Ian Paisley's comments "were homophobic"
On today's Sunday Sequence, the author of the Presbyterian Church's controversial new report on homophobia described recent comments by the DUP's The Rev Bobbly Liddle also appeared to distance himself from suggestions that his report endorses ex-gay counselling -- even though the wording of the report has given that impression to others. While many would like the Presbyterian Church to move further and faster on the debate about homophobia, the Reverend Richard Murray, a Presbyterian minister in Connor, told us this morning that he believed the report went too far: he would like to see a clearer statement of moral condemnation of homosexuality from the Presbyterian Church. Richard Murray also conceded that he had never himself knowingly pastored a gay person.
The conversation this morning was curious, to say the least. Bobby Liddle impressed me as someone sincerely struggling to do justice to an issue that has rarely been discussed in public within his church and he is clearly anxious to challenge some aspects of homophobia that are, to some extent, institutionalised within Irish Presbyterianism. Nevertheless, he quibbled over something as basic as the term "gay person" (an expression his report copiously avoids) and seemed to want to create safe spaces for gay people within the church while at the same time remaining open to the possible usefulness of "corrective" counselling in some cases. Richard Murray, on the other hand, confidently denied that same-sex orientation existed as a "sexuality"; he contended that there is only one God-given sexuality (namely, heterosexuality) and all other supposed sexualities are merely perversions of heterosexuality. The other guests, Andi Clarke from Belfast Pride and the legal academic Dermot Feenan. tried to engage both of these positions while at times, to my ears, sounding like they didn't quite know where to begin. Two very different worlds appeared to be struggling to make sense of each other in conversation.
You can listen to the full programme here.
Comments
Talking about Homosexuals and Lesbians, we can liken a female minister of a church to a "Lesbian". The Episcopalians have Sodomite Leaders! Woman Leaders! But wait So do the Methodists and some calling themselves Presbyterians and Baptists have joined them!
They say, But there are no men to lead in our denomination we had to use the woman pastors.....
Well to be quite honest, just possibly God is not in your little religious club and the reason you can't find a man to be the pastor is because God is not in it and your little club you refer to as a Church needs to be scraped like every other man made organization that is impostering itself as a Church. If God were in it you would be doing it Gods way.
Having a woman pastor is the same thing as fornication, the woman pastor is causing the people to fornicate on God.
A message so slow and simple and explicit that even a charismatic can understand it. So specific that even a evangelical should be able to figure it out. Send this to you friends who think that a woman can be the Pastor, Bishop or Deacon of a Church. Pastor Slattery Names-Names and shows just who are in error on this issue, and then gives a Bible study on the issue proving the truth that those named are simply in rebellion against God.
So hard questions:
How can you be the husband of one wife and be a woman?
How can you be the preacher and yet remain silent in the Church?
Again this message will either make you real mad or real relieved.
www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=11100691049
Will
ref "further and faster?"
It does seem from your writings that you will only really be satisfied when the PCI drops any and every objections whatsover to homosexuality.
I have yet to see a serious theologian make a serious case for this stance!
Also, has anyone every met a gay person who had a close relationship with their father?
Irvine Bieber research could not find one, which ex-gay Andy Comiskey says is because it is a key causative factor.
Comiskey now runs counselling courses based on his experiences and is married with a family.
I am not wanting to be harsh here, I know many gay people have tried to change and it has seemed impossible for them. I cant relate to the stress osuch people have endured.
But once again, lets have a full debate and lets not pretend that gays never go straight.
Alfred Kinsey found substantial evidence to the contrary and Peter Tatchell knows many how have done the same.
Only last week PA Mag Lochlain on this blog said several former chairs of the NIGRA are now married with children.
If "corrective counselling" is only assisting such people on a path they were going to take anyway then what is the problem?
I am not an expert and will not make dogmatic statements on such matters, but I will challenge you to debate the whole truth and not only subjective parts of it.
PB
PB
What I would like to know is would the Catholic Church allow a transsexual to become a priest and if so, a transsexual in which direction? Does the Catholic Church determine which gender a person is by the morphology of their sex organs or by whether or not they have XX or XY chromosomes? How would they handle a hermaphrodite?
A Message from Andrew Comiskey's website;-
"Thank you for your interest in Desert Stream Ministries. In 1980, my pastor encouraged me to start a healing/support group in the church for those seeking to come out of homosexuality. A former homosexual myself, I developed a series of teachings that helped men and women deal honestly with their brokenness and receive healing. The goal? To become life-giving members of the local church.
"For both my pastor and myself, one thing became clear--this group was a part of the church, an offering to its members and to outsiders in need of healing. The one group became several, and our focus expanded to include heterosexuals who were broken in their sexuality and relationships.
"In 2005, Desert Stream turned 25 years old. Our main goal is to equip lay people in local churches to run any one of a variety of small groups that minister support and healing for the broken. These groups include an 8-week open evangelical format, one for 18-25 year-olds, support for sexual addicts, and Living waters, an in-depth and inclusive discipleship program.
"Whether you are a pastor seeking information or someone in need of help, we hope that our website serves you well."
Andy Comiskey
PB- Since your still peddling Comiskey, I'll repeat what I posted in response to your last entry on the man:
On the ministry of Andrew Comiskey, author of "Pursuing Sexual Wholeness: How Jesus Heals The Homosexual".
I regard this stuff to be archaic, harmful nonsense, and gay people would rightly regard it as offensive.
Anyone can train themselves to pretend for a very long time that they're something they're not (ask Ted Haggard). But nobody is changing sexual orientation, PB. Comiskey himself acknowledges this in page 104 of his book, where he says:
"...by pledging our allegiance to the rule of Christ Jesus, we are delivered. By deliverance I don't mean being rid altogether of homosexual feelings. ... God frees the struggler to rise up and take hold of Jesus in the face of temptation instead of slouching toward sin."
If there are still homosexual feelings then sexual orientations are not reversing themselves; it is merely the case that people are trying to 'put away' same-sex attractions and 'trying' to be something they're plainly not, ie. homosexual. While people like PB may be happy to offer this kind of 'therapy' to gay people (who have nothing wrong with them), the rest of the sane world (excluding people like Comiskey) has come to realise that homosexual orientation happens, that gay people are just gay, and that there is no reasonable or ethical rationale for trying to change that.
**CORRECTION**- oops, 6th paragraph, "...'trying' to be something they're plainly not, ie. heterosexual."