成人论坛

"Is the tail wagging the dog? Tonight we assess the claim that the Liberal Democrats are exercising too much control over the government on a whole range of issues."

Now THAT is a one sided question. Of course, none of this would be an issue if MPs voted according to their consciences and election promises, but the Parliamentary system relies on coercing/bribing* MPs to vote for what they don't believe in.

*with high office, or the promise thereof.

If you ever wondered why your car insurance keeps on going up. well you can blame -in part at least - to people such as what you see in the following link:



There is a common theme to these kinda crimes but rarely highlighted in the media.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It would appear that the Lib-Dems are the prime catalyst for the continuation of the " Corporate Nazi " agenda and ideology being driven by " New Labour ", and particularly the eco-fascist aspects of energy policy and the 2008 Climate Change Act.

'Tonight we assess the claim'

Always good to get a 'claim' that needs some unique 'assessing'.

5. At 17:05 8th Sep 2011, brossen99

Especially when there are things that the 'assessors' tend to like.

As one wag (it's like a critic, but less aggressive) has been heard to say, 'impartiality is in our genes'. How we (another branch of 'we', admittedly) laughed at that one.

Where do "entrapment tactics" end, and "false flag" operations begin?

WHAT'S A BIT MORE ENTRAPMENT WHEN YOU HAVE ENTRAPPED AND CRUSHED THOUSANDS?

Really NewsyNighty - your attempt to continue the illusion that you have NO INKLING of the American State Lie that is 9/11 AND ITS DERIVATIVES, is making you look silly.

IS SILLY THE NEW EDGY?

I suspect that the real crime both the NYPD and FBI needed to investigate in relation to 9/11 is the real possibility that both towers were brought down by a controlled demolition. In no way am I going to dispute the fact that both towers were hit by aircraft, but it is likely that the cost of repairing the resulting damage would have easily exceeded the total worth of the buildings themselves. It a bit like UK insurance companies writing cars off for relatively even easily repaired damage, that's even when the fire brigade have not cut the roof off for dubious reasons. Building 7 was a bonus, far more potentially lucrative to re-develop the entire area but perhaps demolishing it was their biggest mistake, opens the door to the probability that the twin towers were deliberately demolished as well ?

I WAS BROWSING 9/11 DATA WHEN I SPOTTED CAUSE AND EFFECT (#9)

Audio tape of the firefighters on TWO staircases in South Tower 2, and at floor 78, make evident the fires were "two small pockets" and many civilians were alive (some were being brought down). The firefighters called for specific facilities, and their colleagues on the stairs affirmed their imminent arrival at the scene. ALL WAS WELL - TOO WELL.

A radio message from floor 78, telling ANYONE LISTENING that all was well, was followed, only SIX MINUTES LATER, by the 'PULLING' of Tower 2. Some wondered why the South Tower fell first, though hit last. I do not wonder.

Nuff sed.

10

if we assume true then the fact Dr Kelly hasn't had an inquest, evidence is locked away for 70 years and doctors dispute the suicide [where was the knife?] begins to chime with the existence of 'secret state in league with dark forces in the usa'.[jack straw]?

Tail wagging the dog?
Lazy liberalised socialist global policies influencing a modernising conservative?

Is that why the Tories do about as much as Labour towards encouraging the real domestic UK regional economies & helping the British people from being replaced by foreign migrant workers?

Oh, I see - He agrees with Nick & Gordon

WHO IS EXERCISING TOO MUCH CONTROL OVER GOVERNMENT?

Not once since WWII has any political party obtained more than 50% of the vote in the UK. ( Though the Tories got more than 50% in Scotland in 1955.) Parliament is about a minority grabbing absolute power, or coming to an unholy deal with another party to try to grab such power, and MPs betraying the people who voted for them, as well as, usually, the majority who didn't, by doing what they are told by the whips, instead of thinking for themselves. ....I often think it's comical! The updated lyrics on this Iolanthe clip are excellent!



Certainly in the present Parliament, nobody has the moral authority, or the Parliamentary or electoral arithmetic to show anyone else "who's boss", despite what high maintainance (expenses-wise) Nadine might think.

What puzzles me is why govts are allowed so much freedom to exceed their democratic mandates & why the electoral system is so fragile in this regard.

Logically, no elected govt should be permitted to bring in/effect any major new policy/ change/ decision that was not included in their election manifesto - without a full national or regional refendum.

Govt strategists are missing out here on the power of a referendum to an elected govt in winning the next general election if the public are behind a certain policy or requirement.

The other issue is that the opposition should be able to call such referendum if a national govt takes a course of action that is wholly unconstitutional, unfair, high risk, improper etc.

Holding a referendum is expensive but if this is planned into the annual council or other elections in an annual referendum programme then the costs can be managed & the cost of holding a referndum on e.g. the Iraq war would have been 拢20 m - v - the 拢11bn cost to the taxpayer.

Holding a a full programme of national referendum would not only be more democratic - it should save the UK taxpayer a hell of a lot of money in the short, medium & long terms

Nadine Dorries asks the question in the House...' who is the boss?' well, to be honest nobody is the boss...the Tories did not win the general election, they were supported by a LibDem party that renaged on every principle it ever had to go into a grubby coalition with a party most of it's rank and file detest just for high office. The prospect on electoral annihalation does not seem to bother them and only when they are scrabbling around with their P45's will the truth dawn...too late, much too late.....

RE BAHA MOUSSA - DAVE SAYS MOST SQUADDIES EXEMPLARY (#13)

But what is Dave's yardstick? His own 'rakes progress': Bullingdon - fake-face poster - election Liar Flyer - vilification of Nick; or just MP's standards?

This is NOT a man in a position to judge anyone's conduct UNTIL HE JUDGES HIS OWN WITH A FULL MEASURE OF INTEGRITY.

Who indeed Sasha - pray it is not Jingo Dave.

interesting how the medical 'great and the good' are forcing the Dr David Kelly issue....watch out for character assasination squads being deployed around the GMC!!

15.At 21:50 8th Sep 2011, brossen99

Interesting link that in the sense that direct action in the USA means something different in the USA as compared to the UK (anarchists attacking police officers & public buildings).

I would support these guys in the USA but not not the 'typically direct actions' in the UK

@14 I agree - and the Swiss manage perfectly well.

@9 Yes - apart from the TV coverage, an ex student of mine was in a nearby skyscraper and saw the planes crash into the buildings. The questions are as to who planned it, who knew about it, and the very suspicious collapse of the buildings. I had doubts at the time, but suppressed them as "unthinkable".

The following article in Spiegel Online is extremely weaselly. However, what's significant is that it's being published at all. I suspect that the author is positioning himself to join the feeding frenzy if there is a public "paradigm shift".

"SAW THE PLANES (PLURAL) CRASH INTO THE BUILDINGS" (#22)

Permission to be churlish Sasha? Are you still in touch with the student in question?
There can't be many who ACTUALLY SAW both planes, using direct real-time vision.

Those who saw a physical object hit either tower (or both towers), did they see it long enough to identify it as a plane, or might it have been 'plane like' and later confabulated by overwhelming weight of 'evidence' (media and circumstantial)?

Penetration of the towers, and DELAY of pyrotechnics UNTIL EMBEDDED is characteristic of a missile. A plane, even if it achieved penetration to some degree, would create a fireball on the way in due to fuel storage rupture.

In passing, it is more than interesting to note that, while the pentagon strike has all the hallmarks of a missile, it DID release an ENTRY FIREBALL. Almost as if such were needed for the 'trick to work'.

#20 nautonier

The UK trade unions are a key part of our current problems, its always been in their interest to keep the Corporate Nazi's, at least for the last 20 years, playing along with the system. Even so long after I can't help speculating that ASLEF were prepared to hide the probability that a computer glitch in the signalling system cause both the Southall and Ladbroke Grove accidents. I believe the Southall driver was never taken to court ( although they drove him allegedly insane with the threat of going to jail for a significant period ), it was simple to blame the dead Thames train driver at Ladbroke Grove. I don't buy their " signal in the sun " explanation either, and the drivers on the ECML should have known how bad the track was prior to Hatfield.

#20 nautonier

In other words the Unions knew full well just what in a bad state of repair our railways had become under privatisation. It didn't help when they were importing sub standard Korean rail, when we had the best quality rail at Workington, and perhaps the fatal point failure at the dawn of Network Rail was just a con for the stock market parasites to screw more money out of the rail industry. Who know's just how far rail fares would have been inflated if the UK had been forced down the ATP investment, just good look they managed to sell the TPWS system which seems to have eradicated the original problems.

Of course it was easy for the Unions to get inflation busting pay deals, now all the leaders care about is their fat cat pensions. There are also a significant number of people in their fifties who don't really care about keeping their job anymore, almost frothing at the mouth on the prospect of big redundancy payments, which in the process makes the established corporates totally inefficient.

The Unions are key drivers of the false economic growth which has led to a significant increase of the financial apartheid between rich and poor, not sort of the original Edwardian aspirations !

#23 barrie wrote:

'In passing, it is more than interesting to note that, while the pentagon strike has all the hallmarks of a missile, it DID release an ENTRY FIREBALL.'

This video says it was a small Global Hawk drone aircraft and not a missile.
The evidence is compelling.

Richard Perle on QT tonight...

All you need to know about him is contained within this chart....



Tonight was a QT 9/11 special and covered the Israel/Palestine question. Not one person in the (hand picked) audience mentioned The Conspiracy.

Oh the irony of Perle being on tonight's programme.

Nuff said.

GRANTED (#27)

Oh V! I wrote 'hallmarks of a missile' I am well aware of, and not dismissive of, the Global Hawk, but was its payload tantamount to a missile (to get to the E ring) plus an 'entry fireball device' perhaps?

What is the fuel of Global Hawk? The highly cogent black lady, with the child, was adamant no kerosene was apparent.

SEE YOUR PERLE AND RAISE YOU A FOX (#28)

Oh how Mr Fox slid off Iraq! Time and time again. What is the matter with David?

I have concluded Brer Fox is the natural heir to The Straw Man.

And as predicted earlier: a docile audience and a panel of believers in the American State Lie of 9/11.

Bravo 成人论坛. Much of UK still unaware of valid dissent.

@23 Haven't seen him for a few years, Barrie, he still lives in NY. He worked for Goldman Sachs and did see both impacts, but I doubt whether he made a scientific analysis of what he saw. His dad (here) and wife in Queens were frantic on the day, because they couldn't get in touch, and he did need treatment for Post Traumatic stress disorder afterwards.

I don't know about the Pentagon, but I think they were planes in the WTC, even if they were guided. Anything else would leave too many loose ends, like what happened to the real planes? If you are going to have a conspiracy, keep it as simple as possible.

To go off at a tangent, when the WTC was designed: "The World Trade Center's chief structural engineer, Leslie Robertson, had factored in a plane crash, however. For his calculations, he used a Boeing 707, the most popular jetliner at the time. Robertson's conclusion was that if a plane got lost in the fog and crashed into the towers, it would only cause limited damage in terms of property and lives."

RESPECT AS ALWAYS SASHA - BUT (#31)

Old habits die hard. I was successful over decades, as R&D chemist, chemical engineer, plant design and build, and company strategist. After 35 years we dissolved, and sold the site high. Hence my brain is wired to observe, deduce, characterise and apply - profitably. Not a lot of room for being wildly wrong in a small manufacturing business. That doesn't make me right, but it does (I hope) suggest I am not amateurishly complicating matters.

Annoyingly, in addition, I have many years of lay study of human psychology (more observation - deduction - etc) and you will no doubt be aware of recent activity in the field of psychology, relating to just how wrong we are most of the time! (Sound of foot being shot.)

Before we start on dogs & tails, we ought to ask ourselves whether Cameron sold his party a pup when he went into coalition, or was it Clegg who got away with deceiving us all?

I'd argue the coalition agreement amounted to three distinct betrayals and the current unrest on the Tory backbenches reflects only one of them.

Betrayal One: before the last election Clegg's Orange Book cabal took their libertarian policies to the LibDem conference where they were overwhelmingly voted down in favour of a manifesto promising to oppose rapid & deep spending cuts, student fee hikes, etc etc. We know from leaks that Clegg had already decided to ditch a large percentage of the manifesto before the election, so deceiving not only his own party, but also the electorate who were allowed to go & vote for a manifesto he planned to renage on well before polling day.

Betrayal Two: Clegg went into the coalition negotiations with the official LibDem manifesto - and came out with large chunks of the Orange Book written into the agreement - that's why the LibDems are facing electoral armaggedon and Clegg went from rising star to pariah in a few short weeks.

Betrayal Three: Cameron may be economically a conservative, but he's a pragmatist about the EU and quite liberal about social issues like race & gay rights, etc. so he has to contend with his own right wing baying for blood - "the bast*rds" as Major called them - and by enlisting the Orange Book libertarians, he could afford to ignore his own right wing, which has been now been completely marginalised.

So what are Clegg & Cameron planning to do with the power they now hold?

Firstly the LibDem party is toast - their hope for an economic turnaround has all but died and they will pay the price for this, but I foresee a realignment on the centre right as being the ultimate goal for Clegg & Cameron - the Tories ditch their rightwing, Clegg leads the Orange Book cabal across the floor to join a reforged centre right party, so aiming to dominate the centre ground.

The LibDem left joins Labour - the Tory right joins UKIP - and Clegg & Cameron are left sitting pretty able to paint Labour as too leftwing and UKIP as the loony right.

Tory backbenchers are howling at the moon - they have been stitched up good and proper - over the next 18 months the re-alignment gameplan will emerge and I think we can safely say the Tory Party as we have known it will have gone to the dogs.

However there is only one thing that matters - "the economy%

The real message of 9/11 lies not in "who dun it" but in what it says about our dreadful piratical parasitical so-called civilisation.

Put aside the flack and red herrings of conspiracy theory and ask whether the Anglo Saxon capitalist world we live in is something worth saving.

How much do you believe in the virtue of a society whose dreadful image is reflected in the "business" of Parliament or "the news" as brought to you by the MSM or even in the "current affairs" fed to you by Question Time or NN?

.
Question Time 鈥淧aranoid鈥� at Unpredictable Audience Tonight

Tim Marshall on SKY just now highlights what he thinks is one of the key aspects of Tony Blair's latest, quoting (by memory, so not verbatim but paraphased):

'It's no longer right wing vs. left wing, rather a choice between those who believe people should decide for themselves and those who seek to impose strictures and require others to follow them'.

Not always I feel like paying much attention to Mr. Blair, but who across the politico-media infirmament he might have been alluding to I would be interested in seeing delved into further.

26.At 22:51 8th Sep 2011, brossen99 wrote:

Very intereresting indeed - for those of us, like me, who have been called a 'scab' & attacked for crossing a picket line - the negative stuff of the UK TU's means that the TU's & their political donors/donees have a lot too answer for

I feel almost entirely detached from the "coverage" of 9/11.Why do we not ask ourselves WHY this atrocity took place rather than foolishly speculate about which "terrorist" was responsible for it?

WE were responsible for it! We allowed our society to be run by liars and confidence tricksters and organised criminals and pirates and homicidal maniacs.

We disengaged our brains and allowed ourselves to be water boarded with absurd deceptions about us living in a democratic society where we had a "say" in how it was run, when everything that was happening around us should have awoken our suspicions to the contrary.

THE AGE OF PERVERSITY - A BENIGN EPOCH AND AN APE CONFUSED BY LANGUAGE (#33 and #34)

HomSap is born with a phenomenal computing power and no idea of what is going on. He 'advances' by OVERWRITING unconducive notions, NEVER ERASING; driven by a frenzied NEED to gain CONTOL (power) over body, environment and OTHERS. The poor fool samples his environment as a model to strive towards. This gives us mostly dysfunctional individuals. Maturity is, for the majority, an impossible goal. The way that our 'culture' is now configured (perverse) it manifestly mediates AGAINST maturing.

Those who cannot damp down the infant drive to control, become infantile politicians and those who realise they will never control anything - rioters.

Dave and Nick are both in the grip of deep, infantile need. They will snatch toys, poke eyes and bite until they (fail to) get what they (are convinced) they must have.

Those who brought about the perverse events of 9/11, are of similar ilk, and similarly demon-driven.

It (The Age of Perversity) will end in tears.

'10. At 20:06 8th Sep 2011, barriesingleton -
Nuff sed.'

If I may presume to feel that there is not actually 'enough' in all that is being 'said' as this is persisting? And to amplify on Sasha's lead?

In this day and age I have learned to 'never say never', especially when the the edit suite can do so much, and is all too controllable with what it does do. And truly truth is often shown to be more perverse than any fiction conjured, especially when the actions of flawed, venal, petty folk are elevated to that of government or corporate policy.

But I had always thought the hallmarks of successful subterfuge was to minimise complexity, and especially reduce the human component, particularly in numbers involved and more so those aware/complicit.

This seems a very high-cast operation if pre-planned and choreographed.

If it was not planes, one presumes folk got on at airports but did not make it to any known destination, if not the tragic ones of the WTC towers/Pentagon/Field.

I have to wonder where they ended up, even if 'sacrificed' for dark reasons. What goes up needs to come down, and even if covert that takes some doing undetected.

And whatever craft did impact, beyond the confidence that a world of mobile cameras would not be focussed on the 2nd at least, one would need to admire the coordination and accuracy required to get a plane and pre-installed explosives/incendiaries to meet and deliver the desired result in a concealable manner.

If this was to provoke/justify a subsequent reaction, it seems a very high risk way to do it in terms of subsequent investigation and deniability vs. other less convoluted options that would have derived a similar result without resorting to betrayal, mass-murder and treason.

#34 Proletarian wrote:

"The real message of 9/11 lies not in "who dun it" but in what it says about our dreadful piratical parasitical so-called civilisation."

An astute thought/comment and absolutely spot on.

And also wrote:

"How much do you believe in the virtue of a society whose dreadful image is reflected in the "business" of Parliament or "the news" as brought to you by the MSM or even in the "current affairs" fed to you by Question Time or NN?"

One word...apposite!

But what are we to do when so many don't want to see? (what's that saying...none are so blind as those who don't want to see).

You remind me of someone else who used to post on here.

@39 Perhaps if we used your perceptive analysis to face our own personal limitations (rather than smugly criticise the well rewarded but powerless figure heads and scapegoats in our politics)we might be getting somewhere better than this mess we are in now?

35. At 09:08 9th Sep 2011, museV wrote:
Question Time 鈥淧aranoid鈥� at Unpredictable Audience Tonight


And not just the audience...

'28. At 23:33 8th Sep 2011, museV -
Oh the irony of Perle being on tonight's programme.

What brought him there, now?

Not sure irony had much to do with it.

And hence hard to tell what 'the truth' is these days.

'the usual audience selection process has had to be dumped and they have gone round trying to find...

..programs production-company Mentorn declined to comment when Guido put it to them that there had been a significant rejigging of audience members today...'

If true (a concession our objective national broadcast news rarely seems capable of checking beyond 'sources saying'), a few questions need to be asked:

a) Does 'rejigging' actually suggest a culture of rigging to suit?

b) If so, how does this reflect on the 'value' of QT as a 'voice of the country', when it would clearly be shown as no more than a voice of a very limited collection of folk for agenda or ratings propaganda purposes.

@32 I don't know what the truth is Barrie - I just know that the official version doesn't add up. My scepticism is reinforced by the lies which piled up afterwards, like the propaganda linking Saddam with Osama bin Laden: as credible as, say, linking Robespierre with the Jesuits! It's also reinforced by the proven past willingness of certain US political, military and intelligence figures to kill their own and their "friends" in false flag operations.

@33 A good analysis Richard. Much of it is history repeating itself. The National Liberals of the 30s were totally integrated into the Tory party by 1955. However, I don't think many Tory MPs will join UKIP, not yet anyway. Their agricultural supporters depend on EU subsidies for a start. And the Tories have always had a strong socially liberal wing. The two sides detest each other but need each other, sleeping unhappily in the same bed.

@43 I suspect Mentorn`s own best friend would not characterise QT as a popular voice of Britain Junkkmale.

I hardly recognise any of the people on the panels as "authentic" anything but the voice of American capitalism and right wing culture.

If QT was held in a pub they would be jeered out of the building with cries of "rubbish" within minutes!

Remember the QT presented by Huw Edwards after 7/7?What planet was that broadcast from?

The 成人论坛 was effectively privatised and Americanised many years ago,and placed in the hands of the Thatcher-era Del Boys who made their money from asset stripping and flogging off our national wealth and industry and stitching us up by pretending to be the sort of "socialists" who ran "New Labour" so successfully, using exactly the same policies first brought to us by Margaret Thatcher in 1979.

And before anyone starts rabbiting about Baha Musa`s death being the "result of thuggery by rogue elements" let`s just remind ourselves that soldiers are deliberately desensitised and brutalised victims of the sort of people who got us into Iraq in the first place!

#43 JunkkMale

Totally agree.

Remember the equally farcical NN on which Nick Griffin appeared? It was at total set-up from start to finish.

BUT REMEMBER THE 'QUESTION TIME' EPISODE WITH GRIFFIN? (#47)

Dimbleby let his child out to play and put poor Warsi on the 'homosexual tolerance' spike. Seeing her discomfort, he panicked, and took the questioning away from her before she could 'answer'.
On the same programme, The Straw Man made a telling tirade (I forget the subject) with a powerful message of: "methinks he doth protest too much".

All in all, AS A CATLYST IN EXPOSING HYPOCRISY, Griffin had a Grand Day Out.

Whoops! #47 NN should be QT

THOUGHTS OF A UN MIDDLE EAST PEACE ENVOY...

Blair Backs Regime Change In Iran And Syria

Questiontime: Nearly switched off when that hatefilled left wing careerist agitator Tariq Ali was introduced.

I see the 成人论坛 has done another 9/11 conspiracy discrediting hatchet job -as seen on 成人论坛3. This was fronted by an Irish joke blower who from the offset was tasked with dispelling the 'nonsense' about the 9/11 conspiracies with the aid of what appeared to be some students and other young people who are entrenched to one degree or another with the 9/11 conspiracy. Well I've never seen so much effort in retraining the minds of these young people beliefs. The show wouldn't have been so bad if they at least had someone to front it with an objective point of view rather than the Irish joke blower who thought the conspiracy was BS.
I laugh myself at some of the conspiracy chatter I must admit but there is no doubt that the US Got was not just guilty of prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, they were full-on implicated in its execution. And that is the general consensus..why then does the 成人论坛 always go on the attack regarding 9/11 conspiracy?

9/11 is as much a Govt conspiracy as chemotherapy is carcinogenic.

47. At 12:28 9th Sep 2011, museV
45. At 11:24 9th Sep 2011, Proletarian

All remembered, and well.

Except, it seems, by talents whose market rates seem determined by driving ratings via heat rather than light.

Bad enough if just that.

Unforgivable if there is an agenda imposed on top.

And, perhaps, not easily forgotten when the time comes.

40. At 09:40 9th Sep 2011, JunkkMale

Usually get a serve back by now.

No suggestions that might put my questions to bed?

@47

The problem is that Griffin has such a record of distaste for other cultures setting up store in Britain that the 成人论坛 has to sabotage him in case his views take hold and there is serious social unrest.

If this was a democracy I suppose mainstream parties would be free to take a more rational and questioning approach to the subject of immigration without endangering the fragile peace between what we seem to be obliged to call "communities".

My guess is that mainstream politicians and their minders in the Americocentric media realise that it`s their job to impose mass immigration on us and that the BNP are a sort of democratic fig leaf which allows them to fraudulently claim that anyone with concerns about immigration has political representation available to them through being able to vote for Nick Griffin and Co?

@51

Kevin,is it possible that a public broadcaster like the 成人论坛 is simply not free to cast about the internet and introduce into mainstream current affairs debates (or lectures!) every shade of opinion and theory we might wish them to?

I often have to check myself from moaning about 成人论坛 programmes by remembering that behind our politicians and media there are some very powerful interests that do not have freedom of speech and democracy as their prime objectives!

The official UK stance on 9/11 is that it was an attack by radical Islamists. And it`s my honest guess is that this is the most likely explanation and the most understandable one as well.

Of course the very idea that primitive people could achieve such an audacious attack on the HQ of global capitalism enrages people with an investment in believing that America is an omnipotent superpower.

Anyone else notice that the tenth anniversary of 9/11 was a "good day to bury" the battered corpse of Baha Musa?

'54. At 14:46 9th Sep 2011, Proletarian -

The problem is that Griffin has such a record of distaste for other cultures setting up store in Britain that the 成人论坛 has to sabotage him in case his views take hold and there is serious social unrest.'

Not withstanding my distaste for Mr. Griffin and his views, I am rather shocked it is so accepted that our genetically impartial national broadcaster has to, does, or gets away with 'sabotaging' anyone, no matter what their political hue.

Though mightily compromised to be sure, there are other organs of state to address issues as complex and heated as social unrest, but even for them I would hope 'sabotage' is not a legitimate option.

In all sorts of areas, the moment things go covert or things get 'unique', exception-wise, not only do failures seem to be pretty inevitable in execution (no matter how noble in overall intent), but the exposure makes what is bad a lot worse.

I'll go for erring on promoting ideological directions due to over-shared tribal affiliations, at best. If it turns out to be agenda-motivated manipulation that is another kettle of fish.

And if so, proven by more than a Robinson/Crick/Mason 'sources say', I will be vexed.

56. At 15:14 9th Sep 2011, Proletarian wrote:
Anyone else notice that the tenth anniversary of 9/11 was a "good day to bury" the battered corpse of Baha Musa?'

Indeed.

But the technique of getting folk very interested in one thing to avoid another is well established. Even on this thread.

Speaking of which, a perhaps more upbeat aspect of 'events' to share...

?

@57

That`s the main problem with freedom of speech. It`s a social loose canon with an enormous potential for misuse in the hands of malicious people.

Because we have always lived in a rather maternalistic and authoritarian dictatorship (where "doctor knows best" and one is "released" from hospital and politicians lecture us as if we were naughty children) we can forget that true freedom and democracy have anarchy and mob rule as the other side of their political coins!

FREEDOM OF SPEECH? I AM STILL WAITING FOR 'FREEDOM TO BE HEARD' (#60)

I presented my MP (Richard Benyon) with irrefutable, documentary proof of 'lying to gain votes' at the last election. (In a year of asking, no competent mind has declared the document's assertions true.)

I had to press him to get more than 5 words of response. Then I got an illogical non sequitur.

Upon challenging the latter, he declared me "strange and irrational" and says he is now exercising the right to ignore me.*

*To be fair to Mr Benyon, he IS a Westminster Creature, so it WOULD seem "strange and irrational", TO HIM, that I am demanding integrity in my MP.

Nuff sed

@61

I wholeheartedly agree that we are neither completely free to speak out any more than we are likely ever to be heard when we do!

My guess is that is a permanent feature of all human societies,to varying degrees.

You may have noticed that vast amounts of energy go into mishearing,ignoring and abusing us if we don`t think and speak and behave as those who claim to be "in authority" over us in our representative democracy wish us to.

Barrie

It seems that lawyers and human right`s activists run societies like the UK and USA.

So the very profitable medium of "human rights" is constantly invoked by so called minorities and alleged victims,when the truth is that people exercise power not by right but because "they can".

They do it because they either have the power to behave as they wish or the protection of powerful people.

Both Israel and Eire owe their founding and continued existence to the support of powerful Americans.In natural law and common sense they have no more right to independence than the English.

You will never have the ear of your MP because you are a white middle class English man of an ederly and vocal disposition,but you are not a favourite of the ruling class.

If you had been from an Irish travelling family your MP would have been falling over himself to help you.