成人论坛

PROOF - IF PROOF WERE NEEDED - THAT THESE ARE FEUDAL LEADERS.

If party (manifesto) policy were to be faithfully enacted, no Prima Donna leaders need prance the studios (or sit, incongruously, in some bleak, featureless arena).

It's all a game, and each medium must play its crass part - such is their resonant lack of substance. As things stand, we are never going to SPOILPARTYGAMES.

my q for cameron + brown

how is being a patron of the jnf compatible with human rights for all when if the jnf had the same polices in the uk they would be illegal?

why are we paying millionaire landowners 4 billion a year [which we have to borrow] merely for owning land?

"Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg has already submitted to a Paxman grilling, and tonight (at 8.30pm on 成人论坛 One) it is David Cameron's turn answer Jeremy's questions about what he stands for and what he would do if he became prime minister".

Am I alone in the feeling that we are all being manipulated to contemplate only voting for one of the Big 3, with 3 public-funded opportunities for the 3 party 'Leaders' to grandstand in prime viewing time, preceeded and followed by constant speculation, interviews, and analysis of how these 3 'Leaders' and their manifestos compare, thus totaly obscuring any other choice.

The other parties are not even identified in the frequent comparisons of polling strength, but merely dismissed as 'Others'.

Although I will watch the 3rd and final debate (as a poor alternative to watching documentaries, or even other soaps) I have done my analysis of manifestos, which is far more revealing than the orchestrated debates and carefully selected questions that fail to disguise the fact that there is little to choose between the Big 3, and much of the small print in their party manifestos is not likely to be examined with that format.

There was talk earlier of giving some airtime to the minor parties, but the much heraldid Equality and Positive Discrimination towards Minorities seems to have been deemed inappropriate in this aspect of democracy.

Nevertheless, since we now seem to be heading for a 'hung' parliament, even by tactical voting, we should make sure that it's composition is as close as the skewed voting system will allow, by Voting Radically, if we really want any change in the next parliament. Minor parties are not going to get power, but with 3 lumbering elephants in House, we will need some radically different MPs with loud voices to get them moving, and force real change.

On St George's Day perhaps I am allowed a modicum of patriotism by quoting Admiral Lord Nelson:England Expects Every Man to do His Duty.

The odious BNP have launched a manifesto and it nails the nonsense that some posters on here about National Socialists being left wing going on Leninists.

The headline items are ending "Muslim integration" but nothing on economics barring tarrifs on the "statist" China- there is no overt concern for "means of production" issues .

As for " Islam is incompatible with modern secular democracy" listen to the far right posters on this page and ask yourself whether they are for democracy?

On that note I don't know if Beeb rules allow it given he was arrested on a serious charge but why not interview Collett (the ex-BNP Publicity officer) to see whether they are in fact National Socialists? He seems a narcissist and proud of his love for Hitler - so why not give him some rope.

You don't have to delve into whether he did or did not threaten to kill Griffin in the alleged "palace coup".

#1 barriesingleton

"As things stand, we are never going to SPOILPARTYGAMES."

Untrue I think there will be a growing consensus on the BNP amomgst the democratic parties and they will coordinate better to drive them back into the night where they belong.

:o) Looking forward to seeing Cameron grilled (or possibly burnt :p) by Jeremy tonight......

"Our Political editor Michael Crick is in Norwich South - home of Colman's the mustard manufacturer - where Charles Clarke's seat is under from pressure from the Lib Dems, the Tories and the Greens."

Is Colmans part of Unilever?

I am going out to buy a tub or two of Marmite as Unilever wisely did not want the merest association with the BNP so maybe some mustard too.

Charles Clarke has just days left, by the sound, to launch one last leadership challenge.

Personally I would cheer the political demise of Balls and Woollas but I am indifferent to Clarke - though I hope the Lib Dems take plenty of scalps and don't go on "to fulfill the New Labour project".

On Cameron I think the Tory European re-alignment can be understood broadly but Cameron has displayed poor judgement with his new partners as even association with people who are slightly ambiguous on issues like anti-Semitism is a problem - and where there is clear homophobia that is an own goal.

It is also trite if he trys to pretend to be an ordinary bloke but has in all probability let his spin doctors loose with the right wing press to try and smear Clegg.

So two own goals in the public eye days before the polls.

Not good for the Tories and very exciting for the Lib Dems.

I think the verdict on Shoesmith was fair - but she was scapegoated nonetheless and Ed Balls has talked a lot and not done much.

On the other hand I doubt that there are any magic solutions where you can guarantee that a child is safe at home - especially when complex issues like drugs and mental health are involved.

Could some issue like paedophilia and child protection and sex crimes be conmtrolled by a national body so that there is a consistent coherent approach that can be easily monitored?

Doncaster threw up lots of problems that appear to be related to mayor-council conflicts.

Nobody wants to overturn local democarcy but maybe they don't have the expertise in any event for these sensitive and very serious problems.

"Greek prime minister George Papandreou has called for the activation of a joint eurozone-International Monetary Fund financial rescue to pull his country out of a major debt crisis."

I am surprised the expected Greek take up of these funds is not on the agenda as it impacts on the European recovery and therefore our own - particularly with our own debt mountain created by light-touch Labour.

As Stephanie Flanders says:

"There is plenty of popular discontent already about the cuts that the government has committed to make over the next few years. The worse the medicine, the more that investors will doubt the Greek population's ability to swallow it."

Then again there could be a seismic shift in the Greek political arena as they realise that they can't go on as they did before.

Its also true I assume that some hedge funds and some banks like Goldman Sachs have contributed to this crisis themselves and they still have not accepted the need for their medicine.

Ah Colemans Mustard

And what did Mr Coleman say about the success of his business.

"I make my profit from what is left on the plate"

- AIR POWER FROM THE SEA- THE CASE FOR EIGHT VANGUARD (TRIDENT) SUCCESSOR CLASS SUBMARINES -

The (Trident missile carrying) Vanguard successor class submarine programme provides a cogent example of a UK defence spending issue that- if done with ambition and a long-term strategic view- would provide the UK with hugely increased capabilities to project deterrence and prosecute conventional and irregular Warfare/counter-terrorism operations around the world...

And would have benefits for not only the UK but also its allies and trading partners world-wide...

Why build only 4 Vanguard successors?

At least 8 are needed...

And these new subs are needed to be 'full-sized', IE: 24-missile-tube vessels (similar to the US's Ohio class and Ohio successor class subs), instead of the strategically-foolish 12-missile-tube models 'decreed' by Labour last year:



If 8 Vanguard successor class subs were built, 4 could be tasked with a (Trident successor) nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) role with the other 4 fitted as conventional-warhead, Land-attack (Tomahawk) cruise missile subs (SSGN's)...

Experiences of the US have shown that 'dual tasking' of this type of submarine can be very productively facilitated:

Between 2002-2008, 4 of the US Navy's 18 Ohio class Trident nuclear ballistic missile subs (SSBN's) were refitted, converting these subs into SSGN's...

22 of each Ohio sub's 24 Trident nuclear ballistic missile tubes were each fitted to accommodate and fire 7 conventional-warhead armed Land-attack (Tomahawk) cruise missiles, instead of their previous configuration allowing for 'only' one Trident II nuclear ballistic missile to be accommodated per tube...

As a result, each refitted Ohio can be armed with up to 154 Tomahawk Land-attack cruise missiles (each one carrying a 1000 pound warhead) as compared to the barely 1/2 a dozen* maximum number of Tomahawks that current Vanguards and entering-service/undergoing construction Astute SSN's can responsibly be armed with...

(* Astutes' maximum armament is 36 weapons, IE torpedoes and or Tomahawks...

(How many commanders or strategists would want to trade off more than 20% of an individual Astute's comparatively skimpy- but very likely to be needed in a naval-conflict situation- torpedo armament capacity for useless in a naval-conflict situation Tomahawks: missiles that can not be used in naval-theatre self defence and cannot be used against sea-based targets???? )

The other 2 missile tubes on each refitted Ohio sub were converted to serve as lockout chambers for Special Forces personnel.

Each of these two missile tube chambers has been equipped to connect to an Advanced US Navy SEAL Delivery System (ASDS) or Dry Deck Shelter (DDS)....

Other spaces on each sub have been converted to berth and support 66 Special Forces personnel.

As a result of their retrofits, for over 2-years the 4 refitted Ohio's have been usefully deployed as conventional warhead Tomahawk guided cruise missile-armed/special forces' units-carrying (SSGN) subs:

1) "The (US) Navy's Premiere Counterterrorism Tool":



2) "Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress", October 02-2008:

Unlike other 成人论坛 web site blogs, the self-styled investigative Newsnight programme blog's censors regularly remove my submitted-comments' links to US Congressional Research Service military & defence programme documents...

- Or, regularly, the Newsnight blog censors refuse to post my comments entirely if they contain links to US Congressional Research Service military & defence programme documents...

... usually under the vacuous pretense that comments containing links to PDF format documents are prohibited on the Newsnight programme blogs...

So, rather than include a link with this comment to the PDF format US Congressional Research Service document:

"Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress", from October 02-2008,

instead, readers of this page can go to an HTML format page:



and then either:

A) type into this page's search box: "Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress", or

B) type the "Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress"report number- RS21007- into the search box... and then- among the search results- locate the report- and the version from October 02-2008...

3) SSGN "Tactical Trident" Subs: Special Forces and Super Strike", 28_09-2009:



8 Vanguard successors coupled with the 7 Astute attack subs (SSN's) very belatedly being built/undergoing sea trials for the Royal Navy would provide the country with force-projection capabilities that would legitimately give serious pause to known and potential state and non-state aggressors in the future and would at least partially make up for the egregious damages done to the RN's surface combatant strength and capabilities over the last 12-years...

Damages that won't in the least be rectified by the 6 Type-45 Destroyers and 2 aircraft carriers that Labour has begrudgingly committed highly inadequate funding for the construction of: these urgently needed warships are being built without basic, industry-standard weapons, sensors, communications, ship self-defence and damage control systems- apparently due to politically motivated design-interference: in order to save money...

Strategies for maintaining the UK's submarine- & other military vessel types & related technologies- innovation, design & construction capabilities several decades into the future should prominently factor into whatever decisions are made after May 06-2010 regarding the Trident renewal/Vanguard submarine successor issues...

Similarly, Trident renewal/Vanguard successor decision-making processes should be considering the UK's optimal global 'industrial, technological and military competence and capabilities' profiles and how whatever decisions are made will enormously effect these profiles...

Any country- such as the UK- with a better-part-of-2-centuries long history occupying leading positions on the world's most powerful and influential political, legal, trade, financial and military bodies needs to be seen to be structuring its military capabilities and high-tech/industrial competencies as though it intends to retain these positions...

If the UK builds- or becomes known to be intending to build- less than half the operationally-required numbers of an integral to national defence & 'world roles' class of military vessel- in this case submarines- during a 2-decade span- the UK can expect to be viewed by other countries as weak and ambitionless- possessing misguided and incompetent leadership, and not worthy of retaining its long-held positions of leadership on the world's most powerful and influential political, legal, trade, financial and military bodies...

Does the UK want to remain a valued and respected world player??


__________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada,
ceo@patientempowermentsociety.com

ARE VANGUARD (TRIDENT) SUCCESSOR CLASS SUBS LIKELY TO BE NEEDED BY THE UK AND ITS ALLIES IN THE FUTURE??

Future basis for nation-to-nation conflicts and the UK's strategic Interests in the coming century:

1) During the coming decades is it absolutely impossible that a South American country will develop nuclear weapons??

2) Do Central and South America's countries' two centuries of revolving door, very often abusive-to-human rights dictatorships, exportation of illicit narcotics and erratic- often hugely destabilizing- foreign policies bode well for countries in other parts of the world during the coming decades?

3) Is there evidence that Central and South America's countries' well established propensities for: military dictatorships; excessive involvement of their militaries in governmental and justice system structures; civil service corruption; dysfunctional legal systems; AND mal-governance generally...

will change in a positive direction- PERMANENTLY- during the coming decades?

If the answer is 'no' to any of the above, then countries with pivotal, central, constructive roles on the world stage- such as the United Kingdom- that in the coming decades wish to deter a South American country and/or defend themselves from it- will be grievously disadvantaged without robust, irrefutably capable and HIGHLY VISIBLE 'global reach' militaries...

Of the 3 main types of military services (Army, Air Force & Navy), only a properly resourced 'blue water' Navy- possessing a substantial and exceedingly capable subsurface forces' component- can provide a country with CONSTRUCTIVELY DETERRENT- global reach...

During the last 12-years, Labour's defence funding policies- and their incredibly damaging results- could not have gone unnoticed by hostile and potentially hostile state and non-state actors world-wide....

In coming years, persons and states with existing (and who develop new) animus towards the UK and its interests can only gain advantage and become emboldened if Labour's short-sighted, TREASONOUSLY INADEQUATE defence funding AND NEGLIGENT LONG TERM PLANNING practices and their hugely damaging results are not rectified...

While it is true that Argentina does not possess an up-to-date, well trained armed forces, its immediate Continental partners and friends- in relevant areas- do, and during the last 1/2 decade have regularly mused and made threatening-to-the UK statements about how- in aid of Argentina- their armed forces would demolish the UK's:

A) "Chavez vows revenge for Falklands war":


".... IN a new outburst of anti-western sabre-rattling, President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has threatened Britain with "revenge" for the Falklands war of 1982鈥�." "The belligerent Latin American leftist warned last week that his recent build-up of sophisticated Russian and Iranian weapons would be used to destroy the British fleet if it attempted to return to the South Atlantic..."

B) :

"Chavez... has reportedly ordered nine Russian diesel submarines, including the (anti-ship SS-N-27 "Sizzler" rvl) cruise missile-carrying 677E Amur-class vessel.

"...The Venezuelan pilots.. would soon be training with medium-range BrahMos missiles, a supersonic anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) jointly developed by India and Russia...

"... US officials also fear that Chavez may be seeking nuclear technology from his contacts with Iran and North Korea. "He is discussing a possible joint programme with Tehran to build an unmanned drone aircraft similar to the American Predator and has long been engaged in a regional attempt to promote military cooperation against the US..."

C) "Brazil attacks (UK) over Falklands stand-off" 24_02-2010:


D) "Brazil-China agreement signed for training China's (Navy) PLAN to operate aircraft carriers", 04_02-2010:
(in Vietnamese- requires translation service such as Yahoo or Google)


E)"Brazil concludes major procurement deal with France", 11_09-2010:
:

".... Brazil and France have signed a military cooperation agreement for the construction of four new conventional submarines for the Brazilian Navy. "... Under a National Defence Strategy, finalized at the end of 2008, Brazil aims to establish a second fleet to protect the country's north and north east regions...."

"... To equip the new fleet, the navy plans to build (with foreign companies' assistance/involvement) three nuclear submarines, fifteen conventional submarines, two aircraft carriers, four amphibious assault ships, six general-purpose Frigates, four air-defence Frigates, 20 corvettes, 12 ocean patrol cutters and 48 patrol boats..."

Once acquired by Brazil- as a result of France's arms sales- will Brazil be a reliable custodian of sensitive US/UK/NATO technologies that might be compromised and/or misused if not handled properly- especially when being incorporated into Brazilian military/naval uses??

Brazil has an up and running space programme as well as a capable and expanding nuclear technology and energy industry...

F) "China's New Missile May Create a 'No-Go Zone' for U.S. Fleet" 17_11-2009:


Will China sell this missile to South American/other countries in future decades??

G) "China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities", 19_11-2008:

Unlike other 成人论坛 web site blogs, the self-styled investigative Newsnight programme blog's censors regularly remove my submitted-comments' links to US Congressional Research Service military & defence programme documents...

- Or, regularly, the Newsnight blog censors refuse to post my comments entirely if they contain links to US Congressional Research Service military & defence programme documents...

... usually under the vacuous pretense that comments containing links to PDF format documents are prohibited on the Newsnight programme blogs...

So, rather than include a link with this comment to the PDF format US Congressional Research Service document:

"China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities", from November 19-2008 ,

instead, readers of this page can go to an HTML format page:



and then either:

A) type into this page's search box: "China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities", or

B) type the "China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities", report number- RL33153- into the search box... and then- among the search results- locate the version from November 19-2008:

Page CRS-92:
"Surface Ship (Anti-Air Warfare) AAW Upgrades...
"Are current (US) Navy plans for upgrading surface ship anti-air warfare (AAW) capabilities adequate?

"The PLA's (China's Navy's) acquisition of advanced and highly capable ASCMs such as the SS-N-27 Sizzler and the SS-N-22 Sunburn raises the question of whether current plans for modernizing (US) Navy surface ship AAW capabilities are adequate..."

China is known to be marketing clones of the SS-N-27 and other anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCM's) world-wide...

Why is a technologically up-to-date, adequately sized & properly planned Royal Navy- possessing both sub-surface and surface combatants that are 'fully equipped'* with weapons, communications and defensive systems needed??

Answer- "Falklands' war tested modernized Super Etendard in Argentine Navy's agenda", 21_02-2010:



"... The possible transfer to Argentina of a refurbished model of the French manufactured fighter-bomber Super Etendard, which had an outstanding performance during the 1982 Falkland Islands conflict, is under consideration by the French Ministry of Defence..."

CONTINUED



Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

# 9 - it is not only born children that are at risk. There was a news item earlier this week in relation to a report published on the effects of methodone taken during pregnancy on the unborn child. The sample was small and some of the women had taken other drugs so the results have to be reviewed with care; it did however suggest that 95% of the children went on to suffer from eyesight problems. The report also highlighted a recent survey which indicated 16% of preganant women had taken drugs during pregnancy and that the percentage was on an upward trend. This certainly substantiates the anecdotal evidence which I have heard from our local maternity hospital. It is a real human tragedy.

ARE VANGUARD (TRIDENT) SUCCESSOR CLASS SUBS LIKELY TO BE NEEDED BY THE UK AND ITS ALLIES IN THE FUTURE??

PART 3:

In order to save money, the UK's new Type-45 Destroyers and the planned 'big deck' aircraft carriers' are being built & commissioned into service without 80% of the basic, industry-standard weapons, defensive systems & sensors that their designers' originally intended- and that in other 1st world countries' navy's are mandatorily fitted to new Destroyers, aircraft carriers and similar surface combatants.....

Similarly, the Helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, LPD's HMS Bulwark and Albion, the RFA's four Bay class LSD's, and other RN and RFA vessels that were were built between 1998-2010 were all commissioned without missile-based anti airborne threat defence systems, vitally important inter-ship & inter-squadron communications equipment and without industry-standard sensor systems...

Not only are there far too few Type-45 Destroyers being built for the Royal Navy- (6) instead of the urgently needed (14)- these warships' anti airborne threat missile system does not work:





In the late 1990's, the RN's (then) 3 aircraft carriers had their obsolescent 'Sea Dart' missile-based anti airborne threat missile systems removed- AND NOT REPLACED- in order to save money...

Despite many technologically proficient missile-based anti airborne threat defensive systems existing 1998-2010, the RN's (now only) 2 aircraft carriers have not had their removed-in-the-late-1990's Sea Dart anti airborne threat missile systems replaced: does this say 'responsible govt policy'??

If the UK's new Destroyers, aircraft carriers (and Frigates) continue to be built as grievously stripped down, neutered facade's, and if currently in-service, front-line surface combatants'- such as the RN's 2 remaining aircraft carriers- continue to not have their obsolescent Sea Dart anti airborne threat weapons systems- which were removed to save money in the late 1990's**- replaced with up-to-date systems: doesn't this justify building of MORE, NOT LESS, AND BIGGER MORE CAPABLE subsurface combatants such as the Vanguard successor (Trident) class and Astute class subs??

** All other countries on earth with navy's possessing aircraft carriers- such as the US, Italy, France, Japan and even Brazil- make sure that their carriers are either fitted at commissioning or refitted regularly with technologically up-to-date anti airborne threat missile systems:

Brazil makes sure that its nearly 50-year old Aircraft Carrier is fitted with up-to-date, missile-based anti airborne threat defence systems:

"Refitted Sao Paulo returns to sea", 08_01-2010 :

-

..."(As a result of the refit, the Sao Paulo has) three new twin-Mistral surface-to-air missile launchers "...

For the UK Labour govt to have not funded the same for the Royal Navy's 3 aircraft carriers that were in-service in 1998; the 2 that remain in-service today AND the now-planned 2 'big-deck' aircraft carriers is overt evidence of a political party that is either pathologically incapable or unwilling to make hard choices in terms of priorizing allocations of public monies....

:

"... These (US Navy Nimitz class supercarriers) were completed with Kevlar armour over their vital areas and have improved hull protection arrangements...

"The Kevlar armour has been retrofitted to the earlier carriers, as have many of the advanced systems built into the newer ships..."















:

"... The Hyuga... will carry an Aegis-type air defense system, with the U.S.-developed AN/SPY-1 multi-function radar; her principal "weapons" armament will be 64 advanced ESSM-type (anti airborne threat) missiles... "

"... She will also be fitted with two 20-mm Phalanx (radar guided) "Gatling" guns for close-in defense against anti-ship missiles, and she will have six tubes for anti-submarine torpedoes...."

-

"... Hyuga is equipped with 16 Mk41 VLS (Vertical Launch System) cells (each cell carries and can launch 4 ESSM-type missiles- rvl) for anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles and accommodates two 20mm Phalanx (radar guided) anti-missile cannon and two triple 12.75-inch torpedo mounts for self defense...."

"MBDA'S SAAM-FR NAVAL AIR DEFENCE SYSTEM SUCCESSFULLY CARRIES OUT FIRST SALVO FIRING", 30_05-2005:


note:
(a) the above Aster-15 missile test firing was from France's Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier; AND
(b) the UK's presently in-service aircraft carriers were stripped of their obsolescent 'Sea Dart' anti airborne threat (AAW) missile systems in the late 1990's; AND
(c) the UK Labour govt refused to fund a replacement AAW system to be fitted 1998-2010; AND
(d) in order to save money, the planned aircraft carriers won't have any anti airborne threat missile systems whatsoever...

-

-

-

-







Should govt policy be to direct tax-payer funds going towards the building of aircraft carriers, Destroyers, Frigates, amphibious assault and other classes of front line surface combatants and support vessels for the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxillary that are fitted and equipped in such a manner to enable the vessels' competent performance against modern types of threats and to enable the RN and the UK to continue its/their leading, respected roles on the world stage??

... or should govt policy be to direct tax-payer funds going towards the building of aircraft carriers, Destroyers, Frigates, amphibious assault and other classes of front line surface combatants and support vessels for the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxillary that- due to govt-imposed limitations- fitted and equipped to operate as impotent, incompetent, grievously vulnerable duds, in effect- tax-payer-funded 'make-work-project' 'vote purchasing schemes'??

_________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#68 from previous page

I didn't realise, Brightyanthing, that you were so well versed in literature and Shakespeare nor did I know, until just now, having read up a bit about St George, that he ended his life by decapitation.

On my way to the ice rink and back, I have seen a few flags being waved by mild winds in beautiful sunshine today so indignantindegene is not quite alone in celebrating the day.

Have a good evening watching Shakespeare, BYT.

mim

#17
Ah Mim

I have many hidden...........Ummmmmmmmmm Shallows??????

But I have always loved literature and history too in many forms. I have been known to 'recite' all manner of things, from Shakespeare (Henry V and Macbeth are best known) to, at one time the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, to Upon Westminster Bridge to the great War poets To WB Yeats and Hardy at the drop of a hat. I come with a warning - DO NOT drop your hat!

We have just organised a memorial in Stratford upon Avon for my FiL next month - he was a patron of the RSC. We are dedicating a seat in the theatre and scattering ashes.

As for today - it is also the anniversary of the day of Shakespeare's birth AND death so I shall be raising a glass to the ENGLISH Bard also, whilst I think of a slogan to have on my World Cup T Shirt - just to annoy my neighbours.

Looks like a BBQ weekend everywhere but Aberdeen. Ah well!

Enjoy your skating.

Cameron was well and truly SLAUGHTERED tonight! Cameron failed to provide any figures, his excuses were flimsy, and frankly he failed to convince anyone.

The only moaning minnies who complain about Jeremy are the dodgy politicians :p

Jeremy is worth his weight in platinum, many times over :o)

BUT DOES PAXMAN DO IT TO BRING US TRUTH OR AS EDGY ENTERTAINMENT? (#19)

TV is now dedicated to degrading, humiliating, subverting, debasing and terrifying all and sundry. Paxman may well be able to interview with precision and effectiveness, WITHOUT THE NONSENSE, but so can others.
Paxo's unique quality IS THE NONSENSE. It clearly pleases his minders and, if Wossy is anything to go by, a lot of viewers too. Check out all the weather girls with lisps.

Just another indication that, in this election, we should be debating how to get the nation's sanity back - not bus-passes and Nukes.

#18

Not a dull moment with you then, BYT, From poetry to politics, from astute analysis of social matters to the World Cup and unafraid to annoy your neighbours. Like that!

Having just watched Jeremy interviewing David Cameron, I have made a firm decision to withdraw from active politics. By now it's only the programmes when he is on that I watch anyway.

It's probably better not to go into any details for what reasons I've come up with this decision so rather than wasting my time worrying about who's said what and why and things like that, I'm hoping to carry on enjoying my skating and spend more time with the really greats of this world, dead or alive, i.e. writers, philosophers, artists, musicians or even journalists who have made/are making palpable contribution to humanity - in this vein anyway.

Thank you BYT

mim

A CHALLENGE TO THE 'LOGIC' OF TRIDENT

Can you deter the deranged, or the extreme believer, with threat of death and destruction? I think not - any more than you can reason with a very drunk drunk. So the only people we CAN deter, as above, are the REASONABLE ONES. But with THEM, it stands to reason, you can do a deal, without the violence!

However, I am in no doubt that a nucular (dumb nuclear) system, and all its satellite subs, storage silos, etc, amounts to a bunch of target-coordinates, to be found in every enemy computer - sane or barmy.

In light of the above, how can there be TWO SIDES to the Trident argument?

#22 M76

Not sure if we were watching the same programme. If you consider that the point of such interviews is to enable the viewing public to see the leader respond under pressure to key questions and answer to previous claims, then what I saw tonight was a pretty fair and open exchange. And useful regardless of the colour of your politics. David Cameron answered all the questions as far as I could see, in his way, with clarifications and to the best of ability of any MP NOT in full receipt of the final figures.

And also understand that a party leader is NOT an expert in ANY particular discipline. They have to hope that their ministers and departments brief them with the right facts/figures as may be asked and I doubt they have as big a budget for those 'expert''s as the media do.

I'd say it was a well balanced debate with no winners or losers. Since it should not have been seen as a contest anyway, that suits me fine.

A score draw. In this household, that's Chelski 1 - Leeds 1!

#23 Mim

Since it is fairly quiet so far tonight, and you and some other posters appreciate 'literary efforts, a few weeks ago we were entreated to pen a satirical or ironic piece based on a notable existing work.

The Too Many ages of Man

If all the world鈥檚 a page
and all our lives are lived in single words
that scrawl like shooting stars through the firmament
dispersing ashes in their wake whilst barely leaving their mark.......
then read on for our story in too many parts......


Before time began, the word was yeah (or maybe nay) no matter;
pre conceptions scattered afar like seed from a pod, nestling deep in the
womb of tranquillity, scarce expecting what might be

then, at first unbidden, wrinkled pink Churchillian jowls slither forth
with scant control of any faculties; a permeable membrane; a pure
blank white sheet anticipates.......

the quill is inked and poised; the story opens told in dulcet tones
beneath weary wary dark and hooded eyes: Of surrogated motherhood,
absented father; having replacing living, singular over communal our parcel passed, processed and peeled in tuber like layer then laid exposed to the core

Now tiresome tantrums transmute organs and digits into an
all absorbing sponge. Why and how and why again, data display now
moulds and shapes the nature between work and play, no rest to be
had, scarce respite from the sculpting power of osmosis

Now dragging feet through sterile doors, years of institutional
poring embarked; porous learning surfaces subjected
to hard knocks; tender flesh hewn and compacted into
narrow gauge ill fitting shapes; open minds smothered by dogma

The revolting, grunting spotty youth now flays, baby like
again, desperately seeking liberty: drowning in information yet
secretly traversing that highway yearning security and protection;
scant knowledge to be found in endless faceless fights of fantasy
or distant dreams of princes or vampires

Great expectations loom large in yearning and learning;
vowing to love, respect, honour and obey till the next bright shiny
thing do us part. Wild oats sown in tender years, and grateful thanks
for failing of those crops now give way to ticking clocks and joy unlimited at
fruiting of our own loins, seed and sapling seeking root

Years of toil of mind or body furnish pursuits of knowledge,
of self, of limits, of snakes and ladders and ceilings false, of vocation
and rewards. Eyes bulging bigger than bloated bellies infected by
viral greed, controlled by the uncontrollable god of Mammon.

The next age rounds on us soundly in a shock that we are
not all we thought we should be. Greater yet and lesser,
our sense uncommon to the core in thrall of habits too delightful
to deny , our foolish greed takes its toll on all flesh and futures

Ah wisdom now, too late we fear, hands linked with judgement fair as
once more we flay and thrash, weep and gnash our teeth in despair: of
youth, of governance, of justice and truth. No time left to win the game,
nor less to repair. Hindsight tunnels our blinkered vision towards the
fresh and hopeful, the terminally well, to see through our tear dimmed eyes.
In desperate failing hope and sinews taut the barely living beseech restraint

Our greatest hope as vision dims and leakage springs from every orifice and pore
Is that for us, the mind goes astray before the flesh fails too far.
For those we bore and to whom we bequeath our last - misery.
For us, perchance in contentment in our dementia, peace at last may reign fair,
No love, no pride, no conscience, no integrity, no decency, no honour, no reward.......



This was my effort, and entirely topical

Apologies to those seeking serious debate. Take a chill!

Barry, talking about the weather:

鈥業 have no system, no interest except the truth, and I express it as it appears to me鈥�. 鈥� Alexander Herzen

鈥楲ife is a perpetuum mobile. Each living entity gets webbed into the eternal flux which of necessity changes ceaselessly with weather and time. Human perception of that force involving things and phenomena, as well as of itself, changes accordingly. Some truths are our own and nobody else鈥檚, others we inherit from the culture we get born into, still others we acquire and mould through our own experience. 鈥楢pparent truths鈥� have been known to 鈥榚xist鈥�, too, as figments of our fancy or imagination.

We are a curious lot.鈥� 鈥� followed by more than 30 pages of my extended essay on relativistic perception written in 1989 as far as I remember. It was originally dedicated to one of my tutors but as he never bothered to even acknowledge it, I ended up dedicating it to Jeremy with no intention of changing my mind. Whether he鈥檚 read it or not I鈥檓 not sure (I sent him a copy), but he was kind enough to acknowledge it at least.

Mistress76uk worships Paxo, Barriesingleton is not all that keen on him, I鈥檓 an obvious and self-declared fan though not a worshipper, we are not quite sure at present how Cameron and Brown feel about him, etc, etc. We could go on like this鈥︹��..

It's all getting 'Curioser and curioser'!

mim

WE SCHOOL FOR MAMMON, INSTEAD OF EDUCATING FOR LIFE (#27)

Were our culture designed such that we acquire wisdom, instead of cleverness, Mim, the great truth put into the 'mouth of Jesus' as "GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS, THAT A MAN LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS" could ensure minimal strife. Paxo commented on Cameron being privileged but with a 'glint in his eye'. Paxo did not realise he should have probed to find out what fires the glint. What event, or circumstance made Shiny-Boy Dave NEED to be 'topp'? To achieve through shaping the lives of others? The squabble that broke out at the 'Three Leaders' debate, was over working TOGETHER, should the voting be close. 'Glint Cameron' got agitated. I suggest he is unable to LAY DOWN HIS AMBITION (aka HIS LIFE) FOR HIS FRIENDS. Indeed, I doubt WE are counted that close to Dave!

I point out, repeatedly, that the forces driving a leader, are the foces that give us pointless slaughter, fiddled expenses, the eternal 'politician's answer', silly rituals and all the juvenile stuff in between. We love to vilify Hitler, but he was simply driven by his particular demons - just as Straight Guy Tony is driven by his. Tony may yet to more harm.

We have to stop putting nutters in power. But watching Liam Byrne's little cogs whirring to the Westminster Tune tonight, that is a long way off. And Paxo is no more a Saviour, than Pudsey Bear - stuffing or no stuffing.

POWERFUL (#26)

Well written and moving BYT. Excellent imagery.

#28

Wishful thinking, singie, wishful thinking

#25

It's truly uncanny, Brightyangthing, how at a certain level, our brains, or perhaps I should say minds, are in unison.

However, because of the most untoward aspects of the game that we have previously corresponded about, my resolve is unshakeable. I'm giving up on actively participating in politics until such time there is a real change. So, I shall not be making any further comments on any policies, etc, whether I am or I am not in agreement with any of them and whether it's anything to do with the British politicians or Barack Obama or anybody else.

mim

#26

Love your piece, BYT, for its subtlety, sharpness of percetion, irony and satire.

Just one point, perhaps. Far too much emphasis has been placed on the issue or winners and losers rather than living. Hope it makes sense.

Have an interesting and fulfilling weekend, Brightyanthing

mim

#32

Living real, palpable life, BYT

I thought the long awaited Jeremy-Dave confronation worked quite well as far as it went but I did have some concerns all the same.

Setting it in the Goldman Sachs executive car park did I think suggest very well just the right note of opulent vacuity while still hinting at an appropiate degree of cosy intimacy and really you honestly wouldn't have guessed that probably there was an entire TV studio of a couple of hundred or so people minimum seeing to them the other side.

But what on earth had been going on with Dave's hair just before the start for heaven's sake! For all the world it looked as if he had been in some sort of an intimate tussle or something which of course sent all the wrong messages given that we were to imagine the pair of them alone together just happened each other by chance sitting on barbecue chairs for some reason without a barbecue in a Goldman Sachs car park.

Or is it just that Dave can't afford a decent barber now that MPs aren't allowed to fiddle their expenses any more and btw I couldn't help noticing incidentally that Jeremey's suit was a considerably more expensive cut than Dave's which was just rubbing it in.

And then of course sitting them down in the first place which is just so completely last week and boring.

So room for improvement with Gordo's next week I think.

Have you considered doing it the way Tibetan monks do their debates?

Just an idea. In the first place they would be shaven headed and wearing robes so that would take care of all those grooming inequality issues nicely. Then the way it's done is that they slowly circle each other muttering koans about the undifferentiated void and so on at the same time (very important that sponataneous simultaneity) and when one of them does let off a particularly good one they shout HAH! while simultaneously clapping their hands violently together and and then shooting one hand right out palm uppermost fingers extended whatever as a gesture of the ineffable vastness of the undifferentiated void etc. while at the same time lifting a leg sumo wrestler style and stamping that down hard also and meantime taking the opportunity to evacuate a little wind if there's been any built up during the session (that last detail is actually a bit esoteric and I shouldn't really be revealing it but it would be shame not to make it as authentic as possible).

Personally I'm easy about the Goldman Sachs car park myself. Something a little more Roman gladiator wise perhaps for example the lion enclosure at the London Zoo if they still have one? That would be entertaining!

Of course it couldn't all of it just be koans but I would be wary if I was Jeremy about putting many facts and figures in it seeing it's Gordo. Why not just try to draw him out on his human side, you know handy tips on how to tell men and women apart and how his kids squabble about the budget deficit at bath time, that sort of thing? That would be so completely fantastic and utterly tomorrow.

Just trying to help (erm the David Dimleby debate which I do understand isn't Newsnight but any way at all we could get Jonathon Ross back for that forgive and forget put a bit more life in it him and Nick together would be really really fab?).

#27

Now, about that tutor, BYT. Methinks he's gone off the rails thinking he's gonna climb 'high' mountains drinking coca-cola and believing that everybody's gonna forever obey his orders and instructions while rabbiting on about the 'glories' of statism and identifying himself with every moustachio dead and alive.

Why not call his bluff? I'm ready to face the challenge. It can't get much worse than it already is though luckily otherwise I'm able to function rather well, as hopefully is appreciated on these pages, and with my ice skating exceding my own expectations. I just wonder how it would have gone had I started as a child.

mim

I wonder why DavidSexon's at #16 has been blocked. Anything to do with sex?

#28

How touching, singie, your little story about pudsey bear. I'm moved to tears and may one day end up licking his wounds. Ah! Is he by any chance preparing to go on holiday or even world travel, stopping off at the White House and on the Russian leaders' dachas?

It's possible I'm imagining things but if not for Paxo I would have given up the fight by now, either by going away or even ending my own life which I'm no longer contemplating. So he's already won whatever happens in the future. But, rather than thinking in terms of saviours and heroes, however tempting it seems at times, I prefer to keep it much more simple, normal and lifelike.

Pudsey bear can't live without Paxo anyway and he can't live without me unless he comes to his senses or faces the inevitable.

mim

on a moustachio:

ALL IN THE OPEN

I hereby apologise to Jeremy Paxman if I have things wrong, etc., but feel the need and necessity to express my views and impressions as I see them.

Sometimes another person's presence and the way they are can be of enormous and more help than 'volunteers' running around with cans of coca-cola, for example.

Monika

I鈥檓 always ready to mock my own dreams,
Parody love and all kinds of emotions,
Knowing full well not all is as it seems
Nevertheless, devotion is a devotion,
Regardless of bucks, diamonds and gold.
I鈥檇 rather be able to smile to the old,
The kiddies and all kinds of folk
Without feeling a shame of what I鈥檓 about
Selling my soul to a spineless worm/bloke.

mim

#26 Good poem BYT, I always like reading your posts, your English is so good, and well written.

THE SIGHT OF PARTY POLITICS CLAPPING OUT (#34)

I felt it was a bit 'Waiting for Godot'. Poignancy would have been enhanced if brave squaddies, in full battle gear, had been sprinkled about in 'Windmill' immobility.

But the 747 in the car park was surely: why does a media god agree to such a crass presentational prostitution of his art, and a potential Prime Minister, succumb to scrutiny in a silly setting? Who gained? Not the viewer - that's for sure!

Was it the Great God EDGY?

the campaign comes across as

cameron's tories- we hate gordon vote for me

gordon's labour- 'i'm a genius vote for me

clegg's lib dems-do you really want to vote for them?

THE 'SPINELESS WORM BLOKE' WALKS THE STREETS OF NEWBURY (#39)

Ho Monika! I am shortly to set out for Newbury's main shopping street with my 'SPINELESS BLOKE' companion - the archetypal party politician.
He can be viewed at under: 'AGENT PROVOCATEUR'.

The rosette he sports, speaks of his overriding party-allegiance, and the Jelly-Babies, of his spineless acceptance of the party whip. In short, as he fawns for votes, he is UNREPRESENTATIVE of the voter.

When did a candidate last THROW OFF his rosette and declare: THIS IS A SHAM - going on to lose his deposit with integrity?

SPOILPARTYGAMES

given the inane reasons some give for why they will vote in a particular way [appearance, trivial self interests etc] the political future looks to be the leader will be a photogenic stand up comedian whereas policy will be controlled by puppet masters in the shadows.

#43 Ah Barrie like the photo of the "Westminster Politician", so what do people say to you when they see your rosette stand with all three colours on it?

Speaking with my eco hat on;

This has only happened in the last 30 years....

an explanation here....



The most alarming thing is, we will eat this plastic. Fish etc. eat these little plastic pellets, and then we eat the fish, and get poisoned as well eventually.

Although it can be done more directly by feeding babies with the "wrong" type of plastic feeding bottle.

Oh dear and another one....



I can vouch for that one, most of the orchards and hop gardens in Kent have disappeared. My estate was a cherry orchard 30 years ago. The orchards have been replaced with rape seed and wheat crops. Along with a rich bonanza of houses and roads.

I live about 5 miles from the darkest area in Kent...



So as the population, who I might add travel all over Kent, it's not quite the pockets as described, has increased by 22%, so proving houses etc are needed and not food.

I thought I'd share something with you, BYT, and it's not completely off topic. I have a photo of my great uncle hanging on one of my walls and almost every time I look at him I burst into tears. He is the one who was shot by the Stalinists in Katyn and with Andrzej Wajda 'bringing it home', so to speak, evokes the cruelty, perfidy and cold blodedness of how it all happened. I often cry not for myself but for others.

mim

#43

And where is pudsey, singie? Hiding on top of your head under the hat?

#40

I'm glad, Ecolizzy, we are in full agreement on this.

mim

#48

It's cold blooded treatment of emotions and feelings of others, which can include film characters for example, that can send me off on long tear journeys but overall one could say that by now I'm a 'cool customer' whenever mistreated personally though I have been known to slam doors and shout when 'friends' misbehave. Sometimes there doesn't seem any other way like rational and sensible conversation.

mim

Looks like Jeremy was deeply on David Cameron's mind! (Photo evidence!)

Source:

Miliband Major: 'He told the Guardian that Mr Clegg's core argument "that we have had 65 years of failure in this country" is a myth and claimed a Labour vote was the "only way to keep progressive politics governing this country".

In the interview he also said: "Look, you've punished us enough about Iraq." '

So the economic crash due largely to excessive credit and light touch regulation was an act of genius. They have no idea about how and when to rebalance the economy.

"Punish" means he acknowledges guilt and meanwhile Tony Blair has made clear he may simply have "deployed" a different argument to invade Iraq.

Social mobility and poverty have changed little or maybe even got worse since Labour came to power. 10p?

But most importantly he does not address the deep disillusionment and the fact that public disengagement will reach epic proportions should the Lib Dems win the popular vote and get the least seats whilst Labour could come third and be the minority government.

Could Brown be so morally bankrupt that he would stay in No. 10 knowing how few have voted for him. If you start off unpopular coming into very difficult political years and you have alienated the majority of the public what then?

All Cameron has to do is accept PR.

#47 ecolizzy

Oh you are such a wit!

"
I live about 5 miles from the darkest area in Kent..."

That's up there with your not wanting to visit London due to the racial mix.

You far right people just never stop with ze humour - its like some saddo asking me if I had had my barmitzvah following my slating the ant-semititic "Jewish hegemony" rants that never have any substance!

So many of you far right posters seem to be orientated to the BNP - yet just yesterday the tubby Champagne National Socialist Griffin was saying he was not a racist.

Could he be wrong?

#47 eco
Come into the garden, horde, for the Brown backed plight he's sown.
(apologies to Byron)

You have my sympathy liz; I used to live in Longfield, Kent - then part of 'The Garden of England'. Never mind perhaps the worst is yet to come for other counties: Dave says he is going to make his big cuts in Ireland and the North of England, and Nick-the-Lib is going to send the hordes to places where they need more of them. Hope that's not Sussex.

#53 Go1 "All Cameron has to do is accept PR."

Are you a fifth columnist, or changing your spots? You recently began to recognise that immigration = overcrowding, and now you favour PR, which will allow in a few MPs from minority parties - maybe like it did for MEP elections? Too much Lib-Dem doesn't suit you; it's best when you talk tough. This isn't playing the game - we need a protagonist.

#54 That's more like it Go, but you forgot to mention Adolf and the church bells.

FLY ME TO THE MOON..........
#43

Good on you Barriesingleton. Putting yourself out there and standing up for your principles and right to free speech.

Makes one wish one was NOT 400+ miles away from Newbury. 4000+ perhaps!

Nah, would love to have such an entertaining and I'd wager informative spectacle in our neck of the woods. Hope you meet some attentive folks.

# 46 Ecolizzy

Interesting links. Thanks. I like Simon Reeve - he seems to present intelligently and from the heart without needing to be 'the big I am' all the time.

As to the pollution and waste that we seem incapable of halting or controlling, I just don't know where it will end. For every gyre we are told of, how many more cesspit's of human detritus exist around the planet (think Mount Everest for example) and even now in space - because we all want to do everything we can and to hell with the cost.

Remember that wonderful phrase from Jurassic Park. 鈥淛ust because we can, doesn鈥檛 mean we should!鈥�

The link on the Pacific Ocean Gyres brings Edward Lear to mind 鈥� and Nonsense prevails during an election perhaps more so than at other times.

鈥淭was brillig and the slithy tothes, Did gyre and gimble in the wabe; All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe. ...鈥�

Some frequent fliers have found that to their cost recently. But will it change actions? I somehow doubt it. Which was to some extent one of the main themes of the parody.

And for your kind words in #40 (and other), thank you.

I think anyone who 'writes' for whatever purpose/reason does so in the hope that it might be shared and appreciated, however amateur. We will see what my OU tutor feels about my skill level when I submit my first essay.

Whatever some critics think (sticks and stones) I think a blog such as this should and mostly does serve to open eyes and minds to different viewpoints and belief systems. My perceptions are challenged daily by what I read and force research and deep thought often beyond my previous scope. Good stuff.

#55

And I hope it's not Scotland II.

Just goes to show we can all be NIMBY's when it is our own back yard under threat

YES - COUNT YOURSELF ACCURSED YOU ARE NOT HERE, BYT (#58)

Sincere thanks for approval. I am getting an excellent response, and had the immeasurable satisfaction of a (regulation) smile from our MP, and knowing I had ruined his day. Here is a consolation offering (picking up on your words) - Scotland's very on 'Millennium Dome': a monument-folly to enshrine monumental government folly.


LAMENT
(For the Scottish Parliament)

Sticks and stones broke no one's bones
but they tried to break the bank.
This Parliament where everything's bent
shape quite divorced from its intent
all too reminiscent of London鈥檚 "tent" -
stone treasure ships - that sank.

Inside: incongruous stainless steel
unchallenged by times assault.
Outside: crazy-polling in heartbreak oak
it writhes the facade - a facetious joke
a suicide call to some maintenance bloke
offered up to the sun and sea-salt.

Did anyone check on his family tree
this Spaniard who laughs from the grave?
The oak once made ships whose hearts you could trust
and iron was honest - it smelt of sea-rust
when Spaniards hove in - no one was too fussed
now - or later - they鈥檇 taste Scotland's wave.

As the varnish degrades on the stucco sticks
it has worn off the stairs in a year.
And wherever you sit in the gallery
there鈥檚 always one spotlight to shine in your eye
hung on rods poles and perches - a Dali-esque tree.
"Change a light bulb?" - Well, let's not go there.

Those tailors who tricked the Emperor
caused the poor chap to lose some face.
But to wailing and gnashing of Scottish Feng Shui
those once mighty folk will be now led astray
as this pile "works its will", there will be disarray
rational thought will not thrive in this place!

So lets draw a veil on this sad sorry tale
look away from this Great Nation's pain;
speak no more the proud names of the engineer-hand
and architects too, whose fine works long yet stand
for a cornerless corner of this "foreign land"
Will now be forever Spain.

MINDING MY MANNERS (#45)

Sorry Ecolizzy - I just trawled back and realised: I had missed your post.

Funny you should ask - the rosette on a stick catches the children's eye, particularly, and then the parents engage. 'Yoof' were much in evidence today, especially as I walked home via the park. I have to say I find the girls more scary than the blokes - they all seem to be 'advanced' in physical years, but 'out to celery' when conversing. Maybe the ones I met were under 10. We might need a change in the coupling laws . . .

I met my old mucker Sandra, from creative writing class year 02-03. That was worth the whole effort. We sat at the back and taunted the 'tutor'.

Only 3,600 votes between Con and L/D here. I can actually make a difference! In a perverse way, the incumbent has more Westminster tish clinging to him, right now, than the contender - ousted last time!

SPOILPARTYGAMES