST BREAKFAST-SPOON IN HISTORY. BUT WHO HAS THE HANDLE?

For Obama to embrace Blair, might have massive Machiavellian advantage, but if Obama had an ounce of psychological acumen, he would easily infer from the Blair speech that Toxic Tony will bring a plague on any house. (Or could it just be that this is the 'Temptation of Tony' - and he failed?)

Our 'interesting times' have just gone right off the scale.

Blair certainly belongs in the Middle East - the indefensible, tackling the irresolvable - he has no part to play in the real world.

IS THIS WHY WE VOTE FOR DE-REGULATORS (ANARCHISTS)?

The technique is known as Paradoxical Intention, a term coined by a 'survivor' of a concentration camp (that may give you some pause for thought). Simply put, vilify your opponent's political system in order to make your own appear more appealing.

thegangofone - Perhaps you should give some of just a little thought? Is any of this at all ?

The USA ranks very high in locking up its people (who are in fact) - why is that given this is the land of the 'free'? Note that there is approximately an 8 point IQ difference between the mean of the convicted offender population and that of the normal population and that about half of the USA prison population is Black (Blacks only comprise about 14% of the USA population though, the largest non-white minority group is Hispanic). Note, that the USA census erroneously classed many Hispanics as white up to the early 2000s. The smartest ethnic groups in the USA are the Jews (predominantly high verbal) and the East Asians (better spatially than verbally)

kashibeyaz (#20) "I hope she's not ill."

I didn't see it, I'll watch and let you know. I think she's politically misguided, I always have.

CASE STUDY (#20)

Shami shows all the signs of a child having a ball in a 'position of authority'; like a toddler wearing mummy's high heels. Her enthusiasm seems genuine but childlike 'triumph' shines from every pore as she delivers her 'message'.

As for the Gothic eye make-up, only a child would fail to see that it does not speak of gravitas.
But, tonight's grey suit - that had me foxed and might have given off 'illness vibes' that Kashi registered.

I wonder if she has vaguely picked up on lack of gravitas, and gone for a grey power-jacket, completely failing to spot the panda-eyes anomaly?

It is so sad. As an unfeminised male (got the right fingers) I can 'sense' that Shami is really very pretty (that's such a pretty word for a woman) but SHE can't make up her mind if she wants me to feel that way - thus neither can I!

Thank goodness everything is now showbiz!
Can't you just see Hoon as a clown? What's that you say?

#22; This is just not good enough.

Paradoxical Intention is not "Simply put; vilify your opponents' political system in order to make your own more appealing."

Paradoxical Intention is a technique used in psychotherapy, developed by Viktor E. Frankl in 1929 and has helped alleviate and/or cure phobias, OCD and acute anxiety;all documented in innumerable, books, articles, scientific journals - you name it.

Your most recent attempt to denigrate, poison and defame has failed, but by all means please try again, it's such a hoot.

And yes, Frankl was a survivor of the camps; that makes me pause and think that he was very, very lucky.

The hedge fund manager simply didnt get it did he - the public are absolutely furious with bankers. So what if they had contracts that garunteed bonuses. Ordinary people had jobs and pensions before his sort decided to gamble them. Does he seriously think well their bonus? Id rather see bank management forced to pick litter wearing an orange boiler suit until their companies have paid the taxpayer back

kashibeyaz (#25) , Extensional Therapy, Self Therapies and Psychoanalysis are widely regarded as pseudoscience by - but popular with lay-people just as astrology and Angel-Reading, crystals etc is. There is absolutely no empirical evidence that any of it works (many disorders spontaneously remit), which is one of the reasons why efforts are being made by the NHS/DoH to better 'psychotherapists' (who by definition tend not be to professionally accredited). The only type of treatment which has some empirically demonstrable therapeutic efficiacy for the anxiety disorders is Behaviour Therapy, although some GPs and psychiatrists still prescribe benzodiazepines and anti-depressants even though their therapeutic efficacy is now also in question). Psychoanalysis was made popular by Bernays, the father of Public Relations aka spin. .

Paradoxical Intention has been used politically as a PR technique.

You don't know what you are talking about. Stop thinking you do and learn recognise and to listen to those who do.

#22 JadedJean

Sometimes a few facts say more than a thousand words.

You tend to a a billion words and still usually say nothing.

1. You describe yourself as a race "realist" - yet science shows genetic variation is greater within races than between races.

2. You feel the need to "stand up against cultural Marxism and anti- fascism". Hitler did "good things and bad things". Hitler and Mussolini did what in the 1930's they did because "the times demanded it".

3. You don't usually use the phrase "International Jewish Conspiracy" but Jews are often mentioned and you will quote figures about (rubbish) Jewish 30's survival rates and whether this is compatible with there having been a Holocaust. There is overwhelming evidence for the Holocaust on every conceivable level.

4. You don't like democracy and would clearly get rid of it if you had the chance.

5. You can link any sets of data if you don't understand them. You claim scientific superiority but rarely use the language of science and when push comes to shove mainstream scientists are "all Jews".

You "vilify" yourself. You are not a harmless eccentric.

I generally just quote you in order that posters really understand where you and your soul mates are coming from. You are often deliberately vague and tangential.

You were saying the other day you would have quite liked Russia under Stalin and therefore on a personal note if I win the lottery and you wanted financial help to relocate to North Korea I would help.

Actually I probably wouldn't but its the thought that counts.

#25 kashibeyaz

Well said.

robssmith (#26) The point is that a) their contracts are legally binding and b) that whilst what the banks did may be venal, it was legal, so they can't be legally punished. De-regulation permitted the behaviour, i.e. they were doing their jobs according to the law. In fact, the laws were changed to make it easier. They were not doing anything 'wrong'.

People have got to try to understand that the essence of the Liberal-Democracies is that the electorate gives a mandate to a party, which then governs by a) getting its policies enacted as legislation b) using its Executive arm to enforce that legislation (sometimes it even creates 'regulators' in such a way which makes them effectively sinecures, e.g. via inadequate remuneration/staffing). In the current crisis, the legislation removed restraints on Financial Services, i.e the legislation de-regulated, i.e made the sector more anarchistic letting the markets call the tune. Morals and ethics didn't really come into it.

#27 ... contd

Forgot to add that nearly everybody in the world is an "anarchist and Trotskyite" as they disagree with you.

In my case its because I "paint Hitler as darkly as possible" for "party political reasons". From other comments I think the "party political" means you think I am Jewish. I'm not Jewish.

I am an enthusiastic democrat who votes Lib Dem (NOT a party member as they are excessively "happy clappy" on Europe).

I like new ideas and varied ideas.

Not non-democratic , fascist (you oppose anti-fascists) , race hating, subversive pseudo-intellectual "storm-troopers".

I would legislate against Holocaust Denial as in Germany and Austria and I think that if somebody is identifiably non-democratic the Beeb should think about whether they are allowed to post.

Tonight; "the disconnect between the Government and the workers" - more accurately, the chasm between New Labour and the working classes.

The Blair Rich Project; to gain a position of power so as to enrich financially oneself and one's collaborators - to schmooze with Mad Murdoch and the billionaires - by duping an electorate with one thought in mind - "time for a change, then!"

Hands up, Gordi Brown - you have attempted to develop the Project but don't have the necessary vampiric skills - just the smile- and stop doing that, by the way! Why not just be yourself, if you can remember who that is; the dour ,earnest, unsmiling socialist, yes, socialist, that you once were, with your James Maxton wig and all up at Edinburgh Uni- or was that the performance and now we see the real you?

Stop being petty political - "British jobs for British workers" - and try some real, undiluted leading like President Obama, and the Labour Party might just get the working class back on board before they all don fluorescent jackets and storm Chequers this weekend.

thegangofone (#28) "I generally just quote you"

Actually, you don't accurately quote do you? You selectively quote and your purpose appears to be to misrepresent, which other readers can clearly see. This reveals you to be either a) not very bright or b) not very honest. I have tried to help you correct your errors, but evidently to no avail.

Hitler restored Gerany to a major power in Europe. No historian denies this. That was a good thing for Germans. Mussolini was widely praised in his time, you can check at the Von Mises site (it's the home of the Austrian School - no fan of regulaton or Command Economies). What one has to do is try to understand what works, what does not, and why.

There have obviously been Jewish movements in history, just as there have been German and British movements. They were all quite legal so not conspiracies. The 1917 revolution was largely Jewish led, and the Tripartite Pact in the 1930s was against the Comintern, and Jewish international finance - please learn some history. To call someone anti-semitic when they are critical of a political movement is egrgiously tautological if the reference is to a Jewish group which leads the party as it does not mean that all Jewish people are being criticised. You clearly don't like National Socialism, so you are anti-Nazi (pro-communist but not Stalinist, - cf. Searchlight?), imagine a law whereby people could punish you for holding such views, and you may start to see what is going on and why it is duplicitous. This was debated in Parliament recently as the Employment Bill went through, I suggest you look it up in Hansard.

This is what groups do, i.e. they politically compete for resources. Zionism was declared racist by the UN up until the early 1990s. Why did that change? See Israel vs Palestine today.

To understand more about this, see Kevin MacDonald's work.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR

"I would legislate against Holocaust Denial as in Germany and Austria and I think that if somebody is identifiably non-democratic the Beeb should think about whether they are allowed to post."

Next step, legislate to ban the Conservative Party, the Labour Party, those you don't like in the Liberal-Democratic Party e.g. the people who are "excessively happy clappy on Europe").....

...beware, if you keep 'reasoning' this way, BlogDog may grant you .

JEKYLL AND HYDE JAMES AND GORDON(#32)

You are wasting your words Kashi. Brown is 'split'. Son of the Manse - saving Africa; and Machiavellian money-manipulator (all wrapped up in a power-desperate child).

Just wait and see what we get next. They all come out the same orifice. Think Thatcher and Blair. Don't have nightmares.
If you want quality PMs SPOIL PARTY GAMES (it's a start).

"UNDILUTED LEADING LIKE PRESIDENT OBAMA" (#32)

Me again Kashi. Are you SURE about the Obama thing? He verbally kicked Dubya all round the park on graduation day but has now called Blair (Dubya's scuttler) 'Big Guy' (!) and fallen into his arms (just how it came out). Something very odd is going on, and I don't think it is UNDILUTED leadership; I think the word might be: 'polluted'.

Don't forget to read the Blair speech - it's a doozy.

kashibeyaz #32

Nice one! Not so sure about the Obama bit (he a rather dangerous super-Blair to me) but the rest was pretty good! ;-)

thegangofone (#31) "Forgot to add that nearly everybody in the world is an "anarchist and Trotskyite" as they disagree with you."

Let's take that statement as an example. if you look throughout the world you'll find that of the 6 billion people out there, there are many countries which are not Liberal-Democracies (in fact, they are probably a minority) and which don't have free-market economies. Those countries actively resist efforts to induce them to adopt this sort of self-extinguishing (demographically) democracy, often because they see it as predatory given their better grasp of human/group diversty in aptitudes. If you look carefully at what I've said, I've asserted that Trotskyism and anarcho-capitalism (another name for what came out of the Austrian School of economics - see Rothbard and the Von Mises Institute) are bed-fellows. They are both anti-Statist, they are both for freedom of the individual. In fact, to all intents and purposes they are the same - see the Socialist International today (of which New Labour is a member). If you look at Hayek's famous book 'The Road To Serfdom', much loved by Thatcher and Jospeh, you'll see it's straight out of the Austrian School, and is anti Stalinist/Statist. If you look at what Thatcher did, she began the breaking up of the UK's welfare state/Civil Service in favour of the individual, but it wasn't for the humble worker, it was for entrepreurs and the market hitherto regulated by Old (Stalinist) Labour with its prices and incomes policy and central planning of the means of production (coal, steel, telecoms, gas etc).

It was her (US backed?) anarchism which we are now having to deal with today. This is what you, perhaps unwitttingly (perhaps even as a 'useful idiot'), are supporting in your vilification of National Socialism (which in its literal sense, is, like Stalinism, just the welfare state, effective Civil Service, and regulated economy). Thatcher's brood from the 80s on have been behaving like a classic (entryist) Trotskyists, having morphed to bring the system down from within. Anarchists are good at that, what they are not very good at is running railways or anything else. So by all means keep disagreeing, but as you're just contributing to pulling the rug from under your own and future generations' feet if I am right, (and the evidence - demographic and economic suggests that I am) I will keep pointing to peole like yourself as examples of the (often unwitting) little helpers out there who have brought about this crisis and who won't help resolve it.

IF IT LOOKS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE . . . (#37)

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? (Whatever happened to that?) "Super Blair" - got it in one NF.

When identical-twin, RELIGIOUS, narcissist stare into each others eyes, what do they see? I think I might have defined PERDITION.

JJ, I've lost your reference to Rushton and Jensen's article but I just know you'll find me because you insulting me is one of the few reliable themes in my ife at the moment!

Thanks for the link, I agree that research should remain objective, and that the political climate of the last twenty years has done much to rewrite science and history. David Attenborough's recent presentation of Darwin's theory was very interesting. Behind the benevolent tone I detected a very weary soul as he produced the alarming statistic that in Britain today, 50% of the population are creationists and yet 50 years ago the situation was very different. I know other people too who feel that their life's work has been for nothing now that we have sacrificed much of our cultural fabric in order to enable global commerce.

But if you look also at the way those different measured intelligences express themselves as cultural forces in the world, the picture is not quite as clear.

I'd give an example but I think it might be brought down by House Rules.

Wow the mods are quick this morning!

Here's the example.

In the 1980s when PC started, the very first thing we (I was one of them) said was that you can't talk about black people being good at sport or music.

If you go to britkid.org (I don't know how to add a link) - which is a tool for teachers and there is an EU site too, but it's not immediately obvious where the sites come from,
and then go to the page Serious Issues and then to THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A 'RACE' you'll find this piece of text " -

"Many people think that people with similar colour skin have similar characteristics. A common example is the achievement of black sportsmen and women and their 'natural rhythm' on the dance floor. This has less to do with biology and more to do with society: black people are not born naturally better at sport and dancing."

And yet, the impact of African music on the western music tradition has been huge and hugely positive I think most would agree.

The African influence is a continual evolution of musical forms. Gatherer, Dr Derek (1997) The Evolution of Music: A comparison of Darwinian and dialectical methods.

So the point being that any particular batch of statistics do not tell the whole story.

TO TRAIN OR NOT TO TRAIN THAT IS THE QUESTION (#41)

I admit that I have always been bad at drawing meaning (all but the simplest) from the printed word, but I simply cannot work out what you present at 41, doc.

One thing seems certain; no white sprinter would be sponsored, at great cost, to train for Olympic 100m success.

Perhaps wind resistance is lower if one gets a good tan. Maybe gravity plays a part.
The truth is out there.

Is 'the obvious' now not to be spoken?

'Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad'. I think they have found an ideal way.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Barrie

Did you look at the BritKids site?

Have a look - the opening page showing 9 BritKids is instructive, but not the focus of my previous post - let's just say, spot the anglo-saxon/n. european, s/he is mysteriously absent amongst the 2 identifiably non-ethnic/immigrant BritKids (2/9? strange stats - but of course the site is merely to demonstrate a point - diversity is good, and I'm not disagreeing but I don't like the loss of objectivity that seems to go with it).

The point about black music is that we should praise these evolutionary forces not shy away from them out of some form of inverted racism.

Americans seem to have less of a problem about their heritage - I heard an african american musician saying - the South is Afro-Celtic - that's an appreciation of the cultural influences. We tend instead to say 'don't talk about cultural heritage, you might offend someone' - it's a very 'English' approach, which is ironic (of course the US doesn't do irony)

The point about JJ's stats is that they don't tell the whole story about how human cultures evolve.
If music and sport have a biological basis, and there are plenty of scientific papers on lean body tissue, tidal volume and other crucial ingredients, in the archives also, then intelligence isn't the only measurement of what makes a culture or what drives evolution.

I hope that is clearer - if I understood half your posts I'd be doing well

I write obscurely simply because I'm very aware that the topic is sensitive and my posts may be blocked - which is a truly horrible experience - a sort of metaphorical GB - being labelled as something that one feels one is not

doctormisswest (#44) My post at #43 is a non-contentious (as I see it) response to your #40 and #41 so I'm not sure why it's spending so long with the moderator. In the meantime, given that you say:

"The point about JJ's stats is that they don't tell the whole story about how human cultures evolve. If music and sport have a biological basis, and there are plenty of scientific papers on lean body tissue, tidal volume and other crucial ingredients, in the archives also, then intelligence isn't the only measurement of what makes a culture or what drives evolution"

You should look into who controls the USA music industry, and perhaps ask how much of a cultural asset gangter rap etc really is. It may make money for some, but is that all what matters? At what cost in terms of its fashion accessories?

To appreciate the statistics better, one needs to look globally, i.e. at GDPs, fertility rates, the ratio of doctors to patients as a reflection of infrastructure and demographics, murder rates, disease, war etc - I posted a world wide map on doctor:patient ratios recentlly).

Most of all, one needs to think very carefully about what I have said.

Blogdog, I think you should reconsider post #43 as it doesn't, prima facie, violate any House Rules and it is, to the best of my knowledge,
all technically true and should be non contentious. By censuring/censoring material which highlights errors in popular opinion, one risks reinforcing pernicious, and insidious, demographic trends through inaction. That clearly contributes to making it much harder for some to grasp what is being said when they do hear it. We have very adequate laws to prevent abuse fo such information.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.