成人论坛

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Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne: "Ireland is our closest neighbour and it is in Britain's national interest that the Irish economy is successful".
Remember British PM Lord Palmerston (whom Mr Cameron admires). Palmerston said: "We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual and those interests it is our duty to follow."
So there is nothing sentimental about Britons' support for Ireland. Like Palmerston, Cameron is pursuing Britain's interests: the interests of British banks and of British business, and I suppose the interests of Northern Ireland, upon which the effects of an economic implosion could be devastating.
This question was hollered at Brian Lenihan as he ran the media gauntlet: "How much chaos are you going to inflict on the EU before you take the bailout?"
Portugal and Spain are recognised, after Greece and Ireland, as being the weakest links in the eurozone; so, it's mindblowing to consider
1. Mr Constancio, Governor of the Portuguese central bank and
2. Mr Ordonez, Governor of the Spanish central bank -
have both negotiated bond sales and infrastructure investment with the Chinese Government.
Why is it okay for Spain and Portugal to negotiate with China, but not okay for Ireland. (Ireland had a Chinese commitment to buy its bonds after June, 2011, when additional financing would be nededed.)
In fact, China made a commitment to ALL STUPIUD PIIGS that China would buy their bonds, invest, and do anything else necessary to assist these countries to regain their financial footing.
Ireland, like the Spanish and the Portuguese, has a right to avail itself of pro-offered Chinese assistance and decline the ugly loan being forced down her throat.
The bright spot: so far, Irish Gvernment has shown itself admirably resistant to coercion. They have not been helped by opposition leaders who are screaming hysterically for an immediate election. For the moment, the Government has no choice but to await the outcome of Mr Chopra's inspection audit. What Ireland needs most is the kindness of strangers and the support of true friends - such as the Chinese Government

Listening to the Irish Ministers argue their case for the 12.5% Corporation Tax today - far away from the heart of Europe, expensive to get goods to the centre of Europe - I was struck by two things.

Firstly, their main export country is apparently the UK. It is not as if most of their goods are going far.

Secondly, the UK is also an Island far from the heart of Europe.

Why not a 12.5% CGT for Wales or Scotland or Northern Ireland? Or even the North of England? How about Sweden? Finland? Does Cyprus only pay 12.5% CGT?

Is not the argument that instead of Eire raising its CGT that many other EU countries, ourselves included, need to lower ours?

Can you imagine our Regions flourishing under such low CGT? Nah, nor can I.

There was an Irish commentator on the 成人论坛 today - Fivelive I think - who was saying, IIRC, that some Irish politicians basically got very close, allegedly, with property speculators during the boom years.

She told the story of elderly people unable to go out due to lack of walking aids, having to tie them together for fear of them being stolen if they left them unattended, even though Eire was supposedly booming and a model EU country.

At the same time, so she claimed, one Irish Minister allegely spent 500 Euros on being chauffeured by taxi between two Heathrow terminals with allegations of the taxi firm allegedly being well-connected to some kind of Irish 'Taffia'.

Someone pointed me to this Youtube video today of an Eire MP who appears, a few months ago, to have spoken out in the Irish Parliament against what has been going on in Eire.

The language is strong but it was said in Parliament and gives an idea, I think, of the difference perhaps that Paul's blog describes between the political class in Dublin and the feeling of people out there in the real Eire.

When you get the same set of reasons for the UK contribution to the Irish bailout, over and over - common border, 'our good friends', neighbourly action, our biggest trading partner, 6% - then you know you are being lied to.

RBS has a big role in this - and we are paying its debts again. And meanwhile Fred still has his big fat pension + a new job.

If the national broadcaster informed people better, then UK people would be able to have concerted action against all this rubbish and towards a better country. But its still the same pathetic rubbish, parroting what politicians and lobbyists tell them. Lazy and gutless.

Like:
Immgrants are good for the economy..
Free trade is good for everyone...
We have to cut public services to cut the deficit..
The ConDems are implementing an immigration cap..
This hypothetical cap threatens our economic recovery...
Pigs fly....

Apparently RBS is owed 53 billion - is that Euros or Sterling - by people having used RBS money to build and/or buy ponzi bubble property in Eire.

Is this 53 billion the original total sum loaned? Or does the 53 billion take into account the, at least, 50 percent drop in Irish property prices - up to 80 percent drop in some properties - in Eire?

Is the sum the money originally lent or the money owed at now book value? In other words, was it 106 billion or is it 26.5 billion?

Or shall we just make up a new number?

The blunt reality is that there are plenty of boys and girls in Eire who became incredibly rich on the back of the property bubble - and not all of them were foolish enough to hang around until the bubble burst.

Such people have become super-rich on the backs of the poor, the working and the middle classes of the UK who now carry the mortgage debt burden of RBS, Lloyds, and, in part, the Irish banks who are all technically insolvent.

It is not the Irish who should be out there angry on the streets. It is the British.

The fatal blow was struck when Eire stood behind its entire banking structure in September 2008 when the sovereign had tripleA. The legislation must have been passed by a majority then. Positioning on an election after the budget and loans have been passed strikes me as posturing and babble. What then will be left for a new government to do?Others will be running the show.

Lets have another guiness...

'George Osborne told the Commons today that Britain's bilateral loan to help the Irish will require primary legislation.

That has obvious potential for a Conservative, Eurosceptic, back bench rebellion. And presumably the legislation will need to go through within the next few days.'

Michael Crick

Stelzer on NN tonight...ever the consumate libertarian.

Someone else who use to post on here sussed this trotskyite long ago!

Surely you can spot their MO by now?

Excellent line tonight about the use of Ireland as a regulation-lite zone for the recycling of banking and multinational company money, Paul.

And an observation, or is it a question? There have been a number of comments about the high value of corporation tax receipts for the Irish government. But isn't this just down to this recycling. These are not taxes on profits earned in Ireland - which is why they make up such a high proportion of Ireland's revenue. This is just, effectively, their skim from tax avoidance measures from (real) business elsewhere in Europe.

Does that just make Ireland akin to a Mafia state? It's certainly not the way to build a stable economy. So much for Osborne's praises in 2006.

THANKS FOR RAISING THAT GASTROGEORGE (#10)

This is not my field. I thought I must have misheard. It was just one massively damning statement. The programme bowled happily on with no further reference. Then no comment here.

Thanks GG. I still have no idea what's going on, but at least I know I am no madder than I was.

@10 @11

This again raises the question as to whether and when GDP is a suitable measure of economic performance. (Rather like mean or median in statistics.)

This is from the NYT blog Economix:

"The Celtic Tiger鈥檚 impressive reported growth over the past decades was in part based on its aggressive attempts to help major corporations in the United States reduce their tax bills....roughly 20 percent of Irish gross domestic product is actually 鈥減rofit transfers鈥� that raise little tax for Ireland and are owned by foreign companies.....For most nations, gross national product and G.D.P. are nearly identical, but in Ireland they are not.



I would be interested in similar figures for the uk over the last 10 years. Would the foreign loans which helped inflate the UKs own property bubble have counted towards GDP in any way? They certainly helped inflated the value of the pound in those $2.00 days. The history of the last few years has shown that a stong currency does NOT mean a healthy economy.

Also of course the UK currency is supported by financial services - to the detriment of real industry and the regions. Ultimately, 3/4 of the UK would be better off if the City of London disappeared into a black hole!

And finally, a Churchill quote:

鈥淭he Governor shows himself perfectly happy in the spectacle of Britain possessing the finest credit in the world simultaneously with a million and a quarter unemployed鈥�.

鈥淚 would rather see Finance less proud and Industry more content鈥�.

In the end, Churchill was browbeaten by The Bank and the banks to return to gold. It was a decision he greatly regretted.

go on my Irish friends...do a Greece, you have nothing to lose but your ukuleles.....learn from the Greeks and also from yourselves, you can cut back to the bone, till the pips squeak and do know what? They are still not happy so drown in the Guiness and tell 'em all to ..... off!

stevie @ 13

You're not wrong. It seems that everyone else except the Irish wants Ireland to receive the bailout money. So instead of EU/IMF (aka the Germans) issuing demands, it should be Ireland issuing them and if the IMF/EU don't like it tell them to 'Default Off'!