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IN THE LIMITING CASE NOTIONAL MONEY IS WORTHLESS

Single track rail lines, for two way traffic, used to have a key - JUST ONE - that gave access to the track. We have 'made the key notional' and we got the inevitable crash.

A SYSTEM UPHELD BY BLIND FAITH BUT WITHOUT SUBSTANCE

Would that be banking or religion? The Arch of Cant should be good for a one-liner.

"Joining the debate will be economist David Blanchflower, playwright and author David Hare, historian Simon Sebag-Montefiore and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams."

That's an interesting line-up. What's the debate about?

Here's of what were saying about it in the late 1930s. got a bit heated about it all. Were they ?

That's what the debate should really be about surely?

Why capitalism? Why not ask that question? There are many alternative, healthier, peaceful ways of living other than capitalism. Capitalism creates war, poverty, crime, unemployment, discrimination, degradation and generally a very destructive society. Why should we have to suffer by paying higher taxes and cut backs in health education and all to bail out banks, capitalists who gamble with our lives daily? Plus ask the question, why is there no information, education, discussion about non-economic collectives?
On Newsnight last night an American described Lehmans as bringing us to the abyss, what propaganda, they talk about no capitalism as the end of the world, when in fact its capitalism that is creating Armageddon, and much sooner than we think. This financial crisis will happen again, capitalism runs on the debt of others, therefore it has to happen. The true horror is that no one knows how to exist without capitalism, and thats the fear, if it collapses there would be war without a doubt. What we need is for everyone to know alternative ways of running things and then we can democratically vote for change, instead what we call democracy is in fact totalitarianism.
Why does Newsnight not address the true issues ever or ask the really challenging questions!

Addendum (#4) Some .

STUCK IN THE MIDDLE AS FOOT-SOLDIERS?

Postscript (#4) A clever indeed? Note the timing.

Won't bother posting tonight, I have a quiet few days and find I have been substituted by

#5 ziigzog

Celtic Lion

zigzog #5

Perhaps we are under " occupation " by the stock market parasite Corporate Nazi's with the equivalent of a " Vichy French " style puppet government whichever party theoretically wins the alleged democratic elections ?

from mimpromptu
What cultural revolution? All the current financial crisis is doing is causing misery to the people /and their families/ who have lost their jobs and thus diminishing the coffers of each individual country at the same time.
The real cultural evolution began on 5.11.2009 with the election of the first black /in fact, black & white/ President of the USA, Mr Barack Obama and, one could say, Mrs Obama who is making sure that the human aspect of the Presidency is not abandoned, as is so often the case with many a world leader.
Mr Obama also has other real supporters helping him along in this respect by creating more openness, truthfulness and transparency in both politics and the media. These, together with a great dose of spontaneous humour and joy of life, are the real motors behind the cultural evolution happening in front of our eyes.

"Joining the debate will be.."not the Chinese ambassador then?

Some of us would really like to hear what a true Labour Party would do to deal with these problems/matters created by liberal-democracy....

REVELATION BOTH DAMNING AND SALUTARY MIMPROMPTU (#10)

Those of us who struggle (in spite of ourselves) to spot some chink of light in the Mordor cloud-bank, and who dream of bringing awareness and maturity to the mass of 'triple-educated' morons, are done great service by your post. Your belief in the Obama vision, reminds us that, out there' there are many who can really SEE that vision (as the peasant girl saw the Virgin Mary) and we are moved to redouble our efforts in the realisation that there is a very big hill to climb.

mimpromptu #10

All very ten bob fat cat optimistic and all that, but it would appear that the logic of your argument is significantly undermined by the fact that you glaringly get Obama's election date wrong.

ENTITLEMENT AND OTHER NARCISSISTIC BEHAVIOUR?

"Israel refused to co-operate with the inquiry, arguing that the UN human rights council, which commissioned the study, is biased against Israel. "Both the mandate of the mission and the resolution establishing it prejudged the outcome of any investigation, gave legitimacy to the Hamas terrorist organisation and disregarded the deliberate Hamas strategy of using Palestinian civilians as cover for launching terrorist attacks," the Israeli foreign ministry said.

But Goldstone, who is Jewish and has strong links with Israel, defended the work of the four-person team. "There should be no impunity for international crimes that are committed," he said. "It's very important that justice should be done."

He rejected any suggestion of bias: "To accuse me of being anti-Israel is ridiculous." He said it was in the interests of both Israel and the Palestinians for the truth to be established."

Guardian 15th Sept 2009 (#6)

I was going to watch tonight's programme but have changed my mind because I really cannot understand what contribution the Archbishop of Canterbury could make to a debate about the economic crisis. You could have asked me or my next door neighbour who has strong opiniions on most things but a church leader? Has the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳'s infamous Thought for the Day team infiltrated the Newsnight editorial team? Please, if you want us to continue to take you seriously (and I have for many years) then you cannot do such things.

#13 from mimpromptu
I don't think so, the election was held on 4 November so I was out by one day. However, I should think the full results were probably made known on 5.11. Neither here, nor there, really, the difference.
The transparency evolution with a smiling face began then, as far as I am concerned.
I'm under no delusion that everything in the world will be sorted out under Obama's Presidency. 'Humanity' has a very nasty aspect to it and there are too many nutcases with access to powerful buttons to believe that. But there has been a visible shift towards truthfulness and warmth in some areas of national and international politics.

from mimpromptu - more about Katyn
There has been a debate in the Polish Parliament whether the word genocide is the right term to officially describe the massacre of Katyn. In the end, it was decided to use the expression of ‘war crime with elements of genocide’.
Interestingly, 69% of young people who took part in a poll regarding the above were for the use of ‘genocide’. And they say young people don’t care about the past.

minpromptu #16

5/11/2009 has not happened yet, what planet are you on ?

keeganhm (#15) "Please, if you want us to continue to take you seriously (and I have for many years) then you cannot do such things."

Surely you enjoyed the lively exchanges between members Newsnight's (essentially Jewish) 'Political Panel' which regularly debated (gossiped about) the ever so subtle nuances of red, orange and blue liberal-democratic politics, for what seemed like years?

More seriously, anyone who puts that sort of nonsense up on our screens as politics can't possibly have expected the audience to have taken anything seriously.

As a 54 year old struggling to stay one step ahead,as a self employed delivery boy for a local Egg business,I used to have no problems 10/15 yrs ago to obtain finance from my bank,as it was run by the MANAGER,he/she understood the local business,this crowde of money grabbers in central offices have no idea what is going on a ground zero,we are to small in there eyes,hes not wort lending to as hes not going to generate much to the bonsus to them,but with out all of us you dont have an economey,I would love these guys with ther heads in the clouds to be removed and maid pay for what they have done and put the banks back in control of the local MANAGERS.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

As the years have passed the local business man is been squesed by the banks,because the local Manager is no longer in control of his/her branch it is run from central office,how do they know what is happening in the at ground zero,they are sitting in ivory towers.
What right do they have to look down on the very people that are trying to keep people employed,and also producing the very goods they also need to survive.
I dred the next 2/5 years as i can see a lot of trouble ahead and it wont be from the banks,it will come from thoes who have nothing,it will become the have nots against the haves. Its sad to say but its all ready started.

A very impressive Newsnight tonight - thoroughly enjoyed the bumper edition tonight :o)
Lively debate with various representatives, from the Hedge Fund Manager to Sir Brian Pitman to The Archbishop. Excellent reports from Paul too.

#18 from mimpromptu
I'm on a pain and tiredness planet, that's where I am. However, I'm delighted to say that despite the pain and lack of sleep my spirits are running high.
Correction, therefore, to #10:
The real cultural evolution began on 5.11.2008 with the election of the first black /in fact, black & white/ President of the USA, Mr Barack Obama ..... ...........

ORIGINAL SIN AND 'PAUL MASON PLACEMENT'

I can see why you had the Arch of Cant on; it was to compare badly with the (other) sin of 'Paul Mason Placement' (a) under a mucky bridge and (b) in peril of his life (Health and Safety - risk assessment?) on the wrong side of a barrier, with his bum in the road. You should not be doing a Jeremy eyebrowraiser on BANKS Newsnight, YOU are the spectacle. BANKS hand out public money willy-nilly to pointless prats who add nothing to our lives and YOU - well - you do the same! Good 'ere innit?

The chap who thinks the worst case we will see is a repeat of Japan with a decade or two of slow deflation and no growth is wrong because the Japanese have always had a high savings rate ( around 8%) some of which was used to buy Japanese government bonds, they have a large export sector and that the Yen has been used as a Carry Trade currency, we don't have any of that. If the Bank of England don't keep printing money to buy Gilts to fill the whole in the banking system, the system collapses, and as I pointed out last night, if they keep printing it will be the end of the Pound, something that Blanchflower doesn't understand. As for the idea that credit could be restarted as it was, around 70% of the market was the shadow banking system, where the loans were not held by banks, but packaged up as securities and sold on to investors, now securitization is dead, and is not coming back in our lifetime. The Archbishop seems to think that the disconnection between reality and certain traded financial instruments like MBS, CDOs, CDO Squared, synthetic CDOs, CDS etc is just an accident, it is not, the financial models on which the whole edifice was built were fraudulent from the start, the numbers never worked, this is a very dangerous position, we would not turn the other cheek to other types of criminals, and neither should be turn the other cheek to all those in the banks and the Treasury and the rest of the government who have defrauded us of our future. Someone needs to stand up and deal with the bankers, the politicians, the civil servants, the regulators and the criminal justice system that allowed the largest crime in the history of this country to be not only perpetrated, but encouraged and rewarded with our taxes today, tomorrow, in perpetuity, it has to be stopped or there will be nothing left of our country.

I thought the Archbishop hit a rather interesting button tonight about original sin being to blame for the financial crisis. Many people may baulk at that idea (including Jeremy Paxman) but it's very simple really:

Original sin amounts to a failure to live in respect and relation to one another. If another (including God) asks us not to do something, we respect that. Instead humanity chose not to listen and respect the wishes of God, demonstrated by eating the fruit of a tree which was forbidden, and chose its own desire and self fulfilment.

Where Christians see Christ correcting that 'sin' is through an act of selflessness. In the giving act of his sacrifice of his own life he demonstrates that we redeem ourselves from sin not by having rules and regulations imposed upon ourselves externally which limit our behaviour – experience of human history has shown that we do not respond to that (as Adam and Eve also failed to do) - but by offering ourselves forward to be limited out of our own choice and desire, by giving and sharing ourselves for others.

If original sin amounts to selfishness, self will and greed, then the opposite of that is selflessness, responding to others' needs and giving. if the banking crisis comes down to original sin then the antidote is giving and offering freely - the solution is clear then:

we need to get all those people who have profited from this crisis to pay their large bonus cheques into a system of regulated (non governmental) philanthropy which will help those who have lost out - programmes that will get people back to work or get their lives back on track, through retraining, refinancing homes and community facilities, and support the million young people who are going to be jobless and paying back for decades the merciless amounts of debt our banking system has now burdened them with through bailouts.

Newsnight played it safe. Forty minutes of capitalists and their wannabe’s and ten minutes of fairly interesting stuff. I was amazed at my response to the Archbishop of Canterbury, some of what he said made sense which just shows how far to the right we have travelled over the last thirty years!
Paul Mason and his fragmented society was not accurate. There is no one for the left to identify with and collectivise that’s true. But right of the political spectrum there is plenty to cling on to. The growth of the far right throughout the west is frightening. The word resentment was mentioned, which I don’t believe is aimed at bankers etc, no it’s resentment about immigration. Because the Government is doing its job, being a gatekeeper and protecting capitalist interests, people are blaming what they perceive is a problem that they can address at street level.
Defragmentation of the left is a problem. There has been a huge swing in propaganda in the support of capitalism and democracy being one of the same. Obviously they are not the same. Though listening to the capitalists tonight who were quite happy to dictate what the government ought to do was evidence that they have become glued together!
In the end the fact that capitalists, protected by the state, own the means of production, and there lays the problem, was not mentioned once. Marx wrote Das Capital in 1867, he discusses the very same issues then that are potentially catastrophic today with globalisation! We are just not allowed to have this debate!

#12 + #25
Barrie
It's with pleasure that I read your post at #12 and with laughter the one at #25
mimpromptu

keeganhm above missed out hugely, as the contribution made by the Archbishop tonight was almost exactly what has been missing from the debate to date. A different perspective. Not the usual 'Who is to blame' and 'How do we fix it' approach but actually posing a real question which might lead to a proper change in our society....What is wealth in society? It should be the basis upon which the next election is fought and it should be the basis of a fundamental change in politics across the world. All the talk of governement spending cuts and the difference between Conservative or Labour etc is really just nonsense and misdirection. For years we have been told central government spending is limited. Compromises must be accepted. Cuts are needed now, or soon. But yet when money is needed to sort out the financial system it is there. Why?...Because money is really not real. Our whole system is based on nothing more than trust and the illusion that a number on a screen in your 'bank account' is real. Quantative easing!!!...Come on - really it's just inventing money from nothing. What matters is people still trust you and value your money. Given the financial system is nothing more than a rules based illusion, it should actually be quite easy to change things very radically provided all the key countries agree to the new rules. To get the various political and economic interests to all agree is of course very difficult but to get the broader populations across the different coutries to agree would, I suspect, be a lot easier. Given we are all democracies it doesn't seem that impossible a task to bypass the existing power groups like the bankers, politicians, billionaires etc and use our existing system to change the way or society works. But it starts with listening to people like the Archbishop and looking for answers to the more important questions.

LET'S NOT GO THERE

A day or two back, I pointed out that we should avoid getting into apologies for past deeds (Turing) as, once started, we would never get to the end of the list of historical nastiness.
By the same token, we should not prosecute our power/money rogues as the proceedings would be endless. (I suppose the building of courts and prisons would receive a boost though.)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Where's my post gone to? I saw it here about 02.05.

ORIGINAL SIN: AN INCORRIGIBLE INFANTILE/ADOLESCENT IDENTITY DISORDER

lellieg (#27) "Original sin amounts to a failure to live in respect and relation to one another."

Yes. These days it's best seen as . Here's a covering APD/NPD types... ;-)

#31 from mimpromptu
I beg to disagree with you on that one, Barrie.
Given a chance, I'd like to apologise to a few people I knew from before my SSEES days but, alas, some of them are no longer with us.
I'm expecting quite a few apologies myself, especially since my SSEES days, but more than anything I'm expecting justice to be done for quite a lot I and some friends of mine have been forced to endure for all those years.

LIFE SHOULD BE A STICK OF ROCK (#29)

Length is not important, as long as it has CONTENTMENT written all the way through.

As an inventor, I am of the opinion that MAN'S inventiveness is as close to original sin as we will get, in this particular 'Warm Spell' of planet Earth. The Creator was undoubtedly female and, as such, conservative and nurturing of the group and of integrity in its broadest sense. But the drive to invent is Devilish, and has destroyed everything it touched.

Specifically: Devilish Man gave money a life of its own. Then He made it 'virtual' and then traded units of its absence - how inventive is that? Small wonder our male church looked on 'and saw that it was good' - by default. No wonder at all, that Mother Nature has gone into decline.

Whew! That was a good ramble. I'll get me coat.

I watched last night's episode with interest especially when the Archbishop told us that this crisis was down to "..Original Sin.." and the reaction from the other guests as well as the presenter.
Now, 5 years ago I would have joined them laughing at this seemingly ‘ridiculous’ statement but I have bothered to investigate the ‘other’ explanations and my options and, since then, I have become a Christian (where Jesus is accepted be God and atoned for our sin).

In fact, if you look at moral behaviour that is so evidently lacking, all the greed that everyone is shocked by, the bible warns of exactly the same human characteristics centuries ago, this has all happened before and it will all happen again. It is something that all of us that suffer from but, thankfully, there is a solution to all this and it can only be found in repentance and turning to the Lord for forgiveness.

MR GOOD-WORKS IAIN DUNCAN SMITH

He is in the news again with his think-tank. But why is he never challenged over the time his thinking 'tanked' and his perception plummeted (even though a million stood in the streets pointing the way)?

It is the usual way of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ interviews to get a politician into the studio, to discuss a bland topic, and then torpedo them with their past.
Let's have some more! The abject failure of IDS to see through the dazzle of Blair (or was it simply lack of courage?) dumped us into to Dubya's war on Tourists.

It is not too late Newsnight - ask IDS why we should put any store by his current proposals, when he went right through with the disastrous marriage to Blair!

As usual Paxman brilliant but oh you missed it. Boss of WPP has paid out massive bonuses to his staff 58% of total profits Times today !!! Come onknow ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ cannot match 'Dispatches' (Jan Rayner doorstepping commodity trader; ex Hedge fund manager with cardboard cut outs of bankers asking people to guess how much the got paid-people where shocked when they found out )for brilliant innovative edgey reporting and as Paxo said about the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ coverage of the Royal Family is so genuflecting - why are you still so cosy with these people ? Peston asking Victor Bland about his cricket !!!Too 'cluby'
Too much 'Oxbridge' (Flanders !) not enough "vibrant, challenging, exciting Comprehensive- like where I used to teach-get the kids in to interview these people.
PS why no mention of the C word Captitalism on ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ 1 Might frighten the natives?
You are interviewing the prisoners who are still running the prison. Where are the Trade Union reps. the academics although David Hare put his finger on it -we are being blackmailed - as Andrew Neill said there is an investment strike and a lending strike. More straight talking needed.

ON BULL-TERRIERS AND LICENCES

for the cognoscenti/attentive.

robwashere (#37) "I have become a Christian (where Jesus is accepted be God and atoned for our sin)."

Please see the link in #6 and the recent Newsnight piece on IDF rabbis. Appeals to a greater being and prphets is not the answer. Examination of genes and behaviour (see #40, and what Martin Narey has been saying belatedly) is a far better bet.

a brilliant Newsnight and Jeremy was in top form with a flow that few other presenters could match, even the Archbishop was on the button and sometimes NN can be a grind with some pretty unappetising fare but last night was NN at it's best. Who else on the network can tackle in-depth subjects like the global crisis and get informed opinion from all quarters and give a long programme the feeling that you didn't want it to end. Well done.

THE SENIOR SERVICE (#37)

Congratulations on your choice of truth/faith Rob, as things stand, it is the only one FOUNDED by (1/3 of) the Godhead. Unless and until it is usurped by 2/3 or unity of that Primal Force, you are in the prime slot.

I regret I shall not be joining you in heaven, I (apparently) have a pain-filled destiny; my sin, of course, being doubt. (:0)

SERVICE TO INFINT (#33)

19. At 01:28am on 16 Sep 2009, infint wrote: ON THE THREAD BELOW

I'm not an economist, I'm an engineer. When a machine or system seems to be poorly matched to the job it is expected to do, I tend to fall back on first principles. What exactly is the job I expect this machine to do?

In order to understand the economic situation and its problems and remedies, I would like the answer to 3 questions?
What is money? What is wealth? What is growth?

I imagine some sort of limited society e.g. 1000 people living in a closed environment. Nothing comes in and nothing goes out except maybe energy.

From this I have some ideas.

Money is essentially an accounting system - You owe me, I owe him, he owes you. The monetary value of something is determined by supply and demand. On this basis, the trading of money to make money is a dangerous illusion.

Wealth is the accumulation of some sort of asset which can be traded. It is essentially inequality. If someone is wealthy then someone else is less wealthy. I am not comfortable with the idea that wealth can be accumulated by taking assets from the less fortunate.

Growth is the spread of a new idea. One person does it, then 10, then 100. Growth is limited by at least 2 factors; the size of the population and the amount of resources required. When economists seem to assume that the only healthy economy is a growing economy, where are the limits?
Building a new supermarket does not mean new jobs (except for the builders), it just moves some jobs from the old supermarkets. You can only sell so many cans of beans.

At his point I might conclude that the present economic crisis is only a hint

The Archbishop's analysis was I think most enlightening - Has he missed his true vocation!

Let's hope he has more to say as he is a breath of fresh air to the debate in contrast to the staleness provided by an army of economists and biased city analysts!

So Straw and probably Huhne will have their High Noon with Nick Griffin on Question Time sometime soon (Guardian).

You can see why Peter Hain objects but I think that provided Griffin is not allowed to bypass issues like "the BNP is not a Nazi Party" and the various lies like "local murders that never happened" and Holocaust "agnosticism" (denial) it could be productive. Will Griffin condemn the English Defence League football hooligans and the alleged abduction of a Muslim at knifepoint I wonder.

The audience control will be interesting - will their be the Griffin "heavies" standing by or will the Beeb have to have their own.

But then of course as the "BNP website gets more hits than all of the other parties combined" it seems probable that they will win the next general election so probably the audience will be full on BNP types!?

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Excellent to see real posters on here.

#19 jaded_Jean

"Surely you enjoyed the lively exchanges between members Newsnight's (essentially Jewish) 'Political Panel' which regularly debated (gossiped about) the ever so subtle nuances of red, orange and blue liberal-democratic politics, for what seemed like years?
"

You are, as ever, quite happy to identify the Jews as an "internal political and economic threat" and that of course reveals so much about you. Your reverence for Hitler, the Holocaust "agnosticism" and so on.

But you always fail miserably to "explicate" why you see them as that threat.

Stalin ejected "anarchists and Trotskyites" in the thirties that may have included Jews. The fact that the Nazis described Jews just as you do does not mean that there was a factual basis for what is apparently a totally unhinged hatred.

You often try to cite the position of Jews in society as though it proves something but there is never anything approaching factual analysis that is supported by any major scientific or academic institution anywhere in the world.

In general I know that you cannot grasp the quite simple fact that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races and there is no basis in science for your racial prejudices.

#5 ziizog

"What we need is for everyone to know alternative ways of running things and then we can democratically vote for change, instead what we call democracy is in fact totalitarianism
Why does Newsnight not address the true issues ever or ask the really challenging questions!"

One - the thesis that democracy is totalitarianism is totally flawed and ridiculous and unsupported by any facts that show that assertion to be true. Intrinsically democracy cannot be totalitarianism - unless it is not democracy and there is no reason to believe that.

Two - many far right posters on this page try to imply that the entire world is in favour of the BNP and National Socialism with its cheery attitude to "non-indigenous" races such as Jews (Jaded_Jean, various, above). Given the great majority of citizens express their satisfaction with the system through the voting system and only two elected officials on the national scene (Griffin and Brons) that shows the petitions of those like the English Defence League - who are "not the BNP" - don't really reflect the bigger picture.

The far right gets by with lies about their intentions and lies to stoke up trouble. They are "not a Nazi Party" and they used images of a Spitfire and Chirchill on their campaign leaflets.

How many of those that did vote for the BNP know what they were voting for and of the rest how many used it as a protest on expenses and immigration.

#9 brossen99

"Perhaps we are under " occupation " by the stock market parasite Corporate Nazi's with the equivalent of a " Vichy French " style puppet government whichever party theoretically wins the alleged democratic elections ?"

Why are they alleged democratic elections? What is the evidence for a "theoretical" win?

Do people on the far right ever think about using facts to back up their assertions?

The BNP is not a democratic party by the way and would replace democracy with National Socialist tyranny.

thegangofone (#47) "you always fail miserably to "explicate" why you see them as that threat."

Is it at all conceivable to you that you may not be very good at picking up on what you are told/shown?

1. Have a look at the demographics highlighted here #5 and events emanating from this location over the past couple of years.

2. Read the link in post #6.

If, on the off-chance, you are indeed, as you assert, representative of the liberal-democratic population as a whole, I fear for our collective future.

Who chooses a playwright, a historian & an archbishop as experts on the effects of an economic recession?

Sounds like a joke.

neilninepercent (#51) They were just the last leg. The programme as a whole was quite well produced. It's worth watching if you haven't done so already. For once, there was some reasonably straight talk, especially in the first 2/3 of the programme. The Archbishop was OK, it's just better to deal with the drivers in mundane terms. The problem is that the behaviours are, to the best of our knowledge, incorrigible (untreatable). It's relatively low frequency overall, but in some walks of life much higher than people realise (as is high intelligence). The best one can hope to do is to a) not encourage the proliferation (birth-rate) of those affected and b) try to humanely contain those who are, so they cause the least harm possible to both themselves and to others. Alas, in recent times we appear to have been glorifying and rewarding them instead...

We know they are often , hence 'satanic', 'evil' and the term 'original sin'. Any efforts to find fault with or even correct their behaviour, will often be met with extremely hostile, if not irrational responses as they don't think there's anything wrong with them. They don't change. As a consequence, most people learn not to challenge them.....It's a problem :-(.

"GORDON (JAMES - ACTUALLY) BROWN WOULD NEVER MISLEAD PARLIAMENT"

So says No 10. But we all know that James was DESPERATE to out-Blair Blair himself. So poor wee Jimmie has no CHOICE but to mislead Parliament - even lie! What is more, he has little time in which to start his OWN war. The Blair image is slipping away from him. The smile just doesn't work, and is abandoned. Is he, perhaps, planning ritual humiliation at the 'hands' of the Women's Institute? Or to be de-trousered in front of a hospital, by an irate lady? Come on James - Tony is laughing at you; waving his Gold medal for Warmanship (courtesy of Dubya Bush) in your face! Do something GREAT for goodness sake!

IT'S BLACK AND WHITE!

Consider: If Obama were white, the realisation that he is America's Tony Blair - the smile, the oratory, the rhetoric, the say-anything ethos, the background in law - all vintage Blair - would have become painfully apparent.

How sad the no one ever yelled 'you liar' at Blair. I would have found it cathartic.

#54 from mimpromptu
Barrie
I've always found sweeping comparisons like that pointless, if not stupid, in fact. They are miles away from each other on many an issue. You share your first name with the dimunitive of Mr Obama's first name and I have a friend named Barrie who is one of the Westminster sweepers. I would like to be able to consider all of you as my friends but cannot do so as I haven't met all of you in person. Well, I'm writing this really because there is a lot of misplaced identification going around affecting the media, etc By the way, I've always been like that,i.e. rigid identifications and generalisations. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I find creativity relatively easy in the areas I could be considered good at.

NIXON WAS BEST ON RADIO - KENNEDY BEST ON TV (#55)

But the real test, Mim, is to PRINT OUT THE SPEECH AND GO THROUGH IT LINE-BY-LINE, asking why that word, why that phrase? The waters are muddied - in a way that I find disrespectful to the receiving audience - by the use of speech-writers, but the orator must live with whatever words they speak, in the final analysis.

I do not make my observation of the Blair/Obama identity lightly. I have done my homework. I rather suspect you are relying on your feelings and do not know the male and his ways. The printed page does not orate and rhetoric is disempowered.

Watched a recording of the programme last night and found it very interesting. My main criticism is that the debate is too narrow and some expert, non political opinion on our changing world climate and changing health issues as a knock on from climate change, would have given a wider picture of how our world economies, in my view, are going to be forced to change. The next crisis, I believe, is food shortage and water pollution from flooding and this will of course affect our jobs, the world economy and our health. Surely a debate that 'joins the dots' of what is happening globally and how we can prepare for these changes would be helpful and would get people thinking. It would also create different jobs that are more community based and environmentally friendly. In my view we are not going to go back to how it was economically and we are not going to continue to talk about and maintain wealth growth and prosperity because these are hollow goals that don't allow for a balanced, humane and peaceful world and will also soon be overtaken by events.