成人论坛

#2 Brossen

Those figures seem to agree with what i knew before. In September I attended a UK Government conference on the environment. Sir David King was a key speaker. He outlined a proposal to limit CO2 to 3 tonnes per person by 2050. Based on a global population of 9 billion.

This I could not make sense of especially as he was talking about him and Al Gore flying round the world to attend various climate conferences.

Who subsidises the 'global elite' to maintain their lifestyles if total global emissions are capped? Everyone else?

Emissions targets per capita have been reduced from figures given out less than 3 months ago. Enough wriggle room to allow life as usual for some, subsidised by the rest.

RED HERRING OR ED. ERRING?

'...And what happens when you really don't like the choice of schools in your neighbourhood? Well, if you're journalist Toby Young, you build a new one '

SCHOOL BUILDING is a red herring.
Just as:
Someone who stands in a garage is not likely to be a car!
any more than
Someone who goes to church is necessarily a Christian
any more than
someone who sits in a brand spanking new shiny equipped classroom is a well balanced well educated human being.

Some basic assessments of need should be undertaken before another penny is spent on 鈥榖uildings鈥� or curriculum development.

Just what do we need the populace of the future to be able to do to be useful (I almost said valuable but someone will equate that too simply with 拢 S and D) human beings.

What we need to know is what end product is required, in what volume , when and what environment is best suited to delivery. One size most certainly does NOT fit all!

Then, what should we be measuring? Intelligence and application rarely sit close together. Genius usually exists in isolation from common sense.

Then who should be in charge of delivery of the necessary system. Teachers, most of whom know scant little of anything but the institution of educational establishments from the age of 4 鈥� I suggest NOT!

Tough and honest root and branch re-assessment is required 鈥� Not just cosmetics and facelifts!

I shall watch with interest.

TAMIFLU

Scientific peer review?

NHS spent 拢500 million

#1 brossen99 re-Climate change conference

I'm not too interested in the proceedings at Copenhagen and will not bother to reduce my carbon footprint unless the factor of population control is discussed. IF homsaps are a major cause of adverse climate change, then control of their numbers should be on the agenda.

In any event, there is no questioning the facts that (i) world poverty could and should be alleviated by responsible family planning: and
(ii)over-population brings a host of problems (as per previous posts).

However, the link you provided prompts the following observations:-

"A confidential analysis of the text by developing countries shows deep unease over details of the text. In particular, it is understood to:

"Force developing countries to agree to specific emission cuts and measures that were not part of the original UN agreement;"

It should instead require specific family planning programmes to achieve optimum population size consistent with the capacity of each country to be self-supporting (without continual demands for overseas aid

" Divide poor countries further by creating a new category of developing countries called "the most vulnerable";

This category to be assessed on factors such as child mortality and life expectancy.

" Weaken the UN's role in handling climate finance;"
Family planning and population control statistics will strengthen the UN's role in determining justification for financial assistance.

If, as seems to be the case, per capita is to be taken into account in the great carbon credit swindle, then the threatened wave of 'climate refugees' should also be taken into the per capita calculation ie climate refugees to be added to the debt of the emigrant country, and deducted from the debt of the receiving country. This unwanted form of 'carbon capture' should be acknowledged. Climate change seems set to become yet another excuse to burden our island with the excess populations of 'the most vulnerable/irresponsible'.



















鈥� Not allow poor countries to emit more than 1.44 tonnes of carbon per person by 2050, while allowing rich countries to emit 2.67 tonnes.

Developing countries that have seen the text are understood to be furious that it is being promoted by rich countries without their knowledge and without discussion in the negotiations.

POPULATION CONTROL (#5)

Low-number families in hot climes, surely, need lots of medication? A gift to Big Pharma. Then the girls will all work hard at school (affordable for the few) and become procreation-deniers. They will all start businesses, needing energy and raw materials (while the sidelined men take to nihilism).
There will be a boom in policing, courts and prison-building.

Britain in Africa! Rejoice!

Glad the Government sorted the Iraq situation out.

Having been successful there I wait with confidence now they focus their skills on climate change in Copenhagen.

How long has Emily been reading Trucker?

Oh it's on the news that the Danish Government document on climate change was a plan B, discussed with the UK Government. But Gordon Brown said there was no plan B.



but the plan b was being discussed for weeks before it hit the headlines today. Just shows how much the delegates and journalists know what is going on.



What a mess.

..how he would cut the national debt ..

there it is. i said they would call it that rather than the more accurate bankers debt [it is the larger part of it].

Iraq

-we broke it but we didn't own it and we didn't fix it and most of those those who did have moved on elsewhere.

What would Truckers week say about emily?

one of the most accurate descriptions of the ladies on NN was given by alexei sale in one of his books. you know the one.

'.....one of the most accurate descriptions of the ladies on NN was given by alexei sale in one of his books. you know the one.'

Um............. NO! Do tell?

WELL WHADAYA KNOW - THE BAD GUYS ARE USING 'SOPHISTICATED COORDINATED ATTACK'!

Would that be called 'Shock and Awe' by any chance? Where would they have learned that? Pakistan?

NO SAYLE (#8)

Alexei also explained English biscuits to a pseudo Mexican bandit. Not sure he should be given too much attention.

Moodys just came out and said the UKs credit rating could be downgraded from AAA, which would mean higher interest on government debt at the very least, and at worst spark capital flight, and given British banks exposure to even more toxic assets that is Dubai how long have we got before the inevitable implosion of the country and our demotion to 3rd world banana republic?

As for the Iraq inquiry, has anyone noticed that all the evidence against Saddam having WMD hasn't even been mentioned? A couple of examples of the top of my head are that Hussein Kamel, Saddam鈥檚 son-in-law, who Saddam had put in charge of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, and defected to the West in 1995 when debriefed said that all the WMDs had been destroyed in 1991, or that any claims that Saddam had stockpiles of Sarin were obvious nonsense as the UN weapons inspectors who took apart his previous WMD program found that the quality was so bad that it would degrade so quickly that within 4-6 weeks it would be inert. I could pull out all my old files and go on and on but it doesnt matter now, we we lied to by the whole government, MPs, civil service, the intelligence services, they sold out the country, so now Tony Blair does speaking tours, the civil servants and MPs get promotions and fat pensions and we get blown to peices on the Tube.

The astounding feature of the proposals by New Labour, or anyway of those which have been trailed, is just how timid they are in terms of Labour principles; even Tony Blair claimed his social objectives were progressive, even if he allowed Gordon Brown to adopt less progressive fiscal policies. Yet, despite an electorate howling for more progressive taxes - in other words soaking the rich - and every economic justification for doing just this, the government seems to be allowing the bankers (and their rich cronies across industry) to blackmail them into doing almost nothing.

It is true that large parts of the UK economy are now managed by fat cats who earn shameless amounts of money. It is also true that they threaten to withdraw their labour and take their business to friendlier places. But can they, would they? Like most other bullies they are cowards at heart and would be scared to leave the comfortable climate they would still enjoy here. And why would others want them when they have been seen to be such failures?

There is only one answer: call their bluff! Strong government demands that they do. I am sure the bankers will take the easy way out; and settle for incomes in the hundreds of thousands rather than tens of millions. Is it worth there them risking all, when they already have it? And, if they really are right, and we really do need them, we can just as quickly reverse the process - and the Conservatives probably will do just that. So what have we to lose.

Face them down. Take a stand.

Lawson and Robinson are yesterdays men.

Robinson cut spending at Granada Tv it finished them off
as a serious programme maker.

He made the ridiculous statement of saying no more Bridesheads
would be made.

Blanchflower is right.

Lawson and Robinson speak like it is 1971.
Both of them seem not to have noticed that bad
banking proceedures brought the western financial
system to it's knees. I would not let either of those
manage an ice cream van.

Toby Young.
Is he in it for the long term?
Will he still be there in twenty years
supporting them? I think not.

The reason many turned up at his meeting was
because they knew Newsnighr would be there.

This story has no legs.

#14 Ron Taylor...Hear, hear!

I could understand it from Lawson...he looks like a dinosaur in a wig...but Robinson came across as just dumb.

Blanchflower was the only person in the previous MPC with any credibility intact...and he then he left the MPC.

...nuff said!

I have just finished listening to the Newsnight debate about the upcoming Pre-Budget Report. Regrettably it was one of the most unproductive I have heard in recent months. Quite why it had to be so unbalanced was not explained. The one Keynesian, hampered by being in New York, was treated almost as a side show; with Emily Maitlis letting the other two dominate the debate - even to the extent of signalling him to shut up. Instead we had Geoffrey Robinson, who is normally very sensible, indeed sounding very sensible, but basically just saying that efficiency savings could be made. No doubt this is true, and both Labour and Conservatives both back this claim; though, as his other programmes have reported, neither party has managed this - and my own work on similar approaches in multinationals has run eventually have the good grace to discretely admit that this would in practice would take many years (and hence would not address the current problems).

Then, truly inexplicably we had Nigel Lawson; claiming that his 'Big Bang' bonfire of banking regulations in 1987 - which was probably the one most important reason for the collapse of the banks - actually increased regulation. Not only that, but he also managed to claim that Thatchers' attack on the public sector at the beginning of the 1980s resulted in growth; when I, and I suspect many others, remember his PM wandering through devastated industrial landscapes as unemployment rocketed. Of course, with North Sea Oil and the sale of nationalised utilities, there was some reduction in borrowing - but it was scarcely a boom time for most of us; even Harold Macmillan thought Lawson was selling off the family silver.

Couldn't you have found some better speakers, such as Vince Cable, to bring some sanity to this important debate?

GERRY ROBINSON NOT QUITE DUMB

When asked if he would employ Brown et al, his (guarded) reply that they are constrained in order to get re elected, was tantamount to:

SPOIL PARTY GAMES

HEY NEWSNIGHT!

Any chance we can have subtitles explaining the award winning graphics REALTIME (rolled out going forward)? When Darling had images dribbling down him, I was at a loss as to what the significance was. Subtitles would have helped.

TOBY YOUNG

At least Emily picked up his only clear objective - to offer choice. (doh)

Surely part of the problem of modern life and for parents is TOO MUCH CHOICE. Where is the substance?

What about the bottom line. What our schools should be teaching, to who, by who, how, when......?


Was nice seeing my old stomping grounds though

been watching the iraq inquiry.

scarlett just looks like someone promoted above his pay grade.

The first part of the session is spent showing how careful every word through constant reviews and discussions is considered in the JIC but then with the regard the 'deploy weapons in 45 mins' he says it could have been clearer to say munitions rather than weapons. which is just a wind up or incompetence.

is he asking us to believe that people habituated in wordcraft didn't know the impact their 'ambiguity' would have in selling the war? That no one in the JIC spotted it? that he felt no need to correct the obvious misinterpretation that happened?

he also admits he took no action over tony blairs misleading forward to the dossier that 'it has been proved beyond doubt'

its really quite disappointing if this is an example of the 'brightest and the best'.

one interesting thing from the inquiry is that no minister is given any kind of training in how to interpret intelligence reports even though they have their own special and specific language. the uk system institutionalises incompetence.

I knew I was right!

Some parts of the country, like Scotland, need and want more population while others, like the South East, are at the limit of environmental sustainability."



I've been saying for years the population has exploded in the South East, I went to Canterbury today, it was hard to hear an english voice. I've read many posts where people have said that, but now I know what they mean.
I'm on my way Roger and BYT, you obviously knew what you were doing! ; )

I do wish the 成人论坛 would leave Nigel Lawson back in the 1980's where he belongs; last week Andrew Neil had him on Hardtalk bleating about what his solutions to the crisis would be (whilst plugging his latest book) his answers and direction are classic nasty Tory stuff - screw the workers, screw the public services, don't invest in tomorrow to try and promote growth - just cut, cut cut and let the city, the bankers and the wealthy pull us out of the very mess they got us into - but let's not cut anything that they might hold dear! As for Gerry Robinson - nice guy sure but really stuck in the past. All power to the Professor - finally someone not afraid to point an accusatory finger (at Lawson) where it belongs and differentiate this crisis from the old style Tory financial crises of yesterday.

No Lizzy
It's all a lie. The weather is horrible, the roads just dirt tracks, the food foul, the language incomprehnsible, the savages.............. well savage, culture non existent, and not a waitrose or Ikea in over 100 miles.

That's why every time government departments, civil servants and major busines head quarters are offered incentives to move north, they can't bring themselves to do it.

#24 Hey Brighty that's not the picture Roger paints! ; ) Don't let the scots who post here read that! ; )

Another rat study for Barrie

OUTSIDE THE REMIT? (#21)

The most damning aspect of '45 minutes' was the silence from on high, when the Headlines were so 'misleading'. It was obviously a set up - and it went perfectly.

I wanted the Chimps' Tea-party to ask Scarlett his thoughts when the papers 'got it wrong'. Did he do anything? Did he say anything? To anyone? These despicable enquiries are all so deja vu! Very Hutton. Clearly they take us for dummies and, sadly, it seems we are.

Just suffered the pre-budget, pre-budget debate: a Tory monetarist and a 鈥渞epresentative employer鈥� set to bray the same old hackneyed shibboleths at a bemused, whig economist. Its all very familiar and a bit pass茅. Could you not have found a single trade unionist to articulate employee鈥檚 interest? The TUC represents in excess of six and a half million tax paying workers. Come on guys, you even gave Nick a platform! Consequently one must conclude that if anybody is as deluded as to feel that class no longer matters it is only because debate (or, rather 鈥渃onsensus鈥�) has become the property of a privileged minority.

#24

I'm sorry to hear, Brightyangthing, that it's not always rosy weather wise where you live now. Here in London we are quire lucky on the whole both in terms of good and sunny days and choice of shops. Although seemingly living immersed in pollution, the many London parks do provide respite and I should imagine clear at the same time the atmosphere by whatever it's called. At the moment I can only recall the term 'photosynthesis' but will try and check up tomorrow on how precisely they do that.

All I know is that although I do smoke a fair amount, my plants are thriving in my London attic with one currently in full bloom. There is an extra advantage for them, however, i.e. basking in and being blessed by direct light.

mim

P.S, You're right. One policy is replaced by another with dramatic 'headline' changes announced by this or that party while it would be sensible to stop and think first before embarking on new policies as you describe in your posts today.

mim

Toby's young-uns are at that age - if you've got/had kids - we can then certainly empathise with him. Which 'big' school do we send our little darling too? ooh.. the year seven choice/no choice headache. Some cynics may berate Toby's motives, I don't and I'm working class. The middle class getting it in the neck yet again from the egalitarian quarter known as the socialist class warriors. They always love to shout this one down. The charge of elitism always at the vanguard of their attack...and funnily enough, this, from the same socialists mindset who send their little Diana and Abbot to only the best schools money or influence can buy. The bottom line is, we want, as parents the best for our children (hopefully) and if we see our local comprehensive or "Academy" not providing the best education we feel our children deserve, we'll why not give parents the power and finance to start their own school. Putting all the necessary ingredients into place. Rigorous learning and discipline has always fared better than the failed comprehensive style of education, having parents involved would be a bonus.
Having Fiona Miller on was like having chairman Mao discuss the virtues of communism whilst disregarding the dead bodies that keep it upright. This woman is a nightmare, a nightmare of gigantic proportions. She has championed the failed education system and has had influence in it for years...she needs to be kept away from anything remotely important, especially the education of our children. And since when has Phillips joined the profession of journalism, I didn't see her pin that badge on herself, when did that happen eh. Toby Young, he's a Jurno, did he not once write for vanity Fair? did he not once rub shoulders with that other wordsmith Christopher Hitchens?...Phillips a Jurno...!?@* no, never knew that.
I've just had a thought, Maybe that's what egalitarianism is all about and me and other posters on here are doing it here and now...we can call ourselves - albeit very loosely - Journalist. Maybe Phillips had a point.....errr no, she didn't.


cookieducker

Ecolizzy

Absolutely terrible here BYT and myself can only just tolerate it. We would move back but know we would only exacerbate the problem for you.

So we'll just stoically tough it out for your benefit. Despite what we have to endure we haven't lost our compassion or altruism for others.

2. At 7:14pm on 08 Dec 2009, Roger Thomas wrote:
#2 Brossen

This I could not make sense of especially as he was talking about him and Al Gore flying round the world to attend various climate conferences.

Who subsidises the 'global elite' to maintain their lifestyles if total global emissions are capped? Everyone else?

Wild guess.... this might be why what government says, and such as the 成人论坛 passes on, vs. what 'they' do, is a slight disconnect that 'everyone else' is tending to notice. Which is possibly why asking questions is being 'discouraged' more and more. And edit suites are on overtime.

For instance, and speaking of 'them and 'us', I might be tempted to crank any eyebrow at Mr. Mandleson saying today that, in propping up votes in a Labour heartland, 'WE put OUR money, where OUR mouths are'.

Bless.

#13 from previous page

Thank you, Streetphotobeing, for your support against the bullying jj & co, etc, who are trying to make their name by taking the mickey, and much worse, out of just about everything they can lay their sick minds on.

mim

Re: Education

Although I am still to watch last night's Newsnight on the iPlayer, from what I can see, despite obvious shortcomings of the English education system which I think compares to its disadvantage with the Polish education system on the whole, kids from relatively poor or complicated backgrounds still make it through to higher education and become responsible and successful adults for the benefit of their families and society at large.

I am not 100% sure that the Polish education system is really better but from what I can see kids are exposed to a much wider variety of knowledge, including world history and iterature, so at least they can get a taste of what's out there and what to look for should their imagination be caught by this or that idea or work, or whatever. It doesn't say, however, that all the young people in Poland leaving secondary schools are full of fantastic knowledge, etc, and that they would beat just any kid brought up in this country. It all depends really on quite a variety of aspects.

#30
By jove, RT, you've got it!

#25 EcoLizzy

Honestly, my neighbours here in this hell hole would concur entirely with the intent of putting right those seeing this grey, sodden, heathen mass of a cultural desert through Rose coloured specs.

You should all indeed thank your lucky stars for being able to live in a heaving, hot, steamy, smog ridden, thriving, bustling metropolis with a myriad of choices of places to spend your money and your time - food, drink (posted from the village with NO PUB - google 'Aberdeenshire Pub Blast' if you need to know more) cinema, galleries and theatres, shops, people, car parks (I still have memories of the BIG ONE - the M25 is it called?)

Have a Nice Day. (wink)

#30 We would move back but know we would only exacerbate the problem for you.

Hhhmmm it's like rats in a barrel down here Roger! ; )

And what happens to rats, they fight each other for space etc. : (

There's only 5.5 million of you in Scotland, and I believe around 56 million in England, with over a third, say 20 million living in the South East.

Toby Young and the 'right to choose' - Education debate

Toby Young鈥檚 main crimes/errors in caring about the education of his children is that he is

a) starting too late (or maybe too early). He and his other parent friends are too deeply and emotionally involved, so unlikely to see the rotting forest or our woefully poor education system for the urgent and critical trees of his own (4) offspring鈥檚 needs. They will see a very short span of time to make the change they want to see in one very small place. It is too personal and parochial.

The root and branch overhaul needed (that possibly goes even deeper that I currently see) would be best served by those whose children are already out of harm鈥檚 way, with a clear retrospective view and no emotions or urgency.

b) Seeing the 鈥榩hysical鈥� place of delivery (school buildings) as the key to learning utopia, They would still get the same 鈥榚xpert鈥� (I would laugh except it is not funny) teachers too deeply ingrained through the teacher training system, delivering an overcrowded largely pointless curriculum, largely to a clientele who don鈥檛 get it and won鈥檛 play by their nicely upheld rules.

(See report yesterday that in Scottish secondary schools on average every pupil missed 3 weeks of school attendance 鈥� much down to parents choice of holiday or social engagement). If that鈥檚 an average and my 2 had almost 100% attendance then the real numbers for a percentage (30% is my estimate) of the population is going to be even worse for those with no real investment in school life.

That鈥檚 out of 38 weeks of offered education. These numbers are unlikely to be an isolated case. I can also add from experience that many schools will lose at least another one to two weeks of what we call education on 鈥榟appy days 鈥� charity involvement, ill thought out and managed 鈥榯rips鈥� and other 鈥榚xperience鈥� days.

Children are pushed into 鈥榚ducative鈥� care earlier and earlier by well meaning parents who 鈥榥eed鈥� to devote their energies to much more important tasks (making money and having a life) whilst leaving the critical tasks to the 鈥榚xperts鈥�.

Let鈥檚 START back in the home, where children should be absorbing good manner, social skills, basic language and being inspired to explore the world around them and have their enquiring minds fed on demand in the bosom of the family.

And, to end on a slightly controversial point - 4 Children strikes me as a pretty selfish choice and one that has weighted the need for school places somewhat.

It would be, in my view, a change for the much better if we could find a way of encouraging parents to be parents and children to be children once more, not all just commodoties or clients.

#35

Ecolizzy
On a slightly more serious note, why should Scotland be subjected to exactly the same problem you are determined to stop England suffering, viz economic/social immigration?


Roger (Celtic)
Get all your mates together - we need a dry stone walling workshop - quickly. Invasion fleet spotted off the coast! I'll start at wallsend - you can take the Carlisle end. Meet you somewhere near Hexham!!!!!!!!!

#35 Ecolizzy

You forget we have all these useless mountains, isolated Lochs, beaches, forests and woods all taking up space.

One thing we have got is something called TV and I believe that was only because some bloke about 14 miles from here invented it.

At night I watch it with envy. Those people that look really cool and sophisticated carrying those half gallon disposable containers of coffee in their hand as they walk round or go into their offices.

I can only dream I suppose.

How I would exchange all this miserable isolation just to look that good.

LUXURY! (#30 34 35)

In NEWBURY we have a water table two foot above ground and six metres of peat below. At least one industrial estate has been lost to subsidence. Flood maps (as used by the Environment Agency) show us to be under water more-n-likely, while miasma is everywhere. The ugliness of our shopping mall frontage, is only exceeded by the brand new cinema complex.

I applied to that Alex Salmond to be an honorary Scot - he did not reply. . .

Hey BYT and Roger stop teasing me! I really, really envy you, but family commitments make me stay down south, but one day watch out Northumberland I are a'comin in your direction. (Lowest population density in England)

Oh I don't think Scotland should have our problems BYT, I think we should totally stop mass immigration, until at least after the next census. But then if you were an illegal immigrant would you fill a form out?! It's incredible here now, every time you go out there's a traffic jam, there's so many cars around here if they stop the queues go on for miles. Public transport is very expensive and few and far between, even though we do live in a crowded county, 1.6 million at the last count.

#41 Barrie

It's OK Barrie he doesn't reply to us either.

I have now watched most of last night's Newsnight skipping Paul Mason's speculative item on what might be in the pre-budget today but did watch the discussion in the studio. Not wanting to go into specific details, not being an expert in the field, I'll just say that I do side with Nigel Lawson's and Jeffrey Robinson's views on what could be done to improve the finances of this country as opposed to David Blanchflower's who seemed to be almost entirely focusing on the hatred he feels for the bankers.

As much as I think that they are far too greedy, especially these day with the ordinary folk having suffered due to the recession and having been bailed out by the taxpayers, this is probably just a drop in the ocean by comparison to waste, useless government projects and lack of rigour in the public sector. I know something about it, I worked for the NHS and have been since personally involved in some of those useless and pathetic projects with no future to speak of, including the one affecting and disrupting the 成人论坛 itself.

#41 Hhhhmm water, Kent is a very odd mix of situations Barrie. A lot is marsh land and very vunerable to rising sea levels, we also have chalk aquifers, which got extremely low in the last drought years. Goodness knows what would happen now, a few hundred thousand more houses have been built since then. Lovely lot of marsh around Ashford, that could flood, with the resulting problem of flooding in Canterbury as run off ends up in the river Stour, right through the middle of that town. We are also very short of water, average rainfall is only 24 inches a year, one of the driest counties, so if we have another drought year, we will be rationed.

I dread to think what will happen when the Thames Barrier is raised properly to defend London, where do they think the sea will go?! Mainly all over Essex and Kent as it did in 1953, and of course the new Thames Gateway building site will get several feet of water around it. And forget the garden of england, that's one big joke around here, we only grow roads and houses and entertainment complexes much as you describe!

With regard to Toby Young's ambition of opening a new school as opposed to improving the existing one, I can see both sides of the argument and as far as I am concerned the possibility of choice is normally a good thing, especially that having another comprehensive in the area might spur on healthy competition, etc.

#36 Brightyangthing

You are obviously a highly intelligent person and it looks like you are also a responsible parent, the two don't always go hand in hand. But the problem is that the kids from the estates do not have the same support that you must have been able to provide when your children were still at school. That's why it's very important for the larger communities to make sure that the schools in their area do provide high standard of education, though not necessarily strictly academic, as well as high ethical standard making sure that the teenagers leaving the education system are able to cope with the outside world and are well set up to become responsible adults whatever their choice of career or lifestyle.

I do not think this needs to or in fact can be achieved by simply imposing on them strict and artificial regimes but rather by making them creatively involved in the process of learning on how to think for themselves, instilling in them the joys of discovering new interesting areas of knowledge and behaviour, etc

#22 lizzy (re-your link) YOU AINT SEEN NOTHIN YET!



Our Northern Neighbours may well joke about keeping us Sassenachs out, but I'm planning my move soon. I know a few of us keep banging on about overcrowded England, but there's worse to come, with 'climate refugees' being the next potential wave of asylum seekers.

This extract is from a paper entitled "Adapting to Climate Change: The Role of Reproductive Health & Family Planning" on the website of www.populationaction.org It's one of many organisations expressing concern at human population trends, but I doubt that this main cause of poverty and ecological degradation (and possibly of global warming)will get any attention at Copenhagen.

"Nearly one billion people live in the world's least developed countries, the majority of which are expected to at least double their populations by 2050.

Two hundred million women world-wide have an unmet need for family planning. As caretakers of their families, women suffer the most from the effects of climate change.

Voluntary family planning, coupled with investments in girls' education and women's economic empowerment, can help improve livelihoods, protect the environment and reduce population pressure.

Yet we found that only six of the 41 NAPAs identify family planning as a potential adaptation strategy, and only two prioritized family planning programs for adaptation funding."

Why would autocratic regimes bother to spend our aid funding on (voluntary)family planning when UNHCR can arrange for population pressure to be transferred elsewhere - to places like UK?

That's why I have frequently advocated that aid-funding should be tied to responsible family planning in the countries that will never be able to support their own population growth.

ps. I've got my family tree ready to prove my Scottish ancestry, but it may require a visa soon. Perhaps it's Philippines instead.

#41 & #45

In response to your love of water, barriesingleton and ecolizzy, I hope that the mods will let through a ditty of mine from July which I think may have been accepted at the time but which, it seems to me, is still relevant though things have moved on since quite dramatically with myself feeling much more positive about my prospects for the future without 'aqua's' supposed help.

Satanic Verses
Satanic verse - tonight's subject to be
With Martha and guests on Newsnight's Review

Will 成人论坛 mice be in attendance
And what's therein their presence their pretence?

Who is it they are keen so to impress
And with which mouse to which puppet guest?

Is pizza to be served beforehand with drinks
Or cheese with holes next to the sinks?

Aqua and qua qua and qua qua and aqua
And will they discuss the issue of fatwa?

Will they condemn it or will they ignore
Preferring to give in to aqua galore?

Wake up, dear people, don't let them do that
So I might be able to raise off my hat.

Why not be yourselves, for a change at least?
It would be for me a marvellous, true feast.

#46

Choice CAN mean competition, but it can also bamboozle, offer false hope and dilute the bests system/deliverers 鈥� we end up with schools merely being 鈥榮afe, gated communities鈥� designed to allow parents to indulge their lifestyle choices rather than any system designed to equip the next generation for ANYTHING except following that same pattern. More bankers anyone?????

Largely I feel the base question needs to be asked. That is
What is 鈥榚ducation鈥� in a formal sense, for. And WHO?

I do NOT believe that 50% of our population should inspire to University/higher education. You end up with far too many inadequate chiefs in waiting and far too few people willing to undertake the basic support operations (including parenting!) unless remunerated at an inflated level.

I once had a fascinating discussion with an ex teacher/ inspector of education/invigilator and we felt that somehow (hadn鈥檛 set out what we meant by top/bottom in terms of characteristics/qualifications) one needed to identify and isolate

a) The bottom 5 鈥� 10 % of ability. They would need constant support to live but little educative input
b) The top 5 鈥� 10% of ability 鈥� who would be the natural leaders/scientists/engineers/doctors etc 鈥� providing info structure for life support 鈥� needing specialist educative input
c) The rest requiring moderate educative input including directional support to find and be happy with their own level. Largely home/family/community based learning.

And I also question the term intelligence. I do not consider myself to possess much of what is considered conventional intelligence. Certainly scant qualifications. Some knowledge; some experience; much frustration; little understanding; even less desire/ability to conform to the accepted norm. But somewhere along the line from very basic but decent stock I learned to think and to express thought 鈥� this is NOT taught in schools since 鈥榯hinking鈥� cannot be measured. BIG mistake!

鈥�.....the teenagers leaving the education system are able to cope with the outside world and are well set up to become responsible adults鈥�

This I broadly agree with. Although I might debate for a long time that a) age is immaterial b) for education read 鈥榣earning鈥�, c) ditch the word 鈥榮ystem鈥� altogether 鈥� it has very bad connotations of churning out a mass produced melee of sheeples and d) learning should NEVER end, therefore any hint of 鈥榣eaving鈥� is false.

鈥�....whatever their choice of career or lifestyle.鈥�

Oh, see there鈥檚 that dreaded word 鈥榗hoice鈥� again. If current trends are anything to go by, the vast majority just want to be 鈥榝amous鈥�. Guidance and acceptance (know your place and fill real needs) are more important.

And the wealth of 'choices' we now have - nothing is beyond the realms - may be partly responsible for growing levels of depressive illness among all - including the very young.

I think you (Mim) must be like me in sometimes starting at the end 鈥� saving the best to last.

鈥�.....making them creatively involved in the process of learning on how to think for themselves, instilling in them the joys of discovering new interesting areas of knowledge and behaviour, etc鈥�

THIS is a fairly good starting point in my ideal. BUT, the question remains, how does one begin to establish such an option 鈥� it should be in the home but as you rightly point out many homes/families do not have the ability, understanding or support to offer. BUT does that make institutionalised 鈥榯eaching鈥� from 6 months (nursery/playgroup) the better option. In every smallish community there should be and I suspect still is a wide range of good 鈥榬ole models鈥� and in community supportive living, where there is no fear of PC policing or nanny state interference, many of those currently on the fringes of 鈥榚ducation鈥� could thrive.

Off to build my mud hut.

#47 Indignantindegene

GIRL POWER. "I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR......"

I can鈥檛 question the basic theory contained herein, BUT...........

鈥�....unmet need for family planning鈥�

perhaps that should read 鈥榰nrecognised鈥� need. And the need, like in many areas of society is surely more about 鈥榓bstinence鈥� or 鈥榗utting cloth鈥�. In the interminable argument about resources, we have 鈥榬ecycling鈥� (another economic misnomer if ever there was one) rammed down our throats when that is surely the last resort. Well ahead should be reducing. The same goes for consumption of sex as a commodity, whether you live in the glare of media spotlight or a candle lit hovel on the edges of a rainforest. Restraint, constraint. Family planning has its place but only when the basic cycle of human need in reproductive terms is understood.

For all the horror and tragedy of the aids epidemic in Africa, it is wholly controllable - the women who transmit it to their unborn children who are feeding this increase 鈥� some through male domination, others through economic need. They need to be empowered with the solution, already in their hands.


鈥�.....As caretakers of their families鈥�

Procreators before caretakers. Women hold the balance of power if only they could recognise and exert it. A worldwide 鈥榩eace and reconciliation鈥� Withholding sex (websites offering reasonable alternative SATISFACTORY solutions for women could be state sponsored) might soon bring the rampant tiger to its knees. Should the revolution start in 鈥榟igh society鈥� and leadership harems鈥� or in mud huts and shanty towns?

鈥�.....investments in girls' education and women's economic empowerment,鈥�
WHY do women need to be economically empowered? In a fair and sharing communal environment, the supportive role of the matriarch was long held in the highest esteem.

#50 BYT

Pleased you refer to rampant tiger, and not lion.

the pc'ers will crucify anyone who tries to set up a school that works. they would rather everyone to be be thick because it fits their 'equality of the lowest' agenda than have some people be bright.

Even on NN there seems a scorn for education where they are called eggheads and geeks.

the uk has an anti education culture which is why state schools are little more than child minders.

the quality of staff is key which probably makes getting foreign taught teachers in as key to success rather than try to reform the uk educated teachers who have been brainwashed into accepting failure?

Brightyangthing

I may not have expressed my views clearly enough and you've picked some good points with some of which I would agree.

However insistently the educational 'system' will try and bang academic knowledge into some young heads, it's not likely to have all that much effect. Some may come out with recitation type of knowledge making them able to pass their exams but which will soon evaporate through the tops of their bodies with not much benefit to their futures lives. Those indeed shouldn't be encouraged to aim towards higher education but rather be prepared to do manual work which in itself can be very rewarding.

I do think, however, that all young people should be exposed to hobbies, which can they become passions or developed into real expressions of talent, like painting, music, poetry, acting, sports wherey whatever job they end up doing they do have something else to enjoy and hopefully share with their families or friends, or even take it up further afield.

I couldn't agree with you more that in some ways it's up to the whole society, individual conditions and circumstances permitting, to feel that there is an amazing value in being involved in supporting the young generation in becoming fullsome and appreciated individuals. This can be done by having a talk, for example, with a homeless youth to try and find out whether the reason they are there in the streets is lack a breakdown in communication with their families or a problem they'd encountered at work, a loss of a loved one or whatever else.

It is absolutely amazing how people can perk up or start feeling better about themselves by simply having another person showing them attention, concern or just by having a chat about things they are passionate about, for example.

mim

#51 Roger

Thought if I was going to be controversial I'd throw in 'topical' too!

#50 byt

Similarly, I don't question the basic theory contained in your response; but it wil remain theory and a counsel of perfection unless we stop handing out aid funding without appropriate targets or sanctions.

The aids epidemic in Africa, to which you refer was not simply unrecognised, but denied by the dictators of countries in which I was delivering UK funded schemes in '80/'90s. And 'investment in girls' education' of the right type might perhaps empower them against male domination - and religious dogma. As for abstinence, restraint and constraint, although the women of Lesbos successfully applied the first withholding tax in olden days, I fear Huxley killed that off when he described celibacy as the most extreme form of sexual deviation in 'Brave New World.' But there are no rampant tigers in Africa only lions.

#50

You are in a teasing mood here, aren't you, Brightyangthing?
You are a highly intelligent woman, I have followed you since you started and rarely have we had such intelligent, and I'm not saying 'clever', contributions on these pages as compared to yours. So why are knocking yourself down? If both partners can come to an agreement about sharing, or splitting tasks, in terms of housework and looking after children, and extra help from within the family or even by employing a nanny, then I do not see a problem about women engaging in similar jobs to those that men do, whatever they might be.

Funnily enough, the other day I saw a young woman wearing a tee shirt with 'harem' on it. There 2 possibilities to why she was wearing it. One, a man asked her to wear it for him so she could parade in front of my filming eyes or else she is a part of a harem. I somehow doubt it, however, that the second possibility is right.

It's jj's trick, isn't it? I can't help it but I carry on worrying about ecolizzy being involved in all this, for obvious reasons in particular, the kids. But for her as well. I don't know why but I am concerned for her.

mim

And to carry on from #53, Brightyangthing, the definitely non-academic types are true not only for those coming from underprivileged backgrounds but probably with equal percentage from the most privileged ones, be they privileged financially or aristocratically.

While those from the underprivileged background do have to earn their living, everything possible should be done for them to be trained for jobs they might enjoy or find fulfilling at the same time. Whereas those better placed financially can be taught wide ranging skills, including those of social responsibility, that keep them occupied with a feeling of self-worth rather than making resort to drugs, etc, due to their heads needing to fill the vaccuum created by boredom, egoism, lack of parental love and the self-esteem.

#50 & #55

Sex

One can live without and millions people do due to all kinds of circumstances. Sex is not necessarily a pre-requisite to relative fulfillment.

Some people stop having sex due to having lost a husband or a lover early on life and not feeling like having sex with anybody else.

Some people make a conscious decision for whatever reason not to engage in this activity.

And there are those who never find the right partner and are not prepared to sleep around. Now, some of those may feel they are not attractive enough or indeed never attract this type of attention from another person. Others, even though they may be very or quite attractive may not wish to have sex with anybody that they do not fancy. Full stop.

All the above types of people may otherwise lead very fulfilling lives whatever they may be up to.

I remember being very upset with a song that Yves Montand used to sing implicating that 'one's nothing without love'. I think he did mean being in a relationship with sex included.

Although sex can and does add another dimension to one's life, I think far too much emphasis is placed upon it by the contemporary society. I don't have enough historical knowledge on the subject so cannot compare it to previous epochs. I suppose views on the subject must have varied from society to society and from epoch to epoch.

mim

#50

Brightyangthing

And to round things off on this page, I'd like to add that I'm 100% with you regarding your conviction that thinking cannot be measured, nor can any other real creativity for that matter.

How would one measure, for example, even one of Shakespeare's plays? By numbers, by length and width, by weight and would the comparison be with plays by Moliere for example, or even between just 'King Lear' and 'Midsummer Night's Dream'? Methinks not by digits.

FROM INGENUE TO AMBIGUE (55)

"investment in girls 'education' of the right type might perhaps empower them against male domination"

If you cerebrally empower women (school them) but do not bring them to MATURITY and WISDOM, they will not simply 'throw off' male domination, but the Ambigues among them will come to dominate ALL - as in UK.

Shudder.

#55

'..... Huxley killed that off when he described celibacy as the most extreme form of sexual deviation'

Not totally familiar with the nuances of that work, YET! But I wasn't suggesting forever.

And I agree with #60 about the nature and value of education.

I think it is 鈥榓t our (the world鈥檚) peril that we visit the mistakes long term disastrous errors of our value systems upon those in more natural cultures.

In the great western civilisations in the relatively recent past, the nature of male/female has forcibly become largely interchangeable and therefore both weakened, to the detriment of society.

IF, and it is a HUGE IF, we were to find a way of valuing the contribution of the Mother in the long term not just as an incubator then there would be no need for women to compete in a man鈥檚 world. Men would know what was expected of them (hunter gatherer/provider), and women of all ages would have their place of honour and wisdom unimpeded by ruthless, naked ambition at the head of the family unit.

Instead, we are all tarred by the same brush and valued only for our titles and our purchasing power. Men and women are different by their very nature. Those difference works best for all concerned when allowed to complement anad celebrate rather than compete with.

There is little that makes me more sad than to see more and more of our innocents succumb to that model.