成人论坛

Heartbreaking all round - a kid killing a kid.

One would have thought that Jon Venables would have felt a remorse, and would have been taught by now to feel a remorse about little James Bulger. We do not know as yet, however, in what way he has breached the terms of his release.

I wonder whether he had ever imagined himself as a little kiddie being tortured and murdered the way he'd done it, with a 'friend', to James.

My heart also breaks each time I hear about yet another soldier having been killed in Afghanistan but the current reality is such that, in my opinion, it would be unwise to pull out of there at this stage.

Whenever anyone is killed, for whatever, reason I always think about their families and the years of sorrow they'd be faced with.

Does the mother of James Bulger have a 'right' to know what John Venables has been returned to prison for?

And if so, WHY?

As for when a child kills a child it raises the question of nature/nurture and if anyone is born evil.

What happened to the parents of James' killers? Should it be the parents of the young killers who are put on trial, jailed and perhaps their reproductive ability removed?

And what (as was asked on BQ yesterday) should prison seek to do? Punish, protect, rehabilitate.......? In what proportion and for what crimes?

It will be interesting if the people of Liverpool are able to be objective rather than overly emotive on this issue.

#157 from previous page

Indignantindegene

It's good to see you're not completely stuck in a rat rut of blinkered opinions.

The way I see freedom is embued with respect for the freedom of others, no harm ever deliberately intended as well as what I would call a kind of obligation/responsibility towards fellow human beings, with the notion of love of the whole of humanity having too many impossible, if not sentimental, undertones.

It ain't easy but it seems to me that the most sensible way to be is to try and achieve the right kind of balance between the self and the other, between the individual and universal and between the personal and public, etc.

Committing onself on a personal level to a specific person, in my view, does nothave to undermine one's commitment, once one's made one, to the rest of the world.

mim

'A British soldier has been killed in an explosion while on foot patrol in in the Sangin area of Helmand province, the 272nd member of UK forces to have died in Afghanistan since 2001. Our Diplomatic editor Mark Urban has recently returned from Sangin - the most dangerous place in the world for UK troops - and we will have his report tonight.'

If you voluntarily join the army and go to Afghanistan to shoot the Taliban, you are going to get shot at and risk being blown up - killed.

This is not news. Please 成人论坛, for your own credibility, stop making out that it is. We actually have very few dogs in this fight anyway.

#2

I hope I won't sound patronising but your take on the situation seems a very balanced and perceptive one.

mim

brightyangthing 2. 'As for when a child kills a child it raises the question of nature/nurture and if anyone is born evil.'

No, the mother has no right to know. Yes, the evidence now suggests that those with Personality Disorders who go on to behave in these ways, do have a genetic predisposition to do so, but the problem is that not everyone who is at risk of behaving in this way, expresses it in this way. Some get their kicks out of being good surgeons etc instead. See 'The Mask of Sanity' for a good classic on this, or Hare's co-authored book 'Snakes in Suits' for those in the Financial Service sector.

Humanely, it all comes down to apposite allocation. But for that, one needs a structured state, not anarchism. In fact, one wonders if others structure states encourage migration of some 'dissidents'

In the Huffpost Robert Kuttner - We're in Trouble When the Radical Is Paul Volcker
' In other words, Geithner, Summers and Bernanke can go right on creating behemoth, too-big-to-fail banks through emergency mergers backed by taxpayer money and credit from the Fed.

The wise guys on Wall Street are already saying that the tougher parts of this belated reform package haven't got a prayer. Neither Corker not Shelby is a fan of Volcker. But the larger moral of the story is that no serious change in our corrupted financial system is possible without hands-on presidential leadership. It's not enough to keep Paul Volcker in a glass case to be taken out in case of political emergencies.

If Obama is serious about financial reform, he needs to fight for it -- against corporate Democrats as well as Republicans, and against his chums on Wall Street. '

What is going on about too-big-too-fail banks?

Is there international discussion and is the UK likely to see the newly expanded banks (Barclays, Lloyds and RBS) broken up a tad?

Also if Paul mason is doing a piece soon how in bed is Obama with Wall St? I thought the Brown victory in the old Kennedy seat was due to bankers money being used to spite him as they saw his measures as too tough.

CONFUSED CULTURE

If a young man is willing to kill ABROAD for money, as directed by the state, without question, he may rise to the status of HERO - 'BEST OF BRITISH' (Prime Minister Brown). If, however, he has the misfortune to GO TO WAR WITH HIMSELF (having NO CAPACITY to question anything) and in consequence wreaks destruction WITHIN THESE SHORES, he is EVIL - the Worst of British.

The common factor here is 'British'. By the very trumpeting of our 'leaders' VIOLENCE IS WHAT WE DO BEST! Military pomp is highly visible in our ceremonials - from birth to death - we never lose a chance for a MILITARY fly-past, armed marching, or a gun-salute. Other variations of violence fill the writings of prim LAUDED ladies, and our TV and cinema screens just can't display enough of it.

But when some aberrant spawn of this benign culture MISREADS THE SIGNALS and get CREATIVE with death and destruction, HE ALONE IS TO BLAME.

100-odd years since Freud, we have quite a sophisticated understanding of human behaviour and frailty. The battery-house of modern child-rearing, produces a lot of rejects. It is a state-owned and run battery-house, and the state should look to its failings. (There is no inspection quango.) Duff chickens are fortunate, they are 'despatched' in short order. DUFF HUMANS, however, are made the scapegoats of society, they serve to aggrandise Law-minded politicians (Law is preferred as justice is too difficult) and to supply media-fodder.

Until we judge the success of this county by the contentment of its occupants (rather than how much GDP(real or virtual) we can conjure, human atrocity (both action and reaction) will continue. To effect that change, we shall need a total purge of our governing mind-set.

I look forward to the Mark Urban report and wonder whether we are seeing less foreign fighters now and whether the overall numbers are coming down even if the IED's are still taking too many casualties.

On a related note I saw the pictures of one of the Talibs cave complexes in Waziristan. Apparently it took five years to build. Do we know where their complexes are and don't have the appropriate weaponry to attack them? If we don't know where they are they must be using considerable amounts of water (so are they located near water) and can't the satellites pick up on the collection of water and movements of food and ammunition?

Oh boy, this is all way too heavy for me on a Monday Afternoon suffering from that powerless feeling bourne of exposure to needless human misery..again.

Lighten up a bit sometimes guys to remind us why we bother going on living amongst such abject philosophical ignorance fueling unecesarry greed driven incompetance.

Perhaps, for a moment of respite, NN should direct its analytical gaze toward answering the following perplexing question.

'' How can a man make an unprecedented world wide smash hit with a film about something as cringeworthy as 10ft tall blue aliens living in a tree over a hoard of precious 'un-obtanium'' then LOSE an Oscar for Best Director.''?

If to pull that off is not the definition of 'worlds best film director' what on earth is???


The superfluous...a very necesarry thing.

#4 statist

"If you voluntarily join the army and go to Afghanistan to shoot the Taliban, you are going to get shot at and risk being blown up - killed."

But you are always babbling on about giving up your soul to the state for the collective good and advocating totalitarian regimes. Then you try to promote individual values.

There is, as ever, a total conflict in what you say and you clearly have no desire to synthesize them into coherence.

Its like that old head banger jaded_jean who used to rant on about the benefits of national Socialism and the "peace lover" Hitler. That saddo used to imply how close the Stalinist's and Nazis were such good buddies - never really mentioned Stalingrad and the 22 million or so dead Russians at Nazi hands. Then there was the "haze" over the Holocaust and "science" that underpinned a racial ideology straight from Berlin in the forties.

That poster disappeared as the arguments were exposed as being totally ridiculous - "the Holocaust was made up to put people off statism".

Hey you like statism too - though I would point out that most people would differentiate between the "statism" of say Hitler and Roosevelt as the latter's implementation of the Fuhrer-state implies clearly an individual neo-monarchist disposition rather than the pursuit of collective goals.

Hitler used to use mass murder and Roosevelt did not and he also loved liberty and freedom and so on and so on.

Anyways these days even the BNP are "not Nazis" and they have seized enthusiastically on multi-cultural membership so the far right really doesn't have any "beef" behind its rhetoric these days.

If there was any science behind their retarded views they would have cited it by now.

YOU ARE PROGRAMMED TO CONTINUE JERICOA. (#10)

"remind us why we bother going on living".

Being dead is, logically, a lot easier than this. But taking ones own life, is the preserve of those suffering from a bout of reality and not open to the rest, who live in endocrine-induced illogicality.

Well - you did ask. (:o)

PS There MIGHT be a God who wants us alive, of course. But to parody Groucho: "I would never have anything to do with a God who is so petty as to require worship from somebody like me."

#2 brightyangthing

"Should it be the parents of the young killers who are put on trial, jailed and perhaps their reproductive ability removed?"

Next you will be talking eugenics and ranting on about the "Jewish hegemony" on this page! Hardly a proportionate, adequate and reasoned response so it suggests a hidden agenda.

There are those who will promote any conspiracy theory to try and unseat democracy in favour of extreme ideological views such as National Socialism.

There are those like the Baby Peter batter and child rapist who take on said views and may have been induced to evil. Ditto the various far right bombers like Lewington who have been tolerated for far too long by the courts.

Should those that promote the kind of lies about race, history and society on the internet also have their "reproductive ability removed"?

Everybody who has read about fascism knows that they would do that if the roles were reversed - even though such acts could not be justified on any valid intellectual level.

But democracy is better than that - it has a built in sanity via checks and balances on power.

RISK ASSESSMENT

#4

"....If you voluntarily join the army...."

Hard as it may sound, if you take anyone joining our armed forces at any time since 1982, regardless of the legality, validity or desirability of any of the arenas has done so voluntarily and SHOULD have been aware of the risks of finding themselves in a warzone as 'the enemy' as a result of Britians ongoing commitment to an interventionist policy. Before that NI..........

The losses are personal tragedies for families, just as are all lives cut short by accident, illness or violent intervention by others.

What was that 'joke' on NtnoN I think. 'Join the army, travel to exotic places, meet people of different cultures............. and kill them.'

No. I am not heartless, I just agree that the media are using these deaths as fodder for their cause just as much as the government are.

'Britain must remain a major player in international affairs despite likely political and budgetary constraints in coming years, Foreign Secretary David Miliband said on Monday.'



Miliband should tell the truth (perhaps like pigs should fly). We always have been a very minor player. That's clearly a function of the numbers we contribute to what is in effect a hopelessly blown out of proportion Neocon driven 'war on terror' and uninvited, if not illegal, export of 'freedom and democracy' (anarchism) at the expense of our own welfare state and security. Who are the beneficiaries? who are the instigators?

#13 Go1

Although it is against my better judgement that I respond to your broken record, I do so just to encourage you to learn to recognise rhetorical questions designed to encourage reasoned debate.

I have no answers to the questions of some extremes of human behaviour. Only questions. And more questions. And an open enquiring mind.

It should be understood that China today is (like the former USSR and Warsaw pact was) a democratic country. It is just not a liberal-democratic country. In a blog which purports to comment on the vicissitudes of the 成人论坛's flagship current affairs programme, this point must be clearly understood if anything this to be intelligently discussed.

I've asked before, and I ask/request again: why do we not see/hear more commentary on world events from the (or his staff). We see/hear a lot from representatives of the USA and Europe. How about some balance? There is, in my view, a bias through omission.

#10

Jericoa

Maybe Jeremy will lighten things up a bit by throwing in something off the cuff for the sake of the right kind of balance?

Some of us might be enjoying ice cream or a glass of wine while pondering on the human tragedies presented by Newsnight today. Or/and they may also be dreaming of the forthcoming blossoming trees, flowers pushing through the ground and warmer days.

mim

ADVERTISING STANDARDS (#14)

There is boundless black humour in selling expertly advertised arms to Johnnie Foreigner, while also selling 'a life' (not a death) in the armed forces, to our own eager young, by other advertising.

Has anyone referred the military advertising to the standards body? (I vaguely remember some challenge.) And what about Health and Safety? Do snatch Land Rovers pass the test of that wonderful H&S phrase: "So far as is reasonably practicable" when their protective capacity is inspected? Yeah right.

Just another corrupt practice to add to the long list that constitutes British Culture - all of which COULD be addressed, if integrity held sway.

14. brightyangthing The reality was captured with typical perspicacity (although like us all, he has his flaws) when he described the behaviour as 'extreme paint-balling'. Just about all who are male-brained will immediately recognise that description as true, but as you suggest, the media demographic is today very different to what it once was. These troops are indeed fodder, and many more people are now coming round to seeing exactly who owns the cannons.

It's there in the inequality statistics. Do the risk assessment.

oops in 17 ' 'if anything is...'

We only have a choice between the options made available.

A life sentence should mean just that - LIFE.
If someone takes away a life (exceptions being manslaughter/mercy killing etc), then they should stay in prison for LIFE. Just because a child has killed, that should not mean a light touch - they should still stay in prison for LIFE.

ONE FOR JADED JEAN RIP!

Iraq Inquiry: David Miliband says war has boosted Britain's reputation in Arab world


-----------------------------------------------------
The Foreign Secretary told Sir John Chilcot鈥檚 inquiry into the war that Britain鈥檚 willingness to follow through on threats of military force had made some Arab governments more willing to 鈥渄o business鈥� with the UK.

I bet he must have smirked when he let that one out!
-----------------------------------------------------

Mr Miliband also said that Britain is popular with many Iraqis, who voted in a general election on Sunday.

It鈥檚 probably because of all those really useful 鈥榚xplosives detectors鈥� that 鈥榳e鈥� sold 鈥榚m.
----------------------------------------------------

Mr Miliband said: 鈥淭he view of us is that we are seen to have played a part in freeing the country from a tyranny that is bitterly remembered.鈥�

...only to try and replace it with unfettered free-market anarchism....as you just know it鈥檚 good for business!

BYT

A lot is to be said about upbringing and that's right across the board. The ultimate responsibility does lie with the parents except perhaps for very few cases.

the media about the Venebles case is the worst sort of gutter press lynch mob. No wonder the modern NN feels at home with joining in trying to whip water into a thick cream.

Given Milliband's 'evidence' what should we do about adults that conspire to kill without international legal authority?

mob rule

19 barriesingleton 'And what about Health and Safety?'

What about it indeed you 'trouble-maker' (anarchist) you....!

.

The Health and Safety Executive Website

Our laws don't generally apply in other countries! ;-)

#10

The Oscar tendency is to award more 'serious' films.

Personally I loved 'Avatar' but serious messages were wrapped via imaginary blue creatures so on the surface the film could be taken as somewhat lightweight.

Bravo to James Cameron for making this illuminating/ed film.

mim

22. Mistress76uk 'A life sentence should mean just that - LIFE.'

It does. When they are released, they are only released on licence. They can, and they are, recalled if they breach that licence. Sometimes for very minor infractions. Think about this. Getting the risk assessments 'right' can be very difficult when the Public Sector is being knobbled (bad recruitment and retention policies) and all sorts of 'well-meaning' people, from Ramsbotham to Narey are campaigning not to have 'children' locked up. The thing is, we keep producing lots of these types and not the types who can competently supervise them on licence.

LIFE IS FOR??????

#22 M76UK

The original sentence for Venables and Thompson was a.......

.....an indefinite period of detainment with a minimum of 8 years .....

NOT LIFE.

So however valid your comment it never applied in this case.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

24. mimpromptu 'The ultimate responsibility does lie with the parents except perhaps for very few cases.'

It does indeed, because they supply the gametes....Presumably the exceptions to which you refer are the foster parents?

#31
Would also add I think a distinction should be made between aggregators in the 'alleged' fraud of Pruthi. By aggregators I mean those who got others involved and knowingly took a kickback.

They should obviously not get any compensation rights.

25. jauntycyclist 'Given Milliband's 'evidence' what should we do about adults that conspire to kill without international legal authority?'

If Israeli - nothing!

Although you could praise them if you want to 'get on'. Anyone else (i.e. excluding the aforementioned non signatory of the ICC/NPT and their special friends-whilst-convenient) are 'evil doing terrorists' who must be hunted down like dogs, or members of the 'Axis of Weasels' who must have their currencies attacked and their Public Services crippled for the greater good of Israel and her friends (or something like that as far as I can make out).

Keep an eye out for spyclists! They may be very polite. Don't let that fool you!

30. brightyangthing Effectively it is a Life Sentence. It's just a different name because of the boys' ages at the time of their conviction/sentencing.

Anyone get the idea that wherever there's a problem, somehow, allegedly have their 'black-hand' in it?

Does this remind anyone of another group?

Anti Social Behaviour Program:

1. Annoy the heck out of your neighbours by living differently, saying you're special whilst flogging them booze, debt, porn etc.
2. When neighbours get sick of the abuse and chuck you out of town, tell your new neighbours that you've been persecuted just for being different.
3. GoTo 1.

With subtle variations, this formula can be used very effectively for school/area change too, all you need is trusting, humane, authorities

BUT TWAS A FAMOUS VICTORY

Since 'The World Changed', are we not ALL permitted to seek out the Evil Doers, wherever they reside, on their Meridian of Murder, or Bearing of Brutality, and to bring annihilation, even as unto the Amalekites?

Can't go DISCRIMINATING can we!

Did we ever move the rubble from an Iraqi house, cameras rolling, and show OUR handiwork as graphically?

Where lies the greater affront, Mr Miliband, - in the Machete or the missile? Or is the fault in ourselves?

i support our troops 100% and will be watching tonight.
Yes they did join the army by choice,and new of all the risks and they STILL chose that path, i take my hat off to them, they are doing one of the bravest jobs there are and it definatley seperates the boys from the men.
I am so very proud of each and evey1 of them for fighting not just for our country but for others to.

like they say, If you dont stand behind and support our troops, feel free to stand infront of them

another day, another death, another squaddie won't be home.his family devastated. That is six dead in a week, how can we tolerate these losses, how can these miniscule minnions of men decide foreign policy and send men to their deaths a wheel out mealymoth platitudes at question time at Wednesday lunchtimes, do we really suppose if it were their own loved ones there would not be a change of policy overnight...of course there would, these men are anonymous, they have no connection with misguided politicians....would a stalwart like Michael Foot allow this carnage to continue? Would Edward Heath? Only the moral cowards we have leading us allow this failed, unproductive madness to continue...shame on them..

It is a lot more than surprising that Nn intends to devote so much time to the issue of the John Venable 鈥榗ase鈥� as the entire matter is clear cut.

Like it or otherwise Mr Venables is innocent until proven guilty. That is the law, it is the basis of the British Judicial system and that is the way it must forever remain.

Due to the almost unique circumstance of his sentencing for full joint legal responsibility for the tragic death of Jamie Bulger he is required by law to have anonymity.

That is the law.

For justice to prevail one must adhere to the rule of law.

The GBP has no right to know. Ms Fergus has no right to know. And the media certainly has no right to debate.

If Mr Venables is deemed by due process to go before the Courts it is for the system to ensure justice is done and for justice to be seen to be done.

Much more importantly ....

The Iraqi people must surely be praised for their tenacity and courage in turning out to vote?

Here .... If an election conflicts with an episode of 鈥楥orri-enders鈥� ....

We stay at home!

And .... Yes ....

Did they jump? Did they fall? Or were they pushed? Why flee from Russia? Why, then, flee from Canada?

Umbrellas, spheres and poisons anyone?

And .... Yes .... Again.

Do we really want somebody to claim asylum here when they consider the option of stabbing Immigration Officials when they - UKBA Officers - knock on the door?

38. barriesingleton 'Or is the fault in ourselves?'

I suggest the answer is yes.

I also suggest it is the case that we all do this . When these are pointed out, we often feel shame, and some go on the attack (rage). I don't think any group is free of this human foible, but I think old JadedJean may have been on to something with her/his reference to it being an inherent flaw in our thinking or language, and that recognizing this may be our only 'salvation'.

We are indeed divided creatures. We have 'double-standards', but this, it has been said, is the domain of the psychological verbs, and those who specialise in this domain may be more prone to its pitfalls then they realise?

With maybe (not to mention those in the ex USSR republics who were reluctant to see the socialist USSR go) maybe, just maybe, a few thousand troops shooting at the Taliban every day in Afghanistan isn't exactly making them popular in the region? Efforts of the Liberal-democracies to foment trouble in Western China, where a large number of Muslim Chinese live, isn't going to help matters either.

I try to watch Mark's pieces with respect, but I do wonder why he seemingly doesn't grasp this. Furthermore, with millions of Muslim people in Afghanistan (and 150 million in Pakistan, another 150 million over in Bangladesh, and still lots on India, not to mention Malaysia etc) the numbers for regime change seem somewhat stacked against those trying to spread liberal-democracy, don't you think?

Just asking. Might we not risk being subtly clobbered?

@ #39 Crater1 - Well put :o) I am sick of people blaming/protesting against the soliders, when it is the politicians who put them there. Regardless of whether anyone is for/against war, we should always back our troops.


@ #40 Stevie - I wish the troops could come home too :o(

6

There are 2 problems, firstly that the current 'view' within the mental health community is that personality disorders cannot be diagnosed in children and secondly that those with personality disorders are dealt with by the justice system as if they are human when they completely lack humanity. The first is a lie, one I have known since I was a child, of course this understanding got me labeled as 'sensitive' and when the psychopaths I went to school with committed terrible crimes it was a 'surprise to everyone' and no one took responsibility, not the teachers or parents or the judicial system, that was 30 years ago and nothing has changed. I did write an essay on this as part of 'General Studies' that we all got pushed into doing when I was doing my A levels, I got a B for it, while all the A grades went to those that towed the line promulgated in society. The second is whether those with personality disorders should be dealt with in the judicial system used for humans or whether they should be treated like rabid dogs who will harm the human members of society if they are allowed to. The failure to remove them from society leaves us with Blair's, serial killers, criminal bankers etc. While there is continued proliferation of the nonsense of racial, religious and political differences which are used to set one group in society against another the dividing line between human and psychopath/sociopath/narcissist/borderline is given scant attention. It is the reason I doubt that humanity will survive long term.

Iraq Inquiry
Milliband

He says any state that ignores the UN is a danger to world peace and enough reason to go to war?- We ignored the UN? Didn't Koffe said he was not going to 'bluewash' this war on iraq.

Funny Milliband had a mini choking [on his words?]fit.

He kept referring to bringing other states 'to heel'. which implies he thinks them dogs? Who else uses that idiom? Which middle east terrorist group in the 1940s planned to send death squads to the uk to 'beat the dog in his kennel'? Does it not imply he thinks himself the 'master' of these 'dog' states?

He denies the Uk lost control of Basra- in one way he is right. seeing the uk never had control of Basra how could they lose what they never had?

He says the Uk underestimated iraq and in the early days of winning 'the war' indulged in vainglorious boasting.

he failed to mention that iraq is still not in compliance with UN resolutions.

the artificial [kissingeresque] gravel in his voice means he sounds like a frog burping words?

39

one should not air brush out that uk forces failed in their geneva duty to keep the peace in iraq. the generals were so eager for war they didn't have the guts to say no even though their own estimates for occupation required 500k plus troops, they have a culture of indulgent bullying that costs the lives of brits at home and results in war crimes abroad.

45. turbojerry The things to look into there are that the PDs are not diagnosable in children for a good technical reason, which comes down to the fact that some kids grow out of their anti-social behaviour, socialisation being part of the developmental/maturation process. Note, I say developmental, as it's not necessarily a function of socialisation or teaching, maybe just age/growth and failure of what happens naturally for most? Some related disorders like ADHD and/or Conduct Disorder/Oppositional Defiance can be diagnosed, but the same caveats apply. It's difficult, and it's why those doing these jobs need to be good at what they do, not bleeding heart liberals.

I think you are basically right though. The problem lies in the fact that these problems do seem to run in families (are genetic), and we do seem to be producing more and more of them. If rehabilitation is a waste of time (which all the evidence says it is) society will inevitably just get worse and worse.

Still, for all we know, Venables has had a malicious allegation made against him, and as others have rightly said, he has the right to presumption of innocence and justice like anyone else.

On a more general point, we don't currently have the criminal justice culture to supervise people adequately - it's been subverted (look up Coad and Fisher on this in Hansard in the late 90s).

That's anarchism in my view, and it struck at the heart of NAPO a few decades ago. We should all be prepared to keep an eye on each other, but we have been misled into believing that socialism is oppressive and that children should not be locked up, even though crime peaks in the late teens and a 'child' is anyone 18 and under. People like Narey don't help in all of this, but they know which side their bread is buttered or else just are not very smart (see above link for reason for my equivocation).

45. turbojerry 'While there is continued proliferation of the nonsense of racial, religious and political differences which are used to set one group in society against another the dividing line between human and psychopath/sociopath/narcissist/borderline is given scant attention.'

There must be differences in frequences for these behaviours between groups, as that's just basic epidemiology. We should, I agree, begin by assuming that there are no differences between groups, but then we should look for differences. That, after all, is just basic science is it not?

The business around Jon Venables is none of the media's business, none of Newsnight's business and none of anyone's' business. The reporting my the mainstream media has been appalling over this - they are trying to encourage a lynching - which they would then disown probably as they usually do and hide behind the idea of the freedom of the press to justify their actions.

This man committed a heinous crime as a boy; why do we have such double standards regarding child crimes as opposed to adult crimes? If Jon Venables has offended again then he needs to have the same treatment as anyone else committing such an offence - not a lynching before he has even been charged.

The media - and that includes Newsnight needs to back off.

Thompson and Venables were ten years old when they killed Jamie Bulger - just two years over the age of criminal responsibility. OK, so what they did was unimaginably horrible, but at that age you don't have that sort of imagination. If I remember rightly, it was said at the time that Venables was the weaker personality. I don't wonder that he's cracked under the strain of being Jon Venables, always knowing that he will always be hated for what he did when he was a little boy.

48 just because you are told PDs are not recognizable in children does not mean it is true. When I was a child I knew there were kids who were 'different' and not in a good way, later I started reading about psychopaths and other PDs and realized that these people I identified were of that ilk, I even helped in catching one who had murdered someone, though when the charge was dropped from murder to manslaughter I gave up bothering as the 'justice' system is completely useless in dealing with this problem. It is interesting to note that the child killer Mary Bell is cited as an example of the possibility of rehabilitation, though the possibility of her re-offending and not being caught is never addressed. I have come across thirty six violent psychopaths as an adult only one of which ever went to jail, the system is completely broken no matter what you propaganda you are sold.

RIPE FOR INVASION

There is a country with corrupt government - money buys votes, power and influence. Democracy has been usurped.
It has a massive drug 'operation' run by some very devious characters who are cahoots with government. Many ordinary citizens have died from these drugs.
It has a current and growing arms industry, that uses devious subterfuge to sell to evildoer-governments around the world in the name of 'defence'.
It has systematically abused young women by driving them into higher 'education' thus denying them children, through delay and lost fertility.
It routinely abuses the old, through a culture of fragmented families, death-store homes, and primitive care, strapped for funds.

Unfortunately, it never occurs to us to invade ourselves. Perhaps because, if we DID, our defence of these islands would be violent, uncompromising and NO HOLDS BARRED. After all, do we not breed the finest fighting men in the world.

Yet again the Government's handling of difficult situations has been appalling. It's as they were engaged in some never ending hide-and-seek game.

They'll realse the info regarding Jon Venebles, then they only might... Everybody's waiting... No, they will not as it may be this and that... Complete madness, if you ask me! It's shambles all round! And the disease seems to have spread to Newsnight. Not, that Jeremy is to blame for this idiocy.

I thought the piece about Afghanistan was good, however, and the Defence Minister did speak sense about the actual strategy adotpted in the region. But then it is not Gordon who is in charge but rather NATO and the Americans.

I thought Jeremy was very good throughout the programme.

mim

Bravo to David Cameron for sorting the Tory finances out.

The man carries a head on his shoulders whereas Gordon Brown a confused, undecisive mixed bag of falsehoods. No wonder the country is in such a sorry state of affairs. Add to it the smirky Mandy and it is a complete disaster, if you ask me.

Madame Mim

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Isn't this a touching and uplifting story where a family struck by deep sorrow turns it into another's hope?

So immigration is the no 1 worry here....



Although it's only 2000 people in the poll

BYT

Now that I've been out of work for some time, I've been able to discover most interesting events happening all over London. Quite a few of them are free, others quite expensive but they surely deal with a whole variety of issues, like poetry and writing, art and creativity in general online communication - both positive and vile /as the case may be/, jurnalism and LAW & jUSTICE, to mention just a few.

I've already attended some of these and am planning to attend more. The most imminent ones all deal with different aspects of law.

mim

52. turbojerry '48 just because you are told PDs are not recognizable in children does not mean it is true.'

Perhaps you have not understood? A diagnosis is proscribed here because it is not safe. It is not safe because 'personality' like many developmental factors is not stable in the young. Children change. That's what growing up means. The fact that some children do not change in some aspects of behaviour does not vitiate this truth. I suggest you need to look into how diagnoses are made by professionals, and why. For example, if someone is diagnosed with Type I Diabetes, they have it for life, this is generally true of many psychiatric disorders. Maturation is a physical process of change, and we all need to understand this. Some people specialise in this.

46. jauntycyclist 'Which middle east terrorist group in the 1940s planned to send death squads to the uk to 'beat the dog in his kennel'?'

I wasn't aware of . Well spotted.

'THE MANIPULATION OF THE TWO THOUSAND'

Hi Lizzy! I wonder how many of the two thousand can actually think for themselves - or admit that they probably are not so-doing?

It is well known that, in polls, 'the answer' is to a greater of lesser extent, generated by 'the question'. If we round up the Two Thousand (give them a nutritious meal of loaves and fishes) and set them to work on a SOLUTION to borders/immigration/multiculture, I wonder how well they would do?

My view is that a cultural paradigm-shift will be needed, is we are not to 'go Balkan', and such shifts, historically, have been based on one man's idiosyncrasy/delusion. Super-Pope Tony is a busted flush, and Global Brown (he that is called Gordon) is going nowhere in the Messiah Stakes, as he can't 'do a Tony'. Who's next?

53. barriesingleton 'Unfortunately, it never occurs to us to invade ourselves. Perhaps because, if we DID, our defence of these islands would be violent, uncompromising and NO HOLDS BARRED.'

No, you still don't quite get it.

If we did, a) that would be in pursuit of regime change, which would be illegal and b) if it was successful, that would be contrary to the interests of those who do very nicely out of the present liberal-democratic regime anyway.

What is verboten is statism.

well done NN you have made the transition to daytime yapparrazzi lynch mob tv.

the papers write for pay and profit not for public interest. The guardian did not release the list of those journalists it says they have proof broke the law. The judge said NOW office had collective amnesia over the phone hacking.

after a report in the tabloids a paediatrician was killed because someone thought that was the same a paedophile?

@ Jaunty #46 & Statist #61 - yes, things like that happened because people wanted independence from the British Empire. From Ireland to The Middle East to India and the Far East. That was the reason people backed the Nazis, not because they belived in the ideology.

Old saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

58. ecolizzy OK, take a deep breath and think about this. Time after time we have heard politicians on Newsnight state how we effectively have an open border like the rest of the EU. If it sin't policy, then the Border Agency (note how it's an agency now?) isn't 'fit for purpose' (like so much of the rest of the Public Sector). The Conservatives are certainly not statists, that much nust be clear from Thatcher onwards. New Labour isn't either, and the Liberal-Democrats begain as Social Democrats and Liberals who found Old Labour far too statist!

So, where is the electorate to look for governance and curtailment of what to some looks like demographic warfare?

This, I suggest, is why some have turned to the BNP and why it is so vilified, i.e only because they have nowhere else to look and the anarchistic parties are worried becaus ethe anarchistic monster is running too wild. When the electorate looks, they don't like much of what they see, because there isn't much in terms of credibly deliverable policies, especially since Lisbon.

It's worth reading up on and his anti-communism, especially given jauntycyclist's reference in 46 and my link which followed (for explication). This was news to me. New Labour is a member of the Socialist International. I don't think Russia or China is. The Comintern was closed down/purged by Stalin.

Top notch Jeremy last night - particularly his debate on the Venables case, as both sides of the argument were given fairly. Also good debate with Rammel on British troops.

Excellent report (and very brave too) by Mark in Afghanistan.

Good film by Mark Urban and an unnamed cameraman about the British effort in Sanguin.

Good to see someone trying to get across the real difficulties instead
of the usual three minute piece about "us" and "them".

Would have been nice to give the cameraman a verbal credit in the studio.
After all, he too risked his life.

education

i suspect the reason why we do not know the history of stonehenge is because someone said that sort of knowledge wasn't important.

philosophy is vital to society because we have seen in iraq, in the credit crunch, that when you get philosophy wrong people die or nations crumble.

its not surprising the university people were hopeless in defending the practical use of philosophy given they do not teach it as one or even believe themselves it has any use in society.

how much for justin NOT to pop up in my local community? is there a tariff?

65. Mistress76uk 'That was the reason people backed the Nazis, not because they belived in the ideology.'

Were the Axis Powers not aligned against the Comintern (as was Stalin in fact, or was that 1939-41 pact just a convenience?). Didn't East Germany and the Warsaw Pact countries end up very much like Germany intended?

What is the term 'Nazi' short for?

I suggest it wasn't just about petty alliances in pursuit of individualistic self-interest. That's a recipe or anarchism, and none of the above were fans of that. Were they?

Did the Irgun and Stern Gang create a stable society in Palestine/Israel? Are they capable of it? Shouldn't we have expected more from such an apparently able, politically active, people? After all, they had the surpport of the greatest military power on earth did they not? Why is the failure of peace always someone else's fault?

67. Mistress76uk 'Excellent report (and very brave too) by Mark in Afghanistan.'

See 68 on credit assignment.

Still, if you stand back and do the numbers, none of it makes any sense. One soldier said how 'great' it was to be shot at all day from the cornfields..... Urban pointed out how the forces had to have eyes everywhere because the IEDs were ubiquitous and constantly being laid. The locals kept 'helpfully' pointing the IEDs out to the troops. Now if that isn't effective terrorism at work, what is?

There will have been some very bright people from Military Academies advising on this strategy, I bet. The Vietcong wore the Americans down this way. They had smart people behind them too, as well as their communities. They were socialists after all.

65. Mistress76uk Add into 37 a strategy of encouraging 'independence' and self-centredness (listen to 'The Fame' and 'The Fame Monster') amongst the neighbours whilst aggressively encouraging group action/nepotism within your own group. The outgroup will never see what hit them. It's a divide and conquer a David and Goliath/Trojan Horse settlement strategy.

Let the data/evidence drive your thinking.

61

interesting Begin's book The Revolt which is regarded as a handbook of successful terrorist thinking is not banned in the uk. if it was written by a muslim it would be? It must be 'good' terrorism?

maybe we should consider that in the turning fortunes of terrorists one day Bin Ladin will have the nobel peace prize?

Here's an example of noble, but I think, erroneous, thinking. It will no doubt win hearts and minds, but at what cost, and to whose economic benefit if communication skills are in fact largely genetic?



Lord Ramsbotham, Second Reading Children, Schools and Families Bill
House of Lords debates, 8 March 2010, 6:27 pm

People who 'honestly believe' that teaching is something which one injects into people, rather than something which shapes what is already there and driven by what one has been given in one's DNA, promise all sorts of things through provision of better environments, but which the evidence does not support. They may well mean well, but do they know enough to justify their noble words? Should they not be challenged to put up the evidence? Or should they be permitted to air their opinions even though they have no experience?

This is liberal-democracy at work.

Correction (post 48) Coad and Fraser (and whilst at it, Pease and Eysenck). This is in the news again today (Tuesday) viz supervison of sex offenders by MAPPA (with predictably annoying/provocative 'mishandling' by the male half of the 成人论坛 NEWS lunchtime duo). The truth is that staff are not available. Why? One might as well as why Probation and Social Workers are often depicted as 'intrusive' and yet also attacked for not doing their jobs? Must be something t o do with an inefficjent Public Sector. The fascist nanny state etc?

70 jauntycyclist


LOL!