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some seem to think the carbon games is a shill game



the 24 hour news have been playing emotive climate rot all day and the hard core left and the naive have been pumping the 'narrative' up in newspaper articles.

it has to be a mass psychosis of groupthink?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

....Between 2008 and 2012, the UK power sector will make at least an additional 1.3 billion euros purely from carbon trading...

the European system has so far failed in its fundamental aim to reduce emissions, meaning its only effect is to redistribute wealth among companies and traders.

Secondly, the market is a magnet for derivatives that few people understand, which some believe may brew up a speculative bubble.

Lastly, there are easy opportunities for fraud, given the intangible nature of the product changing hands.



easy money this climate stuff. no wonder those cashing in want more of it?

nice short film on cap and trade.

"The Story of Cap and Trade"



i don't agree with the climate justice bit and its a bit 'californian' in places but explains the scams well.

/iplayer/the_politics_show_north_west

You can skip through the Cameron waffle to get to the juicy bits.

I've been asking friends what proportion of the atmosphere do they think is comprised of CO2. Try this in the office or in the pub and then look up the answer. It helps to put things in proportion.

Actually,
it doesn't matter at this time whether CO2 emissions need to be reduced or not....


Changes in electricity and transport (80% of CO2 emissions) should be
done anyway for very different advantages,
including electricity bills that are lowered from opening up
electricity grids to competition,
that can also have smart meters set to automatically give the cheapest (and/or greenest) electricity at any time,
which might also be powering some cars


The simple focus on the largely local electricity and transport sectors,

avoids expensive meaningless emission trading (cap and trade) with its
loopholes,
avoids international tension arising out of trade with less regulated countries,
avoids alienating people by telling them what Light Bulbs or TV sets
they can or cannot use,
and easily meets 2020/2030 emission targets.

In 2020/2030 - if CO2 reduction is still seen as warranted - other
industries can be involved.

Otherwise, nothing has been lost.


_______________________________________

Understanding why currently proposed Emission Trading will not work

Emission Trading (Cap and Trade)

Basic Idea
Offsets -- Tree Planting -- Manufacture Shift -- Fair Trading
Allowances: Auctions + Hand-Outs -- Allowance Trading
Companies: Business Stability + Cost
In Conclusion

I've been asking friends what proportion of the atmosphere do they think is comprised of CO2. Try this in the office or on the pub and then look up the answer. It helps to get things in proportion.

#4 Jaunty

CAP AND TRADE

Einstein said:No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.

A HUGE congratulations to the Newsnight Team for winning an Emmy Award for Business and Financial Reporting :o)

7 & 9. Glyn

Most of the Earth's atmosphere is made up of nitrogen (about 78%) and oxygen (about 20%) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) accounts for 0.0001%.
Other gases such as Neon, Helium & Krypton, Methane, Sulphur dioxide, Ozone and Nitrogen Oxides are also present in very small quantities; between them also less than 1%.
Water Vapour is also present and fluctuates regionally between less than 1% to up to 4% in warm and humid tropical air.



While both Nitrogen and Oxygen play important roles in the vast number of processes that support life on Earth, they play almost no direct role in regulating the climate.
This is carried out by some of the trace gases in the remaining 1% of the atmosphere which occur in relatively small amounts; these are known as greenhouse gasses. e.g. CO2, CH4 etc.

Greenhouse gases have special properties that trap some of this heat, they absorb long-wave infrared.
When the sun鈥檚 energy strikes the earth the heat from it鈥檚 energy is absorbed by the oceans and land, then radiated (released) back up into the atmosphere and towards space as infrared radiation, heat.
It is the Greenhouse gasses that trap some of this heat and stop it escaping directly into space, this warms the atmosphere and is known as the 'Greenhouse effect'.

This 鈥榞reenhouse effect鈥� is the mechanism by which Earth is warmed.
Without it the Earth鈥檚 surface temperature would be a much, much colder minus 18 degrees C. (0.4 degree Fahrenheit.)

Although invisible, gasses have weight. Although we are unaware of it air exerts a pressure on us of 14 & three quarters lbs per sq. inch (1Kg per sq. cm). This is the weight of the air pressing upon us.

The burning of fossil fuels releases around six billion tons of carbon into the air every year (economic and trade records let people account for that figure) and the burning of trees and peat contributes another three billion tons.
(The atoms that matter contains aren鈥檛 destroyed when burnt, they can only be transformed into another state, in this case a gas. This follows the scientific law known as 'conservation of mass'. This states that mass, or matter, can neither be created from nothing nor completely destroyed.)

The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere may seem insignificant, but as another example all trees and plants in the world have formed their biomass by absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere; nutrients taken from the ground are much, much less important in forming mass; photosynthesis converts carbon dioxide from the air to carbohydrates and other kinds of 鈥榝ixed鈥� carbon and releases oxygen to the atmosphere.

The amount of carbon stored in dry wood is approximately 50% by weight.
Hence when you burn wood, straw, peat etc the carbon is oxidised and you're left with carbonised remains, the rest of the mass is released back into the atmosphere (combined with oxygen) as CO2.


See also:

These kind of gatherings generate a mass-hysteria for a common cause.

Like George Orwell鈥檚 Animal Farm book, where mass hysteria meant one pig
overtrumping another in self-sacrificial willingness
- except here it鈥檚 always someone else (not the politicians) who has
to make the sacrifice鈥�
鈥淲e must all cut down to save the planet鈥�

There is no energy shortage
(given renewable/nuclear development possibilities, with CO2 emission limits set as deemed necessary)
and consumers 鈥� not politicians 鈥� PAY for energy and how they wish to use it.
Notice: If there WAS an energy shortage, its price rise would
鈥� limit people using it anyway, and make renewable energy more attractive
鈥� make energy efficient products more attractive to buy.
No need to legislate for it.


And since when do light bulbs, TV sets etc give out any CO2 gas?
Not like cars.
And cars are taxed.
They could of course tax the bulbs etc, and lower the tax on energy efficient alternatives.
Governments make money on the reduced sales, they can pay for CO2 emission processing and renewable energy, and consumers keep choice.
Taxes are unjustified, but better for all than bans.

Few people seem aware of the industrial politics behind
supposed environmental consumer regulation...

#14 Peter

The low energy bulb doesn't save energy or reduce CO2 emissions in Scotland.

Tonight it is a clear and cold. The reduced heat output from the low energy bulbs just means the heating (gas) comes on early and longer. The lower background temperature kicking in the thermostat sooner.

(The house is as well insulated as possible)

Celtic Lion

If was a mad, mad, mad idea trying to turn a human into a robot
Not only illegal but also immoral,
Hoping to make lots of gold and hoping to then rule the world.
In the first place it is not workable
Though perhaps with some short term results
In the long run, however, it is utterly nuts.
A human is more than mechanics
However many hormones one picks
How do they account for my twirling
And can they ditt like I鈥檓 dittying?
No! I am uncontrollable, they鈥檝e picked the wrong girl
But even then, I鈥檓 sure it also would fail.

mim

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

An idea has been brewing in my mind of gliding and twirling live with Susan Boyle singing and a big orchestra and chorus accompanying us. Well, if not live, then in a film.

Hopefully, that would also become a hit with worldwide reverberations?!

mim

And this is the climate here now, slowing sinking into a third world state....







Does anyone else read the Migrationwatch site? I do and it's very very depressing. Why worry about our carbon footprint, it gets ever bigger every day as thousands more poor people move in to live here.

Ecolizzy

A few days ago you said something to the effect:
'We're only there for the energy.'
I wonder whether you could possibly expand on this: who is we and what/who is the source of the energy?

mim

It's coming up to midnight
Tomorrow I鈥檒l catch up
On what's been said tonight
On the issue of change in the climate on Earth
And whether the summit is proving its worth.

mim

IT'S GOING TO BE ALRIGHT - BROWN HAS DECLARED SMART GOVERNANCE

Is 'Smart' better than 'Prudent'? and Does 'smart' mean 'too-clever-by-half' or effective? I have a bad feeling he means the latter - so what are Prezza and Limited Ed doing 'in post'? (I don't want to consider Mandelson - too depressing - now he IS smart, a real smartbottom.)

The whole thing is surreal farce, and THEY HAVE NO IDEA!

Beyond weeping.

Those messages of mine that do not make it through do get pass on to whom it may concern, so it's just about a useless exercise to try and ban them.

They are seen, and recorded, in fact, during the process of me writing them.

mim

#23
should be 'do get passed on to whom they may concern'

I've just found the following article about Sacha Cohen being accused of character defamation of a Palestinian grocer, Mr Ayman Abu Aita:

and have come up with a ditty on the subject.
Lol, who now appears in most of my ditties, is a friend.

Lol, I woke up to the news
That Sacha is to be sued
For defaming a grocer
By claiming he was a violent man
A terrorist, in fact, I understand.

The guy's life has been ruined
By the film star's jokes putrid,
So he needs to clear his name
And get all those millions in turn.

I remember some guests on Newsnight Review
Singing praises of Cohen鈥檚 sense of fun and of humour.
I hope more will come forward accusing the 'star'
So he coughs up every penny he's made
And keep him well away from public domain.

mim

This one is off topic but I feel it needs attention.



Right Ive had enough of all this. Only stupid people would put their gold into a bag and post it to some company they don't know.


Everyone out there if your thinking to sell your gold jewellery make sure you can do it IN PERSON and look up what the current scrap price of gold is on-line. Gold in the UK is fixed twice a day in the morning and afternoon.


There is usually a legal requirement for the make of scales and to be verified - that they are giving an accurate readings, make sure this is so with who ever you sell and what the requirements are by contacting the relevant authority in what ever county you live - in the UK - trading standards . When you visit make sure all is transparent - that you can see the scales and the readings, then work it out for yourself - take a calculator with you and don't be rushed by the sales person - if its 10 grams multiply it by the price per gram they are paying say 8.25GBP for 9ct a gram so its 10 x 8.25 . Also ask if the price they publish is what they pay - I found one company take 8% off for a 'casting cost' - stay away from that!


Here is real time info on the gold price in Dollars and GBP:

Nos 25 - Mim

Good ditty Mim hope things are OK .

I have now watched substantial chunks of last night鈥檚 Newsnight.

Although it is too early to know what results the Copenhagen summit is going to come up with, it鈥檚 certainly encouraging to see the determination of the summit鈥檚 delegates not to let the anti-lobby against reduction of the CO2 and greenhouse gas effects (or is it one and the same thing?) undermine the need for to change in the way we look after our Planet Earth.

Kirsty Wark鈥檚 conversation with Christine Schmid was one of the most humane and intelligent interviews I have seen for a long time, with Mrs Schmid eloquent and moving portrayal of her husband鈥檚 commitment to his work as a Commando showing the need for us to honour, remember and appreciate all those soldiers who have died in the region. I also think that she is right about the need for us to know more about hundreds of injured soldiers and thereby showing them at least moral support.

It looks like the Welsh Save Family project prepared by Jackie Long is a sensible one as surely it is better to help disturbed young people become responsible adults and learn how to look after their kids rather than splitting families apart and probably leaving the parents in even more mess than originally. And it looks like it actually works out cheaper than having the kids adopted, etc. The only snag, apparently, is people getting used to living in safe accommodation being looked after day and night and then finding it difficult to cope in the real world once they move out.

To those who鈥檝e read this, thank you for your attention.

mim

Nos 26

I might also add that anything unusual should be checked - any makings on the jewellery and by doing a search online and asking a specialist if it could seem to be much more valuable. Jewellery by a noted person/company will have a higher market value and not scrap . I recently found that my mother had a piece of jewellery by Geoffrey Guy Bellamy - a noted Silversmith - she was unaware of this.

#27

Thank you, Streetphotobeing, I'm fine and things are being sorted out.

As per Leonard Cohen, light normally shines through the tightest of cracks.

mim

Roger #14

Light bulbs
You are more right than you imagine...
the ban is particularly unfortunate for Northern Europe
(apart from the heat factor - which ironically the insulation home schemes will improve - ordinary light bulbs come on quicker in the cold, the completely banned frosted light bulbs are particularly popular,
people have bigger homes with more lighting points and need for different lights, they spend more time at home, and CO2 emissions are often low =much hydropower, nuclear electricity)


That is not to say that people shouldn't think about saving CO2 emissions etc, assuming the science is right:

It's just a pity that politicians seek to grab the headlines with symbolic consumer bans, rather than dealing with the emissions themselves, via power supply changes:
Taxation on light bulbs etc helps to pay for it, while keeping choice
(energy efficient products could have sales taxes lowered), and taxation can be lifted once sufficient low emission energy is in place.
Taxation isn't really justified, but a better way in my view than bans.

#31

Interesting, Peter, you talking about 'saving' CO2 emissions while the vast majority of World Leaders and Scientists talk about reducing/cutting down on them.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by installing sufficient low emission energy and in what place.

The issue is not getting rid of high/highly powered energy but rather how to apply it wisely.

mim

#31 Peter

Once we have found that low energy bulbs are no more efficient due to the heating abilities of standard bulbs increasing background warmth of an insulated house and deferring the need for the heating to be activated.

We must then move from a false over simplified carbon audit. The low energy bulbs contain toxic chemicals such as mercury. Potentially environmentally damaging in production and disposal, more than the standard bulb.

back to the graffiti

usual happy clappy copenhagen primary colours lets not think too deep roll a cone festival

IT is coming.

smarter government starts with having qualified people running it? who would elected a ships captain with no proof of seamanship? yet this is what uk democracy does. it institutionalises incompetence. You can become head of defence with no more acquaintance with war than having read at school the pocket commando comic books. No experience of man management than having watched football managers jump up and down on the telly. No experience of good government than having read books about King Arthur.

why does competence matter? Iraq, credit crunch, mod waste/sabotage, carbon trading etc

institutional incompetence costs lives and money.

#33

Roger Thomas

I knew there was a snag to the low energy bulbs but didn't know the details which you have now explained. There is never a simple solution to such complicated issues as energy, is there?

I've just had an e-mail from a friend of mine praising me for having so much energy and inviting me, therefore, to give some of it to a cause. However, I feel my energy is already hugely sucked out by unwarranted forces, so I shall write back to him saying thank but no, thank you.

Thanks

mim

#35 Mim

Thanks. The situation may apply to you. Once you may have been comfortably warm on some evenings using you computer by the heat generated by a nearby desk or reading lamp.

With an 'energy saving' bulb you may now have to turn on the heating to keep the chill away.

#34 Jaunty

Don't really have to add to that. Apart from, do you have a solution to the madness?

Celtic Lion

SECONDED (#34)

While Westminster (ethos) endures, nothing will change. We can start with the next election. Hung Parliaments need NOT be dominated by the old guard. Choose a local INDIVIDUAL and send them to Westminster to

SPOIL PARTY GAMES

...Science Editor Susan Watts will report* on what the delegates drawn from 192 countries hope to achieve ...

...We will be discussing the issues** in the studio with guests including John Prescott, who helped broker the original UN climate change deal in December 1997.

The most important messages deserve the most professional*, trusted** messengers.

*/blogs/newsnight/susanwatts/2009/01/restoring_science_to_its_right.html

**

Between 'enthusiastic' edit suites, short memories and a desire in some quarters not to ask inconvenient questions, I am sure all we get offered will be truly 'unique'. As always.

#38 JunkkMale

The link restoring science heavily quotes and refers James Hansen.

The most vociferous critic of the carbon trading solution prosed at Copenhagen



Celtic Lion