³ÉÈËÂÛ̳

I suppose this is where people like me stray towards hypocrisy.

Nobody wants to see an Alistair Campbell type who so controls a governments message that some refer to him as "the second most powerful man in the land" and we move towards sofa politics.

Equally though this was a gaff that could have been avoided and ironically, though Gove is a good communicator, he does have a track record of gaffs.

But then if he has taken full responsibility for his mistakes and will take the flak directly overall that is a very good sign that integrity is important to the government and they are more transparent.

Labour have never really taken responsibility for their failure to regulate the banks properly for instance.

It is early days for the government still and so I am not too concerned but "could do better" as the schools would say.

"And is the wider government narrative of daily cuts announcements causing consternation among Tories as well as Lib Dems?"

The cuts would probably cause consternation to Margaret Thatcher because they are HUGE.

But I personally don't think there will be a permanent shift in voting patterns over this because the cuts are needed.

For instance if the numbers of Lib Dems that Labour say are joining their ranks daily are true then they would probably be able to negotiate a hostile takeover over the party. Its bunk and may even be the death rattle of the Labour Party who know that the status quo may be permanently disrupted and the Lib Dems would not trust them as far as they could throw them at this time.

It is also true that you may believe in big or little government but privately most would agree that the civil service is not as efficient as it could be and a lot of money gets wasted as procurement has shown and IT projects also over the years.

So the very dark clouds that do mean destruction of living standards for some and sadly some will never really get their feet back on solid ground for some time.

But is this the doing of the coalition or the effect of Labour contributing with policy, lax regulation, encouraging speech and so on to the financial ethos that unleashed this last economic tsunami and also perhaps the next sovereign debt crisis.

Get that financial reform moving people.

The coalition should not be complacent as if the tales of the investment banks throwing their derivatives into the food markets did cause the starvation we saw some time back and they overheat the emerging economies through reckless and complicated lending there may be yet more disaster ahead.

"The Cold War is long over, so why are the US and Russians still engaged in mutual low-level spying?"

If Anna Chapman was in the UK for several years and even married a public school boy then was she after technology and state secrets or the chance to influence policy and to insinuate agents or assets into the government and ideally the security apparatus?

People have always spied on each other but perhaps this spat shows not that the cold war could come back but that it is gone. Russia did not want this and the US are probably just showing they are not stupid and maybe the Russian espionage budget needs to be trimmed back a tad.Is this just "normalization"?

I am no expert but aren't these people SVR counter-intelligence abroad whereas the "heavy mob" for us are the GRU - who may or may not be behind a lot of the extra-judicial killings in the Russian sphere of influence and possibly the killings of journalists? I assume that it is they that would be after technology and so on.

"John Prescott has taken up his seat in the House of Lords, becoming Baron Prescott of Kingston-Upon-Hull"

He didn't want to do it, they made him do it, he didn't want to do it ...

So Two Jags Prescott, champion of the environment and banks and working people, has become a Baron and will expand the game of croquet amongst the poor and jobless of Humberside blighted by over a decade of Labour rule.

Surely this must encourage the coalition to make him and other Lords and Barons redundant as soon as possible.

I do so hope that the House of Lords reform won't take a long time.

"Andy Burnham, a contender for the leadership of the Labour Party, has accused supporters of a rival camp of conducting "malicious briefing" in the hope of getting him to throw in the towel."

Labour Party elites engaging in smear tactics?!!!!

Has he been asleep all of his political life or does he not sense that those political daggers are always at the ready in Labour and that they are always spinning and selling a narrative?

But the key thing is it is not over policy, as they don't have any, its just he is simply the weakest candidate and others need to inherit his votes.

I'm in limbo, next to purgatory (hello Lizzy).
Is questioning the man made global warming orthodoxy off limits at the beeb eh? Well the folks at the beeb brought into it hook, line and sinker, I suppose I'm not that surprised really that my post has been shoved back to the pile for 'further consideration'

The Beebs news flagship programme gets on average one and a half million viewers each night and its feedback page gets about 25-50 posts each day. There are many websites -and without TV coverage - that gets many more comments, a more lively forum of posters. A place to impart information, air opinions, debate and a place to learn as well, with the only moderation being against foul language. The Aunty beeb knows best routine is akin to the arrogance of the retailer Marks and Spencers some years back; when they always thought that the brand name would always guarantee a constant flow of customers. Well we all know what happened to M&S, it nearly folded because it kept its eyes off the competition and found itself outflanked and had to rethink its place in the retail world.
The multi media world that we now inhabit is going to out flank the beeb and will, I believe endanger its existence. Out of habit and the annual purchase of the TV license gives us a reason to still give it our attention but the viewing numbers are already on the decline - the viewers share within the market are already dipping and our attention is now more spread across other forms of media. Watching the 10 o'clock evening news is an embarrassment these days when you consider whats on offer from around the world today. An American friend of mine who spent a week here recently commented on the childlike reporting of the news and the manner its delivered by the presenters. I had to agree. If the Beeb continue to operate -and from its unsustainable high ground of morals from a past era - and from within its bubble, its gonna burst eventually because the youth of today ain't gonna be buying no license in ten yrs time when there are better options to be had. At present the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ still makes good drama, sports and documentaries and has spread itself where it can in the multimedia arena but it is found wanting in areas that are an indication of trouble ahead. The ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ no doubt has forecasted its future to a certain degree and have strategized with plans etc but when Newnight, the beebs flagship programme can only pull 25-50 comments on its feedback pages...and when you consider that most are from the regular; the lonely hearts, the not very well and the obsessives posters, well thats more than an indication of something is just not quite right. I would like to say more but I've got to check that i've turned the gas off and i need to wash and scrub my hands ...yet again.

Note to the moderator: If this gets pulled like the previous one about climate change/Al Gore then I'll know that the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ is a Marxist corporation and i'll have to wave bye bye to this feedback page; never to return...something which my mate gango will be pleased about as he can then go about his plan of tyranny and world domination. Ask yourself moddy, do you want that as your future.

So what can I say today to encourage those that have dallied with far right politics to give it up and look for another political outlet that is based on reality and science and law and logic.

I suppose I answer my own question as its clear that after many decades the far right have no science that backs up their racial notions and hence the law is against them - as the BNP are currently finding being injuncted from taking on new members by the EHRC who have not found any kind of defence from the said BNP.

There is also no kind of evidence to suggest that there was or is any kind of Jewish "hegemony" - there are just emotive assertions that rapidly become abuse when they are challenged.

Perhaps the cult like gathering of like minds is a positive factor for those inclined psychologically to such views - but then as the BNP have found Collett their then publicity officer got publicity after threatening to kill his party leader Griffin.

Not much friendship there as they disputed policy and expense allocations.

So the champagne National Socialist Griffin will lord it up with his expenses and will give up the leadership in a few years time.

I doubt that he assumes he will be reelected to the European Parliament and therefore he is probably really making the most of those expenses and that must please the party activists who are hard up.

Meanwhile what is the BNP?

They say they are "not a Nazi Party" and "nationalist" is a bit vague really.

So their ideal new leader won't have a conviction for inciting racial hatred or anything similar and ideally won't go around threatening to kill other party members and they "won't be a Nazi".

So the members will really be able to get behind their new leader.

Existing members.

gove will do his normal 'create extremely long and complicated sentences that jump from point to unrelated point whilst he attempts to look sincere, and bore you enough that you lose track of what he is saying, at which point he looks smug and pretends he has 'won' a point or two in the monologue-discussion' tactic.

most of the time gove seems still stuck back in his school-debating-team. He doesn't seem to want, or even be able, to understand the pain these 'points' he is 'winning' will inflict upon millions of English and Welsh pupils and parents. Presumably HIS children go, or are to go, private/public?

this would be a better education system if Ministers were barred from private schools, and the education minister was FORCED to send his children to the WORST performing school in the UK. It might be argued that this was "unfair" to the children - my only reply to that is, - so how come its not unfair to the children who already go there?

these people are responsible for the education of our children, for the investment that goes into a better future for them, and i have to say, i don't really feel like they are putting their heart into it. Perhaps seeing the kind of schools, and school buildings, that often the poorest have to go to, and the terrible under-funding that goes into such schools (certainly compared to Eton's £38,000 per-pupil spending!!), might awaken some sense of social responsibility?

and if not, then their own children's education should be as blighted as they are willing to consign other people's children to.

#6 Hi Kev, it's nice 'ere init, not too hot and not too cold ; )

Another problem at the Beeb....

They even recycle old news on the front news webpage, most share, really!!!...







How can these things pop up without the beeb promoting them in some way, I find it very strange.

Yes the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ is looking very lack lustre lately, it must be all that money they get, and don't have to worry about the money drying up! ; )

:D Oh Kevsey @ #6 - your comment "and when you consider that most are from the regular; the lonely hearts, the not very well and the obsessives posters, well thats more than an indication of something is just not quite right," made me laugh! Maybe - just maybe - perhaps these ARE the demographics of the people watching Newsnight :p

if 'their' spys are cleverer than 'our' spies I think we should keep their spys and let our spies have a holiday or play at being spies over there and we will show them the Premiere League and the Queen and Wogan and they might want to stay anyway...job done...

#10 - well, it IS politics, and with the state of politics in the UK today, who else WOULD be interested except the obsessives, lonely hearts and not-very-well's?? :o


-can i borrow that soap? ;)

It is fantastic that Section 44 is dead as it is probably responsible for turning more people against their own government including those with security clearances that could compromise the defence of the realm than anything else, I just hope the damage already done to our country does not turn out to be fatal.

Anybody want to sign this?

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Note to mods, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to put this up or not, but as a womans life might depend on it I thought it very important

#12

you mean like yourself, mousey?

There are also those, however, who care for real|||| Whether doing it or thinking about and trying to help****

alas, i can't see you ever belonging to those who care. you're too selfsh and too much into your own ego, meanny..

Brightyangthing

There still seems to exist a big gap between English males and females whereby the males do seem not to appreciate fully women for their thinking and their need to be recognised as fully fledged human beings rather than simple adorators of men folk, providers of pleasure and care.

How are you, anyway?

mim

# 6,10 and 12

Perhaps the main problem facing this newsnight blog is the fact that the gangophone is in there first with five posts of Spam including frequently repeated BNP references. Its enough to switch off any viewers immediately, perhaps its only allowed because it reflects ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ ideology whereas most posters take an open view. Then there is spampromptu being paranoid if anyone dares to infer towards her, like last week when I posted a link to the Polish presidential election results.

Then it may have become obvious to many posters that the presenters never even bother to read them, many regulars have packed in since last year. The trouble is that many potential replacements are blogdogged on their first go for the catch all house rules etc, whilst dAllan can get away with completely incomprehensible dross.

#17

paranoia, brush??

i just asked the question 'what of it and what you were trying to infere by your link?

most people interested in news would have learned of the fact by then.

Like D Cameron, brushy, he seems to have Royal links. Maybe not as straightforward in the sense of being a direct descendant of a previous King, like William IV, but nevertheless....

#18 addendum

who knows? i might be a descendant of some European queen or king if I searched thoroughly enough.... Not that I would change my attitude to anything or anybody as I feel just fine the way I'm moving around. Shame only for the creeps 'acting' against my wishes.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that the presenters, and not only, are quite aware of what's being said on these pages.

mim

Post 6 I Agree, A lot of other outlets I can swear like A Trooper (under A different handle only lasted one post in the guardian,I got the Boot/rattled A cage). I am all of what you mention and worse.

post one 7 Dross, I thought it was far worse than that, I refer 2 post 6 above

WindUp Merchant..Fisherman...allways Able 2 catch some Old Trout
My Cup/Net OverFLOWeth

Can an Ameeba become A baron

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Just saw Madeline's report - yes the museums are having a "How Clean is Your House" style clearance. Looking at the state of some of the "stored" items in the warehouse, I'm surprised a lot of it wasn't thrown out/ sold years ago. What's wrong with selling off unwanted items to raise funds? You never know, you may pick up a bargin on e-bay :p

I hope the parrot's prediction for the World cup comes true :o)

#6 kevseywevsey

"Note to the moderator: If this gets pulled like the previous one about climate change/Al Gore then I'll know that the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ is a Marxist corporation and i'll have to wave bye bye to this feedback page; never to return...something which my mate gango will be pleased about as he can then go about his plan of tyranny and world domination."

How does your post getting pulled make it a Marxist corporation? If I go over the top with one of these far right windbags we get on here sometimes does that mean they are fascists?

"-and from its unsustainable high ground of morals from a past era"

What sustains morals and who says they are relative to a certain time?

Also I think you may over rate the impact of these posts on here as mine are about democracy and and against tyranny and I would doubt that I will get to dominate much of the world when I suggest cooperation and cohesion are the order of the day.

Anyways I know you "nationalist" types take it all very seriously but if you felt that you needed to give the page a miss then perhaps there will be others to regale us with stories of rubber bullets flying in Belfast and of "the Griff".

What a joy.

Would I miss posters declaring war on me? Probably not in all honesty.

Do I miss those other posters who liked to "explicate" National Socialism and wanted to take the dear readers "on a journey" where they would learn the Holocaust was "made up to put people off statism" and so on.

Nope.

By the way as mentioned before - we aren't mates.

On the spy swaps Litvinenko was mentioned but does the US actually think he was murdered by the Russians?

Perhaps it is the case that they consider that it is more of an open case where he could well have accidentally killed himself as he wanted to smuggle polonium to Scaramella in Italy - who was investigating KGB nuclear material smuggling but was later jailed for fraud - I believe.

Lugavoi contaminated his wife in Germany and that would have been an odd act if it was part of a deliberate plan.

Also the comments made against the Obama "reset" stance weren't balanced by other opinion or facts that the Start treaty makes the world safer whilst we still have more than adequate protection.

Does anybody really think Russia will launch a sudden strike and seize Europe?

Did Georgia shell civilians first or not?

That said Western business people still get harassed, their Russian lawyers die in prison, journalists get shot regularly and human rights are abused.

Being cautious is sensible and steady progressive steps towards greater harmony is obviously a worthy goal if it is achievable.

#6 kevseywevsey

"when Newnight, the beebs flagship programme can only pull 25-50 comments on its feedback pages...and when you consider that most are from the regular; the lonely hearts, the not very well and the obsessives posters, well thats more than an indication of something is just not quite right."

Funny thing is when jaded_jean used to rant on about the merits of National Socialism you used to be quite fawning.

What was the line jaded_jean used once "the country is not ready for me".

I guess World War II was a bit of an indicator of that fact as well.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Ladies and gentlemen...the kevsey and gango show!

Gango, you wrote this:

"By the way as mentioned before - we aren't mates"

I don't know what to say. I'm very upset by this.
I've sat here for some 20 minutes, stunned! shocked! flabbergasted!
Drinking Jacks and smokin Marlboros, one after another, and I'm listening to these two songs over and over again.

Tony Bennet: I left my heart in San Francisco.



Pink Floyd: Don't leave me now.



Gango, have you been to San Francisco? it's lovely this time of the year.

Okey, only messin. I don't drink, quit the cigs yrs ago, although i had taken heroric amounts of the former many moons ago. And i'm not listening to tunes.
Gango. that bit about the '³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ are corporate Marxist'.. you knew I was only joking right..I mean er, you didn't take me serious on that did you?!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

PART 5:

³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio buisiness and other catagories of Podcasts: why don't '³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News' TV newsreaders and programme hosts refer to them??

Re ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio Podcasts and their incredibly short-sighted and counterproductive lack of promotion during the last several years:

Why don't ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ managers/other appropriate persons direct ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News TV's newsreaders and its (business and other topic) programme hosts to mention ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio Podcasts regularly??

For example, what could the downside of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World Newsputting a plug in for ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio Podcasts that focus on business issues such as:

- 'Business Daily': /worldservice/business/2009/03/000000_business_daily.shtml or

- 'World Business News' or

- 'The Bottom Line' or

- 'Peter Day's World of Business' and 'Business Weekly'

... would sync well with ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News''World Business Report', 'Asia Business Report', 'Middle East Business Report', 'Russia Business Report' and other business focused TV programmes with a tag line like:

"if you miss an edition of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News's 'World Business Report' ('Asia Business Report', etc), or perhaps need to catch up on the day's business news, but haven't the time to sit down in front of a TV- why not try downloading one of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio's business-topic Podcasts and listening to this on your morning run or on the exercise bike? ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio Business and other Podcasts can be found at: /podcasts/ ..."

or:

"... need to catch up on the week's most important business news?? Try downloading one of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio's Podcasts like 'Business Weekly' and listening on your weekend bike-ride, at the beach or watching your children's football matches..."

Why could the same approach/promotional-angle not be used for ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio news-topic Podcasts like 'Global News', and 'NewsPod' by having these Podcasts mentioned/referred to during or at the end of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News TVs hourly news bulletins??

Similarly, why could the same approach/promotional-angle not be used for ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ Radio science/technology/environment-topic Podcasts like: 'One Planet', 'Science in Action', 'Discovery' and 'Digital Planet' and have these Podcasts mentioned/ referred to during and at the end of ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ World News TVs 'Click', 'Earth Report', 'Ethical Man', 'One Planet' and similar programmes??


_________________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

It's always nice to have one's preconceptions confirmed. The list of schools for which planned rebuilds were to be scrapped reportedly included:
- a school where the project had been completed, and recently opened by David Cameron.
- a school which had burned to the ground.
Is the axeman wearing a blindfold?

17. At 8:22pm on 08 Jul 2010, brossen99
many potential replacements are blogdogged on their first go for the catch all house rules etc,

Especially the purgatory limbo of being 'referred', at least until things blow over.

But, FWIW, it can be worth persevering. Sometimes alternative, or more senior and cooler heads can prevail (if often in the reverse, with a cleared post get janked). Just had one re-instated over chez Ms. Watts' blog, if with a private slap on the wrist for not following procedure (if one that could easily have been in the file 'Beware of the Leopard').

One has to presume the ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ does seek a genuine dialogue. Otherwise why set up such a system?

Though it does appear effective ways can and might be actively being sought to spoil that.

I'm still in purgatory I see, it was to ask if people wanted to sign a petition in the hope of saving this womans life, I didn't know if it was allowed or not, obviously not.



But I'm very pleased to see it looks as though she won't get stoned to death now, I hope it's true!

How strange is this, five year old news on the "most shared" ³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ news webpage, how does it get there, who is looking these things up, I don't believe the general public.



And what a stupid article to put on the C³ÉÈËÂÛ̳ site! If it's true. How many children that live in flats are now scared to sit on the loo, they must have visions of snakes popping up and biting them, who was the smart alec who thought it was good for kids.

It's not a larf for a lot of children, it would terrify them.

QT last night Forsyth won it. dopey doglarse alexander with the same old nulabour tripe, he went 2 Afghanistan, yes your such a zero/hero, should have stayed there except the Boys and Girls wouldnt have you

LieAbility

33. At 09:27am on 09 Jul 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

I'm still in purgatory I see, it was to ask if people wanted to sign a petition in the hope of saving this womans life, I didn't know if it was allowed or not, obviously not.



But I'm very pleased to see it looks as though she won't get stoned to death now, I hope it's true!

---------------------------

I heard on Radio 4 this morning that she will probably be hanged instead!

#33

It's good to see you sticking out for other women, Ecolizzy.

#34

What an appalinng story, Ecolizzy. There are so many unworthy people 'attached' to the media these days. Isn't it time to mop them out?

mim

#33: lizzy, there is huge opposition to death by stoning - the Iranian people are actually quite largely liberal, but just like our own Govt, the Govt is reactionary, and unconcerned with human rights (although at least ours is forced to be circumspect and lie about practices of torture and extra-judicial executions.)

i can imagine many in the Iranian Green Movement are opposed to such barbarity.



(OT = Old Testament, JCM = Judeo-Christian-Muslim)


this woman's husband was murdered, and THIS happens to HER?!? We may get many things wrong in our own legal system, but i think we can all be relieved that the UK does NOT base its values upon "Christian" values, no matter how many times it is repeated. We have outgrown such ancient barbarity and idiocy.

on QT last night - how on earth did the Beeb manage to select an audience where NO-ONE had seen the NewsNight report that showed Al Megrahi could not have been guilty of the airline bombing, and that the entire conviction was based upon a highly questionable report from a highly questionable american political officer in charge of the bombing technical evidence (which appeared planted anyway! :o)

if i remember right, during the NN interview he said "I looked at the item, and it looked to me like a detonator part", and then, almost straight afterwards, admitted that he had NO technical training in that area! The actual experts NN interviewed completely junked the whole argument. That NN could find out such evidence in one report, whilst the US controlled 'trial' did not, shows just how skewed, biassed, and pre-planned the entire farce of a trial it was.

even at the time, many of the Scottish relatives did not believe in the conviction, and some have been of such strong feelings about it they have come on the media to say so publicly.

and the SNP MP was entirely wrong - Al Megrahi *was* forced to drop his appeals in order to accept the compassionate release.


--but who *really* believes that another Senate investigation would actually be neutral, and look at the evidence instead of coming to the pre-chosen conclusion yet again? *I* wouldn't be holding my breath on that!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

the peace activists who broke into the arms manufacturer EDO MBM factory and damaged the parts that were used upon Palestinian civilians in Gaza (and Lebanon, and the West Bank...), in clear violation of International Law, making the company accessories to war crimes, were all completely cleared by the Jury trial last week - marking a historic victory for those who think the UK should NOT be complicit with war crimes. This is a fantastic decision for common sense, and also that simple decency we British used to be famous for.



with the judge openly stating that Israel has been committing human rights abuses and war crimes (backing up the independent report by the extremely respected UN body that looked into the assault on Gaza), we now have to ask the question - WHY are so many British MPs apparently working for Israel, and *WHY* is it that to get action preventing arms sales to this Regime we Brits have to rely upon extra-judicial direct action by the general Public?

it is to our great credit however that this Judge took this decision, and that a jury of 12 normal citizens UNANIMOUSLY found that citizen direct action against complicity in War Crimes entirely acceptable - and worthy of respect.

this is on comparison to the EDO MDM company itself, that took extraordinary measures to prevent the truth coming out in this trial, - but perhaps they take their lead from the behaviour of the UK Govt itself, bearing in mind torture, WMD claims, and Iraq invasions.

thankfully, for centuries we British have not looked up to our Govt for enlightened behaviour, but instead looked into our own consciences for guidance. That is what these peace activists did, and they found they were moved to take action that the UK Govt would not - knowing there was a very real possibility of being imprisoned for such core decency, perhaps for years.

it is people like this who make this country a respected nation, and i salute them.

The Queen and Prince Philip - Great Grandparents for the first time!*

Congratulations, Ma'am and Prince Philip

mim

36. At 09:46am on 09 Jul 2010, DebtJuggler wrote:
33. At 09:27am on 09 Jul 2010, ecolizzy wrote:

I heard on Radio 4 this morning that she will probably be hanged instead!

By my reading of the mindset of our current politico-media 'elite' that would be just fine. It's not the result, but how it's done that matters now.

If she could just snog another woman I'm assuming Hague & Thompson would have Jeremy Bowen embedded with a SAS extraction team to save her, before nuking Tehran. Or would that be praising the top guys now? Hard to tell with the FO & Aunty.

#43: personally, i'd be very happy for the UK to offer asylum for all Iranian 'loose women'.

i suppose that could be called 'Enlightened Self Interest'??


hope she gets freed, but it seems highly unlikely given the amount of Western pressure being put on Tehran. Despite the aid the West gave Ahmadinadjad during the failed 'Green Movement' uprising, he still has to demonstrate to his fanatical followers that he is "anti-West", or else he will lose home support.

although yes, adultery is NOT the nicest thing around, having draconian, hideously patriarchal rules with the death penalty attached hardly seems like the most moderate, Human approach to the problem. Of course, generally the term "fanatic" means that Humaness got left behind in their 'development'.

i am once again forced to wonder how Iran would have develped if the CIA had not caused a bloody coup, and installed the megalomaniac dictator Shah in power. And THEN brought back the ayatollah komeini when it became clear that the Shah was going to fall.

Iran was once one of the most liberal countries in the ME. That annoyed the yanks, apparently.